interview with Mike book collaborator James S. Hirsch

[GhostyTMRS]

Well, I think the quote was (and I don't have it in front of me) that "budgets were ignored".

That's getting into the book, but I'd ask: Ignored to the point of erasing the roughly 1.3 million gross ticket revenue the tour was taking in each week of that tour in the US? 50 US cities, 53 shows, 11 weeks: 15 million gross. This comes back to the statement made in the interview, how the tour lost money domestically. Going over budget is one thing, but to the tune of erasing those numbers? And going back to my original reaction, where is the proof of this to back up such a statement?

That's the issue, isn't it? We don't have the proof because we're not involved with BRI, and info like that wouldn't be publicly available to fans anyway. We only have one principle speaking about how the tour did domestically and that's Mike. We can only wait to hear different from others who were actually part of the business strategy.

[guitarfool2002]

Well, I think the quote was (and I don't have it in front of me) that "budgets were ignored".

That's getting into the book, but I'd ask: Ignored to the point of erasing the roughly 1.3 million gross ticket revenue the tour was taking in each week of that tour in the US? 50 US cities, 53 shows, 11 weeks: 15 million gross. This comes back to the statement made in the interview, how the tour lost money domestically. Going over budget is one thing, but to the tune of erasing those numbers? And going back to my original reaction, where is the proof of this to back up such a statement?

That's the issue, isn't it? We don't have the proof because we're not involved with BRI, and info like that wouldn't be publicly available to fans anyway. We only have one principle speaking about how the tour did domestically and that's Mike. We can only wait to hear different from others who were actually part of the business strategy.

I'd say we have enough doubt to at least challenge or question the claims that the C50 tour domestically lost money, it's in the published numbers and sales/ticket figures. Looking at Jim Hirsch's interview comments, if the concern from Mike was promoters and venues losing money, the fact that those promoters and venues came to the band asking for more bookings would refute that aspect of it. If the tour was tanking or if the feeling was that it would tank and lose money, they would not have come calling for more dates.

[HeyJude]

As long as Mike doesn't lay out *all* the overhead costs, then what led to "losing money" on the North American leg is a huge open question.

As I mentioned before, if that overhead cost included a big fat cash guarantee paid out to the two band members who were shareholders in the "50 Big Ones" production company, namely Brian and Mike, then that would account for a huge amount of the overhead costs.

I don't believe Mike Love would have even signed on for a tour that *clearly* had him not making any money through most of it. I don't think he would have signed on without a certain guarantee. He wouldn't have done a tour with a huge outlay of costs for musicians, etc. unless he had a cash guarantee up front. Just my opinion.

If he did get a cash advance against touring profits, then his complaints about overhead costs would ring rather hollow. It would also make sense in light of how the tour went down. He didn't call to cancel the tour half-way through (which some tours *WOULD* do if the tour was literally *losing* money). I'm guessing he got a big cash advance to do the tour, took the money, hoped obviously that it would make even more money for him, and saw that on top of all of the pain in the ass things about the tour (dealing with Melinda, Brian getting more applause, having to negotiate on setlists, etc.), it wasn't as lean of an operation that would allow for quicker profits, and skedaddled back to his own thing.

When/if the C50 story gets a full retelling, I think one of the big takeaways is going to be that Mike only did the tour mostly because someone waved a big check in front of him. There's no way in my opinion/guesstimation that he would have compromised as much as he did *and* not made any money *at all.*

[HeyJude]

If one wants to construe a huge set of numbers in such a way as to indicate something lost money, it can be done easily. Here's a rather famous "Harry Potter" example, where the film grossed almost $1 billion, yet the profit sheet shows the "project" lost money:



I question whether the domestic leg of C50 lost money. But let's be clear. Even if it *DID* run at a loss, it doesn't mean a bunch of people still didn't make a ton of money. I believe Brian and Mike made a ton of money on the tour (as did presumably Joe Thomas), and the other three BBs got their salary as well.

[Robbie Mac]

Personally, I think Mike wasn't concerned about the C50 $$, even though it may well have been less than what had been hoped for--rather, I think his worry was that if the C50 tour continued on for too long with greater success and acclaim, it would jeopardize his ability to go out in his M&B incarnation and keep that operation viable.

Winner, winner! Chicken dinner!!!

Mike ALWAYS had the most to lose by doing C50.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I can only speak to the one C50 show I attended,  but when I went, merchandise was flying off the stands. lines were very long,  and stuff was selling out.

[Jim V.]

Personally, I think Mike wasn't concerned about the C50 $$, even though it may well have been less than what had been hoped for--rather, I think his worry was that if the C50 tour continued on for too long with greater success and acclaim, it would jeopardize his ability to go out in his M&B incarnation and keep that operation viable.

