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« Reply #150 on: October 12, 2016, 03:39:21 PM »

That said

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I have been a fan of this site for quite awhile but always been too nervous to state my opinion. I am only in my early 20's, a huge Brian fan and I'd hate to see politics creeping into our wonderful music reality of Brian Wilson. The TV is on constantly at our house and I happily put my head phones on to listen to Pet sounds to escape the crazy politics in our world. Can we please get back to the music? Now that I have officially posted my first response I'm anxious to get a real discussion going.

I do feel the same way
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« Reply #151 on: October 13, 2016, 09:34:11 PM »

I was watching a program that highlights young musicians. One segment involved a black family band from the Wakefiekd section of the Bronx in New York City. They play rock music which I believe was heavy metal or grunge rock. Because they were black, however, people expected them to play only rap or r&b music.

I'm African American and listen to all kinds of music. I have all of the Pet Sounds tracks except for the two instrumentals.  In the Bronx, all I hear are hip hop and Latin music on the streets. I commented to my co-worker that I would like to hear a Barry Manilow or an Elton John song in the Bronx.
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« Reply #152 on: October 13, 2016, 09:39:50 PM »

Good vibrations was psychedelic R&B.

  It definitely could have been.

  Chuck Berry obviously meant more to The Beach Boys than any white rock & rollers of the 50s. Especially Carl and Mike.

I agree.
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« Reply #153 on: October 13, 2016, 10:01:01 PM »

Quote
I'm African American and listen to all kinds of music.
So's my wife and she's the exact same (and also a die hard BB fan  like me!)
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« Reply #154 on: October 13, 2016, 10:11:29 PM »

The Beach Boys at one time performed in front of an audience full of black kids at the Ritchie Valens Memorial Dance in Long Beach, Ca. There was barely a white kid there.
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« Reply #155 on: October 13, 2016, 10:22:04 PM »

Huh...I didn't know that!
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« Reply #156 on: October 13, 2016, 10:31:56 PM »

Huh...I didn't know that!

Ike and Tina Turner were also in the line up.  The Beach Boys performed after Ike and Tina.  Brian didn't see Ike but saw Tina. Brian said he felt intimidated because they were white boys from a white suburb performing in front of the black kids ready to groove. Brian heard R&B on the radio, but never seen one in person.
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« Reply #157 on: October 16, 2016, 05:29:29 AM »

It annoys me when people take today's standards and political views and try to apply them to yesterday's art.

I was just talking to my son (he is thirty) about this when we were watching The Three Stooges and Fawlty Towers. What used to be clever or funny is now 'offensive'. And there is always someone somewhere who will be offended by something.

When I listen to a band who was clearly influenced by Chuck Berry and Stevie Wonder and covered Fats Domino song or a Frankie Lymon song, I am not seeing or hearing racism. If you want to judge today's music by today's standards, have a blast - but leave Pet Sounds alone.
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« Reply #158 on: October 16, 2016, 02:53:01 PM »

I was watching a program that highlights young musicians. One segment involved a black family band from the Wakefiekd section of the Bronx in New York City. They play rock music which I believe was heavy metal or grunge rock. Because they were black, however, people expected them to play only rap or r&b music.

I'm African American and listen to all kinds of music. I have all of the Pet Sounds tracks except for the two instrumentals.  In the Bronx, all I hear are hip hop and Latin music on the streets. I commented to my co-worker that I would like to hear a Barry Manilow or an Elton John song in the Bronx.

Black people in the city jammin' barry manilow Shocked 
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« Reply #159 on: October 16, 2016, 03:31:18 PM »

It annoys me when people take today's standards and political views and try to apply them to yesterday's art.

But do you subscribe to the view that racism, say, was invented at some point and then applied to the past or did it always exist even when there were some people who didn't realize it? And if you believe the latter, then don't we have a responsibility to apply our better understanding of things today so that we can actually have a clearer picture of the way things worked in the past?
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« Reply #160 on: October 16, 2016, 06:47:01 PM »

I'm curious if the people who get terribly angry at "political correctness" for trying to control how people speak about things ever notice how much they themselves try to control how people speak about things.

I'm not sure whether you were referring to my resurrection of this thread or John Lemon's response, but I wonder if you care to actually address my point.

