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Author Topic: Politics: 2016 Lame Duck and 2017 New Administration  (Read 46253 times)
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the captain
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« Reply #750 on: September 08, 2017, 10:08:06 AM »

Technically it wasn't promoting it, because that (illegal) immigration had already happened. The policy didn't carry forward to new arrivals.

I'm not advocating entirely open borders, and certainly agree that a state has the right (and to some extent, obligation) to protect its borders. But the people affected by DACA seem like a silly target, in that whatever costs they've had to America are most likely to be in the past, with their futures likely to be as contributors (based on the criteria for eligibility). If you're going to have stronger enforcement to keep our future, new arrivals, that can be more reasonably argued, since they are more likely to cost the country money in the short term. It's a legitimate argument to have. But to focus on these kids seems mostly just like a spiteful and political move to excite a base without having any particularly big effects or benefits.

It would be a political win for the president, though, among his base. I'll admit that. It's also a great example of why executive orders are pretty stupid. The amount of time and effort wasted on non-legislated directives that are made, unmade, made, and unmade for purely political reasons is absurd. I understand the frustration from presidents with legislatures not getting anything done, and I understand the political benefits to presidents. But that doesn't make it a huge waste of time, energy, and thus money.



For me personally, it isn't about the cost. It's about the principal and the safety issues. We have an immigration system to keep our country safe and circumventing that simply because you don't want to go through a long process (long because it needs to be) then you aren't acting in the best interest of your future nation.

I understand that point of view, but again, that makes DACA a silly point of emphasis (other than maybe on principle). Safety issues are going to be minimal with these kids/young adults, presumably--no worse than American kids, anyway, as they've been vetted. Again, I think if it's about recent arrivals or not-yet-arrived immigrants, I think the argument makes more sense. This seems to be throwing out the baby with the bathwater to me. It's not the end of my world, by any means: not the hill I'd die on. But I can't imagine why it would be worth the right's time either, other than as an easy political victory because EOs are so (relatively) easy to undo and that base wants it.

I'm dumber than I thought. I was a little surprised nobody had responded to my post (below) ... until checking back today and realizing I'd actually inserted it into the mess of quotes above. Maybe nobody wants to respond anyway, but at least now you can see what I was asking about before deciding!

So, on Sept 8, I posted:
FatherOfTheMan Sr101 (or others of similar mindset), how do you feel about Trump's announcement on DACA? Contrary to Sessions' and the Freedom Caucus types' preferences, it seems he is actually of a mind with the leadership of the Republicans in that he wants to preserve DACA, just in legislation as opposed to EO. Do you feel betrayed by that?


And now, on Sept. 14, with more progress having been done on this and related (and maybe unrelated) issues based on agreements with the Democratic leadership, I guess I'd ask the question again? Do you feel good that he's getting agreements, or do you feel that he's betraying the principles he ran on?
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 02:55:27 PM by the captain » Logged

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the captain
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« Reply #751 on: September 14, 2017, 03:03:29 PM »

Bumping to call attention to my stupidity (and to seek the answer to the original question ... see above post).
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« Reply #752 on: September 14, 2017, 05:01:48 PM »

I was really surprised to hear about the Schumer-Pelosi-Trump deal on the debt ceiling, government spending, and hurricane aid. Hard to even call that a 'deal'. What did the Democrats compromise? And now he's made another deal with the Democrats on DACA/Immigration (which doesn't include a wall). Trump supporters must be alarmed by his behavior, right? I think Trump was just fed up with the Republicans and wanted to get something done. Literally, anything. Which I think was made easier by the fact that i don't think he really cares all that much about any one policy or principle. He certainly succeeded in sending a message to the Republicans, though! Perhaps, this is an elaborate ploy by Trump to motivate the Republicans to get things done? I have my doubts. I think Trump is betting on tax reform. If he can get that one big win for his base, then they'll forget about the rest? In the short-term though, I think these deals hurt the Republicans efforts (provides Democrats leverage; debt ceiling and government shutdown just in time for Christmas!).
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 05:08:13 PM by B.E. » Logged
Emily
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« Reply #753 on: September 18, 2017, 03:24:12 PM »

Hi!
So I seem to have missed DACA and Antifa:
DACA - I'm for open borders, so of course I'm against the repeal. I think Trump is trying to exercise his claimed but so far not in evidence deal-making skills. I'm a little concerned how it may turn out.
Antifa - frankly, the glorification of violence on the left concerns me. As do other impressions I've received that much of the left has decided to fight the right on the right's terms, which dismays me. Having said that, it's pretty hard to tell the reportage from the propaganda on Antifa and I suspect their violence is exaggerated.
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FatherOfTheMan Sr101
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« Reply #754 on: September 18, 2017, 05:32:30 PM »

