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Author Topic: Buddy Holly  (Read 3045 times)
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« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2016, 09:30:27 AM »

It's easy to imagine Buddy succeeding in the 60's because he didn't live through it.

I think that's exactly correct. It's why musicians (or any artists, or celebrities, etc.) who die young can maintain that sheen, to some extent. When you die before you fail, speculation can always be overly optimistic (if not especially realistic).

Holly wrote some really, really great songs in a short career--more good ones than any of the other guys you mentioned in my opinion, though I know that's debatable--and also had already expanded his stylistic palette (which shows some versatility), so it's always possible his career could have had an assortment of resurgences along the way. But who knows? He might have had a consistent career, he might have had an Orbison-like late resurgence, or he may have just always been a nostalgia trip or has-been.
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« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2016, 11:13:55 AM »

Buddy was only 22 years old when he died in 1959. It is unlikely that he had already reached his creative peak. I don't think there was another '50s rock n roller who was as talented and young as Buddy would have been entering the '60s. I can imagine his success continuing into '64-65 unbridled (and riding waves of nostalgia through the 80s). Beyond that? Well, that would depend on if he had yet to create his 'Pet Sounds' or 'Good Vibrations'. Even still, the public at large will eventually get tired of you. My point is, I don't think it's all that appropriate to assume that Buddy would have suffered the same fate as many of the other rock n rollers mentioned in this thread, simply because his best was most likely not behind him. Of course, it's perfectly fine to consider it.

I often wonder if John and Paul's admiration for Buddy Holly could have aided Buddy's career in the '60s. Particularly, the late '60s. Of course, if Buddy had lived, it would have changed how they felt about him to some extent. He would have become a competitor, he may have experimented with music that John and Paul didn't care as much for at the time. Who knows? Okay, now I'm going off into fairy-tale land... imagine if they brought Buddy in during the Get Back sessions? That would have been amazing. I doubt The Beatles end in despair, and it would certainly help the longevity of Buddy's career (if needed).
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« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2016, 08:13:31 PM »

I am going to catch flack for this but here goes...

I believe Buddy would have out Brian-Wilson'd Brian Wilson.

Yep.
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« Reply #28 on: December 20, 2016, 09:30:09 PM »

Buddy was only 22 years old when he died in 1959. It is unlikely that he had already reached his creative peak. I don't think there was another '50s rock n roller who was as talented and young as Buddy would have been entering the '60s. I can imagine his success continuing into '64-65 unbridled (and riding waves of nostalgia through the 80s). Beyond that? Well, that would depend on if he had yet to create his 'Pet Sounds' or 'Good Vibrations'. Even still, the public at large will eventually get tired of you. My point is, I don't think it's all that appropriate to assume that Buddy would have suffered the same fate as many of the other rock n rollers mentioned in this thread, simply because his best was most likely not behind him. Of course, it's perfectly fine to consider it.

I often wonder if John and Paul's admiration for Buddy Holly could have aided Buddy's career in the '60s. Particularly, the late '60s. Of course, if Buddy had lived, it would have changed how they felt about him to some extent. He would have become a competitor, he may have experimented with music that John and Paul didn't care as much for at the time. Who knows? Okay, now I'm going off into fairy-tale land... imagine if they brought Buddy in during the Get Back sessions? That would have been amazing. I doubt The Beatles end in despair, and it would certainly help the longevity of Buddy's career (if needed).
Just because an artist is doing their best music doesn't mean the public will follow. Rick Nelson arguably bettered his late 50's/early 60's records when he recorded with the Stone Canyon  Band in the 70's. Critically, those albums are well regarded, but aside from She Belongs to Me and Garden Party, they didn't mean much in terms of commercial acceptance.
But I can imagine a long haired, sunglass-wearing Buddy showing up at Madison Square Garden in 1971 and getting a similar reception to Nelson.
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« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2016, 12:48:32 AM »

