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Author Topic: Politics: 2016 Lame Duck and 2017 New Administration  (Read 94174 times)
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Emily
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« Reply #625 on: May 12, 2017, 05:09:14 AM »

Surely even Trump's most hardened supporters can see this is a complete cluster f*** of gigantic proportions.
Embarrassingly, they don't:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/politics/wp/2017/05/12/the-one-little-number-that-so-far-is-all-of-the-protection-donald-trump-needs/
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Cabinessenceking
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« Reply #626 on: May 16, 2017, 09:03:25 AM »

Well, I wonder how that "Beach Boys" inauguration concert would be recalled by the end of this presidency.

What.
An.
Idiot.
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B.E.
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« Reply #627 on: May 16, 2017, 10:37:44 AM »

Well, I wonder how that "Beach Boys" inauguration concert would be recalled by the end of this presidency.

What.
An.
Idiot.

The music will live on. Only a few people on BBs message boards will care.
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Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #628 on: June 01, 2017, 12:47:28 PM »

Trump pulls out of the Paris climate accord. If this doesn't illustrate that this is an administration full of dangerous madmen, I don't know what does.
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NOLA BB Fan
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« Reply #629 on: June 01, 2017, 03:06:52 PM »

If this doesn't illustrate that this is an administration full of dangerous madmen, I don't know what does.

Exactly. And it's just beginning.  Embarrassed
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Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #630 on: June 02, 2017, 11:17:31 AM »

Today, Trump has made a move to hush up a 6,700 page report based on a year long investigation that demonstrates that the CIA's "interrogation methods including waterboarding, sleep deprivation and other kinds of torture were far more brutal and less effective than the C.I.A. described to policy makers, Congress and the public." The implications of all of this are dramatic and is yet another bold assertion that when the US engages in brutality and horrific actions around the world that it should go unquestioned.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/02/us/politics/cia-torture-report-trump.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0
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mtaber
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« Reply #631 on: June 02, 2017, 04:17:40 PM »

America has not been this politically polarized ever before in my memory.  The left is WAY left and the right is WAY right.  I fear for the future. 
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SMiLE Brian
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« Reply #632 on: June 02, 2017, 04:30:21 PM »

Agreed mtaber, this is one divided country.... Undecided
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And production aside, Id so much rather hear a 14 year old David Marks shred some guitar on Chug-a-lug than hear a 51 year old Mike Love sing about bangin some chick in a swimming pool.-rab2591
Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #633 on: June 02, 2017, 05:12:12 PM »

America has not been this politically polarized ever before in my memory.  The left is WAY left and the right is WAY right.  I fear for the future. 

Personally I don't see much of a far left voice out there, unfortunately.
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The Lovester
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« Reply #634 on: June 02, 2017, 05:21:15 PM »

America has not been this politically polarized ever before in my memory.  The left is WAY left and the right is WAY right.  I fear for the future. 

Personally I don't see much of a far left voice out there, unfortunately.
Really? You didn't see the support Bernie had? I agree with mtaber, both sides are drifting farther and farther apart and it's getting harder and harder for anything good to happen, especially in the future after Trump is gone.
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mtaber
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« Reply #635 on: June 02, 2017, 07:35:12 PM »

It's like both sides think that they have to "never give an inch" to the other side, for fear that they'll look weak.  So the right acts like everything their side does is 100% right, and the left acts like everything their side does is 100% right. 

And the news media is largely responsible.  The news used to be presented factually, unbiased, which allowed the consumer to form their own opinion.  Now, the news media has a biased slant on every story.

And the left certainly does have a voice in the news media.
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The Lovester
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« Reply #636 on: June 02, 2017, 09:15:45 PM »

It's like both sides think that they have to "never give an inch" to the other side, for fear that they'll look weak.  So the right acts like everything their side does is 100% right, and the left acts like everything their side does is 100% right. 

And the news media is largely responsible.  The news used to be presented factually, unbiased, which allowed the consumer to form their own opinion.  Now, the news media has a biased slant on every story.

