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Author Topic: God Only Knows Instruments/Credits  (Read 8588 times)
TheWonderfulHarpsichord
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« on: September 25, 2016, 12:38:09 PM »

So I have recently been trying to pick out each instrument in God Only Knows out of curiosity and to show the brilliance of Brian's arrangements.

I have been looking at various sessionographys and i'm beginning to notice many conflicting sources and credits. For example, I have seen a few sources that state that God Only Knows uses a string quartet (two violins, one viola, and one cello), and yet i have seen other sources that state a string octet is used (five violins, two violas, and one cello). I cannot tell which is true just by listening to the song alone. I have listened to the sessions and still cannot tell.

Another conflicting credit that I have also noticed is regarding the bass parts. I have seen sources that state their are two bass parts (a bass guitar and an upright bass) and other sources that that state there are three bass parts (two bass guitars and one upright bass). There is also the subject if overdubbing was used for the bass parts.

Now another debated topic for the instrument usage is the argument between whether an organ or harpsichord was used (or both). I heard Brian directly address the harpsichord in the sessions but that does not entirely rule out the possibility that both were used, as organ was also credited and yet harpsichord wasn't even though Brian directly addressed the harpsichord in the sessions.

An even more debated topic is the argument of the guitar part and if it was Carl playing it. Carl isn't credited on the sessions notes but that doesn't rule out him playing it due to the fact that the notes are known not to always credit everyone. Before i couldn't even hear the guitar part but then I finally noticed it at the beginning of the second verse. I don't know if this is true or not or where I even heard it but I remember hearing something about Bruce saying Carl was at the session playing 12-string directly plugged into the console, if anyone can find a source for this please let me know. I have listened to the sessions and I do hear another voice that sounds kinda like Brian which could be Carl, but the noodling on the session is jazz based, which i've never heard Carl do before, but I don't think that rules it out entirely since God Only Knows uses a lot of jazzy chords and i assume Carl could have been practicing, if it was him, but that's just an assumption.

I also hear Brian refer to a bass clarinet in the sessions and even see some sources state that their are two clarinets and a bass clarinet, however I cannot make any out in the song. Are there any specific points in the song where they are audible? Or are they burred in the mix?

Also regarding instruments burred in the mix, I also see a "saxophone" and baritone sax credited in the notes, again I can't make any out in the song and ask if there is any point in the song where they are specifically audible.

I know this topic is a bit of a can of worms but i'm really curious and if anyone could confirm any of these assumptions it would be much appreciated.  
« Last Edit: September 25, 2016, 02:52:12 PM by TheWonderfulHarpsichord » Logged
Mitchell
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« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2016, 03:10:09 PM »

There's an alternate version with a sax solo, which may address your last point.
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« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2016, 03:19:59 PM »

Based on my extensive examination of the session tape and AFM contract, and input from a few others on this board, here is the conclusion I have come to:

Tack piano (w/strings taped): Don Randi
Harpsichord: Larry Knechtel
12-string electric rhythm guitar: Carol Kaye
Fender bass (w/tic-tac effect): Ray Pohlman
Upright bass: Lyle Ritz
Sleighbells & Drums: Hal Blaine
Plastic orange juice cups w/sticks: Jim Gordon
Tambourine: Terry Melcher
Accordions: Carl Fortina and Frank Marocco
French horn: Alan Robinson
Alto flutes & Flutes: Bill Green and Jim Horn
Clarinet: Jay Migliori     
Bass clarinet & Clarinet: Leonard Hartman
Violins: Sid Sharp (leader) and Leonard Malarsky
Viola: Darrel Terwilliger
Cello: Jesse Erlich

There were absolutely NO overdubs on this magnificent recording, other than the vocals - however, the tag was spliced in from a separate take.
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TheWonderfulHarpsichord
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« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2016, 04:11:50 PM »

Based on my extensive examination of the session tape and AFM contract, and input from a few others on this board, here is the conclusion I have come to:

Tack piano (w/strings taped): Don Randi
Harpsichord: Larry Knechtel
12-string electric rhythm guitar: Carol Kaye
Fender bass (w/tic-tac effect): Ray Pohlman
Upright bass: Lyle Ritz
Sleighbells & Drums: Hal Blaine
Plastic orange juice cups w/sticks: Jim Gordon
Tambourine: Terry Melcher
Accordions: Carl Fortina and Frank Marocco
French horn: Alan Robinson
Alto flutes & Flutes: Bill Green and Jim Horn
Clarinet: Jay Migliori     
Bass clarinet & Clarinet: Leonard Hartman
Violins: Sid Sharp (leader) and Leonard Malarsky
Viola: Darrel Terwilliger
Cello: Jesse Erlich

There were absolutely NO overdubs on this magnificent recording, other than the vocals - however, the tag was spliced in from a separate take.


