AGD missing, the future of this forum

[HeyJude]

Can someone help me out here? I thought the old thread was moved to the Sandbox. Did it get deleted entirely? Did Mr. Desper delete it? I can't find it...

Yes, very odd. If you look at Mr. Desper's recent posts, it's nowhere to be found:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php?action=profile;u=2;sa=showPosts

Seems to have been locked.

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,24543.0.html

However if it was the subject of the original thread you were after.

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,24547.0.html

Yeah, the one thread links to another thread that isn't viewable, and the second link above is to an *edited* version of the original posts with all of the political content removed.

I guess that's evidence of how the entire thread could have been started without the political content, but either way, to be clear that second link above edits out all of the stuff that caused the kerfuffle in the first place.

[rab2591]

<<I think part of the hangup in that old thread (and again, it doesn't appear to be online anymore for some reason, so I'm doing my best to remember) was that it turned into kind of a semantics thing. I think maybe people were too quick to jump to the political angle. But I think people rightly got a bit hung up on the fact that Mr. Desper didn't want to admit that what he was saying was, as some would tend to read it, somewhat of a "positive" interpretation of something (in this case Trump's rallies) that many saw as so egregiously about so many negative things (people being beat up at rallies, hate and racism being spewed at the rallies, etc.).
It having been well established that many people felt that way about those rallies, I don't think it was out of line to question the potential tastelessness of the analogy. >>

AH... now I see.  So Mr. Desper was trying to compare crowd size and crowd enthusiasm at 1970s Beach Boys concerts to crowd size and crowd enthusiasm at Trump rallies last year.  

And asshats on this board attacked him for making a political post, even though that was clearly the furthest thing from his mind.  

And as a consequence to these misplaced, idiotic attacks on Mr. Desper, this board has now lost the unique historical contributions he made to this forum.

Congratulations to all the children who instigated this.  You must be very proud of yourselves.  

He also equally brought up a comparison to Clinton's more intimate rallies and said something akin to the idea that it was an equally powerful setting as Trump's stadium rallies. Mr. Desper also compared the one day state-to-state aspect of The Beach Boys touring and the all the work that went into those types of events. I saw a guy who was probably watching TV one day and was reminded of an aspect of Beach Boys touring because of this campaign. It was nothing that deserved to be blown out of proportion. 

Mr. Desper became the victim of an incredibly volatile campaign season and in turn we all became victims because we lost the greatest asset this board ever had. Congrats to the children indeed.

[HeyJude]

AH... now I see.  So Mr. Desper was trying to compare crowd size and crowd enthusiasm at 1970s Beach Boys concerts to crowd size and crowd enthusiasm at Trump rallies last year.  

And asshats on this board attacked him for making a political post, even though that was clearly the furthest thing from his mind.  

And as a consequence to these misplaced, idiotic attacks on Mr. Desper, this board has now lost the unique historical contributions he made to this forum.

Congratulations to all the children who instigated this.  You must be very proud of yourselves.  

I dunno, this is just coming across as stirring the s**t back up. I don't recall anyone in that thread calling Steve Desper an "asshat" or "idiotic." It's especially unfair to make these characterizations of other posters when apparently *none* of the original posts in question are still up on this board.

My recollection may or may not be wholly accurate, but my recollection tells me that a characterization that "asshats" and "idiotic" people ran off Steve Desper from this board is unfair and out of line. It just isn't the simple. So my original post bringing the topic up was simply to put it out there that maybe there's more than one side to the "Desper was run off the board" story; and this is especially important since only a weird redacted, edited version of the original posts survives.

I disagree with the idea that politics was "clearly the furthest thing from his mind", and clearly that's something we all have to just agree to disagree about. But it's not as if I was advocating *any* action take place against Desper for making the post. He can post what he wants, and people should be able to respond as they wish. My recollection is that nobody resorted to name calling or attacking Steve Desper. "Your analogy is inappropriate", or some variation of such an argument, is not an attack.

But really, at this point we're just grasping disagreement and acrimony from the jaws of polite board discussion.