Just because an artist is doing their best music doesn't mean the public will follow. Rick Nelson arguably bettered his late 50's/early 60's records when he recorded with the Stone Canyon  Band in the 70's. Critically, those albums are well regarded, but aside from She Belongs to Me and Garden Party, they didn't mean much in terms of commercial acceptance.
But I can imagine a long haired, sunglass-wearing Buddy showing up at Madison Square Garden in 1971 and getting a similar reception to Nelson.
This is fair, esp. the 1st sentence. He'd be loyal to the 50s rock&roll etc. There's doubt he'd change much.
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« Reply #30 on: December 21, 2016, 08:34:06 AM »

Buddy was only 22 years old when he died in 1959. It is unlikely that he had already reached his creative peak. I don't think there was another '50s rock n roller who was as talented and young as Buddy would have been entering the '60s. I can imagine his success continuing into '64-65 unbridled (and riding waves of nostalgia through the 80s). Beyond that? Well, that would depend on if he had yet to create his 'Pet Sounds' or 'Good Vibrations'. Even still, the public at large will eventually get tired of you. My point is, I don't think it's all that appropriate to assume that Buddy would have suffered the same fate as many of the other rock n rollers mentioned in this thread, simply because his best was most likely not behind him. Of course, it's perfectly fine to consider it.

I often wonder if John and Paul's admiration for Buddy Holly could have aided Buddy's career in the '60s. Particularly, the late '60s. Of course, if Buddy had lived, it would have changed how they felt about him to some extent. He would have become a competitor, he may have experimented with music that John and Paul didn't care as much for at the time. Who knows? Okay, now I'm going off into fairy-tale land... imagine if they brought Buddy in during the Get Back sessions? That would have been amazing. I doubt The Beatles end in despair, and it would certainly help the longevity of Buddy's career (if needed).
Just because an artist is doing their best music doesn't mean the public will follow. Rick Nelson arguably bettered his late 50's/early 60's records when he recorded with the Stone Canyon  Band in the 70's. Critically, those albums are well regarded, but aside from She Belongs to Me and Garden Party, they didn't mean much in terms of commercial acceptance.
But I can imagine a long haired, sunglass-wearing Buddy showing up at Madison Square Garden in 1971 and getting a similar reception to Nelson.

But you can't compare Ricky Nelson to Buddy. Had Buddy lived,  the entire course of popular music would likely have changed as a result. The Beatles (and so many others) were immensely influenced by Holly's death. Take Buddy's death out of the equation and the Beatles' change. Change the Beatles and ALL the rules from the 60's and 70's onwards are changed.

Had Buddy lived he probably would have hit his peak creatively/commercially around 1964 (27 years old seems to be the creative/commercial peak for many big acts).

Who knows? It's kind of interesting to speculate about though.
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« Reply #31 on: December 21, 2016, 02:11:29 PM »

Buddy was only 22 years old when he died in 1959. It is unlikely that he had already reached his creative peak. I don't think there was another '50s rock n roller who was as talented and young as Buddy would have been entering the '60s. I can imagine his success continuing into '64-65 unbridled (and riding waves of nostalgia through the 80s). Beyond that? Well, that would depend on if he had yet to create his 'Pet Sounds' or 'Good Vibrations'. Even still, the public at large will eventually get tired of you. My point is, I don't think it's all that appropriate to assume that Buddy would have suffered the same fate as many of the other rock n rollers mentioned in this thread, simply because his best was most likely not behind him. Of course, it's perfectly fine to consider it.

I often wonder if John and Paul's admiration for Buddy Holly could have aided Buddy's career in the '60s. Particularly, the late '60s. Of course, if Buddy had lived, it would have changed how they felt about him to some extent. He would have become a competitor, he may have experimented with music that John and Paul didn't care as much for at the time. Who knows? Okay, now I'm going off into fairy-tale land... imagine if they brought Buddy in during the Get Back sessions? That would have been amazing. I doubt The Beatles end in despair, and it would certainly help the longevity of Buddy's career (if needed).
Just because an artist is doing their best music doesn't mean the public will follow. Rick Nelson arguably bettered his late 50's/early 60's records when he recorded with the Stone Canyon  Band in the 70's. Critically, those albums are well regarded, but aside from She Belongs to Me and Garden Party, they didn't mean much in terms of commercial acceptance.
But I can imagine a long haired, sunglass-wearing Buddy showing up at Madison Square Garden in 1971 and getting a similar reception to Nelson.

