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Author Topic: Western Studio 3, 1964?  (Read 6560 times)
Mr Bones
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« on: July 24, 2016, 01:05:04 AM »

Hi everyone. I was wondering if some of you could help me fill in the gaps of my knowledge regarding how the beach boys were recorded at western in the earlier part of their career. Mainly when they were tracking as a more or less self contained group around ’64. I love this period in terms of their production. I know some of you know quite a lot of the details here so hopefully I can learn a thing or two.

As far as I’ve been able to piece together from photos, the drums in studio 3 were usually set up close to the the near left hand corner of the tracking room as you look out from the booth. Al, I’m guessing, would usually be set up just opposite the drums facing Dennis, playing with a bassman amp set up next to him. Brian, I imagine, would often be playing piano near the back or middle of the room? Does anybody know if he was playing a grand or an upright usually? Lastly Carl would presumably be set up with an amp right next to Al or in the booth plugged right into the board. I don’t know how accurate any of this is so hopefully some people can chime in.

As I understand the band would then track live together all directly onto one track of the 3 track tape machine. Once a take was completed to satisfaction Al would often double his bass track along with Carl doing another take of guitar and sometimes Brian adding more piano or organ all onto a second track? Then it would seem that the first tape would be bounced down to the first track of a second tape and vocals would be doubled onto the 2 remaining open tracks? I’m sure sometimes more bouncing was done as needed.

I’m also interested in the microphones Chuck Britz was using. I’m guessing mainly Shure 545’s and E.V RE15’s and 666’s on guitars, bass and piano? Drums really interest me. I figure drums were mainly Sony 37’s or 38’s as an overhead and possibly a 666 on the bass drum? What fascinates me is that I’ve seen Hal Blaine around this time mic’ed with pairs of Sony’s or what look like Sennheiser MKH 405’s as overhead mic’s. In the days of early 1960’s mono drums I haven’t heard too many anecdotes of 2 mic’s employed overhead so it seems somewhat unique, however I’m not sure if this was done on these Beach Boys sessions or not.

Lastly I don’t think much compression was used at all but I believe I read Mark Linnet saying that early 176 Compressors would be set up on the three tape outputs adding very light compression as things went to tape? Things sound pretty flat so I doubt much extra EQ was employed on these sessions. Does anyone know if they had much access to things like Pultecs, Fairchilds etc in Western 3?

I’d love to hear as much technical detail about any of this as possible. I love the sound Chuck and the guys got on these records. I don’t know how scientific he was with placement etc but I remember hearing one outtake with the guys calling out that the bass drum mic isn’t pointed at the drum, and Chuck chiming in that he’s hearing everything just fine so “Don’t move it!” I’m sure bleed was a huge thing on these records… But please, those of you who know more, I’d love to hear about it. Sorry for the long rambling post.
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Mr Bones
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« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2016, 01:06:40 AM »

Sorry, I meant to say that the drums were usually set up close to the near "RIGHT" hand corner as you look out from the booth... As far as I can tell anyway...
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c-man
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« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2016, 07:40:43 AM »

The more I delve into this subject with my ongoing research, the more I discover that there is no one answer: some 1964 tracks were recorded with Brian on piano, Al on bass, Carl on rhythm guitar, and Dennis on drums, with Carl then overdubbing the lead guitar - pretty simple. On others, Al is playing both rhythm guitar and bass (by virtue of an overdub), or doubling the bass (again on an overdub), Brian sometimes played piano and bass (overdub again), the drums were doubled (overdub), etc. Vocally, by this point, they were often doing the first vocal track on the third track of a 3-track tape which already housed the basic track and an instrumental overdub on the other two tracks, then there was a dubdown to a 2nd-generation 3-track, during which the vocals were simultaneously doubled on the same track of the new tape, while the two instrumental tracks were kept discrete. This contrasts to other times, where the two instrumental tracks were combined to mono on the dubdown, and the two vocal tracks were discrete.

Short answer is - it varies!

As for the piano - David Marks told me it was always an upright while he was there - after he left, I think it was sometimes an upright and sometimes a grand.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2016, 09:00:30 AM by c-man » Logged
DonnyL
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« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2016, 10:07:21 AM »

I don't have a whole lot of info to add, but I did enjoy a couple emails with Bones Howe awhile back and he gave me some specific information that might offer some clues. Of course, Chuck likely did things differently ... but Bones had a standard set up that he didn't seem to deviate much from for things like the Mamas and Papas and 5th Dimension sessions.

He used 545s on "guitars" (assuming acoustic and electric), and I have seen photos of acoustics mic'd with 545s on Beach Boys sessions too. RCA 77DX on pianos (this might be a Bones-only trick since he also used these for vocals), "Sony" (assuming 37/38) on the bass amp, Sennheiser 405 on drum overheads (plural emphasized), Shure 545 on the kick drum (yes, I thought that was an odd choice too, shows what I know).

