gfxgfx
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
logo
 
gfx gfx
gfx
680598 Posts in 27600 Topics by 4068 Members - Latest Member: Dae Lims March 28, 2024, 05:09:08 PM
*
gfx*HomeHelpSearchCalendarLoginRegistergfx
gfxgfx
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.       « previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Did Brian ever choose the wrong takes?  (Read 7366 times)
CenturyDeprived
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5749



View Profile
« on: November 30, 2016, 10:19:36 AM »

I gave a listen to some of the Unsurpassed Masters sessions recently, and wondered: did Brian always make the best choices when choosing which take to use for the master take (and thus, the take of the released album version) of a given song?

Sometimes arrangements of earlier takes of various BB songs varied quite a bit from the final, released versions.

For example: on The Little Girl That I Once Knew, some of the earlier takes seem to be at a more upbeat, energetic tempo than the final master take. Plus, they don't have that awkward delayed drum flub at the beginning which somehow was approved on the released version. Being as that song wasn't a hit, does anyone think any of the other takes of the song could have given the song a shot in the arm? Granted, that song had long "uncommercial" pauses which might have been a contributing factor, but my question is in a general sense.

Separate from that, does anyone think that either the chart placement, or the stature of any released BB song would have been LESSER if Brian had used a different take? There are literally 40+ takes of California Girls, for example. Each with some different touches, drum fills, etc. Being that the released version is SO perfect in nearly every way (barring the slightly out-of-sync chorus vocals), does anyone think using any of the earlier, "inferior" takes (that can be heard on the UM sessions) could have diminished the chart placement (or the acclaim) of the song?
Logged
joshferrell
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1634



View Profile
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2016, 04:02:15 PM »

I think he usually picked the take that felt the best to him (well at least in the 60's and some of the 70's), so I think he picked the best takes just by his gut feeling alone and it worked, but as far as chart placement it's hard to know, I think the melodies on a lot of his hits are very memorable so I'm not sure the different takes would matter since the melody is similar,,,I do agree with his choice to NOT release the "wa wa wa wa wa" version of "Help Me Rhonda" but that could have been his gut feeling talking to him..I also agree with the long version of "Meant for you" not being released on Friends because the album version is short and sweet and makes a perfect intro to the album, and the shorter version of "I was made to love her" is a perfect little recording, although the longer version is interesting, as far as "flubs" it seems like he actually liked them, maybe they gave the songs their own charm or uniqueness, I think the single version of Little Girl was just about perfect IMO...
Logged
Kid Presentable
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 287


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2016, 04:37:04 PM »

The alternate I'm So Young kicked a ton of ass, moreso than the album version.
Logged
The Cincinnati Kid
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 802



View Profile
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2016, 05:21:24 PM »

I think the alternate version of Breakaway is much better than the single.
Logged
CenturyDeprived
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5749



View Profile
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2016, 05:29:03 PM »

Curious if anyone else has heard an actual alternate take of a song (not necessarily a full-on alternate version), but more of say Take 30 as opposed to Take 33 (just throwing random numbers out there) from the Unsurpassed Masters series where a completely unreleased, or even unfinished, take is better than the released version?

It could be something as simple as a cooler drum fill, or a more spirited sax performance...
« Last Edit: November 30, 2016, 07:09:20 PM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9996


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2016, 06:34:13 PM »

I say no, but there is one famous case where Brian himself wishes he had another take - "Let Him Run Wild", his lead vocal take. I personally love it, but he even mentions it in his book, and it was also kept off the GV box for this reason.

It helps to have been involved in studio sessions to try getting into where Brian's decision-making may have been coming from. Factor in the technology, 3-4 tracks for instrumental backing sessions and by 1965 a studio room full of musicians...by Pet Sounds, it would literally be a packed room a la Spector. But listening to the UM takes in sequence, if you've been involved in recording sessions personally, your ears get more tuned into what a lot of listeners may not be hearing. For Brian I think it was so multi-layered of a process that a bum note here or there would be ignored for that perfect feel. And by '66 especially into Smile, you hear him making spot decisions on the most seemingly nit-picked details like tone and timbre, and a player's proximity to a microphone, so he was constantly tinkering with the sonic elements to capture the best "blend".

And blend is something that I fear isn't taught in recording classes today, simply because for most working sessions there are not the setups which Brian had going at the small rooms in Western and Gold Star. But it was crucial to the sound of those records.

But I have to say it all comes back to the groove and the feel, those elements usurped everything even though the precision of the players was obviously a factor too.

One of my favorites is a redacted session tape of a Heroes session. Most of the tape was Brian's comments on the talkback, and on a few takes he says specifically things like "we want a perfect feel", etc.