[HeyJude]

<<I think part of the hangup in that old thread (and again, it doesn't appear to be online anymore for some reason, so I'm doing my best to remember) was that it turned into kind of a semantics thing. I think maybe people were too quick to jump to the political angle. But I think people rightly got a bit hung up on the fact that Mr. Desper didn't want to admit that what he was saying was, as some would tend to read it, somewhat of a "positive" interpretation of something (in this case Trump's rallies) that many saw as so egregiously about so many negative things (people being beat up at rallies, hate and racism being spewed at the rallies, etc.).
It having been well established that many people felt that way about those rallies, I don't think it was out of line to question the potential tastelessness of the analogy. >>

AH... now I see.  So Mr. Desper was trying to compare crowd size and crowd enthusiasm at 1970s Beach Boys concerts to crowd size and crowd enthusiasm at Trump rallies last year.  

And asshats on this board attacked him for making a political post, even though that was clearly the furthest thing from his mind.  

And as a consequence to these misplaced, idiotic attacks on Mr. Desper, this board has now lost the unique historical contributions he made to this forum.

Congratulations to all the children who instigated this.  You must be very proud of yourselves.  

He also equally brought up a comparison to Clinton's more intimate rallies and said something akin to the idea that it was an equally powerful setting as Trump's stadium rallies. Mr. Desper also compared the one day state-to-state aspect of The Beach Boys touring and the all the work that went into those types of events. I saw a guy who was probably watching TV one day and was reminded of an aspect of Beach Boys touring because of this campaign. It was nothing that deserved to be blown out of proportion.  

Mr. Desper became the victim of an incredibly volatile campaign season and in turn we all became victims because we lost the greatest asset this board ever had. Congrats to the children indeed.

At this point it's quickly belaboring the issue, but unless I could see the original posts/thread, I'm not sure how to judge the comments about other politicians or political campaigns. My recollection is that the initial comments only concerned Trump.

I also recall other anecdotal evidence that people found in other older posts concerning political comments that seemed to inform the *introduction* of a Trump analogy such that I felt there *was* a connection between political leanings and citing Trump's rallies in a measured favorable light. I recall coming away after weighing all of the information feeling it wasn't an innocuous observation that could have just as easily been made about numerous other things. Again, all opinions that people can agree or disagree with.

But again, when the discussion got bogged down into the semantics of what was "meant" versus how people interpreted the comments, there was no way to not make it "Sandbox" material at that stage.

[rab2591]

The initial post did have a section on Clinton (it was the only post I read on the issue so I think I remember it fairly well). I specifically remember him making a comparison between Clinton's more down-to-earth rallies and The Beach Boys more intimate performance settings. And I bring that up because I think people looked past that point In order to assume the worst about Mr. Desper's post. If there are prior posts of his that suggest he was making subtle political nods at a Trump presidency prior to this entanglement I could understand people's irritation. Although I still think that given how much information Mr. Desper added to this forum it's a severe and unesessary loss for this community.

[Jay]

The initial comments were noting the correlation of the touring schedule in the 70's, and a political rally. That the particular rally in question was for trump is just a coincidence. That being said, at one point Mr. Desper at one point compared Brian to trump, which was a big mistake, and things turned ugly very quickly.

[HeyJude]

The initial post did have a section on Clinton (it was the only post I read on the issue so I think I remember it fairly well). I specifically remember him making a comparison between Clinton's more down-to-earth rallies and The Beach Boys more intimate performance settings. And I bring that up because I think people looked past that point In order to assume the worst about Mr. Desper's post. If there are prior posts of his that suggest he was making subtle political nods at a Trump presidency prior to this entanglement I could understand people's irritation. Although I still think that given how much information Mr. Desper added to this forum it's a severe and unesessary loss for this community.

I would agree it's a severe and unnecessary loss, which is why I don't think anybody was calling for him to leave the board due to his post.

As for the Clinton comment, that might be jogging my memory, and the comparison to Clinton's rallies *may* have actually played into the perception of pumping up the admirable nature of Trump's rallies. (e.g. Clinton's rallies are more sparsely attended and perhaps a comparison to the Beach Boys' downturn in popularity during certain points?).