But you can't compare Ricky Nelson to Buddy. Had Buddy lived,  the entire course of popular music would likely have changed as a result. The Beatles (and so many others) were immensely influenced by Holly's death. Take Buddy's death out of the equation and the Beatles' change. Change the Beatles and ALL the rules from the 60's and 70's onwards are changed.

Had Buddy lived he probably would have hit his peak creatively/commercially around 1964 (27 years old seems to be the creative/commercial peak for many big acts).

Who knows? It's kind of interesting to speculate about though.
Rick was roughly 29-32 when he hit his creative peak.  So I can see that for Buddy as well. But I still think he would have been wiped out by the British Invasion; might have had a few hits in later years. If you stick around long enough, people eventually rediscover your music, as happened with the Everly Brothers in the 80's, and Roy Orbison.
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« Reply #32 on: December 21, 2016, 08:58:52 PM »

Rick was roughly 29-32 when he hit his creative peak.  So I can see that for Buddy as well. But I still think he would have been wiped out by the British Invasion; might have had a few hits in later years. If you stick around long enough, people eventually rediscover your music, as happened with the Everly Brothers in the 80's, and Roy Orbison.
Agree again. We shouldn't overestimate Buddy. He's not be-all end-all. Beatles were influenced by many artists. Yes, he was good, jolly good. But he wasn't the best of the bunch. I never bought into "The day music died" thing. Such stupid statement. The Beatles kept going, if they were affected, not to the degree to call it a day & give up. They moved forward & underwent many changes bent with the styles etc.
I doubt Buddy would stick around in music business to the 80s.
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« Reply #33 on: December 21, 2016, 09:01:07 PM »

I don't believe the British Invasion would have happened had Buddy lived. That is my point.
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« Reply #34 on: December 21, 2016, 09:04:44 PM »

I disagree. But I was talking generally, that Buddy isn't too big (& only) influence to Beatles (or anybody for that matter).
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« Reply #35 on: December 21, 2016, 09:06:39 PM »

I disagree. But I was talking generally, that Buddy isn't too big (& only) influence to Beatles (or anybody for that matter).

I don't think you could be more wrong. A Grand Canyon in our difference of opinion.  LOL
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« Reply #36 on: December 21, 2016, 09:09:19 PM »

You can't know for sure too. You just speculate, just like any poster here.
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« Reply #37 on: December 21, 2016, 11:07:30 PM »

Some people just shouldn't be allowed to comment on music.
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« Reply #38 on: December 21, 2016, 11:14:06 PM »

Buddy was just one of many influences on the Beatles. Chuck Berry was a huge influence on them, especially John. I'm sure one of the highlights of his life was sharing the stage with Chuck on the Mike Douglas show in 1972. Paul was a huge fan of Little Richard, he learned how to do "Lucille" and "Long Tall Sally" almost as good as the Originator. George idolized Carl Perkins, wanted to play guitar just like him - and I think he succeeded. Remained friends with him for many years. Even in the years when he was out of the biz, he gladly grabbed his guitar to jam with Carl for an HBO special. The Everly Brothers are an obvious influence on the Beatles' harmonies, and if you sat down and talked with them about music, they would rave about Johnny Burnette and the Rock and Roll Trio, Gene Vincent, Bo Diddley, Jerry Lee Lewis, and yes, even Ricky Nelson (especially his guitar player James Burton).
Buddy was no different than other stars of the pre-British era. Roy Orbison had a #1 record the year the British invaded, but it would be his last major hit stateside for many years. After the Beatles hit, if you didn't comb your hair forward or perform as a member of a group, you were old hat. The kids wanted a new image, a new style they could call their own. It amazes me the 4 Seasons survived the onslaught of the British, because they definitely had the old look, but they were the exception.
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« Reply #39 on: December 21, 2016, 11:21:05 PM »

Just because an artist is doing their best music doesn't mean the public will follow. Rick Nelson arguably bettered his late 50's/early 60's records when he recorded with the Stone Canyon  Band in the 70's. Critically, those albums are well regarded, but aside from She Belongs to Me and Garden Party, they didn't mean much in terms of commercial acceptance.
But I can imagine a long haired, sunglass-wearing
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This is fair, esp. the 1st sentence. He'd be loyal to the 50s rock&roll etc. There's doubt he'd change much.