If you're tuned into that method of producing and recording, you can hear where some of those unused takes in a string of sometimes several dozen may seem like the players hit all the right parts, but the feel just wasn't there. And Brian knew exactly when he got that perfect feel, and I think would be ok with a bum note here or there.

A related conversation could be about when Brian (or any producer) knows they have the final mix. A mix used to be a musical performance unto itself, for some old-school minded engineers and producers they still work that way to a degree, but after full automation followed by fully digital recording and editing became standard, it just wasn't the same. But back to Brian, listen to whenever he talked about that final mix of Good Vibrations that became the #1 single. He knew right away when he had captured the mix he wanted, the mix process has as much "feel" involved as the actual takes, and you can (hopefully) feel when you've grabbed exactly what you hoped to capture to say this is the one, there will be no more tinkering or tweaking. I think there is an interview on camera where Brian talks about mixing GV and he even snaps his fingers like he's saying I knew we GOT IT (snap), you could tell he was still excited about that mix decades later.
Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇
Pissing off drunks since 1978
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 11844


🍦🍦 Pet Demon for Sale - $5 or best offer ☮☮


View Profile WWW
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2016, 07:36:59 PM »

I think the alternate version of Breakaway is much better than the single.

I do as well.
Logged

Need your song mixed/mastered? Contact me at fear2stop@yahoo.com. Serious inquiries only, please!
bringahorseinhere?
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1220



View Profile
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2016, 09:17:15 PM »

every time I hear 'help me rhonda', I actually miss hearing the 'wha wha' part in the chorus in the
alternate single mix on 'endless harmony'.  I think it fills in the chorus better than what they chose.
Logged
ForHerCryingSoul
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 344



View Profile WWW
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2016, 09:33:26 PM »

I feel they should have kept Brian's falsetto part in the bridge of Do it Again, not front in center, but maybe panned to the left or right a little.

I also wish that Brian used the instrumental track for Night Time with the flutes in the background, idk, that version seems a lot more interesting than the finished version.
Logged
CenturyDeprived
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5749



View Profile
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2016, 09:37:49 PM »

On the topic of alternate versions (as opposed to alternate takes), I love the weird, slightly dissonant outro on this alternate version of Add Some Music starting at 3:15.  Reminds me a bit of Sail Plane Song.  I wonder if all the outro instrumentation in this version is actually still in the released version, but covered up by vocals.

https://youtu.be/uoaaYFg67-A
Logged
jiggy22
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 449



View Profile WWW
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2016, 10:49:14 PM »

I feel they should have kept Brian's falsetto part in the bridge of Do it Again, not front in center, but maybe panned to the left or right a little.

I also wish that Brian used the instrumental track for Night Time with the flutes in the background, idk, that version seems a lot more interesting than the finished version.

Not trying to self-promote or anything, but I have an alternate version of the 20/20 album (re-titled to Break Away) on my blog. Featured is my mix of "Do it Again", which features Brian's isolated falsetto synched up with the final track. Check it out if you want!
http://jiggy22.blogspot.com/2016/05/the-beach-boys-break-away.html
Logged

Do happy happy happy Mission Pak singing sound!

My blog, where I post my original Beach Boys mixes and whatnot:
http://www.jiggy22.blogspot.com
JK
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 6053


Maybe I put too much faith in atmosphere


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2016, 03:35:26 AM »

I say no, but there is one famous case where Brian himself wishes he had another take - "Let Him Run Wild", his lead vocal take. I personally love it, but he even mentions it in his book, and it was also kept off the GV box for this reason.

Didn't he say the same thing about his vocals on "California Girls"?

That aside, I say no as well!   
Logged

"Ik bun moar een eenvoudige boerenlul en doar schoam ik mien niet veur" (Normaal, 1978)
You're Grass and I'm a Power Mower: A Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
the Carbon Freeze | Eclectic Essays & Art
maggie
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 123


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2016, 04:35:17 AM »

I think the alternate version of Breakaway is much better than the single.

Do you mean the Endless Summer version? Isn't the instrumental take the same?

The alternate I'm So Young kicked a ton of ass, moreso than the album version.

I don't know that I agree. It's easy to prefer the alternate version because it's in a clean modern stereo mix. A 1965 mix probably would have sounded similar to the release version.
Logged
JK
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 6053


Maybe I put too much faith in atmosphere


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2016, 05:13:25 AM »

The alternate I'm So Young kicked a ton of ass, moreso than the album version.

I don't know that I agree. It's easy to prefer the alternate version because it's in a clean modern stereo mix. A 1965 mix probably would have sounded similar to the release version.

