Mike's Book Discussion Thread (and how it relates to the SS board)

[Joel Goldenberg]

Mike also spends a fair amount of words denying he ever stated the "don't f--k with the formula" quote. On the other hand, he uses plenty of f-bombs throughout the book.

[seltaeb1012002]

Mike Love Good Vibrations Book Trailer - Full Version
https://youtu.be/OutWymKjErk

SPOILER: He remade the early version of "Big Sur". Complete with autotuned vocals. 

[Ang Jones]

Mike also spends a fair amount of words denying he ever stated the "don't f--k with the formula" quote. On the other hand, he uses plenty of f-bombs throughout the book.

Whether or not he used those words, he has certainly lived by that principle.

[HeyJude]

Mike also spends a fair amount of words denying he ever stated the "don't f--k with the formula" quote. On the other hand, he uses plenty of f-bombs throughout the book.

One of the tactics I've seen Mike using, especially in recent years with the proliferation of internet criticism and repetitive, sometimes ignorant attacks, is that he sort of ends up creating a partial straw man argument.

With things like "don't f**k with the formula" and "Mike fires Brian", these things have long since been disproved by fans and scholars of the band.

In the case of the former, it's really at best an apocryphal story that can't really be disproved but can't be confirmed with solid evidence either. While some pieces on the band or Mike still mention the allegation that he said this, many of those pieces point out that Mike denies it. Also, as stated, fans and scholars long ago seemed to come to the conclusion that it's a "maybe" in terms of veracity at absolute best.

As for the latter, as I've already mentioned in other posts, fans and scholars of the band knew from the outset that Mike can't literally "fire" Brian. That was lazy media pretty much just in late 2012. And again, if people didn't already know it wasn't true, Brian confirmed he can't be fired.

In both cases, the literal allegation has been debunked. But instead of acknowledging that both allegations spring from basic elements and concepts that *are* accurate (e.g. his apprehensive nature when it came to experimental lyrics, and his dismantling of a reunion and rejection of a willing and ready Brian), Mike hones in on proving why the literal core language of the allegation is technically untrue.

It's a common technique of deflection. I would always tell someone who wants to make a valid, cogent argument to explain some of the downsides to Mike that using the "don't f**k with the formula" or "Mike fired Brian" arguments is the wrong way to go, because it allows Mike to avoid answering the more fundamental questions (such as "Do you acknowledge that perhaps your being apprehensive about more progressive music ideas might have had a downside for Brian and the band?" or "You didn't fire Brian, but would you acknowledge that you did reject a willing and ready Brian in favor of your own tour?") and instead to simply play the victim by pointing out the technically incorrect verbiage being used in the criticisms.

[urbanite]

Okay, so I'll put it this way, Mike kept Brian (and Al) out of the touring Beach Boys in the fall of 2012.

For all the interviews that Mike will sit for in the next few months, would someone please ask him some questions about Summer in Paradise and why it was a complete failure.

[MarcellaHasDirtyFeet]

Okay, so I'll put it this way, Mike kept Brian (and Al) out of the touring Beach Boys in the fall of 2012.

For all the interviews that Mike will sit for in the next few months, would someone please ask him some questions about Summer in Paradise and why it was a complete failure.

Is there really some underlying mystery as to why it was a complete failure? The facts as we know them seem to speak for themselves...

[HeyJude]

I think the idea is that an appropriate time to raise the issue of the utter failure of SIP would have been back a few years when Mike had a weirdly "Meh" reaction to the TWGMTR album hitting #3 on the charts and being #1 on some online charts.

He didn't say in interviews a year after SIP came out that it was a failure. He didn't indicate they had learned anything (though perhaps he would admit that they at least learned not to try to fund doing their own album).

I would guess that Mike let the SIP issue die a quiet death because admitting it was awful would mean admitting that many things he things are emblematic of what is awesome about him and the Beach Boys (his writing, his artistic vision, John Stamos) were a total failure in every measurable way. 

[filledeplage]

Okay, so I'll put it this way, Mike kept Brian (and Al) out of the touring Beach Boys in the fall of 2012.

