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Author Topic: Pet Sounds and Race  (Read 23670 times)
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guitarfool2002
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« Reply #125 on: October 08, 2016, 07:06:14 AM »

Jazz is/was a segregated genre? No way, in fact the polar opposite is true. If we're talking genres, jazz may have been the single most prominent and popular entertainment genre that fought racism and segregation and effected change at specific times in the 20th century. Jazz and jazz musicians all but forced the culture to take a hard look at the situation and ask what the hell is going on...

It wasn't the musicians. They did in fact thumb their collective noses at the whole thing, a lot of it crystallized in the music itself. It absolutely, positively wasn't the genre.
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« Reply #126 on: October 08, 2016, 08:29:47 AM »

And how Jazz developed was very multicultural. To traditional African/Creole rhythms (for an example please listen to Gottschalk's " Bamboula" or perhaps Dr. John's "Danse Kalinda Ba Doom"), add some classical. Then, a major event happened in the 1880s when Mexican brass military bands came up to New Orleans. The people were blown away by them, Blacks and Whites alike, as music wise the main instruments used up to that time there were pianos and guitars. Jelly Roll Morton recounted how some of the Mexicans stayed behind, giving music lessons on the various brass/woodwind instruments. All these contributed to the development of Jazz.
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« Reply #127 on: October 10, 2016, 08:37:38 AM »

But this is completely hyperbolic. This is the second conversation or article I've seen that discusses the Beach Boys in terms of race (I'm not saying there aren't more but they are nowhere near being "a part of every Beach Boys conversation." )

Here's another article that discusses the BB in terms of race: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts/music/beach-boys-icon-brian-wilson-on-faith-forgiveness-and-his-new-memoir/article32296927/

Key passage: "For a lot of listeners, the Beach Boys stand for white-dad rock, which stands for a worldview we’re in the necessary process of dismantling."

The article does not specify exactly which worldview is represented or why that worldview is bad and needs to be dismantled, but the sentiment fits right into the popular narrative (which used to be mostly implied but is more frequently vocalized these days), that white culture itself is inherently racist and antithetical to human progress. 

Now, BB = white-dad rock = bad worldview = racist.  Nobody is accusing the band of racism, but the band's music is well on the path toward being regarded as a symbol of racism.
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« Reply #128 on: October 10, 2016, 06:56:53 PM »

But this is completely hyperbolic. This is the second conversation or article I've seen that discusses the Beach Boys in terms of race (I'm not saying there aren't more but they are nowhere near being "a part of every Beach Boys conversation." )

Here's another article that discusses the BB in terms of race: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts/music/beach-boys-icon-brian-wilson-on-faith-forgiveness-and-his-new-memoir/article32296927/

Key passage: "For a lot of listeners, the Beach Boys stand for white-dad rock, which stands for a worldview we’re in the necessary process of dismantling."

The article does not specify exactly which worldview is represented or why that worldview is bad and needs to be dismantled, but the sentiment fits right into the popular narrative (which used to be mostly implied but is more frequently vocalized these days), that white culture itself is inherently racist and antithetical to human progress.  

Now, BB = white-dad rock = bad worldview = racist.  Nobody is accusing the band of racism, but the band's music is well on the path toward being regarded as a symbol of racism.

SMH now that is a shame to hear someone write a racist article like that! That is Bigotry and racism at its best. Whats wrong or racist about being a father or listening to BB/Brian Wilson or being "white"?
« Last Edit: October 10, 2016, 06:57:41 PM by The_Beach » Logged
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« Reply #129 on: October 10, 2016, 08:46:29 PM »

To put things in perspective...

From wikipedia:

Quote
Even before The Globe merged with the Mail and Empire, the paper was widely considered the voice of the Upper Canada elite—that is, the Bay Street financial community of Toronto and the intellectuals of university and government institutions. The merger of the Liberal Globe and the Tory Mail and Empire prefigured the paper's characteristically Red Tory editorial stance, as its support alternated between the two established national parties. In the past century, the paper has consistently endorsed either the Liberal or (Progressive) Conservative parties in every federal election.[citation needed] The paper had endorsed a third party on two occasions at the provincial level: it endorsed the social-democratic New Democratic Party in the 1991 Saskatchewan provincial election and British Columbia provincial election. The New Democrats won both elections and formed provincial governments.

