Part 2 of interview with Mike book collaborator James S. Hirsch

[tpesky]

Carl had seemingly lost confidence in himself and the boys to sing the challenging material. Al had to really push him into the 93 tour and even doing SOS in concert.  It's too bad, Brian backed by Carl, Al, and Matt would have nailed a mid 90s PS tour had they put their best into it.

[HeyJude]

I really wish someone could get access to folks close to Carl to find out what Carl's deal was, especially in the 90s. No personal or family stuff, no health stuff. But just concerning his attitude towards the band. It definitely seems like Carl, even before becoming ill, abdicated some leadership in the band, and also seemed skittish about doing anything other than the hits in concert.

I think Carl was resigned to audiences not wanting the deep cuts. I think he had some justification in this, as it was ironically just after he died that Brian went out on tour and capitalized on the sort of "indie/hipster" cred the band was gaining thanks mostly to Brian and "Smile" and all of that, but that ended up extending to other areas of the band's deep catalog.

Had Carl been around in the 2000s, I think he would have maybe finally felt comfortable doing deep cuts and getting a bit more esoteric on stage and in the studio.

It's hard to say. His musical taste was, *very arguably*, skewing more conservative as he got older. The "Beckley-Lamm-Wilson" stuff is certainly in many ways the antithesis of something like "You're Still a Mystery" both musically and production-wise.

I also think there was still some interpersonal and political things going on within the band and between Carl and Brian that made even those late-era sessions perhaps not so easy.

But in terms of the Paley stuff, we really only have 2-3 songs to go off of. Maybe Carl just didn't like aspects of those songs and nothing more. Remember too that we've never even heard the version of "Soul Searchin'" that he added his vocals to. I love "You're Still a Mystery", but that probably wasn't going to be a hit single. I think maybe the sticking point is that they shouldn't have been eyeing a hit single at that stage and really embraced what old fogey artists like Dylan and McCartney and all of them were becoming, which is "albums" artists exclusively.

[HeyJude]

I've often wondered what Carl's issue was with the material, and why he apparently vetoed a PS Live tour (per the Carlin book)...

I think part of it was, and this is talked about in one of the books (perhaps Carlin), that Carl didn't think Brian could do it. And I can't 100% disagree with Carl's sentiment if we're putting ourselves back into 1996 or 1997. Brian hadn't done much touring or live performances. If Carl had been around, he would have seen a few 1998 performances from Brian that weren't too hot either.

I also don't think the BB touring band of the circa 1996-97 timeframe could have pulled off PS that well (let's be honest, as great as the 1993 Paramount show is and the GV boxed set was in general, some of those songs sound a little bit limp with the 90s tinkly keyboards, not to mention Kowalski's drumming). That's not to say they couldn't have augmented the touring band to do a PS tour, or just used a different band. But it's probably another factor as well that may have weighed on Carl in considering a PS tour.

I think doing PS live, or doing deep cuts in general, just needed the proper time and context. I think Carl just missed that sweet spot by a few years.

My criticism of Carl nixing a PS tour circa 1996/97 would be other things, such as the fact that Carl and Al could have taken up a bunch of Brian's leads. They could have had Brian sit in more with the touring band to "road test" Brian a little more, and so on. So while I think *some* of Carl's potential misgivings about a PS tour with Brian in the late 90s were justified, I also think they *could have* done it and it *could* have been good.

[guitarfool2002]

So much of the discussions in general revolve around the notion of "what if..." and "if only..." sentiments, a lot of them centered around Mike and Brian working together again specifically Mike wanting that to happen free of "those around Brian", and what I can't help but notice as that elephant in the room is that it did happen, and it turned into a debacle.

So I plug in this "what if?" scenario: What if the new material being worked up by Brian, Don Was, Paley, and Mike actually did develop into something concrete for the Beach Boys? Would it have been worse than what we got instead? "Summer Of Love" and Stamos playing electronic drums on the beach on Baywatch? A farce.