For all the interviews that Mike will sit for in the next few months, would someone please ask him some questions about Summer in Paradise and why it was a complete failure.

urbanite - IIRC Brian was unavailable to help with that album because of that maniac Landy.  I think (an observation) is that Lahaina Aloha was the strongest song with Carl's extraordinary yearning vocals and should have been the single released.  I do think that taken-as-a-whole, that SIP shows that they all needed each other.  I think they need Brian's production skills alongside their vocals.  

From the Endless Harmony DVD, it appears that really Brian really regretted (because he was locked away by Landy) that he was not involved with that era of work because he was forcibly separated from his bandmates.  

The music is not bad; it is the presentation that didn't work well. At the time, it didn't seem that bad but now sounds a little dated.  But, I still actually like that album just because it was something new and demonstrates that they were still trying to stay-in-the-game.

Guess I look at it differently.  

[CenturyDeprived]

Okay, so I'll put it this way, Mike kept Brian (and Al) out of the touring Beach Boys in the fall of 2012.

For all the interviews that Mike will sit for in the next few months, would someone please ask him some questions about Summer in Paradise and why it was a complete failure.

urbanite - IIRC Brian was unavailable to help with that album because of that maniac Landy.  I think (an observation) is that Lahaina Aloha was the strongest song with Carl's extraordinary yearning vocals and should have been the single released.  I do think that taken-as-a-whole, that SIP shows that they all needed each other.  I think they need Brian's production skills alongside their vocals.  

From the Endless Harmony DVD, it appears that really Brian really regretted (because he was locked away by Landy) that he was not involved with that era of work because he was forcibly separated from his bandmates.  

The music is not bad; it is the presentation that didn't work well. At the time, it didn't seem that bad but now sounds a little dated.  But, I still actually like that album just because it was something new and demonstrates that they were still trying to stay-in-the-game.

Guess I look at it differently.  

You think Summer of Love, with its "doing it with you would be so very cool" barf-tastic lyrics is a good song, and that it's just production that is its problem?

[HeyJude]

Okay, so I'll put it this way, Mike kept Brian (and Al) out of the touring Beach Boys in the fall of 2012.

For all the interviews that Mike will sit for in the next few months, would someone please ask him some questions about Summer in Paradise and why it was a complete failure.

urbanite - IIRC Brian was unavailable to help with that album because of that maniac Landy.  

I can't speak for urbanite, but I don't think questions as to the quality of SIP have much to do with whether Brian was participating or not.

When people say the album sucks, they're not saying it sucks solely or even much at all because Brian wasn't there. That certainly didn't help (especially with promotion and with critics, who could easily point out his absence).

The other band members were more than capable of doing some strong material without Brian. SIP just wasn't it. Just about any other artist with a modicum of humility would have spoken up about SIP being a humbling experience. Not Mike. He instead explains why TWMGTR hitting #3 was somehow an underperformance.

[HeyJude]

You think Summer of Love, with its "doing it with you would be so very cool" barf-tastic lyrics is a good song, and that it's just production that is its problem?

The problems with SIP definitely extend beyond the production (although that *is* a major hindrance as well). Most of the compositions and lyrics are vapid, soulless, and in some cases ("Summer of Love") embarrassing. The most interesting thing about "Summer of Love" is that it was yet *another* in the line of songs that cribbed the same motif used previously on "Child of Winter", "Mike Come Back to LA", and "Some of Your Love."

We all have our personal weird favorites that we know, objectively, are not that great.

Thankfully, some of us are able to make both subjective and objective observations about the band's music.

[SMiLE Brian]

Summer of love with the wrecking crew...

[filledeplage]

Okay, so I'll put it this way, Mike kept Brian (and Al) out of the touring Beach Boys in the fall of 2012.

For all the interviews that Mike will sit for in the next few months, would someone please ask him some questions about Summer in Paradise and why it was a complete failure.

urbanite - IIRC Brian was unavailable to help with that album because of that maniac Landy.  

I can't speak for urbanite, but I don't think questions as to the quality of SIP have much to do with whether Brian was participating or not.