While the paper was known as a generally conservative voice of the business establishment in the postwar decades,[citation needed] historian David Hayes, in a review of its positions, has noted that the Globe's editorials in this period "took a benign view of hippies and homosexuals; championed most aspects of the welfare state; opposed, after some deliberation, the Vietnam War; and supported legalizing marijuana." It was a December 12, 1967 Globe and Mail editorial[32] that stated, "Obviously, the state’s responsibility should be to legislate rules for a well-ordered society. It has no right or duty to creep into the bedrooms of the nation." On December 21, 1967, then Justice Minister Pierre Trudeau, in defending the government`s Omnibus bill and the legalization of homosexuality, coined the phrase "There's no place for the state in the bedrooms of the nation" [33] This line was to become one of Trudeau`s most famous quotations.

From the same writer of the aticle in question:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts/music/the-brian-wilson-legend-doesnt-resonate-like-it-used-to/article23789134/

features this:

Quote
But the sixties rock and pop canon, as preserved in headshops, is as biased as the literary. And sixties counterculture, at least the scenes that became iconic, pretty much mirrored the status quo: led by the male, white, straight and middle-class. (Hendrix and Joplin are exceptions that prove the rule, and consider what they had to go through.)

Popular audiences were once assumed to be white, male, straight and middle-class; that was never the case, but what’s changed is that you can no longer make that assumption. There is no such thing as musical monoculture (there never really was) – although there is still a Billboard chart, and as of writing, the No. 1 slot on the Billboard 200 belongs to Kendrick Lamar’s To Pimp a Butterfly. It would be totally silly to weight No Pier Pressure’s fate against it, in terms of chart success. But as a gauge of what matters today, musically and socially, it’s a significant difference.

https://thehairpin.com/please-welcome-alexandra-molotkow-3ac670028543#.4x9pi9s0i

Also from Globe and Mail...

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/whiteness-is-a-racial-construct-its-time-to-take-it-apart/article32301637/
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« Reply #130 on: October 10, 2016, 11:51:14 PM »

I'm curious if the people who get terribly angry at "political correctness" for trying to control how people speak about things ever notice how much they themselves try to control how people speak about things.
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« Reply #131 on: October 11, 2016, 04:25:54 AM »

I'm curious if the people who get terribly angry at "political correctness" for trying to control how people speak about things ever notice how much they themselves try to control how people speak about things.
Just remember that in this thread you bundled together all who dislike that article as "reactionaries". Given my real political opinions, I take "reactionary" as an offence. So, sorry, no lessons accepted.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2016, 04:39:08 AM by thorgil » Logged

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« Reply #132 on: October 11, 2016, 04:47:19 AM »

I consider political correctness as "moral fascism gone to charm school".  PC indignation is selective.  It is narrow- minded.  It's intolerant of human nature.  It's a pose of affluence (very upper-middle class).  It is never about the issue at hand, it is ultimately about power.  So it is bogus.  As a Kindergarten teacher might say, "Doesn't play well with others"...
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« Reply #133 on: October 11, 2016, 05:03:38 AM »

I consider political correctness as "moral fascism gone to charm school".  PC indignation is selective.  It is narrow- minded.  It's intolerant of human nature.  It's a pose of affluence (very upper-middle class).  It is never about the issue at hand, it is ultimately about power.  So it is bogus.  As a Kindergarten teacher might say, "Doesn't play well with others"...
The problem with "political correctness" is that it mixes a lot a lot of sacrosanct things with a lot of absurdity, with the result that it ends seeming all absurd. Personally, this old "leftist" started realising that there was something deeply wrong with P.C. when it condemned one of the greatest novels ever, Huckleberry Finn, a book who moved me to tears.
But targeting Pet Sounds... really. Even worse. As there is nothing whatsoever in it which can be construed as remotely offensive to anyone, it's simply accused of being "white". Just gimme a break.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWG2dsXV5HI
« Last Edit: October 11, 2016, 05:13:36 AM by thorgil » Logged

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« Reply #134 on: October 11, 2016, 06:58:17 AM »

I'm curious if the people who get terribly angry at "political correctness" for trying to control how people speak about things ever notice how much they themselves try to control how people speak about things.

I'm not sure whether you were referring to my resurrection of this thread or John Lemon's response, but I wonder if you care to actually address my point.

Let me put it another way. I'm white, but I grew up in a section of  Salt Lake City that was majority minority.  Solid majority Hispanic with a lot of Polynesian mixed in.  My school district was the first majority minority district in the state.  My particular neighborhood was mostly Polynesian, so the soundtrack to my childhood was a mix of Jawaiian and traditional Samoan folk. In fact, my first exposure to Beach Boys music was  neighbors playing the surf stuff on ukuleles.  I came to love the traditional Samoan/Tongan stuff the best and I still listen to it heavily today.

