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Author Topic: Pet Sounds and Race  (Read 21093 times)
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Jay
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« Reply #100 on: September 29, 2016, 11:45:28 AM »

Good point...as that famous quote came in June 1967 at the Monterrey Pop festival, where our Boys were originally supposed to perform...
Actually, no it didn't. The quote in question("and you'll never hear surf music again") is from "Third Stone From The Sun" from the "Are You Expserienced?" album.
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« Reply #101 on: September 29, 2016, 11:50:00 AM »

I agree that Pet Sounds is not a good album to use in the context of the article. I also agree that the article fails in its main thesis. But I think the reaction against the article in this thread is both disproportionate and misguided.  The article really isn't about the Beach Boys or Brian Wilson, or even Pet Sounds. Yes, that was thrown in as click-bait. But the article makes many valid points that are being dismissed for reactionary reasons.

The headline was the clickbait. The entire crux of the article revolves around the writer's attempts to tie his commentary and citing of quotes and published sources to the Pet Sounds album. Every one of the 4 pages ties the sociology to the Beach Boys and Pet Sounds specifically, and proceeds to paint a picture of Pet Sounds as the prime example of what the author is trying to convey. The logic of such claims is absurd, as specific as multiple points on every page which are intertwined with the album.

If the main focus of the piece is the Pet Sounds album, and that is not a good example to use, if the article fails in its main thesis...isn't that similar to ordering breakfast and getting cold eggs, under-cooked homefries, and burnt toast and saying it was a good meal because the diner gave free refills on the coffee?

Good point, Craig.  I didn't emphasize that enough in my comments - sort of danced around it.  With PS the foundation of the argument, it's ridiculous.  Social and industry influences of the time might have been a decent premise if the student/author had provided better references.  But Pet Sounds was so multi-cultural in its musical influences, and accepted on a multi-cultural level, as well, that it's one of the worst examples that could have been chosen for the premise.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2016, 11:51:03 AM by Debbie KL » Logged
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« Reply #102 on: September 29, 2016, 11:55:50 AM »

Sincere question, Emily: why do you think people are primed to respond negatively to discussions about race?
Because it makes them feel bad.

And why does it make them feel bad? Because they're racist?
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« Reply #103 on: September 29, 2016, 12:00:41 PM »

Good vibrations was psychedelic R&B.
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And production aside, Iíd so much rather hear a 14 year old David Marks shred some guitar on Chug-a-lug than hear a 51 year old Mike Love sing about bangin some chick in a swimming pool.-rab2591
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« Reply #104 on: September 29, 2016, 12:03:13 PM »

Sincere question, Emily: why do you think people are primed to respond negatively to discussions about race?
Because it makes them feel bad.

And why does it make them feel bad? Because they're racist?
I suppose there are a variety of reasons that I don't fully understand. I expect for some, it's partially because they're racist; I expect for some, it's because they think they or someone they care about or admire is wrongly being called racist. It seems that most don't believe that racism is an active force in our society and I think some think that talking about racism creates unnecessary conflict.

« Last Edit: September 29, 2016, 12:04:04 PM by Emily » Logged
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« Reply #105 on: September 29, 2016, 12:04:48 PM »

Sincere question, Emily: why do you think people are primed to respond negatively to discussions about race?
Because it makes them feel bad.

And why does it make them feel bad? Because they're racist?
I suppose there are a variety of reasons that I don't fully understand. I expect for some, it's partially because they're racist; I expect for some, it's because they think they or someone they care about or admire is wrongly being called racist. It seems that most don't believe that racism is an active force in our society and I think some think that talking about racism creates unnecessary conflict.


I appreciate and totally agree with your response.
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Emily
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« Reply #106 on: September 29, 2016, 12:06:03 PM »

Sincere question, Emily: why do you think people are primed to respond negatively to discussions about race?
Because it makes them feel bad.

And why does it make them feel bad? Because they're racist?

I suppose there are a variety of reasons that I don't fully understand. I expect for some, it's partially because they're racist; I expect for some, it's because they think they or someone they care about or admire is wrongly being called racist. It seems that most don't believe that racism is an active force in our society and I think some think that talking about racism creates unnecessary conflict.


I appreciate and totally agree with your response.
Here's where I wish I had a "like" button. :-)

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« Last Edit: September 29, 2016, 12:59:05 PM by Emily » Logged
♩♬☮ Billy C ♯♫♩☮
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« Reply #107 on: September 29, 2016, 12:54:54 PM »

This is my version of a like button...
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« Reply #108 on: September 29, 2016, 01:01:55 PM »

This is my version of a like button...

   Cheesy
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« Reply #109 on: September 29, 2016, 01:03:30 PM »

 
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And production aside, Iíd so much rather hear a 14 year old David Marks shred some guitar on Chug-a-lug than hear a 51 year old Mike Love sing about bangin some chick in a swimming pool.-rab2591
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« Reply #110 on: September 29, 2016, 02:35:56 PM »

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« Reply #111 on: September 29, 2016, 04:30:03 PM »

That one needs to be an emoticon too!  Grin
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« Reply #112 on: September 29, 2016, 07:10:37 PM »



Thank you John, though I'm not very clever and I can't tell whether I'm being teased or praised. And either way I take your comment in a very wonderful and affectionate spirit.




uote author=john k link=topic=24451.msg591597#msg591597 date=1475093539]
Friends, welcome to the professor's world: please don't worry yourselves about looking for substance. In the modern academy, critical analysis has been replaced with the simple binary matrices of race, class and gender. Simply to assert the existence of one matrix in any given context (here re: Pet Sounds) is, in itself, the entirety of the critical argument.  I get paid for combating this "Chinese cultural revolution" type of totalitarian thinking in real life, so pardon me if I say no more about it here, where I draw no pay. 