I think that nails it.

[CenturyDeprived]

Personally, I think Mike wasn't concerned about the C50 $$, even though it may well have been less than what had been hoped for--rather, I think his worry was that if the C50 tour continued on for too long with greater success and acclaim, it would jeopardize his ability to go out in his M&B incarnation and keep that operation viable.

I think that nails it.

Totally. Why is it so hard for this to simply be admitted to?

[SMiLE Brian]

Don Malcom just dropped the Mic!

[GhostyTMRS]

Personally, I think Mike wasn't concerned about the C50 $$, even though it may well have been less than what had been hoped for--rather, I think his worry was that if the C50 tour continued on for too long with greater success and acclaim, it would jeopardize his ability to go out in his M&B incarnation and keep that operation viable.

I think that nails it.

Totally. Why is it so hard for this to simply be admitted to?

Hasn't it been? It's obvious that Mike would rather tour with the setup that he controls rather than joining Brian's band. He more or less says that in his book. I think the only way Mike would give up the ship is if his touring Beach Boys were flopping (and of course, they're not right now) or if Brian, Al and Carl's estate came up with some legal reason to stop him (and they don't appear to be interested..the "Brian Wilson" brand isn't hurting for ticket sales either). Of course, Brian could disband his own group and join Mike's...which would put him in the awkward position of entering a new touring agreement with Mike while paying himself to play his own songs.

And Stig accidentally sues himself.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Personally, I think Mike wasn't concerned about the C50 $$, even though it may well have been less than what had been hoped for--rather, I think his worry was that if the C50 tour continued on for too long with greater success and acclaim, it would jeopardize his ability to go out in his M&B incarnation and keep that operation viable.

I think that nails it.

Totally. Why is it so hard for this to simply be admitted to?

Hasn't it been? It's obvious that Mike would rather tour with the setup that he controls rather than joining Brian's band. He more or less says that in his book. I think the only way Mike would give up the ship is if his touring Beach Boys were flopping (and of course, they're not right now) or if Brian, Al and Carl's estate came up with some legal reason to stop him (and they don't appear to be interested..the "Brian Wilson" brand isn't hurting for ticket sales either). Of course, Brian could disband his own group and join Mike's...which would put him in the awkward position of entering a new touring agreement with Mike while paying himself to play his own songs.

And Stig accidentally sues himself.

+1

[CenturyDeprived]

Personally, I think Mike wasn't concerned about the C50 $$, even though it may well have been less than what had been hoped for--rather, I think his worry was that if the C50 tour continued on for too long with greater success and acclaim, it would jeopardize his ability to go out in his M&B incarnation and keep that operation viable.

I think that nails it.

Totally. Why is it so hard for this to simply be admitted to?

Hasn't it been? It's obvious that Mike would rather tour with the setup that he controls rather than joining Brian's band. He more or less says that in his book. I think the only way Mike would give up the ship is if his touring Beach Boys were flopping (and of course, they're not right now) or if Brian, Al and Carl's estate came up with some legal reason to stop him (and they don't appear to be interested..the "Brian Wilson" brand isn't hurting for ticket sales either). Of course, Brian could disband his own group and join Mike's...which would put him in the awkward position of entering a new touring agreement with Mike while paying himself to play his own songs.

And Stig accidentally sues himself.

Well the thing that Mike hasn't exactly admitted to is that he was obviously afraid of losing control of the M&B operation which he was in control of for a decade plus, and that being in charge was important than silly little insignificant things like touring with 3 other original members.  And you'll never hear him talk about the great things that went away as soon as C50 evaporated, like Al's voice, the incredible backing band, not to mention Brian's presence... etc. All that stuff is just ignored, because to acknowledge that stuff doesn't fit in with Mike's narrative.

Said it before, I'll say it again: Mike needed to check his ego a bit more at the door, and give things a chance to play out, let another album or two happen *without* demands, and let old wounds heal some more. If Mike had actually in 2011/2012 actually publicly copped to his role in SMiLE's demise, made an actual sincere public apology to Brian while in a group setting on tape, this could have been a start to ice thawing more. Of course, this is a dream scenario, but decades-old issues were never fully resolved, and even if Brian doesn't seem to outwardly hold a grudge to Mike about, say, the SMiLE issue anymore (despite going out of his way to finger Mike in the Beautiful Dreamer doc), you can bet that Melinda, who is looking out for Brian's well-being and emotional health, took notice of Mike being up to the same old self-serving ego trip stuff that Mike is infamous for.