It's true it kicks more ass than the album version but in this case give me a little less ass and a little more subtlety! 
Logged

"Ik bun moar een eenvoudige boerenlul en doar schoam ik mien niet veur" (Normaal, 1978)
You're Grass and I'm a Power Mower: A Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
the Carbon Freeze | Eclectic Essays & Art
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9996


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2016, 06:10:22 AM »

I thought the original question was about "takes" rather than alternate mixes or rough/unused mixes. I personally find the studio process and listening to the actual takes (when available) much more interesting than alternate mixes, no matter who the artist is. It's audio verite looking into the actual process of making the record versus a mix that was rejected.
Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
branaa09
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 193


View Profile
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2016, 11:51:55 PM »

Well let's look at Let Him Run Wild. Brian recorded it in 23 Takes. The Master Take 23 is amazing, but Brian decided to use Take 16 instead for the finished Master. Maybe because the rhythm is looser? Now let's Take a look at I Get Around. Take 15 was the Master Take, sure Take 7 and Take 10 could have been used as they were complete, add Overdubs done, but Brian decided the playing  needed to be tighter. I'm So Young the album version was recorded in 1 Take. The Take breaks down at the end and Brian decided it needed an Edit Piece to finish it, instead of another take. Fun, Fun, Fun was recorded in just 3 Takes. Take 1 has two drummers on it Hal and and Dennis. It could have been great, but it breaks down, so they try another attempt. Hal tells Brian to just have Dennis drum and he will Overdub later. That take cooks as well, but breaks down. They attempt it again it's perfect, add Overdubs done. I guess it was based on how Brian felt about each take, when he listened back and if it made it to the end of the song.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2016, 11:54:54 PM by branaa09 » Logged
MikestheGreatest!!
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 281


View Profile
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2016, 02:30:52 PM »

Little Girl I Once Knew was certainly a hit.
Logged
The_Beach
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 430


View Profile
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2016, 02:34:56 PM »

I think he usually picked the take that felt the best to him (well at least in the 60's and some of the 70's), so I think he picked the best takes just by his gut feeling alone and it worked, but as far as chart placement it's hard to know, I think the melodies on a lot of his hits are very memorable so I'm not sure the different takes would matter since the melody is similar,,,I do agree with his choice to NOT release the "wa wa wa wa wa" version of "Help Me Rhonda" but that could have been his gut feeling talking to him..I also agree with the long version of "Meant for you" not being released on Friends because the album version is short and sweet and makes a perfect intro to the album, and the shorter version of "I was made to love her" is a perfect little recording, although the longer version is interesting, as far as "flubs" it seems like he actually liked them, maybe they gave the songs their own charm or uniqueness, I think the single version of Little Girl was just about perfect IMO...

I disagree with Meant For You! I think the song was to short to become of anything at 0:40. I like the longer version. Even the longer version is quite a short sweet song at only 1:49.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2016, 02:37:20 PM by The_Beach » Logged
send me a picture and i'll tell you
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 354


spilling my phector


View Profile
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2016, 07:16:17 PM »

That's definitely not a drum flub in LGIOK. It's an obvious bad edit (sounds almost like a needle skipping a groove), and about 2 beats are missing.

Listen to the same bit at the end of the second verse, and try counting both. Try singing/following the horn part.

It's possible Brian was trying to trick the listener into thinking the record skipped, which would be an interesting bit of humor. If it was just a bad edit, one has to wonder how every single person listening to the tape before the records were pressed could have missed that.
Logged

that's it, who here wants to touch d***s? all in a row, just run your hand across several of them and hit them like you're bret hart tagging your fans as you approach the ring wearing teh pink sunglasses in 1993     ----runnersdialzero

We have a little extra meat onstage. The audience can feel it.   --Al Jardine

pLeAsUrE iSlAnD!!!!!!!!!!!!!
felipe
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 61


View Profile
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2016, 09:00:19 PM »

- The alternate Good Vibrations fuzz bass ending was better
- The alternate Help Me Rhonda with the counterpoint falsetto on the chorus was better
- Wouldn't It Be Nice with Brian on the bridge was better
- Carl's earlier God Only Knows takes on the verses were better. I would also use his late vocal on the tag instead of Brian's. The released bridge nonetheless is perfect
- Hang On To Your Ego or even I Know There's An Answer with more vocals on the chorus was better
- Sped up Caroline No sucks
- Mike and Brian's Heroes and Villains duet should't have been erased
- Earlier Please Let Me Wonder backing vocals with "aaahs" were better than the released with "uuuhs"
Logged
CenturyDeprived
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5749



View Profile
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2016, 09:30:44 PM »

That's definitely not a drum flub in LGIOK. It's an obvious bad edit (sounds almost like a needle skipping a groove), and about 2 beats are missing.

Listen to the same bit at the end of the second verse, and try counting both. Try singing/following the horn part.

It's possible Brian was trying to trick the listener into thinking the record skipped, which would be an interesting bit of humor. If it was just a bad edit, one has to wonder how every single person listening to the tape before the records were pressed could have missed that.