Would someone who had heard Surfin have ever imagined Pet Sounds or SMile? 
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« Reply #40 on: December 21, 2016, 11:59:14 PM »

Buddy was just one of many influences on the Beatles. Chuck Berry was a huge influence on them, especially John. I'm sure one of the highlights of his life was sharing the stage with Chuck on the Mike Douglas show in 1972. Paul was a huge fan of Little Richard, he learned how to do "Lucille" and "Long Tall Sally" almost as good as the Originator. George idolized Carl Perkins, wanted to play guitar just like him - and I think he succeeded. Remained friends with him for many years. Even in the years when he was out of the biz, he gladly grabbed his guitar to jam with Carl for an HBO special. The Everly Brothers are an obvious influence on the Beatles' harmonies, and if you sat down and talked with them about music, they would rave about Johnny Burnette and the Rock and Roll Trio, Gene Vincent, Bo Diddley, Jerry Lee Lewis, and yes, even Ricky Nelson (especially his guitar player James Burton).
Buddy was no different than other stars of the pre-British era. Roy Orbison had a #1 record the year the British invaded, but it would be his last major hit stateside for many years. After the Beatles hit, if you didn't comb your hair forward or perform as a member of a group, you were old hat. The kids wanted a new image, a new style they could call their own. It amazes me the 4 Seasons survived the onslaught of the British, because they definitely had the old look, but they were the exception.
Wouldn't say it better. I kind of made the same point but you expanded. Thank you.

2Billy: maybe not "Pet Sounds" but it's easy with Brian to imagine he'd step forward, change style. Not get stuck with surf'n'turf ditties. Buddy, IMO, would be loyal to the 50s music. But as I said, we just speculate here, what you think, B.E. thinks etc. - anybody here can't be right. This is aftermath discussion, Buddy's out of picture.
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« Reply #41 on: December 22, 2016, 12:36:51 AM »

I think Buddy Holly likely would have had a comeback of some kind directly as a result of people hearing his music through The Beatles.
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« Reply #42 on: December 22, 2016, 01:54:10 AM »

Buddy was just one of many influences on the Beatles. Chuck Berry was a huge influence on them, especially John. I'm sure one of the highlights of his life was sharing the stage with Chuck on the Mike Douglas show in 1972. Paul was a huge fan of Little Richard, he learned how to do "Lucille" and "Long Tall Sally" almost as good as the Originator. George idolized Carl Perkins, wanted to play guitar just like him - and I think he succeeded. Remained friends with him for many years. Even in the years when he was out of the biz, he gladly grabbed his guitar to jam with Carl for an HBO special. The Everly Brothers are an obvious influence on the Beatles' harmonies, and if you sat down and talked with them about music, they would rave about Johnny Burnette and the Rock and Roll Trio, Gene Vincent, Bo Diddley, Jerry Lee Lewis, and yes, even Ricky Nelson (especially his guitar player James Burton).
Buddy was no different than other stars of the pre-British era. Roy Orbison had a #1 record the year the British invaded, but it would be his last major hit stateside for many years. After the Beatles hit, if you didn't comb your hair forward or perform as a member of a group, you were old hat. The kids wanted a new image, a new style they could call their own. It amazes me the 4 Seasons survived the onslaught of the British, because they definitely had the old look, but they were the exception.
Wouldn't say it better. I kind of made the same point but you expanded. Thank you.

2Billy: maybe not "Pet Sounds" but it's easy with Brian to imagine he'd step forward, change style. Not get stuck with surf'n'turf ditties. Buddy, IMO, would be loyal to the 50s music. But as I said, we just speculate here, what you think, B.E. thinks etc. - anybody here can't be right. This is aftermath discussion, Buddy's out of picture.