[guitarfool2002]

In terms of Brian's production chops circa 1994-95, was he the Brian from 1965 in terms of studio work? There may have been a need for slow steps at first, a re-introduction perhaps just like a baseball player who hasn't played for several years staging a comeback getting their timing back and getting back into shape to play, etc. But ultimately I'm left as many fans were I'm sure with the feeling that the band squandered something big and went for something that backfired instead.

And I'd suggest the "event" of Brian returning to cutting records with the band would have superseded a lot of other issues anyway. How about not only Brian returning, but Brian and Mike writing songs together again - And consider Brian's involvement was key to the Stars & Stripes project, which led to Willie Nelson agreeing to the project, which led to the credibility within the country music world that brought other artists like Lorrie Morgan into the project. Brian was on board, his condition was getting Willie on board, and after Willie signed up the rest of the artists who agreed followed him and the project happened.

So whether Brian's production chops were 100% or not, the credibility and recognition of him being involved was still viable.

And as I already posted, instead of doing more with him, Brian was put on the bench as a reserve player for the BB's. And a few short years later, separate from the band and Mike's ideas on touring the band after Carl's passing, he had a new album, TV specials and appearances, and a solo tour under his belt. He hasn't stopped since.

[HeyJude]

I think, especially by the 90s and into today, the group needs some person outside of the group that's kind of "running" the thing and clapping their hands and saying "okay, here's what we're gonna do." Not so much in terms of arrangements or musical production, where Brian can still have a stronger hand.

But the Joe Thomas *type* is exactly the type they need. A guy with cash and organizational skills, and (at least up to 2012) a good, easy going relationship with all of the guys.

It doesn't have to actually *be* Joe Thomas, but it can't just be a random person either. Don Was served a similar function in the 90s and *couldn't* get much of anything group-wise actually done.

[guitarfool2002]

Specific to Phil and Mark and the discussions with Jim Hirsch:

This is a post from another topic here about a board member's experience at a book signing in the last few days that featured Mike and his wife Jackie. The parts I'm putting in bold are along the lines of some of my reactions posted here in this thread about Part 2 of the interview.

I thought I would bump this.   I was at Mike's book signing yesterday in Seattle.  Horrific weather at the time with traffic backed up everywhere in the city due to accidents and sporting events.  A few thoughts are below....

The event started with a gentleman asking Mike 15 or 20 questions about his time in the BB's up to why he wrote the book.  Then there were probably another 20 questions from the audience.  Probably a total of 30 to 35 people there to get a book signed by Mike.  It was very casual and I thought Mike presented himself well (his wife Jackie was also there).  

Just as in the book, Mike did not pull any punches with regard to Melinda.  However the worst "verbage" was for Joe Thomas...whew....not hard seeing why C50 ended so badly.  From his point of view, a lot of promises were made up front that just weren't kept.  I felt sad hearing this, but also felt somewhat uncomfortable sitting 3 seats away from Jackie hearing Mike say the Melinda stuff.  I know the Melinda stuff is attached to Mike working again with Brian so I get why the two are always brought up in the same sentence.  Just feels weird hearing someone talking so negative about someone else's wife.

A ton of stupid goofy questions from the audience. Best question I heard was from a guy who asked Mike about his relationship with Al.  Very complicated answer but the guy said he thought Mike and Al were a lot alike going back to their TM days, sitting in the front of the plane together, lack of heavy drug use,  etc etc.  Mike initially seemed very surprised that someone would think that he and Al are alike.  He then corrected himself and said, you know what, we are alike in the ways you described.  Mike then went on to say the whole "your fired" letter did not surprise him with how the relationship between Mike/Brian/wives/Joe Thomas etc had deteriorated but it really hurt him that Al was also a part of the letter.  Lastly in a very comforting way, he said he's not surprised that Al feels tied to Brian as it was Brian who got him in the group initially at the start after their high school days together and I'm all right with that.  No mention of the post 98 lawsuits against Al in any of his answers.  My back was KILLING me, and was having to get up and stand in the back.  I had my hand up to ask a question but never got called on.  Mike's wife is a HUGE Cubs fan and game 5 was starting in 30 minutes so everyone was kinda rushed through book signing.