Thanks for the information. It's pretty cool how Terry played tambourine on this, never knew that.

I have read in Mark Dillion's "Fifty Sides of The Beach Boys" that he speculates that the man called "Tony" could be Tony Asher playing tambourine. Is there any evidence to support this?

I'm guessing by what you said that the saxophones didn't make the final cut or are burred in the mix. Also regarding the clarinets/bass clarinet, do you know of any specific point in the song where they are audible? I can hear them in the sessions but not in the final version, unless it's them playing along side the flutes or french horn.

Also thanks for clearing up the no over-dubs part. I don't know where the "3 bass parts" speculation has come from.   
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« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2016, 05:26:55 PM »

The 3-bass deal comes from the fact that Carol Kaye remembers playing bass on the track, which, if true, which is not a given of course, would mean there were 3 basses because we know for a fact that Ray and Lyle played bass.

As far as auditory evidence for that, I've spent nigh upon 15 years trying to decide what I think I hear.  Sometimes I'm convinced I hear another Fender under there.  Sometimes I think I'm way off.  If there are three basses, that does leave the guitar question open.  Not really sure what to think about that either and frankly I'm tired of thinking about these things.

There is the bizarre question of why the string bass was split in some fashion and given its own track in addition to being audible on the same track as the general rhythm instruments.  That's another one I'm just tired of not having an answer for.

As far as wind combinations and harpsichord versus organ, or whatever--I think that they tried some different things.  I have wondered if having the Baldwin Electric Harpsichord on the GOK session in Love & Mercy was any indication that one was there in March of '66.  The think about GOK is that the reverb AND the tape slap is probably as heavy as Brian ever had it other than for over-the-top, obvious effects.  So everything sounds really out-of-body and artificial to some extent.
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« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2016, 11:01:18 PM »

Based on my extensive examination of the session tape and AFM contract, and input from a few others on this board, here is the conclusion I have come to:

Tack piano (w/strings taped): Don Randi
Harpsichord: Larry Knechtel
12-string electric rhythm guitar: Carol Kaye
Fender bass (w/tic-tac effect): Ray Pohlman
Upright bass: Lyle Ritz
Sleighbells & Drums: Hal Blaine
Plastic orange juice cups w/sticks: Jim Gordon
Tambourine: Terry Melcher
Accordions: Carl Fortina and Frank Marocco
French horn: Alan Robinson
Alto flutes & Flutes: Bill Green and Jim Horn
Clarinet: Jay Migliori     
Bass clarinet & Clarinet: Leonard Hartman
Violins: Sid Sharp (leader) and Leonard Malarsky
Viola: Darrel Terwilliger
Cello: Jesse Erlich

There were absolutely NO overdubs on this magnificent recording, other than the vocals - however, the tag was spliced in from a separate take.


Thanks for the information. It's pretty cool how Terry played tambourine on this, never knew that.

I have read in Mark Dillion's "Fifty Sides of The Beach Boys" that he speculates that the man called "Tony" could be Tony Asher playing tambourine. Is there any evidence to support this?

I'm guessing by what you said that the saxophones didn't make the final cut or are burred in the mix. Also regarding the clarinets/bass clarinet, do you know of any specific point in the song where they are audible? I can hear them in the sessions but not in the final version, unless it's them playing along side the flutes or french horn.

Also thanks for clearing up the no over-dubs part. I don't know where the "3 bass parts" speculation has come from.   

I don't recall Tony's name being mentioned on this session...Mark Dillon writes that the sleighbells are credited on the contract to a "Tony", but that's definitely not the case: there no annotation of either "Tony" or "sleighbells" on the "GOK" AFM contract. However, on the first session for "Good Vibrations",it seems that the two guys referred to on the session tape as Tony and Terry are playing sleighbells and tambourine...perhaps that's what Mark was thinking of. The sleighbells on "GOK", however, were definitely played by Hal - there's even discussion between him and Brian about whether he had enough time to set them down and pick up his drumsticks for the snare fills in the bridge.

