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607745 Posts in 24582 Topics by 3503 Members - Latest Member: dannysamuel May 23, 2017, 05:49:41 AM
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Author Topic: Drugs: Heroes or Villains?  (Read 3560 times)
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« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2017, 07:35:24 PM »

The 1964 breakdown showed the issues existed before drugs.

Yeah, a lot of things seemed to show issues did exist. At least emotional issues. Obviously his father hitting him, and as he said in the Beautiful Dreamer documentary he'd walk around school with a hand over his chest so no one would hit him.

But it's really hard to say what actions or events had to do with mental illness and what had to do with just strong emotions. It was obvious as hell that he was a deeply insecure dude for alotta reasons: his fathers abuse, trying to live up to his fathers expectations and shake off his fathers shadow, his natural lack of macho-ness and his not so great way with girls (apparently, unless Mike was talking out of his Lovehole, but it makes sense), his need to be the best, his inner conflicted feelings of wanting things his way but his fear of offending anybody and of confrontation in general, etc. I mean we know he was mentally ill but it's hard to tell where and when that illness showed itself as opposed to being just emotional stuff.

It's so sad. He really didn't deserve it (not that anybody does).
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"In my opinion it makes Pet Sounds stink - that's how good it is!" - Dennis Wilson

"Our records were really very good. We're very talented and we know how to do what we do." - Carl Wilson

"The thing is, I'm just pooping along. Some people buzz along. I poop along. I just can't help it; that's the way I am. I'm just a pooper." - Brian Wilson
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« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2017, 07:45:51 PM »

The 1964 breakdown showed the issues existed before drugs.

Yeah. I know the Love and Mercy movie is exactly a movie where artistic liberties were taken. But the portrayal of his descent into mental illness seems to be quite on par with what was written in Carlin's book (which is based on eye-witness interviews). Even Van Dyke talks about the rampant drug use and Brian's increasing weirdness during that time.

His paranoia about fires starting all over LA after his fire session is a huge red flag about his mental illness....I can only imagine that the drugs played a huge part in that paranoia...I mean, would anyone here recommend that those with mental illness put a hotboxing tent in their living room?

@Aduit Child; Timothy White wrote a great book called 'The Nearest Faraway Place' and in it he traces the family lineage and I do believe talks about the history of mental illness in Brian's family. From what I recall he had a relative with manic depressive/bipolar disorder (or at least he showed obvious signs of it). And even his father showed signs of depression (after he got fired by the band he stayed in bed for a long time due to depression). So I think a family history contributed a lot to his own mental health problems, as well as his problems at home. You're absolutely right: he didn't deserve it at all.
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« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2017, 07:55:39 PM »

@Aduit Child; Timothy White wrote a great book called 'The Nearest Faraway Place' and in it he traces the family lineage and I do believe talks about the history of mental illness in Brian's family. From what I recall he had a relative with manic depressive/bipolar disorder (or at least he showed obvious signs of it). And even his father showed signs of depression (after he got fired by the band he stayed in bed for a long time due to depression). So I think a family history contributed a lot to his own mental health problems, as well as his problems at home. You're absolutely right: he didn't deserve it at all.

I've never heard of this book, thanks for telling me. I'd heard about Brian's dad in the I Just Wasn't Made For These Times documentary (and a 1976 Rolling Stone article I think maybe Audree mentioned it that early). And I'd read about one of his relatives in Catch a Wave. I'll definitely get a copy.

The really sad thing about Brian is I feel that a lot of the same things that helped him when he was good hurt him badly when he wasn't. Drugs are the obvious thing, but like his own sensitivity and his childlike pure belief in things. When he felt confident and on top of himself then that sensitivity helped him write all those perfect songs. But when his illness kicked in (maybe it was cause of the illness too) he was too affected by emotion to really do anything. And that belief made him able to make something like 'Fire', which is so heavy; it sounds like an actual fire. But he couldn't see that his paranoia was unjustified because he actually believed in it all. His innocence I think kept him from realizing some of his problems when he could've used that knowledge.
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« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2017, 08:40:13 PM »

@Aduit Child; Timothy White wrote a great book called 'The Nearest Faraway Place' and in it he traces the family lineage and I do believe talks about the history of mental illness in Brian's family. From what I recall he had a relative with manic depressive/bipolar disorder (or at least he showed obvious signs of it). And even his father showed signs of depression (after he got fired by the band he stayed in bed for a long time due to depression). So I think a family history contributed a lot to his own mental health problems, as well as his problems at home. You're absolutely right: he didn't deserve it at all.