It was a fun couple of hours

My point was and is if Mike's issue is working with Brian again, this kind of thing does absolutely nothing toward facilitating such a working relationship between the two cousins.

The old adage, you cannot have it both ways applies here.

[HeyJude]

It seems as if, post-C50, while Mike will still lament not getting to write with Brian, he has given up actually trying to (not that he ever tried hard to going back into the previous decades). Four solid years of insulting your bandmate's wife, comparing her to arguably the biggest villain in the band's history and one of the biggest villains in the history of modern popular music (who could one argue is worse? Maybe Stan Polley with Badfinger?). Mike isn't dumb, he knows he's not moving the band closer to reconciling.

I think he doesn't like Melinda (duh of course), never wanted to continue the reunion, and the way C50 played out gave him the chance to wash his hands of the whole thing *and* try to claim it's all someone else's fault.

[guitarfool2002]

It seems as if, post-C50, while Mike will still lament not getting to write with Brian, he has given up actually trying to (not that he ever tried hard to going back into the previous decades). Four solid years of insulting your bandmate's wife, comparing her to arguably the biggest villain in the band's history and one of the biggest villains in the history of modern popular music (who could one argue is worse? Maybe Stan Polley with Badfinger?). Mike isn't dumb, he knows he's not moving the band closer to reconciling.

I think he doesn't like Melinda (duh of course), never wanted to continue the reunion, and the way C50 played out gave him the chance to wash his hands of the whole thing *and* try to claim it's all someone else's fault.

Yet in Part 2 of the interview with Jim Hirsch, that's not the message being conveyed. In fact it was quite the opposite, with the suggestions being made how much Mike wants to reconcile with Brian and get back to writing songs, how great it would be to have the two cousins share a stage again, how it could and should happen "if only..." it was the two men with no one else.

And it comes back to not being able to have it both ways. Or suggest one thing while actions and words suggest something else entirely.

[HeyJude]

I think Mike did the same "if only we could be writing together" thing going back many years prior to C50, and I think the fact that he walked away from it and also, according to people on the scene during the tour, made no attempts to write with Brian with no Melinda around nor any other potential interlopers, suggests to me that he has always found *talking* about being with Brian easier than actually doing it.

Mike wouldn't come across as well in interviews today (or in past years) if he expressed a "Eh, f**k it, I guess it would be nice to write with Brian, but it ain't gonna happen and I don't care anymore" sort of attitude. The way it is, he gets (or attempts to portray) the best of both worlds. He doesn't have to *actually* deal with Brian or Melinda or anyone else being in charge of anything. He gets to still be in charge of his own thing, while claiming he'd love to work with Brian.

His weird mixed/ambivalent feelings and statements about Al (and lack of discussing Al in many cases) indicates his main goal is not to reunited all of the band members, and certainly not to keep them reunited.

[guitarfool2002]

That's where it comes off as appropriate for two old adages: You can't have it both ways, and actions can speak louder than words. But in this case, the words of Part 2 combined with Mike's words as recent as the last few days show something of a disconnect. A disconnect from the reality of the situation, perhaps?

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I think, especially by the 90s and into today, the group needs some person outside of the group that's kind of "running" the thing and clapping their hands and saying "okay, here's what we're gonna do." Not so much in terms of arrangements or musical production, where Brian can still have a stronger hand.

But the Joe Thomas *type* is exactly the type they need. A guy with cash and organizational skills, and (at least up to 2012) a good, easy going relationship with all of the guys.

It doesn't have to actually *be* Joe Thomas, but it can't just be a random person either. Don Was served a similar function in the 90s and *couldn't* get much of anything group-wise actually done.

Agreed..and the organizational aspect IMHO is key.