You do see the 666 in some photos, so it was certainly in use ... but the RE15 didn't come out until 1967, so that wasn't used on the classic-era sessions.

He also noted he did not use compression on anything except vocals. I think this is a part of the West Coast '60s sound that doesn't get mentioned very often.

... anyway, hope that offers a tiny glimpse of insight into the '60s studio scene, right from the horse's mouth. He also mentioned (being a drummer himself) that Hal Blaine was always pushing the tempo, playing slightly ahead of the beat. I never noticed or thought about that but now I hear it all the time on those recordings ... I think that's one of the ingredients that gives these tracks the "teenage" edge.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2016, 10:21:55 AM by DonnyL » Logged

guitarfool2002
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« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2016, 10:20:41 AM »

Bones used Shure 546's
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DonnyL
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« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2016, 10:27:33 AM »

Bones used Shure 546's

He said 545 specifically in the email, but he might use the model designation interchangeably. My understanding is that the 546 is very similar to the 545. The Beach Boys used them for vocals sometimes too.

One anecdote I heard somewhere was that Britz would sometimes plug a mic directly into a Fairchild compressor (bypassing the mike preamp) for vocals. Don't quote me on that one though.
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« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2016, 10:42:06 AM »

The 546 had the angled head design, easier to stick into tight spots on snares and the like. Every session I researched with Bones involved, along with the Western/Heider guys like Halverson have been specific in their quotes on the 546 and how often they used them. No big deal but they were different mics that shared characteristics.

I'm not sure on the Fairchild. Weren't they mostly using Putnam's own designed limiters and compressors at Western? Not saying they didn't have a Fairchild to patch in or other more esoteric RCA limiters and the like, but I remember a few cases where Bones said they were using some prototypes of what became the 1176 that had no fancy design or graphics, just a bare-bones housing and essential stuff. And of course the LA-2A. I got the impression if it was done at Putnam's studios, they encouraged using Putnam outboard gear that was being made in house.
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« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2016, 10:48:20 AM »

Let me add to that: The 546 does in fact have a different element than the 545. Unlike its successor the SM-57, it also had an imp. switch.

Watch Monterey Pop (and see/hear the work of Stephen Desper, Wally Heider, et al) and see the 546 with that angled stand/shock mount. Pretty cool design for mic'ing amps and snares, which is why they used them so much perhaps.
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DonnyL
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« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2016, 11:17:50 AM »

The 546 had the angled head design, easier to stick into tight spots on snares and the like. Every session I researched with Bones involved, along with the Western/Heider guys like Halverson have been specific in their quotes on the 546 and how often they used them. No big deal but they were different mics that shared characteristics.

I'm not sure on the Fairchild. Weren't they mostly using Putnam's own designed limiters and compressors at Western? Not saying they didn't have a Fairchild to patch in or other more esoteric RCA limiters and the like, but I remember a few cases where Bones said they were using some prototypes of what became the 1176 that had no fancy design or graphics, just a bare-bones housing and essential stuff. And of course the LA-2A. I got the impression if it was done at Putnam's studios, they encouraged using Putnam outboard gear that was being made in house.

The 545 was also offered with the "pistol" grip. The appearance of the base of the 546 is more rounded, whereas the 545 with the pistol base are more rectangular ... possibly the best way you could tell them apart in a photo. But I don't believe the 546 came in a non-pistol option, so these photos below would presumably be a 545 (since the cable was plugged directly into the back of the mic):





... I'm certain it's safe to say that both 546 and 545 models were used for Beach Boys and Bones Howe sessions.

Re: compressor: I think the generally accepted info is that the 176 was the pre-1176 compressor of choice. Don't think the LA-2A was around until a little later. Bones apparently had a prototype (solid state) 1176 pretty early on.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2016, 11:29:41 AM by DonnyL » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2016, 11:23:53 AM »

Let me add to that: The 546 does in fact have a different element than the 545. Unlike its successor the SM-57, it also had an imp. switch.

Watch Monterey Pop (and see/hear the work of Stephen Desper, Wally Heider, et al) and see the 546 with that angled stand/shock mount. Pretty cool design for mic'ing amps and snares, which is why they used them so much perhaps.

Pretty sure they used SM-56 models at Monterey Pop.
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« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2016, 11:30:19 AM »

Yeah, both the 176 and 175 were first, before the LA-2A and were in use in Putnam's studios (and are phenomenal pieces of equipment) from 61-onward or so, which means they would most likely have been employed on the sessions we're talking about. I still come back to saying there seemed to be a push for uniformity on what outboard gear was used on these sessions at Putnam's studios, because they were also in essence promoting the outboard gear to sell and if word got around that Unit X was used on Smash Hit Record X, more cash would flow into Putnam's businesses.