I've never heard of this book, thanks for telling me. I'd heard about Brian's dad in the I Just Wasn't Made For These Times documentary (and a 1976 Rolling Stone article I think maybe Audree mentioned it that early). And I'd read about one of his relatives in Catch a Wave. I'll definitely get a copy.

The really sad thing about Brian is I feel that a lot of the same things that helped him when he was good hurt him badly when he wasn't. Drugs are the obvious thing, but like his own sensitivity and his childlike pure belief in things. When he felt confident and on top of himself then that sensitivity helped him write all those perfect songs. But when his illness kicked in (maybe it was cause of the illness too) he was too affected by emotion to really do anything. And that belief made him able to make something like 'Fire', which is so heavy; it sounds like an actual fire. But he couldn't see that his paranoia was unjustified because he actually believed in it all. His innocence I think kept him from realizing some of his problems when he could've used that knowledge.

It's a good read, it is tedious especially in the beginning - the focus is all on the history of California (and partially the lineage of Brian Wilson's family). But if you get through that part you are rewarded with a rich story about the Beach Boys which has a firm backdrop of California history...which in turn really makes sense of their surf/love/California music.

And I totally agree with your second paragraph; that's a perspective I never really thought of before. And with that innocence in mind (if that was the case for Brian) it makes you wonder just how scared he was about his own paranoia during that time. Right now we have so many resources we can look up in the palm of our hand: "Ok Google, my heart is racing, I have chest chest pain, extreme fear, and my hands are going numb." "Sounds like a panic attack". Whereas in Brian's day I'm sure it wasn't easy to research these issues let alone admit to anyone the full depths of what was happening to him.

You take any given 5 years of that guy's life between 1960 and 1990 and if it were any person besides Brian Wilson you'd scarcely believe any of those events happened to one person. You take the whole of those 30 years and it's a wonder he made it through alive.
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« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2017, 08:57:53 PM »

So if the Beatles never did LSD, would they still have been singing "I Wanna Hold Your Hand" in 1967? If Brian never did acid or pot, would he still be singing "Surfin USA"? Oh wait, he is.
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« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2017, 09:00:39 PM »

And I totally agree with your second paragraph; that's a perspective I never really thought of before. And with that innocence in mind (if that was the case for Brian) it makes you wonder just how scared he was about his own paranoia during that time. Right now we have so many resources we can look up in the palm of our hand: "Ok Google, my heart is racing, I have chest chest pain, extreme fear, and my hands are going numb." "Sounds like a panic attack". Whereas in Brian's day I'm sure it wasn't easy to research these issues let alone admit to anyone the full depths of what was happening to him.

You take any given 5 years of that guy's life between 1960 and 1990 and if it were any person besides Brian Wilson you'd scarcely believe any of those events happened to one person. You take the whole of those 30 years and it's a wonder he made it through alive.

It blows my mind when people complain that Brian's not seeming "100%" or that he seems lacking somehow these days. Like look what he went through! It's amazing he could make Love You in 1976, let alone be touring regularly today after Love You when he slipped into a deeper depression possibly because he had gotten help and nothing had happened and the Boys yet again said "No Brian, we don't like your music" and left him to just rot at the piano while his mind drifted even further out while he smoked like a chimney and a half and ballooned again to 300/350 lbs (however much) and then spent 10 years with Landy extremely medicated and living in a twilight zone episode where his Dad comes back in the form of some guy who's both in love with Brian (and himself) yet doesn't actually give a sh!t about what Brian wants and needs. Eugene literally took a person who already suffered from psychosis (at least someone who had it in him), and trapped him in a fantasy. That sounds like a nightmare beyond comprehension. Now Brian might not be as smart as he used to be and his childlike dependency on others might be stronger than any more useful independent emotions, but he was certainly smart enough to know what was happening to him on some level. There's no way he didn't know it. Imagine that.