Again, especially back then, trying to parse the meaning and impact of both candidates' rallies was a super hot button topic. It didn't surprise me in the least that people took umbrage. Yes, it required some level of parsing and interpretation to get to outrage, but not *that* much. And I maintain the overtones were not innocuous to the point of expressing utter incredulity as to why people saw political overtones in the commentary.

And again, I go back to the fact that nobody was calling for *any* action against Steve Desper. Some folks took issue with the analogy, and I don't think there was anything wrong with that. I do think personally it was an ill-advised analogy given the *content* of the rallies to which he seemed to feel elicited a comparison.

As for prior posts, I think people rightly took issue (and drew a line from) stuff like this:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,22757.0.html

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,22757.msg538726.html#msg538726

More examples of claiming that something (a "funny" parody in this case) was not meant to be political at all when it *totally* is in the opinion of many. Agree or disagree, find it funny or not funny, but it's totally political and *obviously* potentially offensive.

[HeyJude]

The initial comments were noting the correlation of the touring schedule in the 70's, and a political rally. That the particular rally in question was for trump is just a coincidence. That being said, at one point Mr. Desper at one point compared Brian to trump, which was a big mistake, and things turned ugly very quickly.

The comparison was not coincidental. In both cases, my takeaway was that both things (Trump's rallies and the Beach Boys touring setup) were impressive and/or to be admired.

Some people found the content of the rallies (as opposed to the content of a Beach Boys show) *so* objectionable that trying to extract all of the politics from it and still find something impressive about it to be wholly impossible and inappropriate. I have mixed feelings about it myself, but I certainly don't think the umbrage people took because of this was unwarranted.

To some, it was akin to posting "That footage of the Beach Boys' 1976 Anaheim Stadium concert really brings to mind the Nuremberg Rallies." Just because the size of the crowd or the logistical setup of the road crew might be similar, some might find the underlying *thing* being compared very, very inappropriate.

[Jay]

I think I remember a few people calling for Desper to be banned, or at least given a "time out". I do agree that it was a very unnecessary reaction to something that didn't even need to be an issue.

[rab2591]

@HeyJude and Jay, thank you both for the links/clarification on the issue.

[HeyJude]

I think I remember a few people calling for Desper to be banned, or at least given a "time out". I do agree that it was a very unnecessary reaction to something that didn't even need to be an issue.

Any calls for a ban would be uncalled for based on what I remember of that thread.

My recollection is that it was something more like a "Dude, if you'd admit the post had some political overtones, we could move on" sort of vibe. At least, that's where I recall my feelings were at.

[Jay]

That's the thing though. It was never a "political" thread. It was comparing the behind the scenes action between a 1970's concert and a rally. It was more a "logistical" point, than anything political. People just lost their sh*t because the name trump happened to be used.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

That's the thing though. It was never a "political" thread. It was comparing the behind the scenes action between a 1970's concert and a rally. It was more a "logistical" point, than anything political. People just lost their sh*t because the name trump happened to be used.

I'm more inclined to side with Hey Jude's Nuremberg rallies point. Mr. Desper is smart enough to have anticipated some of the responses he received but this is not to say that some of the comments couldn't have also been somewhat curbed knowing that response that they might have received.

[RangeRoverA1]

Again, especially back then, trying to parse the meaning and impact of both candidates' rallies was a super hot button topic. It didn't surprise me in the least that people took umbrage. Yes, it required some level of parsing and interpretation to get to outrage, but not *that* much. And I maintain the overtones were not innocuous to the point of expressing utter incredulity as to why people saw political overtones in the commentary.

And again, I go back to the fact that nobody was calling for *any* action against Steve Desper. Some folks took issue with the analogy, and I don't think there was anything wrong with that. I do think personally it was an ill-advised analogy given the *content* of the rallies to which he seemed to feel elicited a comparison.