Now, let's take the passage I cited before and replace the white stuff with Polynesian:

"For a lot of listeners, Fau'ula stands for Poly-dad folk, which stands for a worldview we’re in the necessary process of dismantling."

Would anybody ever say that? Hell no. It would truly be immoral, bigoted and racist. I find it fascinating that popular Progressive culture finds it cool-- nay, necessary-- to throw one culture/race under the bus as the single exception to their Prime Directive.  The rationale for this is what I'm interested in understanding.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2016, 07:00:12 AM by bonnevillemariner » Logged
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« Reply #135 on: October 11, 2016, 07:46:20 AM »

I'm curious if the people who get terribly angry at "political correctness" for trying to control how people speak about things ever notice how much they themselves try to control how people speak about things.

I'm not sure whether you were referring to my resurrection of this thread or John Lemon's response, but I wonder if you care to actually address my point.

Let me put it another way. I'm white, but I grew up in a section of  Salt Lake City that was majority minority.  Solid majority Hispanic with a lot of Polynesian mixed in.  My school district was the first majority minority district in the state.  My particular neighborhood was mostly Polynesian, so the soundtrack to my childhood was a mix of Jawaiian and traditional Samoan folk. In fact, my first exposure to Beach Boys music was  neighbors playing the surf stuff on ukuleles.  I came to love the traditional Samoan/Tongan stuff the best and I still listen to it heavily today.

Now, let's take the passage I cited before and replace the white stuff with Polynesian:

"For a lot of listeners, Fau'ula stands for Poly-dad folk, which stands for a worldview we’re in the necessary process of dismantling."

Would anybody ever say that? Hell no. It would truly be immoral, bigoted and racist. I find it fascinating that popular Progressive culture finds it cool-- nay, necessary-- to throw one culture/race under the bus as the single exception to their Prime Directive.  The rationale for this is what I'm interested in understanding.

My comment was not specific to your comment, but rather that there are now 6 pages of denunciations of rather mild commentary saying that, basically, rock and roll started out primarily as a black medium and rapidly became a primarily white medium. The denunciations of 'political correctness' and 'social justice warriors' are now a very aggressive silencing and social censoring force of their own. Anti-political correctness, which is basically that you can't criticize racism or sexism, is its own powerful political correctness. But none of the people shouting down people who discuss racism seem to notice that they are trying to control expression every bit as much, and in the same way, as political correctness does.

Regarding your specific comment, if we lived in a society in which the hegemonic power and culture had been, for centuries, Polynesian - in a culture in which virtually all senators, congress people, presidents, judges, business leaders, governors, millionaires and billionaires, news reporters and anchor people, and talk show hosts and show runners had been Polynesian - though a significant minority of the population had been white people all that time; and if that society had actually, for the vast majority of that time, up until the living memory of many white people,  by law suppressed white people; and if in that society white people still disproportionately experienced violence and incarceration by the state, and if there remained, say, 42% of the population supporting a Polynesian presidential candidate with a life-long history of anti-white statements and actions, I would find it not offensive that someone wrote a mention of 'Poly-dad' music.
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« Reply #136 on: October 11, 2016, 08:45:29 AM »

Regarding your specific comment, if we lived in a society in which the hegemonic power and culture had been, for centuries, Polynesian - in a culture in which virtually all senators, congress people, presidents, judges, business leaders, governors, millionaires and billionaires, news reporters and anchor people, and talk show hosts and show runners had been Polynesian - though a significant minority of the population had been white people all that time; and if that society had actually, for the vast majority of that time, up until the living memory of many white people,  by law suppressed white people; and if in that society white people still disproportionately experienced violence and incarceration by the state, and if there remained, say, 42% of the population supporting a Polynesian presidential candidate with a life-long history of anti-white statements and actions, I would find it not offensive that someone wrote a mention of 'Poly-dad' music.

Your view is based on several assumptions, some of which I outright reject and some of which I'm open to considering, provided that reliable data can be produced that supports them.  

Your first claim, that Western culture (which you simplify as "white") collectively holds an inordinate percentage of power/money, is anecdotal and very generalized, but probably true.  You see that as inherently bad, and most of the people I hear this argument from are convinced that it MUST be the result of tyranny and oppression rather than a mix of that and, say, dumb luck or innovation.  That view also assumes that every member of that race has somehow benefited from this, and that all members of that race are collectively responsible for the bad.

While you can point to some specific periods where the dominant white culture legally suppressed others, I reject the assumption that this is the case today, especially when compared to other current situations in the world.  