Believe me, professor, you are pardoned in full. LOL
[/quote]
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« Reply #113 on: September 30, 2016, 02:08:36 AM »

Thank you John, though I'm not very clever and I can't tell whether I'm being teased or praised. And either way I take your comment in a very wonderful and affectionate spirit.

Praised. And thank you, sir.
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« Reply #114 on: October 05, 2016, 09:23:01 AM »

Does the author know that the Wreckin' Crew were jazz musicians, which is the least racist musical subculture that one could imagine?
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« Reply #115 on: October 06, 2016, 12:48:44 PM »

Does the author know that the Wreckin' Crew were jazz musicians, which is the least racist musical subculture that one could imagine?

lol yah ok jazz wasn't segregated at all!

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« Reply #116 on: October 07, 2016, 07:34:31 AM »

Does the author know that the Wreckin' Crew were jazz musicians, which is the least racist musical subculture that one could imagine?

lol yah ok jazz wasn't segregated at all!




You picked a really bad example in Benny Goodman if that photo of him is supposed to prove a point.

I can expand a lot on the topic of jazz, especially that era, but I'd suggest you research these names: John Hammond, Charlie Christian, Teddy Wilson, Lionel Hampton, Fletcher Henderson, and related jazz figures and see how it all ties in...and makes the example of that photo completely irrelevant. It's a fascinating topic to research and if anything, maybe you'll be able to check out some great jazz of the 30's in the process.

I'd be more than happy to discuss it, but consider that Goodman (the bandleader with the clarinet in the photo) led one of if not the most prominent "mixed race" (using the term from the era 'mixed') bands in the 1930's during a time when certain hotels wouldn't allow black musicians to use the same elevators as white musicians in New York. And it was guys like Hammond who fought hard against that racism and supported and promoted musicians based on their music, not race, and in some cases paid their own money to get the black musicians recorded and played on the radio. Hammond also discovered Billie Holliday in her teens and got her first recording date with...Benny Goodman. The guy playing clarinet in the photo.

Just like the original thesis on Pet Sounds...bad example.

It wasn't the musicians.
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« Reply #117 on: October 07, 2016, 07:42:13 AM »

Benny Goodman at an October 1940 session with John Hammond (standing), Charlie Christian (electric guitar, front row), and Count Basie with members of his band including Freddie Green, Lester Young, Walter Page, Jo Jones, and Buck Clayton.

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ďSome people think you have to knock somebody down in order to build yourself up, I donít look at it that way. To the mentality that likes to disparage other people, I say perhaps you should get a life. Itís just wrong thinking in my opinion and I donít mind saying that.Ē - Mike Love

"Every single person who criticized Brian for having She & Him, Kacey Musgraves, Sebu and Nate Ruess guesting on his solo album can now officially go heartily f*** themselves." - Wirestone
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« Reply #118 on: October 07, 2016, 07:53:33 AM »

Touchť, Guitarfool!

The "classic" Dave Brubeck Quartet was integrated and went through a lot of grief for it (for example, on a TV appearance the producer wanted to make sure bassist Eugene Wright wasn't seen. Brubeck would have none of that)

Louis Armstrong's band in the 50s was integrated - as a result he wasn't allowed to perform in his home town (shame!)
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« Reply #119 on: October 07, 2016, 10:17:27 AM »

lol thanks for mansplaining jazz to me!
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« Reply #120 on: October 07, 2016, 12:18:05 PM »

If you can pick out examples of "mixed" groups and say they had a hard time for it, I think that kind of underscores the notion that the genre was segregated.
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« Reply #121 on: October 07, 2016, 02:46:37 PM »

Good vibrations was psychedelic R&B.

  It definitely could have been.

  Chuck Berry obviously meant more to The Beach Boys than any white rock & rollers of the 50s. Especially Carl and Mike.
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« Reply #122 on: October 07, 2016, 03:36:50 PM »

If you can pick out examples of "mixed" groups and say they had a hard time for it, I think that kind of underscores the notion that the genre was segregated.

Actually, I'm pretty sure GF meant that although segregation was institutionalized at this point in history, these musicians were pretty intent on thumbing their nose at it. Quite rightly so.
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GREAT post, Rab!


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« Reply #123 on: October 07, 2016, 06:36:25 PM »

Thanks Craig for being the voice of reason here. As a lover of jazz, black, white and mixed, I'd like to add much but I'll auto-censor. Being dismissed as a reactionary once is enough. If it's some weird test of strength, I'll happily lose. "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent."
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« Reply #124 on: October 07, 2016, 09:25:55 PM »

 Besides Brubeck and Armstrong, musicians such as Miles Davis and Dizzy Gillespie worked with, recorded with and performed with the likes of Gil Evans, Gerry Mulligan, Chet Baker, Woody Herman and others. They did so because these were top shelf performers and band leaders who fit in well with their particular styles. The backward laws in parts of the US might have been an effort to keep the races apart, but as was posted earlier, these musicians thumbed their noses at that, choosing their personnel for their talents, not their race.
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