I don't think there were any saxophones on the session, other than the discarded overdubbed sax solo (most likely played by Bill Green, considering how much he was payed compared to the other woodwind players)...the credits in the original Pet Sounds box set list saxophones for most of the tunes, but those woodwinds players were adept at saxophones, clarinets, and flutes, and I think the sessionographer just wrote down "saxophones" without taking the time to listen and discern that they were actually clarinets (there's a disclaimer in one of the various sessionographies which even states as much). On "GOK', I believe they play in tandem with the flutes, but I think you can best pick them out in the tag.

Knowing that Carol Kaye, Ray Pohlman, and Lyle Ritz all played the session led me to originally assume these three played Fender bass, Dano bass, and upright bass, respectively. But as aeitzsche had pointed out in an earlier thread, a close listen reveals only Fender bass (with the "tic-tac" tape slap effect) and upright bass. Dialog on the session tape proves beyond any doubt that it's Ray playing the Fender, and of course Lyle is playing the upright. Assuming the three-bass scenario led me to originally conclude that Carl must be playing the guitar, but as I later pointed out on this board, and as you mentioned above, the jazzy guitar doodling between takes points to a studio pro rather than Carl, and according to someone on this board, Terry Melcher had gone on record as saying Carl did not play on the session. If Bruce was recalling that he did, perhaps he was thinking of a different session (do we have a source for that Bruce quote)?

And, there is no organ on "GOK", or on "WIBN", for that matter, despite what you see in some of the sessionographies.

One final note: all of the various Pet Sounds sessionographies included with the various CD releases of that album over the years come with a disclaimer that the information within may not be 100% accurate, but is reliable only based on the information available at the time. I will make the same disclaimer in regards to my work! As new info surfaces, the sessionographies require updates...check out www.beachboysarchives.com, where this is gradually happening.
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« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2016, 11:41:17 AM »


There is the bizarre question of why the string bass was split in some fashion and given its own track in addition to being audible on the same track as the general rhythm instruments.  That's another one I'm just tired of not having an answer for.


The original "GOK" 4-track tape has horns, violins, and accordions on one track - drums, harpsichord, piano, guitar, and percussion on another - and bass by itself on a third (actually the second) track. The fourth track contains a mono mix of the other three tracks, as is sometimes the case with BW-produced 4-tracks of this era.

If they baffled off the upright bass and recorded it with a super-directional mic, that might account for no leakage from the other instruments...but if it was baffled, would it have still picked up on the mics of the other instruments? Maybe the baffle and directional mic combined were sufficient for keeping out the sounds of the other instruments, but the baffle wasn't enough to keep the low frequencies of the upright from leaking out into the microphones of the other instruments? The only other thing that would make sense would be if Brian had Lyle redo the upright as an overdub on its own track, which would still leave the original upright sound there as leakage onto the other tracks (a similar thing happened with the drums on the 1963 track "The Rocking Surfer" - Dennis' original drumming was replaced, yet it's still there as leakage on the remaining original tracks, along with Mike's saxophone). The only problem with that "GOK" bass theory would be that there would have had to be enough time left on the clock from the original 3.75 hour session (the standard three hours plus 45 minutes of overtime) after the other musicians were dismissed, otherwise we'd expect to see a higher pay rate for Lyle (outside of officially-designated AFM session "leader" Hal Blaine and contractor Jay Migliori, the only players on the "GOK" session payed a higher rate than the others were Leonard Hartman, Bill Green, and Jim Horn - and each of their names is accompanied by a notation that they played a "double" - and in Bill Green's case, he was paid even more, evidently for staying and adding the sax solo) - but we don't see that for Lyle.

A good, and probably unanswerable, question.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2016, 11:47:35 AM by c-man » Logged
DonnyL
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« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2016, 12:18:00 PM »


There is the bizarre question of why the string bass was split in some fashion and given its own track in addition to being audible on the same track as the general rhythm instruments.  That's another one I'm just tired of not having an answer for.