Let me put it another way. I'm white, but I grew up in a section of  Salt Lake City that was majority minority.  Solid majority Hispanic with a lot of Polynesian mixed in.  My school district was the first majority minority district in the state.  My particular neighborhood was mostly Polynesian, so the soundtrack to my childhood was a mix of Jawaiian and traditional Samoan folk. In fact, my first exposure to Beach Boys music was  neighbors playing the surf stuff on ukuleles.  I came to love the traditional Samoan/Tongan stuff the best and I still listen to it heavily today.

Now, let's take the passage I cited before and replace the white stuff with Polynesian:

"For a lot of listeners, Fau'ula stands for Poly-dad folk, which stands for a worldview we’re in the necessary process of dismantling."

Would anybody ever say that? Hell no. It would truly be immoral, bigoted and racist. I find it fascinating that popular Progressive culture finds it cool-- nay, necessary-- to throw one culture/race under the bus as the single exception to their Prime Directive.  The rationale for this is what I'm interested in understanding.

My comment was not specific to your comment, but rather that there are now 6 pages of denunciations of rather mild commentary saying that, basically, rock and roll started out primarily as a black medium and rapidly became a primarily white medium. The denunciations of 'political correctness' and 'social justice warriors' are now a very aggressive silencing and social censoring force of their own. Anti-political correctness, which is basically that you can't criticize racism or sexism, is its own powerful political correctness. But none of the people shouting down people who discuss racism seem to notice that they are trying to control expression every bit as much, and in the same way, as political correctness does.

Regarding your specific comment, if we lived in a society in which the hegemonic power and culture had been, for centuries, Polynesian - in a culture in which virtually all senators, congress people, presidents, judges, business leaders, governors, millionaires and billionaires, news reporters and anchor people, and talk show hosts and show runners had been Polynesian - though a significant minority of the population had been white people all that time; and if that society had actually, for the vast majority of that time, up until the living memory of many white people,  by law suppressed white people; and if in that society white people still disproportionately experienced violence and incarceration by the state, and if there remained, say, 42% of the population supporting a Polynesian presidential candidate with a life-long history of anti-white statements and actions, I would find it not offensive that someone wrote a mention of 'Poly-dad' music.

Criticism is not the same as silencing. Silencing is shutting down debate by screeching things like "check your privilege at the door" when confronted with an uncomfortable argument.

Rock and roll has roots in the African American community. Sombreros have roots in Mexico. Who cares? It is important for historical reasons but beyond that it belongs to all who love it.

African Americans are disproportionately inprisoned because African American commit crimes at a disproportionately higher rate that other ethnicities.

The violence that African Americans suffer at disproportionately higher rates than other ethnicities is primary committed by African Americans. White on black violence is a footnote except to the SJW fascists who are more concerned with tearing society apart than fixing it.

You are not obliged to appreciate 'Pet Sounds' but if you criticize it because it represents 'white culture' and its roots are in 'black culture' then you are an idiot. I have no respect for people who make their ethnicity, gender or orientation the central focus of how they filter life, art and other human beings, because in doing so they are no different than David Duke.

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« Reply #161 on: October 16, 2016, 07:10:17 PM »

I'm curious if the people who get terribly angry at "political correctness" for trying to control how people speak about things ever notice how much they themselves try to control how people speak about things.

I'm not sure whether you were referring to my resurrection of this thread or John Lemon's response, but I wonder if you care to actually address my point.

Let me put it another way. I'm white, but I grew up in a section of  Salt Lake City that was majority minority.  Solid majority Hispanic with a lot of Polynesian mixed in.  My school district was the first majority minority district in the state.  My particular neighborhood was mostly Polynesian, so the soundtrack to my childhood was a mix of Jawaiian and traditional Samoan folk. In fact, my first exposure to Beach Boys music was  neighbors playing the surf stuff on ukuleles.  I came to love the traditional Samoan/Tongan stuff the best and I still listen to it heavily today.

Now, let's take the passage I cited before and replace the white stuff with Polynesian:

"For a lot of listeners, Fau'ula stands for Poly-dad folk, which stands for a worldview we’re in the necessary process of dismantling."

Would anybody ever say that? Hell no. It would truly be immoral, bigoted and racist. I find it fascinating that popular Progressive culture finds it cool-- nay, necessary-- to throw one culture/race under the bus as the single exception to their Prime Directive.  The rationale for this is what I'm interested in understanding.

My comment was not specific to your comment, but rather that there are now 6 pages of denunciations of rather mild commentary saying that, basically, rock and roll started out primarily as a black medium and rapidly became a primarily white medium. The denunciations of 'political correctness' and 'social justice warriors' are now a very aggressive silencing and social censoring force of their own. Anti-political correctness, which is basically that you can't criticize racism or sexism, is its own powerful political correctness. But none of the people shouting down people who discuss racism seem to notice that they are trying to control expression every bit as much, and in the same way, as political correctness does.