Watch Antifa attacks on people's personal twitter videos. If anything they downplay the violence.
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the captain
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« Reply #755 on: September 18, 2017, 05:47:11 PM »

Haven't heard from trump supporters yet on the DACA situation (or overall Dem-dealmaking). Nobody has an opinion either for or against?
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« Reply #756 on: September 18, 2017, 08:52:42 PM »

Watch Antifa attacks on people's personal twitter videos. If anything they downplay the violence.
The problem is that I've seen several that were taken out of context. One in which a Trump guy brass knuckled people
first, then the RW media passed a clip of the aftermath as if the Antifa people hit first. When two sides go armed and a fight ensues, a YouTube video of a melee is not good evidence of what happened.
Again, I don't support violence, and it's clear that Antifa uses it at times and I don't support that, but it's very clear that it's also being glorified on the right with "based-" being a clear reference to planned violence in many user names and pre-protest planning for violence being obvious on many right-wing sites. So the right is using Antifa as a tool to excuse their own violence.
All the violence is wrong, pretending that antifa violence is worse or more pervasive than RW violence is dishonest.
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« Reply #757 on: September 18, 2017, 09:07:11 PM »

I don't know a single instance of the left glorifying a known perpetrator of violence in the way "based stickman" has been glorified on the right.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/crime/meet-the-based-stickman-173908
Search for the term "based stickman". Then look at 4-chan and other right wing sites and see all the people with user names "based-" something. Read them preparing for "battle", arming themselves, planning how to incite violence against themselves so they can "counterpunch"
Read this perversion:
https://townhall.com/columnists/jackkerwick/2017/04/25/the-battle-of-berkeley-when-patriots-beat-the-antiamerican-left-n2317702
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 09:09:41 PM by Emily » Logged
Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #758 on: September 20, 2017, 06:35:00 AM »

It's a genuine testament to the strength of propaganda when, in a year where we have seen a dramatic surge of US bombing of civilians in Syria and Iraq and the funding/arming of Saudi Arabia's war crimes in Yemen, that the focus is on Antifa violence. Yes, Antifa should be criticized for their violent actions and attempts to suppress free speech, but their actions are a trivial speck of dust in comparison to the overwhelming acts of violence carried out by or funded by Trump who, as a result of these actions, is without a doubt an international war criminal.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2017, 06:35:49 AM by Chocolate Shake Man » Logged
B.E.
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« Reply #759 on: September 20, 2017, 06:48:28 AM »

Just last week, Rand Paul tried to get a vote on setting an expiration date on the '01 and '02 military authorizations, but the Senate killed it.
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Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #760 on: September 20, 2017, 06:59:49 AM »

Just last week, Rand Paul tried to get a vote on setting an expiration date on the '01 and '02 military authorizations, but the Senate killed it.

Which is remarkable considering how often Trump talked negatively about the US's ongoing entanglements in other countries during the Obama administration and in his campaign. Like I said all along, Trump was another status quo candidate who was as hawkish on foreign policy as most other leaders in both parties. Ultimately, the US political system is quite simply dominated by people who want to keep the war industry going.
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the captain
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« Reply #761 on: September 20, 2017, 07:02:50 AM »

Paul's speech was interesting. As is often the case with him (and his dad), there were moments where I fully agreed...and others, not. (Like his repeated reference to the christians in Syria being of particular interest to our policy.
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« Reply #762 on: September 20, 2017, 07:11:44 AM »

Haven't heard from trump supporters yet on the DACA situation (or overall Dem-dealmaking). Nobody has an opinion either for or against?

That people still support Trump despite his about-turn on so many significant aspects of his declared policy during the election campaign illustrates how easy it is to become a partisan hack. This is true across the US political spectrum, incidentally, but it is precious given the fact that many of these same people would have accused Obama of the same thing (quite rightly, I would add).
« Last Edit: September 20, 2017, 07:15:28 AM by Chocolate Shake Man » Logged
the captain
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« Reply #763 on: September 20, 2017, 07:14:16 AM »

Still hoping for comments by the way. And I'm not trying to construct a 'gotcha moment.' I'm seriously asking.
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« Reply #764 on: September 25, 2017, 05:53:54 AM »

Iraqi Kurds are voting on independence today. Catalonia is preparing to do the same. I believe Scotland is considering another vote. I always keep my fingers crossed that Texas is serious in its occasional threats (I kid!).

