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Author Topic: Politics: 2016 Lame Duck and 2017 New Administration  (Read 104104 times)
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Emily
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« Reply #475 on: February 04, 2017, 06:45:31 AM »

Trump twitted: "the opinion of this so-called judge, which essentially takes law enforcement away from our country, is ridiculous and will be overturned!"
This is the aspect of Trump that is most dangerous.
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the captain
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« Reply #476 on: February 04, 2017, 07:01:25 AM »

I like "twitted," by the way.

One of my huge issues with him is exactly this: how he deals with challenges to him, his positions, etc. For example, on this EO in question, I've said all along that while I think it's stupid, I don't necessarily know that it's illegal. Opinion has been mixed on that question, from what I'm reading. But the point is, it's not a slam dunk. So ignoring that I would have also recommended a more measured path to executing the order in the first place, getting more counsel and softening the landing for it if the decision was to move ahead--ignoring that--why is it that Judge Robart has to be a "so-called judge?"

Everyone who has disagreed with him is weak, dumb, a failure, unqualified, etc. The president hears criticism and responds with childish, personal attacks.

For this, the president is an adolescent buffoon.
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the captain
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« Reply #477 on: February 04, 2017, 07:05:06 AM »

On another topic, the president signed a memorandum that will help do away with the "fiduciary rule," which requires brokers to act in their clients' best interests (rather than the brokers' own best interests, e.g. highest profits or commissions) in providing retirement investment advice. I've never understood the controversy about the fiduciary rule.

If someone in the financial sector can explain to me why it's a bad thing, or an onerous regulation, that a financial advisor give advice in the best interest of his or her client, I'd appreciate it. Is it a fear of it being hard to prove in the event of a lawsuit or something?
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« Reply #478 on: February 04, 2017, 07:51:35 AM »

Nearly $100k of taxpayer money spent on a private business trip by Eric Trump.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/eric-trumps-trip-to-uruguay-cost-taxpayers-97830-in-hotel-bills/2017/02/03/ababd64e-e95c-11e6-bf6f-301b6b443624_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_ericsecret-413pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.d0fafd320d3c

"It was a high-profile jaunt out of the country for Eric, the fresh-faced executive of the Trump Organization who, like his father, pledged to keep the company separate from the presidency. ... The Uruguayan trip shows how the government is unavoidably entangled with the Trump company as a result of the president’s refusal to divest his ownership stake. In this case, government agencies are forced to pay to support business operations that ultimately help to enrich the president himself. Though the Trumps have pledged a division of business and government, they will nevertheless depend on the publicly funded protection granted to the first family as they travel the globe promoting their brand."
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bachelorofbullets
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« Reply #479 on: February 04, 2017, 10:01:27 PM »

There was a story in our local paper today about just this topic, focused on a small city about 45 minutes south of the Twin Cities metro. It is closer to your perspective than mine. Thought you might enjoy it.

http://m.startribune.com/some-in-faribault-see-sense-not-bias-in-an-immigration-timeout/412636983/

Yeah, the problem with the whole assimilation thing is that it only works if the immigrants want it to happen (like my grandparents only spoke English the day they arrived and never looked back).  Some of today's immigrants want to build their own community and keep it their own, which I hope you can see is a problem.  It didn't work in Europe.
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the captain
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« Reply #480 on: February 05, 2017, 05:23:30 AM »

My contention is that it's just a matter of time, though. I'm told many of my great-grandparents' peers never learned much English. They and their families and friends spoke Norwegian, danish and (unpopularly) German. Went to churches that held services exclusively in those languages. Lived and socialized in those ethnic enclaves.

Their kids went to public schools. Learned English. In some cases very controversially intermarried (a swede and a dame? Shocking.).

And by my parents' generation, it's all a memory. By mine, it's a curiosity of history.

The first generation probably won't assimilate: they rarely do. But they'll die: they always do. And the American born will be increasingly assimilated.
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the captain
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« Reply #481 on: February 05, 2017, 05:26:34 AM »

The legal process continues on the 7-country travel EO: an appeals court refused the administration's request to overturn the Washington judge's temporary halt of the temporary ban. We will get new responses from each side today and tomorrow, respectively..
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Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #482 on: February 05, 2017, 07:50:34 AM »

Yeah, the problem with the whole assimilation thing is that it only works if the immigrants want it to happen (like my grandparents only spoke English the day they arrived and never looked back).  Some of today's immigrants want to build their own community and keep it their own, which I hope you can see is a problem.  It didn't work in Europe.