When people say the album sucks, they're not saying it sucks solely or even much at all because Brian wasn't there. That certainly didn't help (especially with promotion and with critics, who could easily point out his absence).

The other band members were more than capable of doing some strong material without Brian. SIP just wasn't it. Just about any other artist with a modicum of humility would have spoken up about SIP being a humbling experience. Not Mike. He instead explains why TWMGTR hitting #3 was somehow an underperformance.

Hey Jude - I think that Brian's being "imprisoned" by Landy has everything to do with the direction SIP went.  There were some cool musicians (such as Parks on accordian) but it did not come together as well as it might have with Brian's direction.  For the time, it still was not bad because some stuff got airplay by other routes.  

Yes, they were well-able to strong material without Brian but, being a throw-back album - with retro stuff, going back to their genesis, Brian might have been able to approach the material differently and use less of the computerized stuff. (Even if at the time it was cutting edge. )

[SMiLE Brian]

Mike thought BW was no longer needed in the BBs after Kokomo. Then reality set in...

[HeyJude]

Hey Jude - I think that Brian's being "imprisoned" by Landy has everything to do with the direction SIP went.  

I disagree. Brian not being there didn't force Mike Love and Terry Melcher to hack out a bunch of sub-par songs. As I've already said, no Brian involvement certainly didn't help (the same can also be said for the reduced involvement of both Carl and Al as well), but it wasn't the downfall of that album.

People bought "Kokomo" without any Brian involvement; so they would have bought SIP too if enough people would have liked it.

Using Brian being held hostage by Landy as an excuse for SIP sucking is pretty lame, in my opinion. It also ignores the *complex* group politics at play both during and *after* Brian being extracted from Landy's control. Brian remained largely estranged from the band for several years after leaving Landy, and that was due to complex business, group, and personal issues and politics.

[Joel Goldenberg]

You all can also look forward to a few words on Mike's hair, or lack thereof. He explains that he chose hats over a hairpiece because the ones he chose were "stylish and fun" and the visors shielded his eyes from the bright stage lights.

And in terms of Brian's progressive songs, Mike wrote that he thought the music of Smile was "bizarre and beautiful," but that the lyrics were the main problem.

[filledeplage]

Hey Jude - I think that Brian's being "imprisoned" by Landy has everything to do with the direction SIP went.  

I disagree. Brian not being there didn't force Mike Love and Terry Melcher to hack out a bunch of sub-par songs. As I've already said, no Brian involvement certainly didn't help, but it wasn't the downfall of that album.

People bought "Kokomo" without any Brian involvement; so they would have bought SIP too if enough people would have liked it.

Using Brian being held hostage by Landy as an excuse for SIP sucking is pretty lame, in my opinion.

Hey Jude - if you think of the BB's as a unit, and I still do, regardless of where they are physically in the cosmos, and how they work together, it was a retro-feel album, maybe trying to tie the TV shows into some BB product.  Yes, Brian's absence as a result of Landy, did not help the band as a whole.  

SIP "live" on MIC is pretty universally regarded as awesome.  Kokomo had John Phillips (about 4 guys I think) working on that record.  I think they had to make some move, strategically.  And it was the first and only album to have no Brian work (wiki.) So, I consider that significant and apparently others do as well. It was their 30th year as the BB's and Brian was not there.  That speaks volumes.  I don't know how to work around that fact.  I don't think you can work around not having Brian for an album at the 30 year mark.  

"All of the surviving original band members except Brian Wilson (who was in the legal process of being removed from the care of Eugene Landy.)" (wiki)

That is a fact.  The ONLY BB album without any of Brian's work.  It sounds more processed, now, but did not impress me that way when I first bought it.  Maybe there was so much other music that was processed that you just get used to it.  But, now I think a second-look for some of the songs themselves, would not be a bad thing.  It is not the first time I felt that the wrong single was used.  I bet Brian would "re-imagine" SIP with a great, perhaps more accoustic approach.  

And,  I feel that Sunflower should have been Our Sweet Love with that as a the single release and think it would have been a big hit.  Nothing "dated" and a universal theme. Same for SIP;  I think Lahaina Aloha should have been the single.  My position.      