So anyone expecting him to be 100% is... I don't like insulting others with words like this, but that kind of is delusional. I just hope Brian's happy. I hope he's accepted his past and present as much as he's capable of.

He was totally naive. I mean, that's what makes his work so powerful and endearing. I think Eugene Landy was vaguely right when he said Brian didn't have a sense of humor. He did in a way, but he so sincerely believed in everything. He was completely uncynical. That kind of quality is really rare in people, especially adults. He was just a kid. "A children's song.... their song is love and the children know the way..." Brian was that child. And he wanted everyone else to realize the child in themselves, and if they were older than to try to reignite that truth.

Sorry that whole long thing was kinda rambly, but I think it gets my point across somehow.

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"The thing is, I'm just pooping along. Some people buzz along. I poop along. I just can't help it; that's the way I am. I'm just a pooper." - Brian Wilson
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« Reply #31 on: January 03, 2017, 09:03:11 PM »

So if the Beatles never did LSD, would they still have been singing "I Wanna Hold Your Hand" in 1967?

Or more importantly, would Ringo have written 'Octopus's Garden'?
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"The thing is, I'm just pooping along. Some people buzz along. I poop along. I just can't help it; that's the way I am. I'm just a pooper." - Brian Wilson
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« Reply #32 on: January 03, 2017, 09:27:08 PM »

And I totally agree with your second paragraph; that's a perspective I never really thought of before. And with that innocence in mind (if that was the case for Brian) it makes you wonder just how scared he was about his own paranoia during that time. Right now we have so many resources we can look up in the palm of our hand: "Ok Google, my heart is racing, I have chest chest pain, extreme fear, and my hands are going numb." "Sounds like a panic attack". Whereas in Brian's day I'm sure it wasn't easy to research these issues let alone admit to anyone the full depths of what was happening to him.

You take any given 5 years of that guy's life between 1960 and 1990 and if it were any person besides Brian Wilson you'd scarcely believe any of those events happened to one person. You take the whole of those 30 years and it's a wonder he made it through alive.

It blows my mind when people complain that Brian's not seeming "100%" or that he seems lacking somehow these days. Like look what he went through! It's amazing he could make Love You in 1976, let alone be touring regularly today after Love You when he slipped into a deeper depression possibly because he had gotten help and nothing had happened and the Boys yet again said "No Brian, we don't like your music" and left him to just rot at the piano while his mind drifted even further out while he smoked like a chimney and a half and ballooned again to 300/350 lbs (however much) and then spent 10 years with Landy extremely medicated and living in a twilight zone episode where his Dad comes back in the form of some guy who's both in love with Brian (and himself) yet doesn't actually give a sh!t about what Brian wants and needs. Eugene literally took a person who already suffered from psychosis (at least someone who had it in him), and trapped him in a fantasy. That sounds like a nightmare beyond comprehension. Now Brian might not be as smart as he used to be and his childlike dependency on others might be stronger than any more useful independent emotions, but he was certainly smart enough to know what was happening to him on some level. There's no way he didn't know it. Imagine that.

So anyone expecting him to be 100% is... I don't like insulting others with words like this, but that kind of is delusional. I just hope Brian's happy. I hope he's accepted his past and present as much as he's capable of.

He was totally naive. I mean, that's what makes his work so powerful and endearing. I think Eugene Landy was vaguely right when he said Brian didn't have a sense of humor. He did in a way, but he so sincerely believed in everything. He was completely uncynical. That kind of quality is really rare in people, especially adults. He was just a kid. "A children's song.... their song is love and the children know the way..." Brian was that child. And he wanted everyone else to realize the child in themselves, and if they were older than to try to reignite that truth.

Sorry that whole long thing was kinda rambly, but I think it gets my point across somehow.