It is important to keep in mind that the United States has played an active role rendering this part of the world unstable. People who migrate from that part of the world to the US do it in no small part to escape from the instability that the US has played a significant part in causing and continues to cause, and then once they flee they are then asked to change their habits, beliefs, and customs to suit the needs of the country who has just actively created the conditions that forced them to leave their country of origin. I hope you can see that that is a problem and maybe something we should focus on before whether or not these people are going to drink at the office party.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2017, 07:51:30 AM by Chocolate Shake Man » Logged
the captain
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« Reply #483 on: February 05, 2017, 09:13:05 AM »

As we prepare for something else to replace it, NYT published this interesting recap of some successes, failures, and too-soon-to-tells regarding the ACA.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/05/upshot/grading-obamacare-successes-failures-and-incompletes.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=second-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news
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the captain
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« Reply #484 on: February 05, 2017, 09:19:59 AM »

Another of those hard-to-categorize dynamics where the administration is so contrary to the historical GOP (or establishment politicians in general of either party). Trump praising Putin, I think we're used to, but his apparent critique of the U.S. and painting an equivalence between Putin's Russia and the US is awfully unusual from Washington.

"Putin's a killer," Bill O'Reilly says.

"“There are a lot of killers,” Trump said. “We’ve got a lot of killers. What do you think? Our country’s so innocent?”

It's more akin to what we hear from Chris Hedges, Noam Chomsky, or Glenn Greenwald than any mainstream Republican or Democrat.

www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/02/05/gop-senators-blanch-at-trumps-latest-defense-of-putin/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_pwr-putin-1111am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.d9aebab005d6
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« Reply #485 on: February 05, 2017, 09:38:40 AM »

Another of those hard-to-categorize dynamics where the administration is so contrary to the historical GOP (or establishment politicians in general of either party). Trump praising Putin, I think we're used to, but his apparent critique of the U.S. and painting an equivalence between Putin's Russia and the US is awfully unusual from Washington.

"Putin's a killer," Bill O'Reilly says.

"“There are a lot of killers,” Trump said. “We’ve got a lot of killers. What do you think? Our country’s so innocent?”

It's more akin to what we hear from Chris Hedges, Noam Chomsky, or Glenn Greenwald than any mainstream Republican or Democrat.

www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/02/05/gop-senators-blanch-at-trumps-latest-defense-of-putin/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_pwr-putin-1111am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.d9aebab005d6


Yes, and here is at least where we can have some optimism. Despite the incredibly awful policies and hateful rhetoric, I still see more potential in-roads and potential room for conversation with the current version of the extreme right than I did with, say, the Bush Republicans or the Romney Republicans. Forget what Trump really believes for a second. Let's say many of his supporters agree with the rhetoric that Wall Street has had a corrupting influence on American life, that NAFTA is bad, that TPP is bad, that our foreign entanglements are bad, and that we shouldn't purposefully escalate violence with other dangerous countries. If they do agree with that, then that's a great start - and a much greater start than what I have seen from the extreme right in a long time. Obviously that doesn't mean you accept the misogyny and racism and bizarre adherence to de-regulated capitalism, but it also doesn't mean that you write these people off completely because it might mean losing a lot of productive common ground.
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the captain
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« Reply #486 on: February 05, 2017, 09:41:50 AM »

Forget what Trump really believes for a second.

Lord knows he will. ba-dum dum (crash).

Thanks, folks, I'll be here all week. These are the jokes. Tip your servers.
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Emily
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« Reply #487 on: February 05, 2017, 11:19:47 AM »

My contention is that it's just a matter of time, though. I'm told many of my great-grandparents' peers never learned much English. They and their families and friends spoke Norwegian, danish and (unpopularly) German. Went to churches that held services exclusively in those languages. Lived and socialized in those ethnic enclaves.

Their kids went to public schools. Learned English. In some cases very controversially intermarried (a swede and a dame? Shocking.).

And by my parents' generation, it's all a memory. By mine, it's a curiosity of history.