The original "GOK" 4-track tape has horns, violins, and accordions on one track - drums, harpsichord, piano, guitar, and percussion on another - and bass by itself on a third (actually the second) track. The fourth track contains a mono mix of the other three tracks, as is sometimes the case with BW-produced 4-tracks of this era.

If they baffled off the upright bass and recorded it with a super-directional mic, that might account for no leakage from the other instruments...but if it was baffled, would it have still picked up on the mics of the other instruments? Maybe the baffle and directional mic combined were sufficient for keeping out the sounds of the other instruments, but the baffle wasn't enough to keep the low frequencies of the upright from leaking out into the microphones of the other instruments? The only other thing that would make sense would be if Brian had Lyle redo the upright as an overdub on its own track, which would still leave the original upright sound there as leakage onto the other tracks (a similar thing happened with the drums on the 1963 track "The Rocking Surfer" - Dennis' original drumming was replaced, yet it's still there as leakage on the remaining original tracks, along with Mike's saxophone). The only problem with that "GOK" bass theory would be that there would have had to be enough time left on the clock from the original 3.75 hour session (the standard three hours plus 45 minutes of overtime) after the other musicians were dismissed, otherwise we'd expect to see a higher pay rate for Lyle (outside of officially-designated AFM session "leader" Hal Blaine and contractor Jay Migliori, the only players on the "GOK" session payed a higher rate than the others were Leonard Hartman, Bill Green, and Jim Horn - and each of their names is accompanied by a notation that they played a "double" - and in Bill Green's case, he was paid even more, evidently for staying and adding the sax solo) - but we don't see that for Lyle.

A good, and probably unanswerable, question.

I think we've been through the ringer on this question a few times!

... I didn't know about the timeclock issue though ... do you think it's possible Lyle overdubbed the extra bass at a later date?

MAYBE the clue lies in the sax overdub. Why would they have recorded an ENTIRE band on on 2 tracks instead of 3, unless that third was to be reserved for an overdub?

Craig, do you know if the sax solo was overdubbed before or after vocal work began? Because if it were before, then a decent theory might be that the third track was reserved for the sax solo, and when Brian decided he didn't want to keep it, he may have wanted a deeper bass sound and added the upright overdub.

If the sax solo was done on the vocal tape (as an overdub on the 8-track master), then my best theory is that Brian wanted more isolation and wiggle room for that bass and it was done at the live session.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2016, 12:28:04 PM by DonnyL » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2016, 03:47:01 PM »


Assuming the three-bass scenario led me to originally conclude that Carl must be playing the guitar, but as I later pointed out on this board, and as you mentioned above, the jazzy guitar doodling between takes points to a studio pro rather than Carl, and according to someone on this board, Terry Melcher had gone on record as saying Carl did not play on the session. If Bruce was recalling that he did, perhaps he was thinking of a different session (do we have a source for that Bruce quote)?


In the September 1990 edition of Select magazine, Bruce makes the following observation about the GOK session:

"I was there!...Carl was in the booth playing 12-string cos there was no more room. And there were about six fiddles - we didn't call them strings, they were fiddles - and an electric bass and an acoustic bass and a keyboard and some percussion, and the guy who's playing the drums."
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« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2016, 05:04:01 PM »


Assuming the three-bass scenario led me to originally conclude that Carl must be playing the guitar, but as I later pointed out on this board, and as you mentioned above, the jazzy guitar doodling between takes points to a studio pro rather than Carl, and according to someone on this board, Terry Melcher had gone on record as saying Carl did not play on the session. If Bruce was recalling that he did, perhaps he was thinking of a different session (do we have a source for that Bruce quote)?


In the September 1990 edition of Select magazine, Bruce makes the following observation about the GOK session:

"I was there!...Carl was in the booth playing 12-string cos there was no more room. And there were about six fiddles - we didn't call them strings, they were fiddles - and an electric bass and an acoustic bass and a keyboard and some percussion, and the guy who's playing the drums."

Hmm...well, maybe Carl and Carol BOTH played 12-string on this session (the way Carl and Jerry Cole both played 12-string on "California Girls", and Barney and Glen both played 12-string on some of the other Pet Sounds cuts). Carol definitely played 12-string electric on the second session of "Good Vibrations" (April 9th at Gold Star), and most likely on "I'm Waiting For The Day" (similar situation to "GOK" - apparently only two basses, definitely Ray on the Fender and Lyle on the upright, leaving Carol as the probable guitarist) and the basic track to "Caroline, No" (although she also overdubbed the Dano bass on that one).
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« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2016, 05:17:20 PM »


There is the bizarre question of why the string bass was split in some fashion and given its own track in addition to being audible on the same track as the general rhythm instruments.  That's another one I'm just tired of not having an answer for.