As for prior posts, I think people rightly took issue (and drew a line from) stuff like this:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,22757.0.html

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,22757.msg538726.html#msg538726

More examples of claiming that something (a "funny" parody in this case) was not meant to be political at all when it *totally* is in the opinion of many. Agree or disagree, find it funny or not funny, but it's totally political and *obviously* potentially offensive.

Wouldn't say better. I think nobody denies Mr. Desper is severe loss. But this board isn't about just "insiders". What mere BBs fans say does & should count too. It's not meant as offense but they felt, from their p.o.v., it was unpleasant comparison. Sure, they should've stayed objective & try to shut down gut reaction but in this case & amid the Trump events etc., it could be the last straw to these people, it's been building.

[18thofMay]

Make The Smiley Smile Message Board Great Again.....
Like America it's already great!

[kreen]

Desper was dog-piled because he committed the cardinal sin of making a reference to Republican candidate Donald Trump without going out of his way to state how appalled he was at his candidacy. That was enough to trigger some people here.

As for AGD, if he wants to come back, I say let him back on a probatory basis. If he acts like a jerk again then re-ban him.

[guitarfool2002]

As for AGD, if he wants to come back, I say let him back on a probatory basis. If he acts like a jerk again then re-ban him.

I guess you missed the original answers to this, in case you did, let me repost them:

After seeing all you saw, you want Doe back? f*** that. No one who brings someone's kids into their personal grudges or issues is welcome here.

Doe was not only a major contributor, but he was a BB scholar with incredible expertise. Sure he's an eccentric and can be very acerbic, but when you're dealing with somebody who contributes so much and is basically irreplaceable, you gotta give them more leeway, otherwise you're just hurting your own forum.

He lied, slandered people, and used people's family and kids as punchlines of insults and subjects of slander. You approve of that? You know where to find him and his bullshit.

It's a lost cause for you to keep bringing this up. I don't care what he was or how great you think he was, he is not coming back. Ever. Period.

Reasons listed above and elsewhere.

[guitarfool2002]

No one pulls the sh*t he did and gets a welcome back or free pass.

[The LEGENDARY OSD]

Make The Smiley Smile Message Board Great Again.....
Like America it's already great!

I'll drink to that! It is also been made even greater with the permanent banning of the agdster. Mods, y'done good!

[rab2591]

As for AGD, if he wants to come back, I say let him back on a probatory basis. If he acts like a jerk again then re-ban him.

I'm pretty sure he was banned a couple times here already anyways. And yet again, the man publicly (and childishly) mouthed off about the personal life of one of the moderators here - I really doubt the moderators want that kind of petulance pervading this board again, understandably.

Anyone who misses Andrew's knowledge and high standards for research can easily find him on that other board. For the rest of us, who want to reside on a board free of people with a history of juvenile gossip and callow board behavior, we'll probably be happy staying here where the moderators did a fine job cleaning up the filth. Truly this place has been pretty much free of any real hassles for months, and it's been wonderful. 

[guitarfool2002]

Re: Stephen Desper. I hope he comes back. I hated to see him leave, or made to feel unwelcome enough or ganged up on enough to leave, or go on hiatus (hopefully that's the case and he'll return).

There is a time and a place for everything, but in this case my personal opinion is that certain topics should have been left alone and certain posts gone unsent. Is it because he is Stephen Desper, the guy who pressed record when Brian recorded Til I Die and created the drum sound on Do It Again, among other highlights and amazing work on his resume? I'll say it - yes. It is, that's just how I feel.

Let me address something else, specifically the issue of moderation. I take it into consideration that since so much bullshit went down behind the scenes, board members not involved would not have the knowledge to make judgements or form full opinions on certain issues (and people). But it was nasty, dirty, ugly sh*t being done by - ironically and hypocritically - many if not most of the same people who had been breaking the rules and joining in these various campaigns to shape the board however they saw fit...or however they were told. It ended. Those people in a few cases were outed as liars who had been breaking rules but doing so in ways no one would see, classic Jekyll & Hyde two-faced behavior.

So the reception for ideas that originated with those people who have since been banned or left is pretty cold, if not frozen in ice at this point. What they wanted to do is not the impression that was put out publicly, and maybe some of those who were in the information chain when the campaigns and ideas to start a new board to diminish and ruin this one were ongoing. Again, I know, we know who was behind it.