[guitarfool2002]

What would such a person even organize at this point in 2016 beyond archival projects? Brian is playing a tour which has sold out over the past year, and just did a triumphant show at Royal Albert Hall playing Pet Sounds to standing ovations from a packed house. 2015 saw a new album, a tour, a movie, and each was well-received. 2016 has the Pet Sounds tour, which is still selling out and receiving standing ovations from those packed houses, and his book was just released also to wide acclaim. The future Pet Sounds dates are already booked into 2017. He has the best touring band of musicians I've personally ever heard play who can simply knock this material out of the park on a nightly basis and do it with the utmost groove, feel, and respect, and he also has Beach Boys Al and Blondie delivering the goods every night they perform. It's Brian doing it as Brian and it's hitting on all cylinders.

Maybe I'm missing where the benefit would be for him to join Mike's band or have Mike and Bruce on an album with him doing BB's remakes, or whatever else would be organized. I'd say that ship has already sailed and Brian is now cruising in his own luxury yacht at this point, enjoying the hell out of it with good people on board. Sail Away indeed.

[The LEGENDARY OSD]

What would such a person even organize at this point in 2016 beyond archival projects? Brian is playing a tour which has sold out over the past year, and just did a triumphant show at Royal Albert Hall playing Pet Sounds to standing ovations from a packed house. 2015 saw a new album, a tour, a movie, and each was well-received. 2016 has the Pet Sounds tour, which is still selling out and receiving standing ovations from those packed houses, and his book was just released also to wide acclaim. The future Pet Sounds dates are already booked into 2017. He has the best touring band of musicians I've personally ever heard play who can simply knock this material out of the park on a nightly basis and do it with the utmost groove, feel, and respect, and he also has Beach Boys Al and Blondie delivering the goods every night they perform. It's Brian doing it as Brian and it's hitting on all cylinders.

Maybe I'm missing where the benefit would be for him to join Mike's band or have Mike and Bruce on an album with him doing BB's remakes, or whatever else would be organized. I'd say that ship has already sailed and Brian is now cruising in his own luxury yacht at this point, enjoying the hell out of it with good people on board. Sail Away indeed.

           V E R Y   W E L L  S A I D .

[Lonely Summer]

It seems as if, post-C50, while Mike will still lament not getting to write with Brian, he has given up actually trying to (not that he ever tried hard to going back into the previous decades). Four solid years of insulting your bandmate's wife, comparing her to arguably the biggest villain in the band's history and one of the biggest villains in the history of modern popular music (who could one argue is worse? Maybe Stan Polley with Badfinger?). Mike isn't dumb, he knows he's not moving the band closer to reconciling.

I think he doesn't like Melinda (duh of course), never wanted to continue the reunion, and the way C50 played out gave him the chance to wash his hands of the whole thing *and* try to claim it's all someone else's fault.

In Badfinger fan circles, people often talk about Joey Molland's wife Kathie as the biggest villain in the band's history. Even her death a few years ago hasn't silenced the trash talkers.

[HeyJude]

I'd say the notion of having a "Joe Thomas" type was first raised in reference to times when the band is "together" in some sense and ready and willing to work together and simply need an organizer.

But there would certainly be huge benefits to having a *group* manager now, in the vein of a Neil Aspinall type. The idea isn't that a group manager now would be trying to shoehorn members into each other's projects (although ideally a good manager *could* get everyone back to the table for another reunion along the lines of C50). It would be about a manager working for the *brand* as much as anything else. Certainly archival projects would be one big area. But they could have a manager that could teach these guys to be nice about each other's projects. Cross promote each other's solo albums and other projects. At least teach them how to work well with each other when they're not even really working with each other. This would ideally have a large PR aspect to it, and would entail reigning Mike's negative BS in. Yes, I realize some would suggest that simply can't be done. But I think the right manager could do it, and the other board members could assert a very small amount of control over it. No big lawsuits or "we're gonna vote to strip the license tomorrow" sort of stuff. Just very moderate "play nice or the board will work towards making everyone play nice."

[HeyJude]

It seems as if, post-C50, while Mike will still lament not getting to write with Brian, he has given up actually trying to (not that he ever tried hard to going back into the previous decades). Four solid years of insulting your bandmate's wife, comparing her to arguably the biggest villain in the band's history and one of the biggest villains in the history of modern popular music (who could one argue is worse? Maybe Stan Polley with Badfinger?). Mike isn't dumb, he knows he's not moving the band closer to reconciling.