The first generation probably won't assimilate: they rarely do. But they'll die: they always do. And the American born will be increasingly assimilated.
Just to add to this: my mother's parents immigrated from Ukraine (and Poland but she was Ukrainian, ethnically, and there's a fuzzy border thing around there).  They lived in a Slavic enclave surrounded by tons of relatives and all spoke Ukrainian to each other. My grandparents came when they were in their teens (met and married here). They never learned fluent English. They never went to anything but the Orthodox Church. Never learned to cook or enjoy anything but gross boiled cabbage, pirogie, lots of potatoes, beets, etc. They encouraged their kids to stay and marry in the neighborhood. None did. None of their grandkids speak any Ukrainian and none particularly like boiled cabbage or go to the Orthodox Church.
My dad's family (all except for 1 great great grandparent- the Protestant) has been in the US for 150 years. One shockingly married the Protestant after the first generation. After that, until my dad's generation, every single member in the whole tree can be traced back to Ireland. Mainly lived in an Irish enclave in Chicago. Papists. Pretty much everything said above about Muslims was said about papists.
In New England there were schools run in the French language and in the Portuguese language for French (Canadian) and Portuguese immigrants for a few generations each. The North End in Boston is still an Italian enclave and the South End still Irish (though in the last 20 years both are being priced out and now they are becoming rich people enclaves). The papists showed no interest in assimilating. In NY, too, there are Irish, Italian, East European, Chinese, Vietnamese and Jewish enclaves. No particular attempts at assimilation, though it still happens, for the most part with younger generations. The average age in the enclave keeps going up as younger people leave. Though some stay around.
If your ancestors arrived during a wave from their part of the world, odds are they didn't work too hard to assimilate either. But their kids did.

Do people get terribly upset about the Orthodox Jews in NY who have lived in a tight enclave with their own schools, shops, community centers, rites, and very closed communities for 5-6 generations now? They used to. But they got over it because it doesn't hurt anyone else.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2017, 11:29:34 AM by Emily » Logged
Emily
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« Reply #488 on: February 05, 2017, 11:20:23 AM »

Yeah, the problem with the whole assimilation thing is that it only works if the immigrants want it to happen (like my grandparents only spoke English the day they arrived and never looked back).  Some of today's immigrants want to build their own community and keep it their own, which I hope you can see is a problem.  It didn't work in Europe.

It is important to keep in mind that the United States has played an active role rendering this part of the world unstable. People who migrate from that part of the world to the US do it in no small part to escape from the instability that the US has played a significant part in causing and continues to cause, and then once they flee they are then asked to change their habits, beliefs, and customs to suit the needs of the country who has just actively created the conditions that forced them to leave their country of origin. I hope you can see that that is a problem and maybe something we should focus on before whether or not these people are going to drink at the office party.
And this.
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Emily
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« Reply #489 on: February 05, 2017, 11:31:28 AM »

Another of those hard-to-categorize dynamics where the administration is so contrary to the historical GOP (or establishment politicians in general of either party). Trump praising Putin, I think we're used to, but his apparent critique of the U.S. and painting an equivalence between Putin's Russia and the US is awfully unusual from Washington.

"Putin's a killer," Bill O'Reilly says.

"“There are a lot of killers,” Trump said. “We’ve got a lot of killers. What do you think? Our country’s so innocent?”

It's more akin to what we hear from Chris Hedges, Noam Chomsky, or Glenn Greenwald than any mainstream Republican or Democrat.

www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/02/05/gop-senators-blanch-at-trumps-latest-defense-of-putin/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_pwr-putin-1111am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.d9aebab005d6


Yes, and here is at least where we can have some optimism. Despite the incredibly awful policies and hateful rhetoric, I still see more potential in-roads and potential room for conversation with the current version of the extreme right than I did with, say, the Bush Republicans or the Romney Republicans. Forget what Trump really believes for a second. Let's say many of his supporters agree with the rhetoric that Wall Street has had a corrupting influence on American life, that NAFTA is bad, that TPP is bad, that our foreign entanglements are bad, and that we shouldn't purposefully escalate violence with other dangerous countries. If they do agree with that, then that's a great start - and a much greater start than what I have seen from the extreme right in a long time. Obviously that doesn't mean you accept the misogyny and racism and bizarre adherence to de-regulated capitalism, but it also doesn't mean that you write these people off completely because it might mean losing a lot of productive common ground.
Except they support some of the same policies for different reasons (except there's some overlap on free trade agreements) so the common ground is illusory. 
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the captain
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« Reply #490 on: February 05, 2017, 11:41:49 AM »

Sometimes common ground regardless of reason could be worthwhile.