I'm open to considering your implication that minorities disproportionately experience violence and incarceration by the state, provided you can produce supporting data from official government sources (so, like, not Mother Jones or the Southern Poverty Law Center).  

Your last point is politics, and I reject it for several reasons, not the least of which is the fact that said presidential candidate was never referred to as racist until he put an (R) after his name.  Said candidate, in fact, has been a Democrat all his life and has financially supported his Democratic opponent for 30 years.  This argument discounts voters who find his opponent utterly corrupt and equally disgusting (which I'm sure you attribute to misogyny), and have determined him to be the slightly lesser of two evils.  I think Trump is a scumbag, but guess who my Polynesian neighbors support?  Racist bastards!
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« Reply #137 on: October 11, 2016, 08:47:22 AM »

The points about white privilege are well-taken, however Pet Sounds is beautiful and eternal, and will likely survive any BS thrown at it. Art is born from the set of circumstances that lead to it's creation, but ultimately the creation itself stands independent of those things. Pet Sounds and Forever Changes are to me the same "type" of music, whose only color is GOLDEN. And Arthur Lee would be pissed if anyone told him he was playing "white" music ... art and creativity and creative scenes transcend social constructs such as "race".
« Last Edit: October 11, 2016, 08:58:37 AM by DonnyL » Logged

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« Reply #138 on: October 11, 2016, 02:39:22 PM »

Regarding your specific comment, if we lived in a society in which the hegemonic power and culture had been, for centuries, Polynesian - in a culture in which virtually all senators, congress people, presidents, judges, business leaders, governors, millionaires and billionaires, news reporters and anchor people, and talk show hosts and show runners had been Polynesian - though a significant minority of the population had been white people all that time; and if that society had actually, for the vast majority of that time, up until the living memory of many white people,  by law suppressed white people; and if in that society white people still disproportionately experienced violence and incarceration by the state, and if there remained, say, 42% of the population supporting a Polynesian presidential candidate with a life-long history of anti-white statements and actions, I would find it not offensive that someone wrote a mention of 'Poly-dad' music.

Your view is based on several assumptions, some of which I outright reject and some of which I'm open to considering, provided that reliable data can be produced that supports them.  

Your first claim, that Western culture (which you simplify as "white") collectively holds an inordinate percentage of power/money, is anecdotal and very generalized, but probably true.  You see that as inherently bad, and most of the people I hear this argument from are convinced that it MUST be the result of tyranny and oppression rather than a mix of that and, say, dumb luck or innovation.  That view also assumes that every member of that race has somehow benefited from this, and that all members of that race are collectively responsible for the bad.

While you can point to some specific periods where the dominant white culture legally suppressed others, I reject the assumption that this is the case today, especially when compared to other current situations in the world.  

I'm open to considering your implication that minorities disproportionately experience violence and incarceration by the state, provided you can produce supporting data from official government sources (so, like, not Mother Jones or the Southern Poverty Law Center).  

Your last point is politics, and I reject it for several reasons, not the least of which is the fact that said presidential candidate was never referred to as racist until he put an (R) after his name.  Said candidate, in fact, has been a Democrat all his life and has financially supported his Democratic opponent for 30 years.  This argument discounts voters who find his opponent utterly corrupt and equally disgusting (which I'm sure you attribute to misogyny), and have determined him to be the slightly lesser of two evils.  I think Trump is a scumbag, but guess who my Polynesian neighbors support?  Racist bastards!
A small point - I made no reference in my above comment to "white" culture; just to "white" people. And you've made some incorrect assumptions about my assumptions.
Second, I'm not going to have an argument on whether 300+ years of race-based slavery and 100 years of Jim Crow had race-based economic outcomes. Even if it didn't, my point would be unchanged. I would still, given that one ethnicity has a cultural, political and economic hegemony and has had for centuries for any reason, not feel offended by someone making a reference to "x-culture-dad music."
Regarding said candidate, in the New York media market he's been a known racist since I was a child.

« Last Edit: October 11, 2016, 03:03:18 PM by Emily » Logged
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« Reply #139 on: October 11, 2016, 02:45:52 PM »

Quote
Regarding said candidate, in the New York media market he's been a known racist since I was a child.

Yep...this is nothing new.

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« Reply #140 on: October 11, 2016, 03:04:41 PM »

The points about white privilege are well-taken, however Pet Sounds is beautiful and eternal, and will likely survive any BS thrown at it. Art is born from the set of circumstances that lead to it's creation, but ultimately the creation itself stands independent of those things. Pet Sounds and Forever Changes are to me the same "type" of music, whose only color is GOLDEN. And Arthur Lee would be pissed if anyone told him he was playing "white" music ... art and creativity and creative scenes transcend social constructs such as "race".
I agree.
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« Reply #141 on: October 11, 2016, 07:04:07 PM »

This argument discounts voters who find his opponent utterly corrupt and equally disgusting (which I'm sure you attribute to misogyny), and have determined him to be the slightly lesser of two evils.