I think he doesn't like Melinda (duh of course), never wanted to continue the reunion, and the way C50 played out gave him the chance to wash his hands of the whole thing *and* try to claim it's all someone else's fault.

In Badfinger fan circles, people often talk about Joey Molland's wife Kathie as the biggest villain in the band's history. Even her death a few years ago hasn't silenced the trash talkers.

I've read a good deal on Badfinger (Dan Matovina's book primarily), watched the documentaries, so I'm definitely familiar with Joey and his wife's role in the saga.

Both have definitely been villainized. Not completely without some justification, though obviously the extremes are almost always unwarranted. And yeah, since her death, you'd think people would let that part of it go.

The Badfinger story is interesting (and beyond depressing), and part of what I wish people like Mike Love would learn is some humility. If you read the laundry list of things Mike Love is disgruntled and disenfranchised about, and then read the Badfinger story, Mike's attitude seems almost laughable. Those Badfinger guys are guys that truly got screwed. Yes, they were insanely naïve and made a lot of bad decisions, but they had low points that make most any Beach Boys story pale in comparison.

The band also has a crazy songwriting/royalty setup that's unfair almost in the *opposite* way to what Mike complains about with the Beach Boys, where all four Badfinger members plus the manager collect songwriting royalties on stuff even if they had no  hand in writing it.

Good lord, imagine how bent out of shape Mike would be if to this day the royalties (and ASCAP award-type honors) for "Good Vibrations" or "California Girls" were split between Brian, Mike, Al, a still-living Murry Wilson, and the estates of Carl and Dennis.

[guitarfool2002]

Short detour: Check any number of albums and song credits up to the present, including and especially bands, and you'll see the extremes on all sides that make Mike's issues at least comparable and able to be contrasted with others.

Two that stick out: Red Hot Chili Peppers. Check the credits, most if not all songs when John Frusciante came back into the fold (Californication onward until he left again) list all band members as co-writers. That seemed to be the way they wanted to work, as an equal partnership and team. Yet it is known that especially on albums like By The Way, Frusciante not only wrote a bulk of the music, but he also arranged and produced a lot of what is on that album, and others too. Yet he isn't given producer's credit, and apart from Kiedis' lyrics, on some tracks John gave the other members their parts to play, like Brian did or John Fogerty or even Stills back in the day. And it nearly split the band...yet the results spoke for themselves with the success of the albums. So that's one aspect.

I could be wrong but I think a bulk of the original Guns N Roses songs from "Appetite..." are credited to all band members, even though a lot of the music and lyrics were written by Izzy and Axl, in fact they'd even go away for writing sessions and come back with the songs.

Then look at The Strokes. The debut album, Is This It, was a hyped-up smash hit, spun at least three radio and video singles and put them on the map. The only official songwriter listed on the credits is lead singer Julian Casablancas. Yet listening to solo albums from Albert Hammond Jr (The guitarist with the white Strat and big hair, for those not as familiar with the band), you can plainly hear what Hammond brought to the band and the songs. It's all there from the chords to the rhythms, yet we're reading the credits and are supposed to believe the lead singer Casablancas wrote 100% of the music and lyrics?

Maybe they had some agreement or did it to dodge taxes, whatever the case...but if people don't hear Albert Hammond Jr in the songwriting, they're deaf.

Just examples from other bands with major albums that sold in the millions and how credits were given out.

[HeyJude]

The attitude of the band members, and the level of success they have attained, also of course plays a role. When everybody's already rich beyond imagination from the whole thing, it's easier to be liberal about credits. Also, when a band hasn't "hit" it big at all, they can also sometimes tend to be very democratic and "we're all in this together" about songwriting credits.