[The LEGENDARY OSD]

Okay, so I'll put it this way, Mike kept Brian (and Al) out of the touring Beach Boys in the fall of 2012.

For all the interviews that Mike will sit for in the next few months, would someone please ask him some questions about Summer in Paradise and why it was a complete failure.

urbanite - IIRC Brian was unavailable to help with that album because of that maniac Landy.  I think (an observation) is that Lahaina Aloha was the strongest song with Carl's extraordinary yearning vocals and should have been the single released.  I do think that taken-as-a-whole, that SIP shows that they all needed each other.  I think they need Brian's production skills alongside their vocals.  

From the Endless Harmony DVD, it appears that really Brian really regretted (because he was locked away by Landy) that he was not involved with that era of work because he was forcibly separated from his bandmates.  

The music is not bad; it is the presentation that didn't work well. At the time, it didn't seem that bad but now sounds a little dated.  But, I still actually like that album just because it was something new and demonstrates that they were still trying to stay-in-the-game.

Guess I look at it differently.  

At the time it didn't sound bad Yes, of course, just release any old slop they can come up with, slap the BB name to it all the while helping to annihilate  the legacy.  

[The LEGENDARY OSD]

Mike thought BW was no longer needed in the BBs after Kokomo. Then reality set in...

  Great point SB.

[filledeplage]

Okay, so I'll put it this way, Mike kept Brian (and Al) out of the touring Beach Boys in the fall of 2012.

For all the interviews that Mike will sit for in the next few months, would someone please ask him some questions about Summer in Paradise and why it was a complete failure.

urbanite - IIRC Brian was unavailable to help with that album because of that maniac Landy.  I think (an observation) is that Lahaina Aloha was the strongest song with Carl's extraordinary yearning vocals and should have been the single released.  I do think that taken-as-a-whole, that SIP shows that they all needed each other.  I think they need Brian's production skills alongside their vocals.  

From the Endless Harmony DVD, it appears that really Brian really regretted (because he was locked away by Landy) that he was not involved with that era of work because he was forcibly separated from his bandmates.  

The music is not bad; it is the presentation that didn't work well. At the time, it didn't seem that bad but now sounds a little dated.  But, I still actually like that album just because it was something new and demonstrates that they were still trying to stay-in-the-game.

Guess I look at it differently.  

At the time it didn't sound bad Yes, of course, just release any old slop they can come up with, slap the BB name to it all the while helping to annihilate  the legacy.  

OSD - are you saying that Brian's guidance would not have made a difference? Brian appeared to regret not being on Kokomo and Landy made sure he was on the Spanish version. 

[The LEGENDARY OSD]

Okay, so I'll put it this way, Mike kept Brian (and Al) out of the touring Beach Boys in the fall of 2012.

For all the interviews that Mike will sit for in the next few months, would someone please ask him some questions about Summer in Paradise and why it was a complete failure.

urbanite - IIRC Brian was unavailable to help with that album because of that maniac Landy.  I think (an observation) is that Lahaina Aloha was the strongest song with Carl's extraordinary yearning vocals and should have been the single released.  I do think that taken-as-a-whole, that SIP shows that they all needed each other.  I think they need Brian's production skills alongside their vocals.  

From the Endless Harmony DVD, it appears that really Brian really regretted (because he was locked away by Landy) that he was not involved with that era of work because he was forcibly separated from his bandmates.  

The music is not bad; it is the presentation that didn't work well. At the time, it didn't seem that bad but now sounds a little dated.  But, I still actually like that album just because it was something new and demonstrates that they were still trying to stay-in-the-game.

Guess I look at it differently.  

At the time it didn't sound bad Yes, of course, just release any old slop they can come up with, slap the BB name to it all the while helping to annihilate  the legacy.  

OSD - are you saying that Brian's guidance would not have made a difference? Brian appeared to regret not being on Kokomo and Landy made sure he was on the Spanish version. 

Slop in Paraguay was a myKe luHv ego project from the very beginning to it's dismal demise. True to form, he didn't wanr anyone fucking with his award winning *formula*.

[HeyJude]

Hey Jude - I think that Brian's being "imprisoned" by Landy has everything to do with the direction SIP went.  