Don't apologize at all! It's a great post. One thing that people forget too is that Brian is getting older, and his back isn't in the best of shape...so of course he isn't going to look 100% (and all of that on top of what you said about his history with Landy and prior abuses). The people who actually know Brian, those who spend time around him these days, say that he is usually always aware of what's going on around him....and I'm sure it's easier for him to be more quiet and vigilant in these latter years.
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« Reply #33 on: January 03, 2017, 09:32:24 PM »

One thing that people forget too is that Brian is getting older, and his back isn't in the best of shape...so of course he isn't going to look 100% (and all of that on top of what you said about his history with Landy and prior abuses). The people who actually know Brian, those who spend time around him these days, say that he is usually always aware of what's going on around him....and I'm sure it's easier for him to be more quiet and vigilant in these latter years.

I can't imagine them saying anything other than that, but I believe them. That's good to hear. I think he likes being old to an extent. Now he doesn't have to do anything haha. He probably spent a lot of time 1968 on wishing he was old.
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"Our records were really very good. We're very talented and we know how to do what we do." - Carl Wilson

"The thing is, I'm just pooping along. Some people buzz along. I poop along. I just can't help it; that's the way I am. I'm just a pooper." - Brian Wilson
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« Reply #34 on: January 03, 2017, 09:43:00 PM »

One thing that people forget too is that Brian is getting older, and his back isn't in the best of shape...so of course he isn't going to look 100% (and all of that on top of what you said about his history with Landy and prior abuses). The people who actually know Brian, those who spend time around him these days, say that he is usually always aware of what's going on around him....and I'm sure it's easier for him to be more quiet and vigilant in these latter years.

I can't imagine them saying anything other than that, but I believe them. That's good to hear. I think he likes being old to an extent. Now he doesn't have to do anything haha. He probably spent a lot of time 1968 on wishing he was old.

Whenever I think of Brian getting old I think of the song 'When I Grow Up To Be A Man' with the words of the outro "Won't last forever, it's kinda sad". I think Brian likes that his crazier years are behind him, but I'm sure he, like anyone else, would love to have a few more lifetimes to work on the things that he loves.

Also, to clarify my comment about Brian usually always being aware: from what I recall (I've got a terrible memory) he's usually always aware of everything going on around him...it's probably what makes him such a great producer in the booth - he is constantly aware of every note of music coming through the speakers.
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« Reply #35 on: January 03, 2017, 09:52:39 PM »

Whenever I think of Brian getting old I think of the song 'When I Grow Up To Be A Man' with the words of the outro "Won't last forever, it's kinda sad". I think Brian likes that his crazier years are behind him, but I'm sure he, like anyone else, would love to have a few more lifetimes to work on the things that he loves.

Also, to clarify my comment about Brian usually always being aware: from what I recall (I've got a terrible memory) he's usually always aware of everything going on around him...it's probably what makes him such a great producer in the booth - he is constantly aware of every note of music coming through the speakers.

It's funny, he spent probably most of his life scared sh!tless of growing up, and now that he's old he's probably pretty happy with it. That probably contradicts my last comment about how he wanted to be old, but I think it was the process of growing up that scared him. The pain is what scared him, the having to actually go through it. I'm sure he wouldn't have minded just pressing a magic button to zoom past all those years of growing up.

I'm always skeptical about what people close to Brian say to the public about his well being or whatever but I'm sure he's pretty aware. If he's still as aware as he was in the 60s then darn. Maybe the musicians just aren't working on as complicated of stuff haha.
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« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2017, 04:08:03 AM »

The science is not certain. Of course if there's an uncertain likelihood, people will advise against it.
http://www.psychiatryadvisor.com/schizophrenia-and-psychoses/cannabis-and-schizophrenia-trigger-or-treatment/article/399675/
This cites several sources:
http://medicalmarijuana.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=000220

Regarding Brian Wilson's naÔvetť, sometimes it seems he's naive like a fox.
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« Reply #37 on: January 04, 2017, 05:11:39 AM »

Villains. Period.
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« Reply #38 on: January 04, 2017, 06:21:23 AM »

The science is not certain. Of course if there's an uncertain likelihood, people will advise against it.
http://www.psychiatryadvisor.com/schizophrenia-and-psychoses/cannabis-and-schizophrenia-trigger-or-treatment/article/399675/
This cites several sources:
http://medicalmarijuana.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=000220

Regarding Brian Wilson's naÔvetť, sometimes it seems he's naive like a fox.