Regarding your specific comment, if we lived in a society in which the hegemonic power and culture had been, for centuries, Polynesian - in a culture in which virtually all senators, congress people, presidents, judges, business leaders, governors, millionaires and billionaires, news reporters and anchor people, and talk show hosts and show runners had been Polynesian - though a significant minority of the population had been white people all that time; and if that society had actually, for the vast majority of that time, up until the living memory of many white people,  by law suppressed white people; and if in that society white people still disproportionately experienced violence and incarceration by the state, and if there remained, say, 42% of the population supporting a Polynesian presidential candidate with a life-long history of anti-white statements and actions, I would find it not offensive that someone wrote a mention of 'Poly-dad' music.

Criticism is not the same as silencing. Silencing is shutting down debate by screeching things like "check your privilege at the door" when confronted with an uncomfortable argument.

Rock and roll has roots in the African American community. Sombreros have roots in Mexico. Who cares? It is important for historical reasons but beyond that it belongs to all who love it.

African Americans are disproportionately inprisoned because African American commit crimes at a disproportionately higher rate that other ethnicities.

The violence that African Americans suffer at disproportionately higher rates than other ethnicities is primary committed by African Americans. White on black violence is a footnote except to the SJW fascists who are more concerned with tearing society apart than fixing it.

You are not obliged to appreciate 'Pet Sounds' but if you criticize it because it represents 'white culture' and its roots are in 'black culture' then you are an idiot. I have no respect for people who make their ethnicity, gender or orientation the central focus of how they filter life, art and other human beings, because in doing so they are no different than David Duke.

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« Reply #162 on: October 16, 2016, 08:47:21 PM »

African Americans are disproportionately inprisoned because African American commit crimes at a disproportionately higher rate that other ethnicities.

That is flat out false. There's a great deal of scholarship done on this and what it shows uncontroversially is that when a white person and a black person commit the same crime, the black person is more likely to be arrested. In the less likely scenario where both are arrested, studies show that a black person is more likely to receive a longer jail sentence, if the white person would even be incarcerated at all. And what is the reason why black people are arrested for crimes that white people are also committing but are not being arrested for? Because black communities are under greater surveillance, largely because of the assumption that there will be more crime committed there, an assumption that, of course, becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy because you can't arrest someone for committing the crimes that you aren't watching. All of this has been amply documented, and I can provide sources if you wish.

The phenomenon on the SJW insult is an interesting one. Personally, I think that it has developed because there are certain people who have gone through their lives being able to make fact-less baseless groundless assumptions that are complete nonsense as represented in the quote above and have it go largely unchallenged. In the past decade or so, there has been more organization and more communication amongst progressive groups and this has had the effect that it has become more difficult for that kind of nonsense to pass without thoughtful rebuttal. Thus, the PC world was born. In other words, before the PC shift, I was able to get away with saying whatever false thing I wanted to say on the internet and now I can't. But, of course, for those who have accepted these sorts of massive distortions as the truth, it must look like the world has gone all PC.
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« Reply #163 on: October 16, 2016, 09:45:33 PM »

African Americans are disproportionately inprisoned because African American commit crimes at a disproportionately higher rate that other ethnicities.

That is flat out false. There's a great deal of scholarship done on this and what it shows uncontroversially is that when a white person and a black person commit the same crime, the black person is more likely to be arrested. In the less likely scenario where both are arrested, studies show that a black person is more likely to receive a longer jail sentence, if the white person would even be incarcerated at all. And what is the reason why black people are arrested for crimes that white people are also committing but are not being arrested for? Because black communities are under greater surveillance, largely because of the assumption that there will be more crime committed there, an assumption that, of course, becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy because you can't arrest someone for committing the crimes that you aren't watching. All of this has been amply documented, and I can provide sources if you wish.

The phenomenon on the SJW insult is an interesting one. Personally, I think that it has developed because there are certain people who have gone through their lives being able to make fact-less baseless groundless assumptions that are complete nonsense as represented in the quote above and have it go largely unchallenged. In the past decade or so, there has been more organization and more communication amongst progressive groups and this has had the effect that it has become more difficult for that kind of nonsense to pass without thoughtful rebuttal. Thus, the PC world was born. In other words, before the PC shift, I was able to get away with saying whatever false thing I wanted to say on the internet and now I can't. But, of course, for those who have accepted these sorts of massive distortions as the truth, it must look like the world has gone all PC.