While it is not a completely one-side black and white situation, Mike's ego problems were truly, ultimately what killed the tour.  If Brian is to be held ultimately responsible for SMiLE's demise, so should Mike be ultimately held responsible for imploding C50.

One can have real empathy for Mike's plight over decades of the crediting issues (as I legitimately feel for him), yet still believe this to be a sad truth about C50 that has never been owned up to by Mike. It's just excuses, excuses, excuses, and zero self-awareness.

[HeyJude]

Mike doesn't want to admit he's actively rejecting the other members. I think that's the hangup some fans have. He'll say everybody's "doin' their own thing" and all of that, or he'll say that it was a "set end date" on the reunion, or he'll say he had prior tour commitments. My issue with all of these things is that he says these things as if they're generated or decided upon by someone else. But he's making all of these decisions. So he kinda sorta owns the decisions, but not really.

His new book certainly is somewhat more blunt on some of these issues, but it's all still couched in these terms as if he's not rejecting Brian, but instead a bunch of events and/or people have conspired to keep them apart.

My total guess is that Mike was surprised and pissed that Brian and Al told everyone at the end of C50 that they wanted to continue. It was totally a bluff-calling maneuver so people knew by whose hand the reunion was not continuing.

As I believe Howie Edelson termed it, Mike essentially *quit* in 2012, and he doesn't want to admit he was quitter.

[CenturyDeprived]

Mike doesn't want to admit he's actively rejecting the other members. I think that's the hangup some fans have. He'll say everybody's "doin' their own thing" and all of that, or he'll say that it was a "set end date" on the reunion, or he'll say he had prior tour commitments. My issue with all of these things is that he says these things as if they're generated or decided upon by someone else. But he's making all of these decisions. So he kinda sorta owns the decisions, but not really.

His new book certainly is somewhat more blunt on some of these issues, but it's all still couched in these terms as if he's not rejecting Brian, but instead a bunch of events and/or people have conspired to keep them apart.

My total guess is that Mike was surprised and pissed that Brian and Al told everyone at the end of C50 that they wanted to continue. It was totally a bluff-calling maneuver so people knew by whose hand the reunion was not continuing.

As I believe Howie Edelson termed it, Mike essentially *quit* in 2012, and he doesn't want to admit he was quitter.

Which begs the question... what would happen of Mike admitted he was the quitter? What's the boogie man that Mike is so afraid of? Many people - including myself - would respect him MORE for just admitting that he has ego issues and needs to have a certain level of adulation (directed JUST at him), control, etc to remain happy, after being unfairly deprived of all sorts of spoils as a result of the crediting issue (as I'd assume his line of thinking would dictate).

Once can easily draw these conclusions by looking at the actions he took (and the gripes he won't let go of), but it's another thing entirely to hear it from the horse's mouth. Does anyone really think these are inaccurate assumptions?

[SMiLE Brian]

The thing that Mike really doesn't get is the level of respect and love he was getting on the C50. Hardcore fans were forgiving him for past actions and actually being to appreciate Mike's role after all the years. He threw that all away and hardened the worst ideas of fans when he ended the tour.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Many people - including myself - would respect him MORE for just admitting that he has ego issues and needs to have a certain level of adulation (directed JUST at him), control, etc to remain happy, after being unfairly deprived of all sorts of spoils as a result of the crediting issue (as I'd assume his line of thinking would dictate).

I know I would.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

The thing that Mike really doesn't get is the level of respect and love he was getting on the C50. Hardcore fans were forgiving him for past actions and actually being to appreciate Mike's role after all the years. He threw that all away and hardened the worst ideas of fans when he ended the tour.

Very, VERY true.

[CenturyDeprived]

The thing that Mike really doesn't get is the level of respect and love he was getting on the C50. Hardcore fans were forgiving him for past actions and actually being to appreciate Mike's role after all the years. He threw that all away and hardened the worst ideas of fans when he ended the tour.

Very, VERY true.

This is the ultimate, real tragedy of Mike's story. The inability to realize that he needs to deflate his ego in order to build up his reputation in a real way, and be respected in a manner approximating the manner that he wishes he was. It's way, way too late now though.

A person cannot demand that people respect them, or publicly complain about lack of respect. No artist ever, and I mean ever, has gotten anybody (and certainly not any real institution/critics/award shows of any consequence) to actually respect them MORE by complaining about lack of respect. All that does is come off as egotistical and have the opposite effect - even if their gripes are partly, or fully true. Billy Corgan, Phil Spector, among others (I'm sure there are many, many more examples) have severely hurt their reputation by letting their egos show way, way, way too much. And those are people far more talented than Mike.