I disagree. Brian not being there didn't force Mike Love and Terry Melcher to hack out a bunch of sub-par songs. As I've already said, no Brian involvement certainly didn't help, but it wasn't the downfall of that album.

People bought "Kokomo" without any Brian involvement; so they would have bought SIP too if enough people would have liked it.

Using Brian being held hostage by Landy as an excuse for SIP sucking is pretty lame, in my opinion.

Yes, Brian's absence as a result of Landy, did not help the band as a whole.  

You're shifting your position now. I already pointed out that Brian being absent certainly didn't help. But what you said in your previous post is:

Brian's being "imprisoned" by Landy has everything to do with the direction SIP went

*That* is, in my opinion, a gross exaggeration and oversimplification. "Didn't help" and "had everything to do" are two very different things.

SIP "live" on MIC is pretty universally regarded as awesome.

I wouldn't go near that far. The title track is one of the lesser problematic moments on the album, and the live arrangements tended to be better than either studio iteration. But that live version is far from "universally regarded as awesome." I don't recall a bunch of fans losing their s**t over the live take of SIP on the MIC set. The first thing I thought when I saw it on the tracklisting was that it was likely a political concession to get Mike to warm more to the set. I doubt Al or Brian were asking for that track to be on the set.

[HeyJude]

OSD - are you saying that Brian's guidance would not have made a difference? Brian appeared to regret not being on Kokomo and Landy made sure he was on the Spanish version. 

SIP was a Melcher/Love helmed project from the outset.

Brian adding some vocals (as he did on the Spanish version of "Kokomo") wouldn't have been anything approaching "guidance."

If they had junked the album and started over from scratch, things could have been different. But just adding Brian to SIP the way Carl and Al were added wouldn't have made a huge difference. It would have helped marketing as far as precluding critics from pointing out Brian's total absence. Maybe Brian would have come up with some cool vocal arrangements or something. But it wouldn't have made "Summer of Love" suck any less, or make "Island Fever" any less cheesy, etc.

[filledeplage]

OSD - are you saying that Brian's guidance would not have made a difference? Brian appeared to regret not being on Kokomo and Landy made sure he was on the Spanish version. 

SIP was a Melcher/Love helmed project from the outset.

Brian adding some vocals (as he did on the Spanish version of "Kokomo") wouldn't have been anything approaching "guidance."

If they had junked the album and started over from scratch, things could have been different. But just adding Brian to SIP the way Carl and Al were added wouldn't have made a huge difference. It would have helped marketing as far as precluding critics from pointing out Brian's total absence. Maybe Brian would have come up with some cool vocal arrangements or something. But it wouldn't have made "Summer of Love" suck any less, or make "Island Fever" any less cheesy, etc.

Hey Jude - Melcher (talented as he was) - was not a BB.  Even if he was around during Pet Sounds.  There was no substitute for Brian and his regret was clear on the Endless Harmony DVD.   

[CenturyDeprived]

Okay, so I'll put it this way, Mike kept Brian (and Al) out of the touring Beach Boys in the fall of 2012.

For all the interviews that Mike will sit for in the next few months, would someone please ask him some questions about Summer in Paradise and why it was a complete failure.

urbanite - IIRC Brian was unavailable to help with that album because of that maniac Landy.  I think (an observation) is that Lahaina Aloha was the strongest song with Carl's extraordinary yearning vocals and should have been the single released.  I do think that taken-as-a-whole, that SIP shows that they all needed each other.  I think they need Brian's production skills alongside their vocals.  

From the Endless Harmony DVD, it appears that really Brian really regretted (because he was locked away by Landy) that he was not involved with that era of work because he was forcibly separated from his bandmates.  

The music is not bad; it is the presentation that didn't work well. At the time, it didn't seem that bad but now sounds a little dated.  But, I still actually like that album just because it was something new and demonstrates that they were still trying to stay-in-the-game.

Guess I look at it differently.  

You think Summer of Love, with its "doing it with you would be so very cool" barf-tastic lyrics is a good song, and that it's just production that is its problem?

Still waiting for FDP to respond to my question...