And the left certainly does have a voice in the news media.
Right, and the lefty bias in most media outlets just makes the right angrier, making them feel like they are under attack. It just adds fuel to the fire.
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SMiLE Brian
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« Reply #637 on: June 03, 2017, 04:59:07 AM »

We need Rocky back....
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And production aside, Id so much rather hear a 14 year old David Marks shred some guitar on Chug-a-lug than hear a 51 year old Mike Love sing about bangin some chick in a swimming pool.-rab2591
Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #638 on: June 03, 2017, 04:59:44 AM »

America has not been this politically polarized ever before in my memory.  The left is WAY left and the right is WAY right.  I fear for the future.  

Personally I don't see much of a far left voice out there, unfortunately.
Really? You didn't see the support Bernie had? I agree with mtaber, both sides are drifting farther and farther apart and it's getting harder and harder for anything good to happen, especially in the future after Trump is gone.

I was delighted with the support that Sanders received but I don't particularly consider Sanders to be "WAY left" as mtaber characterized it. The left, as far as I think of it, is the political ideology that has been, by and large, disenfranchised, marginalized, and delegitimized in the United States. Certainly, though, when you delegitimize and eliminate an entire political ideology from participating in civic life in the country, Sanders would look "WAY left" as he is as far left as one is allowed to go. But, traditionally, Sanders is a moderate whose policies do not sway much further left than those of the Roosevelt democrats. In that sense, Sanders is just left of centre. A genuine leftist candidate would be, say, calling for a general strike in order to abolish corporate order and demanding worker control of production. Sanders would never in a million years do that because he's a moderate but, quite, unfortunately, yes, pretty much as far to the left as you are allowed to go in a country where political expression is indeed curbed.

If you can find me a prominent voice in society who is calling for general strikes, the end of corporate order, and worker control of production, please let me know. Until then, I will say that, yes, uncontroversially, there is no voice out there on the left.

And the news media is largely responsible.  The news used to be presented factually, unbiased, which allowed the consumer to form their own opinion.  

When on earth was that? As far as I can tell, historically, the media ALWAYS reflected the interests of its owners.

Quote
And the left certainly does have a voice in the news media.

Since the left is, on principle, against the existence of corporations and since 90% of mainstream media is owned by 6 corporations, this is quite simply an impossibility unless you can point me to any of those news organizations who is in favour of their own termination.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2017, 05:25:24 AM by Chocolate Shake Man » Logged
Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #639 on: June 03, 2017, 08:12:28 AM »

Normally I wait until someone responds before posting again but I want to add on to what I said above (please read above as well before responding to this post as this is just merely a continuation).

I want to further discuss this idea of there being a "left voice" in the media. Let's look at some examples.

Recently, there was a horrific and monstrous attack in Manchester which left 22 dead (not including bomber), many of which were children. This despicable act was quite rightly condemned and received substantial media coverage. At the same time, during the month of May, the United States was responsible for killing 225 civilians, including 44 children in Syrian air strikes. Now, forget left and right, given the numbers, a simply honest media would have given 10 times the amount of coverage to those brutal murders than what they would to the Manchester atrocities, if not more given the direct involvement of the US. Yet there was almost no coverage of those deaths at all - and what there was certainly paled in comparison to the Manchester tragedy. Yes, in this case, the corporate (read: right wing) interests in keeping that information largely silent, was the reason for the dishonestly.

And we can also ask how many news reports are there out of the mainstream media that discuss the fact that 90% of US drone attacks kill civilians (a conservative estimate, I add) and that, according to the FBI, contribute in a substantial way to the recruitment of fundamentalist terrorists, as did the US counter-Assad policies which were known at the time to be working to establish a "caliphate by Islamic extremists in Eastern Syria."

How many reports are there on the fact that the US is a leading contributor to massive war crimes in Yemen? Or how many media reports are there that the US circumvented their own laws to support a military coup in Honduras and then continued support there as the murder rate in the country doubled? In all these cases, if international law were consistently applied, US leadership would be called for international war crimes and subject to prosecution. Does the media note that? Or do they note how if the US applied their standards to themselves, they would be receptive to the idea of an outside country invading Washington, deposing the country of its democratically elected leader, and replacing him with a person open to the invading country's wishes (I should say here that I don't support this idea, just as I don't support US international endeavours that carry out the same action. I'm suggesting that an honest media would point out the massive hypocrisy here and they almost never do).