Basically, I cannot fathom how someone can shoot themselves in the foot so many times. Mike needs to borrow the foot statue from Watt.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

The thing that Mike really doesn't get is the level of respect and love he was getting on the C50. Hardcore fans were forgiving him for past actions and actually being to appreciate Mike's role after all the years. He threw that all away and hardened the worst ideas of fans when he ended the tour.

Very, VERY true.

This is the ultimate, real tragedy of Mike's story. The inability to realize that he needs to deflate his ego in order to build up his reputation in a real way, and be respected in a manner approximating the manner that he wishes he was. It's way, way too late now though.

A person cannot demand that people respect them, or publicly complain about lack of respect. No artist ever, and I mean ever, has gotten anybody (and certainly not any real institution/critics/award shows of any consequence) to actually respect them MORE by complaining about lack of respect. All that does is come off as egotistical and have the opposite effect - even if their gripes are partly, or fully true. Billy Corgan, Phil Spector, among others (I'm sure there are many, many more examples) have severely hurt their reputation by letting their egos show way, way, way too much. And those are people far more talented than Mike.

Basically, I cannot fathom how someone can shoot themselves in the foot so many times. Mike needs to borrow the foot statue from Watt.

I'd put Mike over Billy Corgan, but otherwise I agree 100%

[CenturyDeprived]

The thing that Mike really doesn't get is the level of respect and love he was getting on the C50. Hardcore fans were forgiving him for past actions and actually being to appreciate Mike's role after all the years. He threw that all away and hardened the worst ideas of fans when he ended the tour.

Very, VERY true.

This is the ultimate, real tragedy of Mike's story. The inability to realize that he needs to deflate his ego in order to build up his reputation in a real way, and be respected in a manner approximating the manner that he wishes he was. It's way, way too late now though.

A person cannot demand that people respect them, or publicly complain about lack of respect. No artist ever, and I mean ever, has gotten anybody (and certainly not any real institution/critics/award shows of any consequence) to actually respect them MORE by complaining about lack of respect. All that does is come off as egotistical and have the opposite effect - even if their gripes are partly, or fully true. Billy Corgan, Phil Spector, among others (I'm sure there are many, many more examples) have severely hurt their reputation by letting their egos show way, way, way too much. And those are people far more talented than Mike.

Basically, I cannot fathom how someone can shoot themselves in the foot so many times. Mike needs to borrow the foot statue from Watt.

I'd put Mike over Billy Corgan, but otherwise I agree 100%

Off topic, but Mike absolutely has talent for hooks, and has delivered many awesome leads, but he is not a super-prolific one-man songwriting/producing machine. Corgan is like Brian in that regard (plus a majorly talented/severely underrated guitar player too), and much of Corgan's best material is not especially well-known outside of the more hardcore fans. That said, one could write a dissertation about Corgan's tragic ego issues. Apples and oranges, but Mike doesn't hold a candle to Corgan.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Ahh...I'm only familiar with the well-known Smashing Pumpkins songs, so I may be a bit out of my element here!

[guitarfool2002]

Personally, I think Mike wasn't concerned about the C50 $$, even though it may well have been less than what had been hoped for--rather, I think his worry was that if the C50 tour continued on for too long with greater success and acclaim, it would jeopardize his ability to go out in his M&B incarnation and keep that operation viable.

I think that nails it.

Totally. Why is it so hard for this to simply be admitted to?

Hasn't it been? It's obvious that Mike would rather tour with the setup that he controls rather than joining Brian's band. He more or less says that in his book. I think the only way Mike would give up the ship is if his touring Beach Boys were flopping (and of course, they're not right now) or if Brian, Al and Carl's estate came up with some legal reason to stop him (and they don't appear to be interested..the "Brian Wilson" brand isn't hurting for ticket sales either). Of course, Brian could disband his own group and join Mike's...which would put him in the awkward position of entering a new touring agreement with Mike while paying himself to play his own songs.

And Stig accidentally sues himself.

It certainly wasn't given as a reason in this interview with Jim Hirsch. The statements and reasoning were made clear, the notion that C50 was losing money and Mike was concerned the promoters and venues would lose money, thereby hurting the brand. And unless there is clarification, that reasoning doesn't appear to be supported by the facts and figures. The numbers are all there, as are the reports of the tour's success.

[GhostyTMRS]

Personally, I think Mike wasn't concerned about the C50 $$, even though it may well have been less than what had been hoped for--rather, I think his worry was that if the C50 tour continued on for too long with greater success and acclaim, it would jeopardize his ability to go out in his M&B incarnation and keep that operation viable.

I think that nails it.

Totally. Why is it so hard for this to simply be admitted to?