Emily, I really don't think you're understanding what I'm saying. ^Those are both fascinating reads btw. But these are proving what we both already agree on (as I said from the beginning: the evidence is varied on the chicken and egg argument).

My point has been that it is certain that people who already have an illness of that kind should not use marijuana...as it can exacerbate the symptoms. Even in your own citations above there were doctors (who were also adamant that marijuana use does not cause psychosis) who stated specifically that "the drug may modify the course of an already established illness." (keeping in mind that Brian was displaying signs of an already established illness prior to taking drugs). This doctor writes just prior: "Cannabis use can lead to a range of short-lived symptoms such as de-personalisation, de-realisation, a feeling of loss of control, fear of dying, irrational panic and paranoid ideas...". Another doctor says: "There have been reports of psychotic 'breakdowns' occurring with rare frequency after marijuana has been smoked, but the causal relationship is in question. The psychotic episodes are generally self-limiting and seem to occur in individuals with a history of psychiatric problems."

If you are prone to feeling paranoia and fear related to a mental illness (and have a history of psychiatric problems), taking a drug that can induce paranoia and fear is a terrible idea. Again, even in what I cited above there was a doctor who was completely against the idea that marijuana use can cause psychosis and schizophrenia - yet he advised people who already have this illness against using the drug...not because the science isn't clear yet, but he stated specifically because marijuana can give you negative side effects that are not good for one's mental well being if you already have the illness. I've no doubt, thanks in part to your links above (and only the from that sources that frown upon the idea that marijuana causes psychosis), that Brian's marijuana use only contributed to the negative state of his mentality during that time period.

In the article you linked above there is promising research that cannabidiol can be extracted from marijuana (keeping it apart from THC) and it can be used to help treat psychosis. It'll be interesting to see where that research leads.
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« Reply #39 on: January 04, 2017, 06:53:42 AM »

Villains. Period.

Totally agree. To even debate this is insane .
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« Reply #40 on: January 04, 2017, 08:27:38 AM »

Isnít there also some research that suggests that taking certain drugs before the brain is fully developed (about age 25) can be a catalyst to developing/exacerbating mental illness? Or was that refuted? (Iíd look it up but Iím on my work computerÖ)

I just know someone who suffers from depression and anxiety, has a family history of a wide range of mental illnesses, including addiction, but who didnít begin experimenting with drugs until they were in their late 20s, and never developed a dependence, seemed to get worse, or become permanently altered by their experiences. If anything, their mood improved for an extended period of time. Likely itís my friendís unique combination of genetic, environmental, psychological, biological and other factors that created this experience for them.

I donít have a problem with people using recreational drugs ďresponsiblyĒ in order to help them unlock other ways of thinking or seeing things. Whatever a person creates while under the influence of, or inspired by the experience of, a drug is still theirs. To me itís like driving down a different road that day. If you take the same road every day, you see the same stuff over and over again. Maybe itís sunny one day and the light plays differently on that old barn you see all the time, and thatís nice. But take a different road for a change, and you suddenly you find out about that beautiful wildflower gardenÖ so now you go and grab your camera and take a photo, or paint a picture, or write a song about it.

But what is responsible use? Some people are able to use without negative impact, while others become damaged or addicted. Drugs affect everyone differently. With so many factors at play, it seems like  itís a crap shoot how drugs will impact any given person.
You could argue that in light of that maybe itís best not to go down that road. But then maybe no one should ever go skydiving, either. I guess Iím divided on the subject. I wouldnít call drugs a hero or a villain, just someone who walks the line between good and bad.
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« Reply #41 on: January 04, 2017, 08:52:58 AM »

Isnít there also some research that suggests that taking certain drugs before the brain is fully developed (about age 25) can be a catalyst to developing/exacerbating mental illness? Or was that refuted? (Iíd look it up but Iím on my work computerÖ)

I just know someone who suffers from depression and anxiety, has a family history of a wide range of mental illnesses, including addiction, but who didnít begin experimenting with drugs until they were in their late 20s, and never developed a dependence, seemed to get worse, or become permanently altered by their experiences. If anything, their mood improved for an extended period of time. Likely itís my friendís unique combination of genetic, environmental, psychological, biological and other factors that created this experience for them.