What do you all think generally or about any of the specific efforts?
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« Reply #765 on: September 25, 2017, 12:45:15 PM »

Certainly in the case of the Kurds and the Catalans, I think it's a great idea.
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« Reply #766 on: September 30, 2017, 04:10:28 PM »

Iraqi Kurds are voting on independence today. Catalonia is preparing to do the same. I believe Scotland is considering another vote. I always keep my fingers crossed that Texas is serious in its occasional threats (I kid!).

What do you all think generally or about any of the specific efforts?
If a region wants independence from a greater state because people who live in that region agree that they have a problem with the state for some reason other than shared nationality - it's worth considering. If the argument is that a nation should have its own state, I don't support it.
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B.E.
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« Reply #767 on: October 01, 2017, 07:25:02 AM »

It's being reported that over 300 people have been injured by police in Catalonia. If Spain considers the vote unbinding, illegal, a sham, and so on...why not just let them vote? Is taking all the measures they have to silence them and now using violence a better alternative? Seems like a bigger political win for Catalonia. But please correct me if I'm wrong. Aside from reading a few articles, I know nothing of what's going on over there.
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the captain
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« Reply #768 on: October 01, 2017, 07:45:13 AM »

I would guess--focus on "guess"--that the reason the Spanish government wants to shut it down is that, valid or not, the results of a referendum would lend credence to the secession movement. It's one thing to say "yes, some people talk about secession, but it's just a fringe movement making a lot of noise." Conversely, imagine if Catalonia can point to a vote where 70%, 80% of the population support secession. (Iraqi Kurdistan's vote was something north of 90% for independence, presumably because many non-Kurds boycotted.) Even if the vote is called illegitimate, those kinds of numbers do force the state to alter its messaging.

I've got a friend who, while American, lives in Barcelona and said it has been absolutely insane there. Both sides, he claims, are getting heated and making irrational arguments for the most part. And now, I hear on NPR that they're cutting power, cutting phone lines, and otherwise trying to block communications of the pro-vote movement. It's really out of hand, from what I can tell.
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« Reply #769 on: October 01, 2017, 08:22:28 AM »

You are probably right. It's a balancing act of sorts. At some point, though, I'd think it would tip the other way. State violence against Catalans, itself, could lend credence to the secession movement. I suppose it depends on how accepted the size of the movement is. Is it really perceived across Spain to just be a fringe movement or do they believe that a vast majority of Catalans would vote for independence. The answer to that would certainly inform the Spanish government's position on this (you'd think hope). Votes can be refuted (both legally and otherwise). For instance, if 80% of 30% of voters want independence (I saw a similar poll). Anyway, my thoughts presupposed that it was not perceived to just be a fringe movement. If there is any doubt though, then, yes, a vote could be worse for Spain.

And thanks for the insight!
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the captain
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« Reply #770 on: October 01, 2017, 08:29:51 AM »

Oh, I think the government recognizes that it isn't in reality a fringe movement, and that the vote will be in favor of independence or at least close enough to show a legitimate movement. But the messaging is easier for them if they can remotely credibly say it is actually just a fringe movement. It's not their actual assessment or the reality that matters, but just the better messaging for them as they see it.

But you're absolutely right that once they take to extreme measures to suppress the counter-messaging/reality, it ends up making them look far, far worse.
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« Reply #771 on: October 02, 2017, 06:04:53 AM »

Reportedly 90% of Catalonian voters chose independence, but that was from only 50% of eligible voters casting ballots. It seems they are unilaterally going forward toward independence. It will be an interesting near future.
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« Reply #772 on: October 02, 2017, 06:16:40 AM »

And our president is at golf tournaments.... Undecided
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« Reply #773 on: October 02, 2017, 07:42:45 AM »

Reportedly 90% of Catalonian voters chose independence, but that was from only 50% of eligible voters casting ballots. It seems they are unilaterally going forward toward independence. It will be an interesting near future.

Those are substantial results. Some reports have eligible voter turnout at 42.3%, but still... considering the efforts taken by Spain to shut down the vote and the average turnout of the region (Spain: 61% of-age; 66% registered), those are strong numbers.

Also, it's now being reported that over 800 people were injured.
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« Reply #774 on: October 08, 2017, 02:05:06 PM »

Populism
https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/26/robert-mercer-breitbart-war-on-media-steve-bannon-donald-trump-nigel-farage
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