With a band like Badfinger, the problem is that they never really reaped the financial rewards they probably should have, and never attained mega-superstardom. So they were also sniping at each other (well, not so much Pete Ham apparently; but most of the others) and would get (understandably) kind of grubby about going after any money they could. It continues to this day. Original member Ron Griffiths and his replacement Joey Molland as recently as a few years ago were trading internet nastygrams with each other about old royalties. Again, I laugh at Mike's self-proclaimed disenfranchisement compared to something like Griffiths, where he discovered that his royalties on the first few albums he plays on were incorrectly being sent to Molland (who had replaced him).

With the Beach Boys, you have rather disparate personalities and not one single main writer, nor one songwriting team. The odd thing about the songwriting case with Mike is that his level of indignation has in several different cases been *so delayed.* Filing the lawsuit in the 90s was obviously delayed quite a bit (he attempt to explain this in his book), and some 20 years after *winning* the lawsuit, he has in recent years become more angry about it. It's odd because his name is on the songs, he's collecting the royalties, he has control of the BB name touring, and is insanely rich off the entire thing.

[barsone]

Hey guys, a general question back to Joe Thomas.  What was his exact "duties or job" during the Nashville/Star and Stripes Album ?

[HeyJude]

I think the back cover read "Produced by Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas" and "Executive Producer: Mike Love."

I would imagine he served a similar role compared to "Imagination", perhaps an even more prominent role since Brian wasn't exactly the ring leader of that entire project on every song.

[barsone]

I think the back cover read "Produced by Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas" and "Executive Producer: Mike Love."

I would imagine he served a similar role compared to "Imagination", perhaps an even more prominent role since Brian wasn't exactly the ring leader of that entire project on every song.

Are/Were there any indications that Mike left this project with hard feeling towards Joe Thomas.....The license to Mike was issued only a couple years later that gave him control of the touring band enabling him to be in control of brand    A lot happened in those two years.....Carl's decline and death....lawsuit by BRI/Mike against AL  etc etc....

[HeyJude]

Joe and Mike connected I believe before Joe and Brian met. Guitarfool posted some good background in this post:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,24284.msg590741.html#msg590741

A guy connected Joe and Mike, they talked the S&S idea over, and then after that Brian got involved.

I would imagine once the band fractured in 1997/98, Mike didn't give Thomas much thought one way or the other. Joe began working with Brian solo, so I guess maybe Mike could have seen Joe as clearly in the "Brian camp."

But Joe was gone by the summer of 1999 and didn't resurface in the Brian/BB universe for another decade.

It seems like Mike and Joe had a potentially complicated relationship for C50 in 2012. On the one hand, Joe was a huge part of making the tour happen and securing the cash for Brian and Mike and the entire operation. I would guess Mike liked that, and even during the tour praised Joe for putting the whole thing together. Less endearing potentially for Mike was that Joe was the near-exclusive co-writer on the TWGMTR album. I would guess Mike didn't like someone else having a more prominent position working with Brian, perhaps didn't like some other guy raking in more songwriting royalties than him, and maybe on top of all of that Mike didn't like some of the material Joe was bringing to the table (e.g. Mike's infamous reaction to the album's ending suite as described in the C50 Rolling Stone article.)

There is perhaps some other more business-oriented stuff buried in the C50 story. It sounds like, for instance, one of the companies contracted to do video projects for C50 were found to be shady by some folks. In the fallout of the canceled crowd-funded C50 video project, there was some sleuthing and some links posted here from some people who were in on that BB project and said the people running it (not the BBs or Joe but the company contracted to the project) had some shady stuff going on.

Here's one link featuring some of the background/info:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,16156.msg391431.html#msg391431

[CenturyDeprived]

Hey guys, a general question back to Joe Thomas.  What was his exact "duties or job" during the Nashville/Star and Stripes Album ?

For one, making sure the mullet quota was never gonna hit the zero mark? Landy and his mullet were now absent, and Carl's semi-mullet had been phased out by the early '90s.

[Robbie Mac]

http://petsoundsforum.com/thread/898/2012-north-american-tour-money

I hate to link to the other place, but it seems Mr. Mott is agreeing with Mike's claims that C50 was losing money.