The original "GOK" 4-track tape has horns, violins, and accordions on one track - drums, harpsichord, piano, guitar, and percussion on another - and bass by itself on a third (actually the second) track. The fourth track contains a mono mix of the other three tracks, as is sometimes the case with BW-produced 4-tracks of this era.

If they baffled off the upright bass and recorded it with a super-directional mic, that might account for no leakage from the other instruments...but if it was baffled, would it have still picked up on the mics of the other instruments? Maybe the baffle and directional mic combined were sufficient for keeping out the sounds of the other instruments, but the baffle wasn't enough to keep the low frequencies of the upright from leaking out into the microphones of the other instruments? The only other thing that would make sense would be if Brian had Lyle redo the upright as an overdub on its own track, which would still leave the original upright sound there as leakage onto the other tracks (a similar thing happened with the drums on the 1963 track "The Rocking Surfer" - Dennis' original drumming was replaced, yet it's still there as leakage on the remaining original tracks, along with Mike's saxophone). The only problem with that "GOK" bass theory would be that there would have had to be enough time left on the clock from the original 3.75 hour session (the standard three hours plus 45 minutes of overtime) after the other musicians were dismissed, otherwise we'd expect to see a higher pay rate for Lyle (outside of officially-designated AFM session "leader" Hal Blaine and contractor Jay Migliori, the only players on the "GOK" session payed a higher rate than the others were Leonard Hartman, Bill Green, and Jim Horn - and each of their names is accompanied by a notation that they played a "double" - and in Bill Green's case, he was paid even more, evidently for staying and adding the sax solo) - but we don't see that for Lyle.

A good, and probably unanswerable, question.

I think we've been through the ringer on this question a few times!

... I didn't know about the timeclock issue though ... do you think it's possible Lyle overdubbed the extra bass at a later date?

MAYBE the clue lies in the sax overdub. Why would they have recorded an ENTIRE band on on 2 tracks instead of 3, unless that third was to be reserved for an overdub?

Craig, do you know if the sax solo was overdubbed before or after vocal work began? Because if it were before, then a decent theory might be that the third track was reserved for the sax solo, and when Brian decided he didn't want to keep it, he may have wanted a deeper bass sound and added the upright overdub.

If the sax solo was done on the vocal tape (as an overdub on the 8-track master), then my best theory is that Brian wanted more isolation and wiggle room for that bass and it was done at the live session.

The sax solo was overdubbed to the 8-track master, prior to the vocal sessions...the Columbia Studios 8-track master bears the same date as that given for the Western Recorders basic tracking session (3/10)...if both dates are correct, Brian cut the basic track between midnight and 4:15am at Western, then at some point (either immediately afterward or later that day) hopped across the street to Columbia, apparently bringing Bill Green with him (or having him meet him there), and transferred the mono mix to 8-track, then overdubbed the sax. Interestingly, two versions of the sax solo were taped....one on Track 1, the second on Track 6, both later wiped and replaced with vocals - meaning the version with the sax solo on the box set exists only from a vintage rough mix).

So, I'd say your second theory is likely correct - similarly, the Fender bass on "Here Today" was delegated to its own discrete track, apparently to allow more flexibility in mixdown.
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« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2016, 05:22:51 PM »


There is the bizarre question of why the string bass was split in some fashion and given its own track in addition to being audible on the same track as the general rhythm instruments.  That's another one I'm just tired of not having an answer for.


The original "GOK" 4-track tape has horns, violins, and accordions on one track - drums, harpsichord, piano, guitar, and percussion on another - and bass by itself on a third (actually the second) track. The fourth track contains a mono mix of the other three tracks, as is sometimes the case with BW-produced 4-tracks of this era.