But in this instance, I'm not looking at it as a point of common ground with the president at all. I'm more interested in it as a curiosity, the awkward complication in his own administration and party. I've written him off entirely in terms of anything related to the (im)morality of the country's behavior around the world. We know enough about the president to know how moral he is. I look at this as an accidental bit of truth, but not a harbringer of change. He's not apologizing for the US's behavior, but rather he's using it to validate Putin's.
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Emily
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« Reply #491 on: February 05, 2017, 11:54:53 AM »

Sometimes common ground regardless of reason could be worthwhile.

But in this instance, I'm not looking at it as a point of common ground with the president at all. I'm more interested in it as a curiosity, the awkward complication in his own administration and party. I've written him off entirely in terms of anything related to the (im)morality of the country's behavior around the world. We know enough about the president to know how moral he is. I look at this as an accidental bit of truth, but not a harbringer of change. He's not apologizing for the US's behavior, but rather he's using it to validate Putin's.
Common ground for different reasons can be useful in a particular instance, but the different reasons won't coincide in enough instances to create ongoing commonalities.
So, I don't think there's a general principle (on either side really) that we shouldn't purposefully escalate violence with other dangerous countries. There are some who think we shouldn't purposefully escalate violence in general; there are some who think we should be close white-power allies with Russia; there are those who think we shouldn't pick on Russia because they are dangerous; there are those who think motivations for criticizing Russia are hypocritical or historical knee-jerk. So some of these can get together and agree we should step back from Russia (I don't agree at all with the Cohen/Greenwald take on Russia, btw), and that will be nice for them in the instance, but won't represent general foreign policy common ground. Similar with choices in the Middle East.
But - regarding your Trump point - it's a very interesting position. He's got a small collection of appointed and elected people who agree with him, or at least with most of what he's done since elected, and a much larger collection of those who disagree to some degree, and are trying to figure out how to work with him and what he really wants. It's a bizarre administration and time in history.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2017, 11:58:48 AM by Emily » Logged
bachelorofbullets
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« Reply #492 on: February 05, 2017, 01:27:17 PM »

Quote
Do people get terribly upset about the Orthodox Jews in NY who have lived in a tight enclave with their own schools, shops, community centers, rites, and very closed communities for 5-6 generations now? They used to. But they got over it because it doesn't hurt anyone else.

I'm glad you brought this up, because Orthodox Jews do still live apart to a certain degree.  They live in Jewish neighborhoods and only attend Jewish schools.  BUT...they only represent 10% of the Jewish population.  What may be more important is that the U.S. has maintained an unshakable alliance with Israel for 50+ years.  You can't say that about countries that impose sharia law on it's population.  They are traditionally enemies of the U.S. for good reason.
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the captain
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« Reply #493 on: February 05, 2017, 01:36:29 PM »

Quote
Do people get terribly upset about the Orthodox Jews in NY who have lived in a tight enclave with their own schools, shops, community centers, rites, and very closed communities for 5-6 generations now? They used to. But they got over it because it doesn't hurt anyone else.

I'm glad you brought this up, because Orthodox Jews do still live apart to a certain degree.  They live in Jewish neighborhoods and only attend Jewish schools.  BUT...they only represent 10% of the Jewish population.  What may be more important is that the U.S. has maintained an unshakable alliance with Israel for 50+ years.  You can't say that about countries that impose sharia law on it's population.  They are traditionally enemies of the U.S. for good reason.