But there were prototypes Putnam was building and testing out in his studios, mentioned by Bones Howe regarding the bare-bones design compressors, and I'm guessing similar beta testing happened with the LA-2A and most of his other designs too before they hit the market. Like Abbey Road, some of this stuff was a one-off design or prototype build that came and went.

The 546 was the broadcast model of that mic, and was more expensive (and came with a shockmount built-in to the stand adapter design) and a little different if not higher quality sonically and overall to some ears.
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« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2016, 11:39:38 AM »

I think the 545 pistol-grip models had an on-off switch, which isn't what you'd see on a broadcast or studio version of a mic.

Going by sight I think the only way you'd tell the SM56 from the 546 could be the chrome versus the flat gray color. It's more or less the same housing if you look at them. In 1967 they could have bought new 56's and used 546's too, they were both current and readily in mic lockers all over. I'll have to look at that video of Fast Eddie Hoh playing Monterey with the M's & P's and see how they mic'ed his kit.
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« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2016, 12:04:48 PM »


... I'm certain it's safe to say that both 546 and 545 models were used for Beach Boys and Bones Howe sessions.

Re: compressor: I think the generally accepted info is that the 176 was the pre-1176 compressor of choice. Don't think the LA-2A was around until a little later. Bones apparently had a prototype (solid state) 1176 pretty early on.

Absolutely, they were both ubiquitous in the 60's and had a similar counterpart in the EV 666, but I think in the case of Bones he's said in several sources it was a 546, and Bill Halverson specified the 546 too. And Chuck Britz named the 545 in at least on interview/comment if I recall.

The LA-2A went to market in '64/'65 I believe.
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DonnyL
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« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2016, 12:13:03 PM »

I think the 545 pistol-grip models had an on-off switch, which isn't what you'd see on a broadcast or studio version of a mic.

Going by sight I think the only way you'd tell the SM56 from the 546 could be the chrome versus the flat gray color. It's more or less the same housing if you look at them. In 1967 they could have bought new 56's and used 546's too, they were both current and readily in mic lockers all over. I'll have to look at that video of Fast Eddie Hoh playing Monterey with the M's & P's and see how they mic'ed his kit.

My understanding is the 545 and 546 are silver w/ black band, whereas the SM57 and SM56 are all black ... SM56 with the pistol grip (and those huge pop filters at Monterey).
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« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2016, 12:38:14 PM »

That's right, the 545 and 546 are silver and the 56/57 are dark gray or black. More dark gray, lol.

Interesting to go through not just Shure but the other companies like EV and go through the differences in their models and features. What i like is seeing how the advent of television then later color television affected the colors of these mic housings, like which colors were made so they wouldn't reflect lights in a TV studio versus studio or radio mics where it didn't matter. I think the 666 has two or three color options, mine is flat olive drab. Others are light gray, others were black. Meanwhile most of the other EV line was silver/chrome.

If you find any of those 1960's pics of Johnny Carson on his show that I've posted here, the RCA 77 on his desk is painted with a light blue/gray color, probably to avoid that light reflection on camera.
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« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2016, 12:45:00 PM »

Unrelated but speaking of EV mics and all, weren't there some old sci-fi TV shows and movies of the lower budget variety that used the EV 644 mic as a ray gun or alien weapon type of prop because it looked for all the world like a ray gun?  LOL

I'm trying to think if I ever saw any photos or still of any of these sci-fi shows where this was the case...can't think of any offhand.

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« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2016, 02:25:09 PM »

That's right, the 545 and 546 are silver and the 56/57 are dark gray or black. More dark gray, lol.

Interesting to go through not just Shure but the other companies like EV and go through the differences in their models and features. What i like is seeing how the advent of television then later color television affected the colors of these mic housings, like which colors were made so they wouldn't reflect lights in a TV studio versus studio or radio mics where it didn't matter. I think the 666 has two or three color options, mine is flat olive drab. Others are light gray, others were black. Meanwhile most of the other EV line was silver/chrome.

If you find any of those 1960's pics of Johnny Carson on his show that I've posted here, the RCA 77 on his desk is painted with a light blue/gray color, probably to avoid that light reflection on camera.