If they baffled off the upright bass and recorded it with a super-directional mic, that might account for no leakage from the other instruments...but if it was baffled, would it have still picked up on the mics of the other instruments? Maybe the baffle and directional mic combined were sufficient for keeping out the sounds of the other instruments, but the baffle wasn't enough to keep the low frequencies of the upright from leaking out into the microphones of the other instruments? The only other thing that would make sense would be if Brian had Lyle redo the upright as an overdub on its own track, which would still leave the original upright sound there as leakage onto the other tracks (a similar thing happened with the drums on the 1963 track "The Rocking Surfer" - Dennis' original drumming was replaced, yet it's still there as leakage on the remaining original tracks, along with Mike's saxophone). The only problem with that "GOK" bass theory would be that there would have had to be enough time left on the clock from the original 3.75 hour session (the standard three hours plus 45 minutes of overtime) after the other musicians were dismissed, otherwise we'd expect to see a higher pay rate for Lyle (outside of officially-designated AFM session "leader" Hal Blaine and contractor Jay Migliori, the only players on the "GOK" session payed a higher rate than the others were Leonard Hartman, Bill Green, and Jim Horn - and each of their names is accompanied by a notation that they played a "double" - and in Bill Green's case, he was paid even more, evidently for staying and adding the sax solo) - but we don't see that for Lyle.

A good, and probably unanswerable, question.

I think we've been through the ringer on this question a few times!

... I didn't know about the timeclock issue though ... do you think it's possible Lyle overdubbed the extra bass at a later date?

MAYBE the clue lies in the sax overdub. Why would they have recorded an ENTIRE band on on 2 tracks instead of 3, unless that third was to be reserved for an overdub?

Craig, do you know if the sax solo was overdubbed before or after vocal work began? Because if it were before, then a decent theory might be that the third track was reserved for the sax solo, and when Brian decided he didn't want to keep it, he may have wanted a deeper bass sound and added the upright overdub.

If the sax solo was done on the vocal tape (as an overdub on the 8-track master), then my best theory is that Brian wanted more isolation and wiggle room for that bass and it was done at the live session.

The sax solo was overdubbed to the 8-track master, prior to the vocal sessions...the Columbia Studios 8-track master bears the same date as that given for the Western Recorders basic tracking session (3/10)...if both dates are correct, Brian cut the basic track between midnight and 4:15am at Western, then at some point (either immediately afterward or later that day) hopped across the street to Columbia, apparently bringing Bill Green with him (or having him meet him there), and transferred the mono mix to 8-track, then overdubbed the sax. Interestingly, two versions of the sax solo were taped....one on Track 1, the second on Track 6, both later wiped and replaced with vocals - meaning the version with the sax solo on the box set exists only from a vintage rough mix).

So, I'd say your second theory is likely correct - similarly, the Fender bass on "Here Today" was delegated to its own discrete track, apparently to allow more flexibility in mixdown.

Ah makes sense, good info!

It seems so ODD to have all those instruments on two tracks, yet ONE OF TWO basses on it's own track! But who are we to question the master ...
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« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2016, 05:28:19 PM »


Assuming the three-bass scenario led me to originally conclude that Carl must be playing the guitar, but as I later pointed out on this board, and as you mentioned above, the jazzy guitar doodling between takes points to a studio pro rather than Carl, and according to someone on this board, Terry Melcher had gone on record as saying Carl did not play on the session. If Bruce was recalling that he did, perhaps he was thinking of a different session (do we have a source for that Bruce quote)?


In the September 1990 edition of Select magazine, Bruce makes the following observation about the GOK session:

"I was there!...Carl was in the booth playing 12-string cos there was no more room. And there were about six fiddles - we didn't call them strings, they were fiddles - and an electric bass and an acoustic bass and a keyboard and some percussion, and the guy who's playing the drums."

Hmm...well, maybe Carl and Carol BOTH played 12-string on this session (the way Carl and Jerry Cole both played 12-string on "California Girls", and Barney and Glen both played 12-string on some of the other Pet Sounds cuts). Carol definitely played 12-string electric on the second session of "Good Vibrations" (April 9th at Gold Star), and most likely on "I'm Waiting For The Day" (similar situation to "GOK" - apparently only two basses, definitely Ray on the Fender and Lyle on the upright, leaving Carol as the probable guitarist) and the basic track to "Caroline, No" (although she also overdubbed the Dano bass on that one).









This is all very interesting. If Carl and Carol did indeed both play on the song then did they trade parts back and forth and switch out?