Does the media make the case that the central reason for Mexican migration are US-led NAFTA policies that by and large are the most harmful to Mexican labour? Or do they make the case that the most substantial contributor to environmental degradation are profit-led economic systems (in other words capitalism?) or do they merely call for a more regulated system (the moderate centre-left to centre-right position)?

I do think the answer to these questions are clear. If the media were honest, these issues would dominate the media coverage. Instead, the best we get from the liberal establishment end of things are Russia, Kathy Griffin, etc. But that's not left wing and it doesn't speak to the genuine issues that exist.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2017, 12:58:01 PM by Chocolate Shake Man » Logged
mtaber
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« Reply #640 on: June 03, 2017, 01:08:04 PM »

Geez... all I'm saying is that the "liberal vs. conservative" gap is ever-widening.  And that the news media contributes to the widening of this gap by taking sides, usually blatently.  There is very little that could be considered "common middle ground".
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SMiLE Brian
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« Reply #641 on: June 03, 2017, 01:11:32 PM »

It's a lot of people like Kathy Griffin and Trump keeping our country apart. It's was so innocent when it was Rosie vs. Donald on the view.... Roll Eyes
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And production aside, Id so much rather hear a 14 year old David Marks shred some guitar on Chug-a-lug than hear a 51 year old Mike Love sing about bangin some chick in a swimming pool.-rab2591
Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #642 on: June 03, 2017, 01:15:41 PM »

Geez... all I'm saying is that the "liberal vs. conservative" gap is ever-widening.  And that the news media contributes to the widening of this gap by taking sides, usually blatently.  There is very little that could be considered "common middle ground".

They take sides on an extremely narrow political spectrum that excludes a significant aspect of political ideology. While it is a problem that the media are taking sides in the manner that they're taking them, it is not the central problem - the central problem is the exclusion of political ideologies by the media, especially when that exclusion means excluding the truth. Personally, I would not be comforted by center-right liberals and right-wing extremists finding "common middle ground" - that would not bring us any closer to the truth and would simply maneuver people into occupying a pretty lousy space on the political spectrum. Somewhere between center-right and extreme right should not be a goal.

EDIT: Just  made an edit from "While it is a problem that the media are taking sides" to "While it is a problem that the media are taking sides in the manner that they're taking them." The reason why I made this change is because I think it is important that the media does take a side - namely, the side that the truth is on. Unfortunately, when people make a call for unbiased, objective media they are not making a call for a more honest media but rather a media that balances the true information with countering false information in the name of balance and objectivity - as in presenting both the idea that climate change is man-made and the idea that it's not. This so-called non-biased perspective is in fact completely biased, and it is also presenting a false narrative and a distorted version of reality. So I do think that it is the responsibility of journalists to choose a side - namely the truthful side. But I do think that the theatrical and performative way that news outlets currently take sides is a problem too - namely because it perpetuates the sham that there is a significant divergence of opinion being given in the mainstream.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2017, 01:30:57 PM by Chocolate Shake Man » Logged
The Lovester
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« Reply #643 on: June 03, 2017, 02:15:41 PM »

Geez... all I'm saying is that the "liberal vs. conservative" gap is ever-widening.  And that the news media contributes to the widening of this gap by taking sides, usually blatently.  There is very little that could be considered "common middle ground".

They take sides on an extremely narrow political spectrum that excludes a significant aspect of political ideology. While it is a problem that the media are taking sides in the manner that they're taking them, it is not the central problem - the central problem is the exclusion of political ideologies by the media, especially when that exclusion means excluding the truth. Personally, I would not be comforted by center-right liberals and right-wing extremists finding "common middle ground" - that would not bring us any closer to the truth and would simply maneuver people into occupying a pretty lousy space on the political spectrum. Somewhere between center-right and extreme right should not be a goal.