Hasn't it been? It's obvious that Mike would rather tour with the setup that he controls rather than joining Brian's band. He more or less says that in his book. I think the only way Mike would give up the ship is if his touring Beach Boys were flopping (and of course, they're not right now) or if Brian, Al and Carl's estate came up with some legal reason to stop him (and they don't appear to be interested..the "Brian Wilson" brand isn't hurting for ticket sales either). Of course, Brian could disband his own group and join Mike's...which would put him in the awkward position of entering a new touring agreement with Mike while paying himself to play his own songs.

And Stig accidentally sues himself.

It certainly wasn't given as a reason in this interview with Jim Hirsch. The statements and reasoning were made clear, the notion that C50 was losing money and Mike was concerned the promoters and venues would lose money, thereby hurting the brand. And unless there is clarification, that reasoning doesn't appear to be supported by the facts and figures. The numbers are all there, as are the reports of the tour's success.

The C50 tour talk was a wee bit of a half hour interview about his career, how they wrote it, etc. They briefly touched on it at best (although given the 3 pages of comments here I suspect some of the things mentioned will be in part 2).

[guitarfool2002]

Personally, I think Mike wasn't concerned about the C50 $$, even though it may well have been less than what had been hoped for--rather, I think his worry was that if the C50 tour continued on for too long with greater success and acclaim, it would jeopardize his ability to go out in his M&B incarnation and keep that operation viable.

I think that nails it.

Totally. Why is it so hard for this to simply be admitted to?

Hasn't it been? It's obvious that Mike would rather tour with the setup that he controls rather than joining Brian's band. He more or less says that in his book. I think the only way Mike would give up the ship is if his touring Beach Boys were flopping (and of course, they're not right now) or if Brian, Al and Carl's estate came up with some legal reason to stop him (and they don't appear to be interested..the "Brian Wilson" brand isn't hurting for ticket sales either). Of course, Brian could disband his own group and join Mike's...which would put him in the awkward position of entering a new touring agreement with Mike while paying himself to play his own songs.

And Stig accidentally sues himself.

It certainly wasn't given as a reason in this interview with Jim Hirsch. The statements and reasoning were made clear, the notion that C50 was losing money and Mike was concerned the promoters and venues would lose money, thereby hurting the brand. And unless there is clarification, that reasoning doesn't appear to be supported by the facts and figures. The numbers are all there, as are the reports of the tour's success.

The C50 tour talk was a wee bit of a half hour interview about his career, how they wrote it, etc. They briefly touched on it at best (although given the 3 pages of comments here I suspect some of the things mentioned will be in part 2).

What does it matter how long this or any of the topics were discussed in the interview? It was and still is one of the key issues among fans, from those wondering about 2012 to those fans still pining for yet another C50 style "reunion" with all the band members on stage together, including Mr. Hirsch and the two principles talking to him in the interview who also expand on the issue of Mike and Brian getting back together...if only it weren't for "those around them" keeping them apart. That is another topic altogether, another rationale that doesn't line up with the facts, ultimately. And the answer given about C50's finances doesn't line up with the facts and figures unless this band grossing 1.3 million every week of the US leg of C50 found a way to negate all of that income by going over budget, or T-shirt sales weren't as brisk as expected to the tune of 6-7 figures.

If it were as basic as admitting to something or giving another reason, that reason would have been given instead of putting the reasoning squarely and definitively onto the tour having lost money and Mike being worried about promoters and venues losing money. And it just doesn't hold water.

For the other topics, from Maureen Love to Steve Love to the 2005 lawsuit's non-inclusion alongside the other lawsuits, to all the rest, I included times and quotes in my comments so everyone can find exactly where the comments were made in the interview, whether one line or a few minutes of talk.

And again, kudos for Mark during the interview for clarifying the issue of Brian not speaking to other authors as part of his publishing agreement - That is how records are set straight, using the simple facts, not speculation or obfuscation or outright distortion.

[GhostyTMRS]

Why are you trying to make it seem like Hirsch is contradicting himself by repeating the claim in the book that the tour lost money? It's in the book. I know you have the book. Did you expect him to read the entire chapter aloud during the interview so that every single point Mike lists for reasons why he didn't enjoy the tour or the tour lost money are in the interview? You could just buy the audio version of Mikes book to hear that.

Honestly, GF, I respect your knowledge of the band and I respect your right to not believe Mike is being truthful. I get that. Everyone's entitled to their opinion , but again, you have the book yourself. Why not just go through all of the points Mike makes one by one yourself? You've already presented your stuff from Pollstar so evidently you're satisfied with that. Is the point here to try to shame Hirsch or something?