The US has been in an "unshakable alliance" with Saudi Arabia for more than 80 years.
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Emily
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« Reply #494 on: February 05, 2017, 01:54:34 PM »

The US and its Western European allies created both Israel and Saudi Arabia. US alliances have nothing to do with the culture of the people or the form of government that they live under, as long as that government Is willing to do business with US corporations on the US' terms.
In any case, I'm not clear on your point. Is it that because we are allies with Israel, Jews in a Brooklyn enclave (very few of whom are Israeli) should feel no pressure to assimilate and it's quite all right that they keep kosher and have arranged marriages but Persians in another enclave, because we are not allies with Iran, must stop keeping halal and must completely change their culture instantly or they should be banned? Is this your proposition?
The essential point here is that you are responding to the same fears that Americans have had regarding every wave of immigrants since the founding of the country (since before the founding of the country) and those fears have consistently proved wrong, and they've already been proven wrong in this case by millions of Muslim Americans.
You disregarded the rest of my post and the captain's points. Do you have any evidence that your concerns are different in any substantial way from those expressed by your forebears?

https://www.nps.gov/liho/learn/historyculture/knownothingparty.htm
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/immigrants-conspiracies-and-secret-society-launched-american-nativism-180961915/
https://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2014/06/20/old-yellow-peril-anti-chinese-posters/
https://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2008/10/06/negative-stereotypes-of-the-irish/
https://www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/383248/
http://web.uvic.ca/~ayh/Lee.pdf

Shiny and new: http://www.npr.org/2017/02/04/513469442/bostons-immigration-history-repeats-itself-in-trumps-policies

The more I think of the above statement, the weirder it is: none of the Muslim countries are "traditionally enemies of the US".


« Last Edit: February 05, 2017, 02:20:17 PM by Emily » Logged
Emily
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« Reply #495 on: February 05, 2017, 02:18:30 PM »


Everyone who has disagreed with him is weak, dumb, a failure, unqualified, etc. The president hears criticism and responds with childish, personal attacks.

For this, the president is an adolescent buffoon.
Similarly adolescent is how he calls every criticism of him, personal or professional, "unfair".
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« Reply #496 on: February 05, 2017, 09:08:12 PM »

I jotted this down today after being inspired by one of the super bowl TV commercials...

Dumb T. [Trumpty] Wanted his ‘wall’.
But Dumb T. [Trumpty] would stumble and fall.
None of Trump’s ‘asses’. Nor his hoard of ‘yes men’.
Knew how to put ‘the Donald’ together again.


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"Add Some...Music...To Your Day.  I do.  It's the only way to fly.  Well...what was I gonna put here?  An apple a day keeps the doctor away?  Hum me a few bars."   Lee Marshall [2014]

Donald  TRUMP!  ...  Is TOAST.  "What a disaster."  "Overrated?"... ... ..."BIG LEAGUE."  "Lots of people are saying it"  "I will tell you that."   Collusion, Money Laundering, Treason.   B'Bye Dirty Donnie!!!  Adios!!!  Bon Voyage!!!  Toodles!!!  Move yourself...SPANKY!!!  Jail awaits.  It's NO "Witch Hunt". There IS Collusion...and worse.  The Russian Mafia!!  Conspiracies!!  Fraud!!  This racist is goin' down...and soon.  Good Riddance.  And take the kids.
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« Reply #497 on: February 05, 2017, 09:31:16 PM »

rofl
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« Reply #498 on: February 06, 2017, 02:46:50 AM »

I jotted this down today after being inspired by one of the super bowl TV commercials...

Dumb T. [Trumpty] Wanted his ‘wall’.
But Dumb T. [Trumpty] would stumble and fall.
None of Trump’s ‘asses’. Nor his hoard of ‘yes men’.
Knew how to put ‘the Donald’ together again.

 LOL LOL LOL

[My one contribution to this thread]
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« Reply #499 on: February 09, 2017, 07:38:34 AM »

Quote
Do people get terribly upset about the Orthodox Jews in NY who have lived in a tight enclave with their own schools, shops, community centers, rites, and very closed communities for 5-6 generations now? They used to. But they got over it because it doesn't hurt anyone else.

I'm glad you brought this up, because Orthodox Jews do still live apart to a certain degree.  They live in Jewish neighborhoods and only attend Jewish schools.  BUT...they only represent 10% of the Jewish population.  What may be more important is that the U.S. has maintained an unshakable alliance with Israel for 50+ years.  You can't say that about countries that impose sharia law on it's population.  They are traditionally enemies of the U.S. for good reason.

The US has been in an "unshakable alliance" with Saudi Arabia for more than 80 years.

Do you really think Saudis are U.S. allies?  15/19 9-11 hijackers were Saudis.  There is a difference between being an ally (like Israel) and maintaining a marriage of convenience based on regional conflict and oil. 
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