On Bruce's account he says "six fiddles". I had always assumed it was a string quartet and not 6 strings. I guess there is really no way to tell while just listening.

As for the Clarinets and Saxophones i've been trying ever so hard to hear, I recently thought I heard the bass clarinet playing along side the cello and perhaps the saxophones playing along side the accordians, most noticable at the end. Though, it could just be my ears playing tricks on me...

Also thanks for the Bruce quote, I couldn't remember where I had heard it from.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2016, 05:29:10 PM by TheWonderfulHarpsichord » Logged
TheWonderfulHarpsichord
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« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2016, 05:40:18 PM »


Assuming the three-bass scenario led me to originally conclude that Carl must be playing the guitar, but as I later pointed out on this board, and as you mentioned above, the jazzy guitar doodling between takes points to a studio pro rather than Carl, and according to someone on this board, Terry Melcher had gone on record as saying Carl did not play on the session. If Bruce was recalling that he did, perhaps he was thinking of a different session (do we have a source for that Bruce quote)?


In the September 1990 edition of Select magazine, Bruce makes the following observation about the GOK session:

"I was there!...Carl was in the booth playing 12-string cos there was no more room. And there were about six fiddles - we didn't call them strings, they were fiddles - and an electric bass and an acoustic bass and a keyboard and some percussion, and the guy who's playing the drums."

Hmm...well, maybe Carl and Carol BOTH played 12-string on this session (the way Carl and Jerry Cole both played 12-string on "California Girls", and Barney and Glen both played 12-string on some of the other Pet Sounds cuts). Carol definitely played 12-string electric on the second session of "Good Vibrations" (April 9th at Gold Star), and most likely on "I'm Waiting For The Day" (similar situation to "GOK" - apparently only two basses, definitely Ray on the Fender and Lyle on the upright, leaving Carol as the probable guitarist) and the basic track to "Caroline, No" (although she also overdubbed the Dano bass on that one).


Also I thought I would bring these up. I have no idea if these are reliable sources or not. I am dedicated to get to the bottom of this!

http://www.surfermoon.com/essays/owncharts.html Carol

http://abbeyrd.best.vwh.net/carolkay.htm Carol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XByMda7YooI Isolated strings, horns, percussion, and bass

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCTVcNsJGX0

Again, I don't know if these are reliable



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« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2016, 09:50:22 PM »


Also thanks for the Bruce quote, I couldn't remember where I had heard it from.

No worries! Thanks for the YouTube link, some great isolated mixes there!
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« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2016, 11:21:50 PM »

Based on my extensive examination of the session tape and AFM contract, and input from a few others on this board, here is the conclusion I have come to:

Tack piano (w/strings taped): Don Randi
Harpsichord: Larry Knechtel
12-string electric rhythm guitar: Carol Kaye
Fender bass (w/tic-tac effect): Ray Pohlman
Upright bass: Lyle Ritz
Sleighbells & Drums: Hal Blaine
Plastic orange juice cups w/sticks: Jim Gordon
Tambourine: Terry Melcher
Accordions: Carl Fortina and Frank Marocco
French horn: Alan Robinson
Alto flutes & Flutes: Bill Green and Jim Horn
Clarinet: Jay Migliori     
Bass clarinet & Clarinet: Leonard Hartman
Violins: Sid Sharp (leader) and Leonard Malarsky
Viola: Darrel Terwilliger
Cello: Jesse Erlich

There were absolutely NO overdubs on this magnificent recording, other than the vocals - however, the tag was spliced in from a separate take.


Thanks for the information. It's pretty cool how Terry played tambourine on this, never knew that.
 

You can also hear Terry singing on the song on the alternate version that has the brilliant a capella tag. He's the different-sounding voice at the end (listen closely) that is clearly not one of The Boys' familiar voices in the mix. I wonder if Terry was bummed that this version with him singing on it wasn't the released album version!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCq3npjR9Mg

Damn I love this alternate version.
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« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2016, 07:48:58 PM »

I am dedicated to get to the bottom of this!


You won't!!  Cheesy  But good luck!
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thebaron
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« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2021, 07:47:05 PM »

There were absolutely NO overdubs on this magnificent recording, other than the vocals - however, the tag was spliced in from a separate take.