EDIT: Just  made an edit from "While it is a problem that the media are taking sides" to "While it is a problem that the media are taking sides in the manner that they're taking them." The reason why I made this change is because I think it is important that the media does take a side - namely, the side that the truth is on. Unfortunately, when people make a call for unbiased, objective media they are not making a call for a more honest media but rather a media that balances the true information with countering false information in the name of balance and objectivity - as in presenting both the idea that climate change is man-made and the idea that it's not. This so-called non-biased perspective is in fact completely biased, and it is also presenting a false narrative and a distorted version of reality. So I do think that it is the responsibility of journalists to choose a side - namely the truthful side. But I do think that the theatrical and performative way that news outlets currently take sides is a problem too - namely because it perpetuates the sham that there is a significant divergence of opinion being given in the mainstream.
Unbiased media doesn't mean that it has to funnel in false information to keep everyone happy? People will always be upset at the news, I'm tired of "news" sources giving their own spins on news stories. Or, if these news outlets are going to be biased, they should explicitly state so and not present themselves as an actual news source. Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about: when Trump made the "convefe" typo. It's funny yes, but the left leaning news sites are harping on it and are just making fun it. That's fine yes, but does it really need to take up news time? And then, Fox News will say "liberal media focused on typo instead of real issues," which pisses off the right and further divides everyone.
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Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #644 on: June 03, 2017, 02:38:19 PM »

Unbiased media doesn't mean that it has to funnel in false information to keep everyone happy?

To be honest, I can't imagine what an unbiased media would even look like. At a certain level, one has to make a choice about what they do and don't consider newsworthy and that's a subjective decision. And presenting everything that happens to everyone is an impossibility (and certainly shouldn't even be a goal). Furthermore, the moment you present a real event as a "story," you are imposing a narrative onto something that never had a narrative - and how you choose to narrativize an event is a subjective decision. And we shouldn't not impose that narrative structure - that's how people understand and process information. Simply getting a barrage of facts would be an incoherent mess and nobody would be able to understand anything. Insofar as a non-biased media is even possible (and at the moment I am unconvinced it is for the above reasons), I don't even think it's a particularly helpful model in making the population more knowledgeable about the world in which they live.

Quote
Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about: when Trump made the "convefe" typo. It's funny yes, but the left leaning news sites are harping on it and are just making fun it. That's fine yes, but does it really need to take up news time? And then, Fox News will say "liberal media focused on typo instead of real issues," which pisses off the right and further divides everyone.

Of course, the media is a farce in general and very rarely do any of the outlets focus on the real issues. The fact is that the liberal establishment will always be superficial in its presentation of information and Fox as a network expressing explicitly reactionary views will simply oppose whatever the liberal establishment presents as a matter of principle, even if they happened to say the same thing the day before. The whole thing is a circus.

EDIT: Just to build on what I said above, I don't think it much matters what the liberal establishments say and how they say it, Fox News will present it in a way that "pisses off the right" - that's essentially their function, as reactionaries. But, yes, I agree that the liberal establishment media does make it easy for them.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2017, 03:38:00 PM by Chocolate Shake Man » Logged
mtaber
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« Reply #645 on: June 03, 2017, 04:51:58 PM »

Lets just agree that things are f-ed up...
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Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #646 on: June 03, 2017, 07:18:28 PM »

Lets just agree that things are f-ed up...

No doubt, things are  bad. But I do think there are possibilities for making things better. Part of that means though identifying the real problems and, from there, considering how to bring about a productive change.
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SMiLE Brian
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« Reply #647 on: June 04, 2017, 02:28:39 AM »

We need the BBs sitcom on tv for healing! Wink
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And production aside, Id so much rather hear a 14 year old David Marks shred some guitar on Chug-a-lug than hear a 51 year old Mike Love sing about bangin some chick in a swimming pool.-rab2591
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« Reply #648 on: June 08, 2017, 08:11:54 AM »

The US over the last 40 years has drifted so far to the right tbat even the country's liberals hate liberals.
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Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #649 on: June 08, 2017, 10:35:01 AM »

The US over the last 40 years has drifted so far to the right tbat even the country's liberals hate liberals.

Agreed but it's unfortunately not surprising. When you actively destroy left wing and labour movements, people have no choice but to align themselves with the ideologies that remain.
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