I genuinely don't know how that could be possible though and I don't like Clinton at all.

Just today, Clinton unveiled a new policy aimed at recovery for poor families that goes against the terrible welfare-reform policies that she has touted in the past. Meanwhile I don't think Trump has a single position that looks like it will help anyone.
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« Reply #142 on: October 11, 2016, 07:26:25 PM »

Quote
This argument discounts voters who find his opponent utterly corrupt and equally disgusting (which I'm sure you attribute to misogyny), and have determined him to be the slightly lesser of two evils.
This belongs in the sandbox, but...

some of us find them both detestable and are not voting for either.
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« Reply #143 on: October 12, 2016, 10:57:37 AM »

quote author=♩♬ John Lemon ♯♫♩ link=topic=24451.msg592598#msg592598 date=1476239185]
Quote
This argument discounts voters who find his opponent utterly corrupt and equally disgusting (which I'm sure you attribute to misogyny), and have determined him to be the slightly lesser of two evils.
This belongs in the sandbox, but...

some of us find them both detestable and are not voting for either.
[/quote]





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« Reply #144 on: October 12, 2016, 11:00:53 AM »

LMFAO that's awesome
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« Reply #145 on: October 12, 2016, 11:14:30 AM »

 LOL
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And production aside, I’d so much rather hear a 14 year old David Marks shred some guitar on Chug-a-lug than hear a 51 year old Mike Love sing about bangin some chick in a swimming pool.-rab2591
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« Reply #146 on: October 12, 2016, 01:42:47 PM »

quote author=♩♬ John Lemon ♯♫♩ link=topic=24451.msg592598#msg592598 date=1476239185]
Quote
This argument discounts voters who find his opponent utterly corrupt and equally disgusting (which I'm sure you attribute to misogyny), and have determined him to be the slightly lesser of two evils.
This belongs in the sandbox, but...

some of us find them both detestable and are not voting for either.


 I have been a fan of this site for quite awhile but always been too nervous to state my opinion. I am only in my early 20's, a huge Brian fan and I'd hate to see politics creeping into our wonderful music reality of Brian Wilson. The TV is on constantly at our house and I happily put my head phones on to listen to Pet sounds to escape the crazy politics in our world. Can we please get back to the music? Now that I have officially posted my first response I'm anxious to get a real discussion going.



[/quote]
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« Reply #147 on: October 12, 2016, 01:46:00 PM »

quote author=♩♬ John Lemon ♯♫♩ link=topic=24451.msg592598#msg592598 date=1476239185]
Quote
This argument discounts voters who find his opponent utterly corrupt and equally disgusting (which I'm sure you attribute to misogyny), and have determined him to be the slightly lesser of two evils.
This belongs in the sandbox, but...

some of us find them both detestable and are not voting for either.


 I have been a fan of this site for quite awhile but always been too nervous to state my opinion. I am only in my early 20's, a huge Brian fan and I'd hate to see politics creeping into our wonderful music reality of Brian Wilson. The TV is on constantly at our house and I happily put my head phones on to listen to Pet sounds to escape the crazy politics in our world. Can we please get back to the music? Now that I have officially posted my first response I'm anxious to get a real discussion going.



[/quote]
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« Reply #148 on: October 12, 2016, 01:47:30 PM »

quote author=♩♬ John Lemon ♯♫♩ link=topic=24451.msg592598#msg592598 date=1476239185]
Quote
This argument discounts voters who find his opponent utterly corrupt and equally disgusting (which I'm sure you attribute to misogyny), and have determined him to be the slightly lesser of two evils.
This belongs in the sandbox, but...

some of us find them both detestable and are not voting for either.

AGREE!!!!
 I have been a fan of this site for quite awhile but always been too nervous to state my opinion. I am only in my early 20's, a huge Brian fan and I'd hate to see politics creeping into our wonderful music reality of Brian Wilson. The TV is on constantly at our house and I happily put my head phones on to listen to Pet sounds to escape the crazy politics in our world. Can we please get back to the music? Now that I have officially posted my first response I'm anxious to get a real discussion going.



[/quote]
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♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇
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« Reply #149 on: October 12, 2016, 01:53:39 PM »

I think the quote function broke
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