Are you arguing that that the crime rate for African-Americans is not disproportionately higher than that of other ethnicities?

And I am sorry - the PC BS is a product of the 60's leftist take over the the humanities in American Universities. In the 60's the big fight had been won but these people want to keep fighting the battle. Unfortunately for them, there is an overwhelming consensus that state sponsored discrimination had to go (remember, Jim Crow was the law, not a choice by individual businesses) so now we must focus on the implied racism of  "taco night", "offensive" Halloween costumes and such. It is beyond absurd, but the fact that our best and brightest take these ideas seriously instead of overwhelmingly rejecting them with the scorn and ridicule they richly deserve does not bode well for the future of the University.

Not content with corrupting the humanities, the newest target of the SJW is STEM. The first shot has been fired as a SJW PHD candidate attacks the scientific method for being sexist:

http://thefederalist.com/2016/09/29/feminist-phd-candidate-science-sexist-not-subjective/

Back to the topic: 'Pet Sounds' is universal because it deals with human feelings about love and loss. I am not sure how race even enters into it. You might be able to put together a suite of Smokey Robinson songs (are we still allowed to call him 'Smokey' or will that trigger somebody?) that could have expressed it as well as Brian but nobody has expressed it better than Brian.

Now thank God the author did not base his screed on BWPS. That is so full of microaggressions that he probably would have put,it in a class with 'Mein Kampf'
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« Reply #164 on: October 17, 2016, 04:23:39 AM »

Are you arguing that that the crime rate for African-Americans is not disproportionately higher than that of other ethnicities?

The incarceration rate is higher, per capita. But if you read what I wrote above, you'll note that the incarceration is higher because the evidence shows that they are victims of a system that is biased against them. I've provided the information above and I'm happy to engage on that subject.

Quote
And I am sorry - the PC BS is a product of the 60's leftist take over the the humanities in American Universities. In the 60's the big fight had been won but these people want to keep fighting the battle. Unfortunately for them, there is an overwhelming consensus that state sponsored discrimination had to go (remember, Jim Crow was the law, not a choice by individual businesses) so now we must focus on the implied racism of  "taco night", "offensive" Halloween costumes and such. It is beyond absurd, but the fact that our best and brightest take these ideas seriously instead of overwhelmingly rejecting them with the scorn and ridicule they richly deserve does not bode well for the future of the University.

And I'm sorry but nothing that you describe is remotely leftist. In my experience, and I've worked in a university for ten years now, the humanities are centrists to centre-right in their politics, supporting candidates like Clinton and Obama. And yes, when you are status quo centre-right, you are less likely to focus on systemic concerns (which exist - you characterize the "big fight" as having "been won" but the information I provided above suggests that it is plainly not) and more likely to focus on less substantive matters. My first post in this thread was to offer some criticism of academia but it is not the academia that others have been characterizing. My problem with academia is that it purports to be leftist and political when it is quite often more likely status quo and apolitical.

Thus when a genuine leftist appears in academia they tend to struggle. Genuine leftists don't get called out for being sexists by the humanities. Instead, they get thrown out of universities as was the case with respected scholars like David Graeber and Norman Finkelstein. If what you are saying is true, that leftists took over American universities, scholars like these would be celebrated, not thrown out. The fact that these cases rarely get talked about but the small-scale issues with sexism do, demonstrates that the SJW, PC complainers are not genuine in their criticisms of a silencing culture but instead want what I suggested above - the right to have their nonsense equally accepted amongst other ideas.
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« Reply #165 on: October 18, 2016, 01:59:55 AM »

It annoys me when people take today's standards and political views and try to apply them to yesterday's art.

But do you subscribe to the view that racism, say, was invented at some point and then applied to the past or did it always exist even when there were some people who didn't realize it? And if you believe the latter, then don't we have a responsibility to apply our better understanding of things today so that we can actually have a clearer picture of the way things worked in the past?

Of course racism was not 'invented'. It is not just black and white, and it more than likely existed the first time two unlike races set eyes upon each other. My problem is when people try to shoehorn the idea of racism into a situation where it did not exist to draw attention to it. "Hey, there is something topical in the news. How can we put the racist spin on it?"
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« Reply #166 on: October 18, 2016, 08:18:53 AM »

My problem with academia is that it purports to be leftist and political when it is quite often more likely status quo and apolitical.