I donít have a problem with people using recreational drugs ďresponsiblyĒ in order to help them unlock other ways of thinking or seeing things. Whatever a person creates while under the influence of, or inspired by the experience of, a drug is still theirs. To me itís like driving down a different road that day. If you take the same road every day, you see the same stuff over and over again. Maybe itís sunny one day and the light plays differently on that old barn you see all the time, and thatís nice. But take a different road for a change, and you suddenly you find out about that beautiful wildflower gardenÖ so now you go and grab your camera and take a photo, or paint a picture, or write a song about it.

But what is responsible use? Some people are able to use without negative impact, while others become damaged or addicted. Drugs affect everyone differently. With so many factors at play, it seems like  itís a crap shoot how drugs will impact any given person.
You could argue that in light of that maybe itís best not to go down that road. But then maybe no one should ever go skydiving, either. I guess Iím divided on the subject. I wouldnít call drugs a hero or a villain, just someone who walks the line between good and bad.

I'm sure Emily could cull some sources regarding your first question...it's something I'm not too familiar with, though I do know people directly in the line of alcohol abuse research and they believe that alcohol has a damaging effect on development - they specifically stated that they've seen evidence of the brain actually forming very differently under heavy alcohol useage as opposed to a purely sober development. But I'm sure these findings could conflict with other sources. Like Emily said, it's the chicken and the egg - you could say that people with rampant drug use are more likely to develop mental issues down the road, but it could be underlying mental issues that drive people to drugs in the first place (and those mental issues would reveal themselves at a later date regardless of drug use).

I agree with most if not all of your post (your analogy about driving down a different road is exactly how I feel about drugs and their influence on music).
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« Reply #42 on: January 05, 2017, 07:18:14 AM »

I'm gonna give the cop-out answer and say neither. You would not have the level of introspection on the TODAY ballads and PET SOUNDS without pot and SMILE was Twain and Disney on acid.  Without drugs, a lot of that music would have turned out differently.  On the other hand, Brian was one guy who, in retrospect, never should have touched LSD.  It's very much a double-edged sword.

I don't think pot is necessarily a villain. I have never had it myself but even many doctors have said it is safe. I was thinking more about LSD, Heroine, Cocaine, etc
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"Over the years, I've been accused of not supporting our new music from this era (67-73) and just wanting to play our hits. That's complete b.s......I was also, as the front man, the one promoting these songs onstage and have the scars to show for it."
Mike Love autobiography (pg 242-243)
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« Reply #43 on: January 05, 2017, 10:42:54 PM »

I'm gonna give the cop-out answer and say neither. You would not have the level of introspection on the TODAY ballads and PET SOUNDS without pot and SMILE was Twain and Disney on acid.  Without drugs, a lot of that music would have turned out differently.  On the other hand, Brian was one guy who, in retrospect, never should have touched LSD.  It's very much a double-edged sword.

I don't think pot is necessarily a villain. I have never had it myself but even many doctors have said it is safe. I was thinking more about LSD, Heroine, Cocaine, etc
Depends on how heavily one uses it. I have met people that were absolutely addicted to pot. For others, it is simply a way to relax, the way some people relax with a beer.
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« Reply #44 on: January 05, 2017, 10:56:02 PM »

I'm gonna give the cop-out answer and say neither. You would not have the level of introspection on the TODAY ballads and PET SOUNDS without pot and SMILE was Twain and Disney on acid.  Without drugs, a lot of that music would have turned out differently.  On the other hand, Brian was one guy who, in retrospect, never should have touched LSD.  It's very much a double-edged sword.

I don't think pot is necessarily a villain. I have never had it myself but even many doctors have said it is safe. I was thinking more about LSD, Heroine, Cocaine, etc
Depends on how heavily one uses it. I have met people that were absolutely addicted to pot. For others, it is simply a way to relax, the way some people relax with a beer.

Exactly. A doctor will also tell you alcohol, in moderation, is safe. In addition, if you don't have the right mentality to be responsible while drinking (getting uncontrollably angry for instance) a doctor would advise you against the partaking of alcohol.