I hope Desper decides to come back. I also hope that in any future scenarios like what happened with his last posts here of record about the political rallies and his work on similar BB's concert setups from the 70's, more thought is given before posting, and some things are allowed to slide or be ignored entirely in light of everything involved.

The mods should not have to monitor good judgement or judgement calls in general. Some cases it truly is better just to ignore and walk away, especially where the battle being picked is on the surface and not at the core of the posts or issues.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

As for AGD, if he wants to come back, I say let him back on a probatory basis. If he acts like a jerk again then re-ban him.

I'm pretty sure he was banned a couple times here already anyways. And yet again, the man publicly (and childishly) mouthed off about the personal life of one of the moderators here - I really doubt the moderators want that kind of petulance pervading this board again, understandably.

Anyone who misses Andrew's knowledge and high standards for research can easily find him on that other board. For the rest of us, who want to reside on a board free of people with a history of juvenile gossip and callow board behavior, we'll probably be happy staying here where the moderators did a fine job cleaning up the filth. Truly this place has been pretty much free of any real hassles for months, and it's been wonderful. 

It was his 4th time

[mike moseley]

I thought the way Doe harangued Carol Kaye was ridiculous (whether she had given incorrect info or not).

[HeyJude]

That's the thing though. It was never a "political" thread. It was comparing the behind the scenes action between a 1970's concert and a rally. It was more a "logistical" point, than anything political. People just lost their sh*t because the name trump happened to be used.

And your first sentence is the main reason the thread was acrimonious, because even after all this postmortem now, you're still not seeing how people *did* see it as a political thread. For some, invoking Trump's name and some level of admiration for his rallies, given the content of those rallies, is more than political enough. It was for that *specific* reason that some people had a problem.

I think suggesting that people "lost their sh*t" just because the name appeared is a grossly unfair oversimplification.

Was the problem that people "can't handle" seeing Trump's name? Or seeing Trump touted in any way? I think the answer is no, because "handling" something means you can still take issue with it. Nevertheless, it's clear the person who couldn't "handle" people disagreeing was the person who apparently left the board.

I agree that dog piling on someone is unfortunate, even if done unknowingly and done with strong moral/ethical convictions. I honestly can't say how much of a "dog pile" it was because the thread is gone. But my recollection again is that an *extremely minimal* acknowledgement that the post was what it was, rather than total incredulity, would have neutralized the critics/dog pile.

[HeyJude]

Desper was dog-piled because he committed the cardinal sin of making a reference to Republican candidate Donald Trump without going out of his way to state how appalled he was at his candidacy. That was enough to trigger some people here.

As for AGD, if he wants to come back, I say let him back on a probatory basis. If he acts like a jerk again then re-ban him.

My recollection is that nobody was asking Desper to repudiate Trump so much as simply wanting an acknowledgment that the *particular* point of comparison he chose (Trump's rallies) was justifiably found by many to be such an objectionable "thing" as to render the entire point of the post moot in some sense. (See the imperfect Nuremberg analogy in a post above).

It was certainly a moral/ethical personal opinion for those that saw the comparison as wholly inappropriate, and clearly there were also some who chose to take a totally clinical view of the thread and didn't care how heinous of a thing Desper was comparing the Beach Boys to, so long as some interesting BB discussion ensued. I can usually put on a pretty clinical, analytical hat, but I'm not prepared for "interesting Beach Boys insider discussion" to take place *at any cost*, including what at least some clearly feel is an outrageous, inappropriate analogy being drawn to the band.

But there have been other times on the "on topic" section of this board where people have voiced their opinions that something is morally/ethically questionable to them. I didn't see a problem with people voicing that opinion back then. And, again, I think almost everybody if not everybody was stopping well short of calling for any suspension or ban or any action to take place because of it. It was just a disagreement, and people who love the Beach Boys shouldn't have to feel they can't speak up about an inappropriate analogy just because the guy making it was an associate of the band.