Ah yeh that's true. I think some of them even had the term "TV" in the color name or something!
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Stephen W. Desper
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« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2016, 02:26:54 PM »

Hi everyone. I was wondering if some of you could help me fill in the gaps of my knowledge regarding how the beach boys were recorded at western in the earlier part of their career. I’m also interested in the microphones Chuck Britz was using.
COMMENT to Mr Bones"
I think more ribbons were in use than discussed here.
Suggest you listen to the button "God Only Knows" at my webpage (link below). If you haven't checked it out yet, it will be a fun listen for you.
~swd
http://swdstudyvideos.com
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« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2016, 02:32:58 PM »

Hi everyone. I was wondering if some of you could help me fill in the gaps of my knowledge regarding how the beach boys were recorded at western in the earlier part of their career. I’m also interested in the microphones Chuck Britz was using.
COMMENT to Mr Bones"
I think more ribbons were in use than discussed here.
Suggest you listen to the button "God Only Knows" at my webpage (link below). If you haven't checked it out yet, it will be a fun listen for you.
~swd
http://swdstudyvideos.com

That's a welcome point, Mr. Desper ... I seem to recall reading somewhere that some of the Electro-Voice dynamics were designed to attempt to mimic the sound of ribbons, and it seems that some studios bought into the hype and began replacing ribbons gradually, later into the '60s.
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« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2016, 02:56:01 PM »


COMMENT:  If you study the photos at the links below, note the use of Neumann U47's and RCA ribbons. These were (and in some cases still are) the workhorses of the industry.

If you click on any photo that interests you, a whole series of related photos will appear. Festinating to look at.
~swd

60's >>> https://www.google.com/search?q=early+60's+recording+sessions&biw=1067&bih=509&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjauYjwiI3OAhXELSYKHU7QA8kQ_AUIBigB&dpr=1.5

70' >>> https://www.google.com/search?q=early+60's+recording+sessions&biw=1067&bih=509&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjauYjwiI3OAhXELSYKHU7QA8kQ_AUIBigB&dpr=1.5#tbm=isch&q=early+70%27s+recording+sessions&imgrc=_


« Last Edit: July 24, 2016, 07:15:53 PM by Stephen W. Desper » Logged
guitarfool2002
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« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2016, 03:03:16 PM »

We got sidetracked on those Shure dynamics! By far I'd also say the bulk of the classic vocal tracks that I think the original poster had in mind were done with those mics seen in the familiar studio shots: RCA 44 and 77 ribbons, AKG C12, whatever Neumann condensers they chose, 47 and whatnot. And then the various photos of even the Sony C37 on drum overheads, AKG small diaphragm condensers, EV 666 on guitar cabs, all the classic setups.

What is amazing is how the whole industry did a 180 flip in the past 15-20 years and went back to the mics from the 50's and 60's. Pick up a recording mag and it's full of ads from small builders recreating the C12, U47, the RCA ribbons...even the "look" is in vogue again. I remember hearing that Allen Sides (and others) would literally find classic outboard gear in the outgoing trash bins, and would pick up classic mics for pennies on the dollar. Now they are worth a fortune.

What blows my mind too...the prices. Those mics the Beatles used on the first Sullivan show, AKG C60 (as far as research has found) with those odd windscreens that looked like a tennis ball. You can't find those screens. I saw one, I think the AKG model number was W60, was sold for 400 bucks. For a windscreen.

What made the classic sounds was thankfully found to still be capable of making the classic sounds, after whatever mind-numbing decisions were made in the 70's and 80's to scrap all that stuff in favor of the newest version of building a better mousetrap.

Now we have a disposable culture in full effect where your last year's iPhone is deemed no good if Apple comes out with a new one, and they say you need a new one because it's new. Sad in a lot of ways.

DAT. Enough said.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2016, 04:12:14 PM by guitarfool2002 » Logged

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« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2016, 03:06:51 PM »

Oh, and on the related topic of the Shure 546/SM56 with that angled housing...for probably a decade one company has been advertising their mod for a Shure 57 where they mod the 57 guts into that angled head, like Shure did 50+ years ago. They say it's good for drum head mic'ing, guitar cabs, etc.

Shure knew that 50 years ago!
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« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2016, 03:07:20 PM »

Time for summer in paradise unplugged? Grin
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« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2016, 03:14:17 PM »

But seriously, what was the progression of Mics in the BBs recording sessions from the 1960s to 1990s? Did BW have trouble adjusting to 1970s recording tech in the mid 1970s?
Time for summer in paradise unplugged? Grin
« Last Edit: July 24, 2016, 03:16:27 PM by SMiLE Brian » Logged

And production aside, I’d so much rather hear a 14 year old David Marks shred some guitar on Chug-a-lug than hear a 51 year old Mike Love sing about bangin some chick in a swimming pool.-rab2591
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« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2016, 03:19:29 PM »

But seriously, what was the progression of Mics in the BBs recording sessions from the 1960s to 1990s? Did BW have trouble adjusting to 1970s recording tech in the mid 1970s?
Time for summer in paradise unplugged? Grin

That's like asking what the progression of Mike Love's hats are.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2016, 03:21:02 PM by DonnyL » Logged

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