I think you're getting what I'm saying..there's no way we can say that he would have been "loyal" to the 50s music. I use Brian as an example, but to go from tripe like Cuckoo Clock to Surf's Up in just a few years is a massive leap. We have no way of knowing if Buddy Holly would've also made a huge leap (not saying what he is known for is on the level of Cuckoo Clock, mind you). Sadly, we lost that chance. For all we know, he might have one day dropped acid and invented a style of music that sounds like a mashup of hip hop and opera...a hip hopera, if you will. Point is, we'll never know.
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« Reply #43 on: December 22, 2016, 02:01:21 AM »

Didn't say I'm right, did I? I agreed with Lonely Summer about Buddy not being bigger influence to Beatles than other artists. Besides it, said that he would be writing in that 50s style, not going with the times a-changing. I really, really, really doubt Buddy'd make massive leap. It's my view & I stand by it, you & others got different view.
You say "there's no way of knowing" - who argues? But it goes to everybody here, not sure why you quoted me to say that. This is speculation thread, I joined it to add my 2 cents, like I would to any thread where I feel like saying anything related to subject.
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« Reply #44 on: December 22, 2016, 05:08:43 AM »

Buddy was already making artistic leaps with songs like "True Love Ways".
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« Reply #45 on: December 22, 2016, 10:56:10 AM »

Imho Buddy had enormous potential. At 22 he was probably at least some years before his creative peak, and I think he WOULD have "evolved", and maybe spearheaded the evolution of rock'n'roll. Of course we'll never know, and that's a tragedy.
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« Reply #46 on: December 22, 2016, 11:36:37 AM »

Call me crazy, but I have a feeling that had he lived, Buddy might have ended up collaborating with Paul McCartney, or maybe John.
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« Reply #47 on: December 22, 2016, 04:40:26 PM »

I really like his debut album with the Crickets - definitely one of the more solid rock and roll albums of the era.
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« Reply #48 on: December 23, 2016, 08:56:01 AM »

Buddy was just one of many influences on the Beatles. Chuck Berry was a huge influence on them, especially John. I'm sure one of the highlights of his life was sharing the stage with Chuck on the Mike Douglas show in 1972. Paul was a huge fan of Little Richard, he learned how to do "Lucille" and "Long Tall Sally" almost as good as the Originator. George idolized Carl Perkins, wanted to play guitar just like him - and I think he succeeded. Remained friends with him for many years. Even in the years when he was out of the biz, he gladly grabbed his guitar to jam with Carl for an HBO special. The Everly Brothers are an obvious influence on the Beatles' harmonies, and if you sat down and talked with them about music, they would rave about Johnny Burnette and the Rock and Roll Trio, Gene Vincent, Bo Diddley, Jerry Lee Lewis, and yes, even Ricky Nelson (especially his guitar player James Burton).
Buddy was no different than other stars of the pre-British era. Roy Orbison had a #1 record the year the British invaded, but it would be his last major hit stateside for many years. After the Beatles hit, if you didn't comb your hair forward or perform as a member of a group, you were old hat. The kids wanted a new image, a new style they could call their own. It amazes me the 4 Seasons survived the onslaught of the British, because they definitely had the old look, but they were the exception.
Wouldn't say it better. I kind of made the same point but you expanded. Thank you.

2Billy: maybe not "Pet Sounds" but it's easy with Brian to imagine he'd step forward, change style. Not get stuck with surf'n'turf ditties. Buddy, IMO, would be loyal to the 50s music. But as I said, we just speculate here, what you think, B.E. thinks etc. - anybody here can't be right. This is aftermath discussion, Buddy's out of picture.

You clearly know very little about Buddy Holly. And that is not a matter of opinion.
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« Reply #49 on: December 23, 2016, 08:59:45 AM »

Buddy was already making artistic leaps with songs like "True Love Ways".

Exactly. It would be like Brian Wilson dying shortly after Shut Down vol. 2. You could have made an educated guess on where his creative powers were heading.
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