Likewise the same with marijuana. I 99% don't see it as a villain, but in Brian's case I see it as one (check my post(s) and emily's links above). Drugs are different for everyone.
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« Reply #45 on: January 06, 2017, 01:40:39 AM »

I don't think pot is necessarily a villain. I have never had it myself but even many doctors have said it is safe. I was thinking more about LSD, Heroine, Cocaine, etc

As a sensitive type, I can count the number of times I've toked on the fingers of two hands.

On one occasion it went very wrong----seems the stuff was opiated. Not nice.

So I'd still say dope/pot/marijuana is a villain.
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« Reply #46 on: January 06, 2017, 05:40:22 AM »

The science is not certain. Of course if there's an uncertain likelihood, people will advise against it.
http://www.psychiatryadvisor.com/schizophrenia-and-psychoses/cannabis-and-schizophrenia-trigger-or-treatment/article/399675/
This cites several sources:
http://medicalmarijuana.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=000220

Regarding Brian Wilson's naÔvetť, sometimes it seems he's naive like a fox.

Emily, I really don't think you're understanding what I'm saying. ^Those are both fascinating reads btw. But these are proving what we both already agree on (as I said from the beginning: the evidence is varied on the chicken and egg argument).

My point has been that it is certain that people who already have an illness of that kind should not use marijuana...as it can exacerbate the symptoms. Even in your own citations above there were doctors (who were also adamant that marijuana use does not cause psychosis) who stated specifically that "the drug may modify the course of an already established illness." (keeping in mind that Brian was displaying signs of an already established illness prior to taking drugs). This doctor writes just prior: "Cannabis use can lead to a range of short-lived symptoms such as de-personalisation, de-realisation, a feeling of loss of control, fear of dying, irrational panic and paranoid ideas...". Another doctor says: "There have been reports of psychotic 'breakdowns' occurring with rare frequency after marijuana has been smoked, but the causal relationship is in question. The psychotic episodes are generally self-limiting and seem to occur in individuals with a history of psychiatric problems."

If you are prone to feeling paranoia and fear related to a mental illness (and have a history of psychiatric problems), taking a drug that can induce paranoia and fear is a terrible idea. Again, even in what I cited above there was a doctor who was completely against the idea that marijuana use can cause psychosis and schizophrenia - yet he advised people who already have this illness against using the drug...not because the science isn't clear yet, but he stated specifically because marijuana can give you negative side effects that are not good for one's mental well being if you already have the illness. I've no doubt, thanks in part to your links above (and only the from that sources that frown upon the idea that marijuana causes psychosis), that Brian's marijuana use only contributed to the negative state of his mentality during that time period.

In the article you linked above there is promising research that cannabidiol can be extracted from marijuana (keeping it apart from THC) and it can be used to help treat psychosis. It'll be interesting to see where that research leads.
I initially agreed with you but then you started saying it's "certain". I'm saying it's not certain and that doctors recommending against it isn't evidence of certainty. I agree that it's likely and I think the doctors are recommending against because it's likely.
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« Reply #47 on: January 06, 2017, 06:15:58 AM »

Ok, we'll agree to disagree. But thanks much for those links provided above...it's great to see that people are willing to challenge a generally/commonly held belief in the name of science.
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« Reply #48 on: January 19, 2017, 02:31:30 PM »

To answer topic question: villains.
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« Reply #49 on: March 10, 2017, 04:59:45 AM »

I wonder if there are many people turned on to the Beach Boys by the story of the rise, fall and resurrection of Brian Wilson?

An abusive father, drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, a poor circle of friends and mental illness all combined to bring this musical powerhouse to his rock bottom. Yet music and talent (and a few physical influences) rescued him to the point where he has put out more solo material than the other members of the band combined. Some of it is pretty damned good music too.

Any time people overcome a substance they are lauded much more than those who never did it to begin with because it represents a longer struggle to the top.

Love and Mercy made for a beautifully emotional story - a story that nearly every Disney movie follows: Something is going along really well; something tragic happens; then the protagonist overcomes the tragedy and prevails. Many of the popular films use this formula. Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Rocky, Finding Nemo...

While I would not call drugs a "hero", they may be one of the villains that allowed the hero to be resurrected, and that resurrection makes for a compelling story. That story may expose potential fans to the music to see what the hype is about.
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