It always sounded like the french horn had to be overdubbed on that tag if there wasn't a 2nd horn present in the session, alternating playing the same line one after another. It actually sounds impossible to play without being overdubbed or a 2nd horn player present.
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« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2021, 09:52:24 AM »

There were absolutely NO overdubs on this magnificent recording, other than the vocals - however, the tag was spliced in from a separate take.

It always sounded like the french horn had to be overdubbed on that tag if there wasn't a 2nd horn present in the session, alternating playing the same line one after another. It actually sounds impossible to play without being overdubbed or a 2nd horn player present.

It's just an auditory timbral illusion.
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« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2021, 09:54:44 AM »

And incidentally in the last 5 years I think we've pretty much got it all nailed down by now.
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« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2021, 07:28:03 PM »

There were absolutely NO overdubs on this magnificent recording, other than the vocals - however, the tag was spliced in from a separate take.

It always sounded like the french horn had to be overdubbed on that tag if there wasn't a 2nd horn present in the session, alternating playing the same line one after another. It actually sounds impossible to play without being overdubbed or a 2nd horn player present.

If you mean the melodic "withouuuut" part being played in rounds at the end - that's a horn and a woodwind (although the reverb does make it sound like two horns!). All the instruments are live without a single doubt
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thebaron
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« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2021, 08:46:09 AM »

There were absolutely NO overdubs on this magnificent recording, other than the vocals - however, the tag was spliced in from a separate take.

It always sounded like the french horn had to be overdubbed on that tag if there wasn't a 2nd horn present in the session, alternating playing the same line one after another. It actually sounds impossible to play without being overdubbed or a 2nd horn player present.

If you mean the melodic "withouuuut" part being played in rounds at the end - that's a horn and a woodwind (although the reverb does make it sound like two horns!). All the instruments are live without a single doubt

It's hard to hear on anything but Take 20 of the backing track on UM, but each alternating round does sit differently in that stereo mix...and on all mixes the "2nd" horn has more reverb.

If Brian can overdub the same harpsichord on "You Still Believe in Me", why not the same horn on this...
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WillJC
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« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2021, 09:59:00 AM »

There were absolutely NO overdubs on this magnificent recording, other than the vocals - however, the tag was spliced in from a separate take.

It always sounded like the french horn had to be overdubbed on that tag if there wasn't a 2nd horn present in the session, alternating playing the same line one after another. It actually sounds impossible to play without being overdubbed or a 2nd horn player present.

If you mean the melodic "withouuuut" part being played in rounds at the end - that's a horn and a woodwind (although the reverb does make it sound like two horns!). All the instruments are live without a single doubt

It's hard to hear on anything but Take 20 of the backing track on UM, but each alternating round does sit differently in that stereo mix...and on all mixes the "2nd" horn has more reverb.

If Brian can overdub the same harpsichord on "You Still Believe in Me", why not the same horn on this...

You're hearing several other instruments overlapping, but not a second horn.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2021, 10:01:13 AM by SaltyMarshmallow » Logged
Joshilyn Hoisington
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« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2021, 10:24:30 AM »

If Brian can overdub the same harpsichord on "You Still Believe in Me", why not the same horn on this...

No free tracks would be a technical reason that there can't be an overdub.  Another one is that Al Robinson was not paid a double.  But those facts are notwithstanding the fact that there's not a second horn.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2021, 10:25:21 AM by Joshilyn Hoisington » Logged
thebaron
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« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2021, 03:45:47 PM »

There were absolutely NO overdubs on this magnificent recording, other than the vocals - however, the tag was spliced in from a separate take.

It always sounded like the french horn had to be overdubbed on that tag if there wasn't a 2nd horn present in the session, alternating playing the same line one after another. It actually sounds impossible to play without being overdubbed or a 2nd horn player present.

If you mean the melodic "withouuuut" part being played in rounds at the end - that's a horn and a woodwind (although the reverb does make it sound like two horns!). All the instruments are live without a single doubt

It's hard to hear on anything but Take 20 of the backing track on UM, but each alternating round does sit differently in that stereo mix...and on all mixes the "2nd" horn has more reverb.

If Brian can overdub the same harpsichord on "You Still Believe in Me", why not the same horn on this...

You're hearing several other instruments overlapping, but not a second horn.

You can literally hear one still playing the last note while the other horn starts. That isn't reverb either.
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