*snort*

I majored in Political Science from a university with zero ideological diversity. It was leftist in both method and content. I actually went in as a progressive, budding social justice advocate, and I thought I was in heaven because it so strongly reinforced my prior political views.

But about one semester into the experience, I realized that I disagreed with some of the stuff being shoved down my throat. I made the mistake of voicing that concern to a professor, who informed me that I'd better get in line if I wanted to get a decent grade, then warned me about being too vocal about my burgeoning disagreements in other classes.  Needless to say, I graduated a conservative libertarian. And started listening to the racist Beach Boys.
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« Reply #167 on: October 18, 2016, 08:44:13 AM »

It annoys me when people take today's standards and political views and try to apply them to yesterday's art.

But do you subscribe to the view that racism, say, was invented at some point and then applied to the past or did it always exist even when there were some people who didn't realize it? And if you believe the latter, then don't we have a responsibility to apply our better understanding of things today so that we can actually have a clearer picture of the way things worked in the past?

Of course racism was not 'invented'. It is not just black and white, and it more than likely existed the first time two unlike races set eyes upon each other. My problem is when people try to shoehorn the idea of racism into a situation where it did not exist to draw attention to it. "Hey, there is something topical in the news. How can we put the racist spin on it?"

Racism is surely invented, since "race" as a thing is invented. Prejudice in a general sense may not be, but it certainly is learned. Spend some time around toddlers if you disagree.
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« Reply #168 on: October 18, 2016, 10:29:48 AM »

My problem with academia is that it purports to be leftist and political when it is quite often more likely status quo and apolitical.

*snort*

I majored in Political Science from a university with zero ideological diversity. It was leftist in both method and content. I actually went in as a progressive, budding social justice advocate, and I thought I was in heaven because it so strongly reinforced my prior political views.

But about one semester into the experience, I realized that I disagreed with some of the stuff being shoved down my throat. I made the mistake of voicing that concern to a professor, who informed me that I'd better get in line if I wanted to get a decent grade, then warned me about being too vocal about my burgeoning disagreements in other classes.  Needless to say, I graduated a conservative libertarian. And started listening to the racist Beach Boys.

Well, neither of what we are saying is necessarily in conflict here. But I do think that people have a wildly distorted notion of what constitutes left politics, academics included, which is why so many of them are predominantly centrists who imagine themselves as leftists.
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« Reply #169 on: October 18, 2016, 11:38:46 AM »

Can this go in the Sandbox at this point?
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« Reply #170 on: October 18, 2016, 11:40:56 AM »

Well, neither of what we are saying is necessarily in conflict here. But I do think that people have a wildly distorted notion of what constitutes left politics, academics included, which is why so many of them are predominantly centrists who imagine themselves as leftists.

This is interesting, because my professors really tried to portray themselves as centrist. I'm interested in what you define as left politics. Perhaps Academia and Joe Public are measuring on different spectra?
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« Reply #171 on: October 18, 2016, 11:43:07 AM »

Can this go in the Sandbox at this point?

With all due respect, this post is no more or less relevant/pointless than any other on the front page of this forum. It's also not half as uncivilized. I say keep it here.

And if you disagree with me, you're racist.
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« Reply #172 on: October 18, 2016, 11:46:51 AM »

Can this go in the Sandbox at this point?

Yeah, I think so
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^ This fake quote brought to you by "Oyster Pudding™ ....the Pudding with the Pearl inside!"
HeyJude
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« Reply #173 on: October 18, 2016, 11:48:50 AM »

Can this go in the Sandbox at this point?

With all due respect, this post is no more or less relevant/pointless than any other on the front page of this forum. It's also not half as uncivilized. I say keep it here.

And if you disagree with me, you're racist.

It's 100% off-topic. A thread on Al's underwear is more relevant to the "General ON TOPIC Discussions" section of this forum than most of the last page of posts.

And with all due respect, while there are plenty of admirably smart, brilliant, and insightful people here, this is NOT the place I would ever go to read ruminations on politics, or race theory or criticism, and so on.
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« Reply #174 on: October 18, 2016, 11:54:25 AM »

Can this go in the Sandbox at this point?

Yeah, I think so

Thanks.

Make no mistake, I have strong opinions and beliefs on any and all things unrelated to the Beach Boys. I think there's a pretty short half-life to how far a discussion can stay interesting concerning the original article that started this thread, but I went with it as long as it still included some tangent related to the Beach Boys.
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