Are we talking about the same part? I'm referring to the very beginning of the song, right when the percussion comes in. I guess it's actually tambourine as opposed to drums, that was my bad.  They start slightly late, and then speed up to correct themselves briefly, and it really bugs me  because you can clearly tell the amount of labored work that went into the whole song.  If there is a little mistake, it sticks out like a sore thumb to happen at the beginning like that.  The earlier takes of the song, which can be heard on the UM boot,  are quite interesting, and a pretty different vibe in general to the final, approved take.

A very similar thing happened at the beginning of the song Land Ahoy, where Denny's drums come in glaringly late. But that can be more easily forgiven, considering they were so green in the studio at that early point.  Plus, they never released that song as a single, let alone at all!

Regarding the part that you were talking about, I agree… That's a really weird edit which doesn't entirely work in my opinion.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2016, 09:34:39 PM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
CenturyDeprived
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5749



View Profile
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2016, 09:32:35 PM »

- The alternate Good Vibrations fuzz bass ending was better
- The alternate Help Me Rhonda with the counterpoint falsetto on the chorus was better
- Wouldn't It Be Nice with Brian on the bridge was better
- Carl's earlier God Only Knows takes on the verses were better. I would also use his late vocal on the tag instead of Brian's. The released bridge nonetheless is perfect
- Hang On To Your Ego or even I Know There's An Answer with more vocals on the chorus was better
- Sped up Caroline No sucks
- Mike and Brian's Heroes and Villains duet should't have been erased
- Earlier Please Let Me Wonder backing vocals with "aaahs" were better than the released with "uuuhs"


Agree completely about WIBN and C, N (though I wouldn't quite use the "sucks" label, but it does certainly pale to the unaltered speed version!)
Logged
send me a picture and i'll tell you
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 354


spilling my phector


View Profile
« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2016, 11:21:32 PM »

I assume you mean the tambourine at 0:08 (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K6Ok9bKdAeU). That doesn't really bug me-- I hear one slightly sluggish entrance but don't hear the speeding up.

Yeah, I meant the "look out, babe"/"split, man" parts. I should have said follow the bass, not the horns.
Logged

that's it, who here wants to touch d***s? all in a row, just run your hand across several of them and hit them like you're bret hart tagging your fans as you approach the ring wearing teh pink sunglasses in 1993     ----runnersdialzero

We have a little extra meat onstage. The audience can feel it.   --Al Jardine

pLeAsUrE iSlAnD!!!!!!!!!!!!!
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9996


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2016, 05:56:52 AM »

If it hasn't been mentioned already, I'll add one I forgot about until yesterday. Every major market in the US seems to have a 24/7 Christmas station, the one I listen to yesterday afternoon played the album version of Little Saint Nick. And I really don't understand why, because compared to the single mix, it sounds flat and has less of the sparkle and pop that the single version has. It's the mix, it's the more stripped down instrumentation, it's a number of sonic factors but it just doesn't have that same sizzle that the single version has.

So this is another case where in terms of a single, a better more punchier version was chosen that had better radio sonics. Same with Ronda vs Rhonda. But I can't hear the album version of Little Saint Nick without thinking it's missing something which the single mix delivered. So...
Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
CenturyDeprived
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5749



View Profile
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2016, 11:06:29 AM »

If it hasn't been mentioned already, I'll add one I forgot about until yesterday. Every major market in the US seems to have a 24/7 Christmas station, the one I listen to yesterday afternoon played the album version of Little Saint Nick. And I really don't understand why, because compared to the single mix, it sounds flat and has less of the sparkle and pop that the single version has. It's the mix, it's the more stripped down instrumentation, it's a number of sonic factors but it just doesn't have that same sizzle that the single version has.

So this is another case where in terms of a single, a better more punchier version was chosen that had better radio sonics. Same with Ronda vs Rhonda. But I can't hear the album version of Little Saint Nick without thinking it's missing something which the single mix delivered. So...

Speaking of the BB Christmas album, I've always been bugged at the out of sync "dit dit dit / dit dit dit dit dit dit" backing vocals on Merry Christmas, Baby. They are probably the most out of sync vocals in the entire catalog. I assume Brian just did a rush job with recording, and that this is how it got released like that; however, I don't have a copy of the Unsurpassed Masters for this album, so I wonder if there were ever any better-synced takes on the reels. Either way, I would actually totally not mind if Linnett/Boyd would do some waveform nudging for time adjustment for those vocals. Even if that's "tinkering", I think it would be an invisible fix, nothing like a George Lucas-style fixing-what-ain't-broke, and it would IMO much better serve this awesome song.
Logged
gfx
Pages: [1] 2 Go Up Print 
gfx
Jump to:  
gfx
Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Page created in 0.763 seconds with 22 queries.
Helios Multi design by Bloc
gfx
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!