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Author Topic: The keyboard sounds on '93 boxed set tour / Carl's taste in music  (Read 8744 times)
Jim V.
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« on: July 03, 2016, 10:47:17 PM »

So, while listening to the officially released stuff from the 1993 live dates I have been struck by two things. First, what great performances. Secondly and more importantly, they probably used the cheesiest, most '80s adult contemporary preset sounds on rarely performed material like "Wonderful" (with the cheeseball piano), "Vegetables" (with what seemed to be some kinda pipe organ sound), "Caroline No" (with what I'm hearing to be a harpsichord?) and lastly "You Still Believe In Me" (with the classic super fake sounding Bruce Johnston signature 1985 electric piano sound).

Good grief! Who made the choices to use these sounds? Now it's just me, but my gut tells me Carl and my reasoning lays in the fact that as great as his songs on Beckley-Lamm-Wilson are, they are firmly rooted in 1987 adult contemporary sound, or at best the 1995 Celine Dion sound. Now I can make sense of this. Carl seemed to like rhythm and blues on his more rockin' side and then on the other side he liked his pretty stuff (just like most all of us). And that pretty side came out through his writing on stuff like "Feel Flows" and whatnot. However by the later '70s it turned into super smooth yacht rock like "Full Sail" and "Goin' South" which then mutated in the '80s into power ballads like "Where I Belong" (which I personally love) while finally taking a turn into smooth adult contemporary of Michael Bolton, Celine Dion and Sophie B. Hawkins with his material from the Like A Brother album.

And to me it makes sense why Carl participated on something as heinous as Summer in Paradise without what seems to be much a complaint, while apparently having problems with the more timeless sounding "Soul Searchin'", "You're Still A Mystery" and "Dancing the Night Away." It seems to me that the super synthetic, super smooth, vaguely inspirational sound was much more in his wheelhouse than something which had a more "natural" sound.

Anyways, what I think would've been interesting is how different Beach Boys history may have been if Carl had been healthy enough to be around for the release of Brian's Imagination album and whatnot. Because I think that unlike the Paley material, a lot of this stuff might have appealed to Carl, and maybe we would've gotten a somewhat behind the times sounding Beach Boys album in like 2000 or 2001. Perhaps something like That's Why God Made The Radio* but without the years of Brian working with his band and clawing his "sound" back from Joe's work on Imagination. So perhaps a lot more "Think About The Days" and "Spring Vacation" type things (although I love those two songs) and a lot less "Isn't It Time" or "From There To Back Again" or "Summer's Gone" type things. So in essence, Imagination Part II but with The Beach Boys, which I'm not sure would have been a great thing.


*I personally think That's Why God Made The Radio is a really great album and I am still bummed that we haven't gotten any more from those sessions since 2012. I thought that it (and No Pier Pressure) have done a great job of combining the more "natural" sound of Brian and his band with the frankly awesome vocal sound Joe gets out of Brian. You all may think I'm wrong, but I thought that Brian consistently sounds the best he has since at least 1975 on TWGMTR and NPP. I know many of you are in love with TLOS (and I like a bit of it too), but vocally Brian sounds soooooooo much better on TWGMTR and NPP that it makes the overall material sound better.
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Lonely Summer
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« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2016, 11:18:27 PM »

It does seem that Carl went for that synth heavy sound in later years. I often thought the 1985 album would've sounded better if Jeff Baxter had produced it the way he had Carl's Youngblood. If I have any complaint about BB85 or LAB, it's the production. Of course it's equally possible that if Carl were alive today, his taste may have changed again.
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« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2016, 08:48:32 AM »

Late 60s, Carl mastered Brian's production and arranging techniques. Early 70s, Carl seemed really tuned in to the best of what was happening musically at that time, and was able to extend the band's sound into fresh, exciting new directions.

Then came the long silence, and when he re-emerged in 1979, he had seemingly lost touch, lost his ear, his good taste. There was no drop-off in the quality of his songwriting ( he was never prolific), but his 80s/90s arrangements seemed to default to Adult Contemporary of the cheesiest, blandest sort.

I can see how this happened in the 80s -- Carl going in for the smooth, synthetic sound that was fashionable in the pop mainstream. But that style had become dated by the late 80s, early 90s, and for some reason, Carl never caught up to what was happening.
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« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2016, 09:04:26 AM »

There's a huge drop-off in the quality of his songwriting. You can't seriously compare Full Sail and Goin' South with Feel Flows and Long Promised Road. Angel Come Home, I really like, however.
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« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2016, 10:31:13 AM »

Had he lived, I can picture Carl attending a Brian solo concert and almost cringing at their live arrangements.
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« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2016, 10:31:48 AM »

There's a huge drop-off in the quality of his songwriting. You can't seriously compare Full Sail and Goin' South with Feel Flows and Long Promised Road. Angel Come Home, I really like, however.

Helps that ACH was written  (and partially recorded...) in 1975!
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« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2016, 11:01:32 AM »

There's a huge drop-off in the quality of his songwriting. You can't seriously compare Full Sail and Goin' South with Feel Flows and Long Promised Road. Angel Come Home, I really like, however.
I love Full Sail. I could listen to that endlessly. Living With a Heartache, Heaven, What You Gonna Do About Me, Bright Lights, Seems So Long Ago, I love those songs.
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« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2016, 11:38:56 AM »

I love Carl's work on L.A. Light. It's not as original/adventurous as his songs on Surf's Up and Holland but it's easy to tell this was very heartfelt stuff that probably had a lot to do with getting over a pretty dark period in his life shortly before.
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« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2016, 11:54:27 AM »

I get the feeling that he was influenced by Chicago when they started using synths with Peter Cetera in the early 80's..my favorite solo song from him is "Of the times" and of course that one just happens to have that Cetera/Chicago synth sound going for it,,,
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« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2016, 12:10:54 AM »

I get the feeling that he was influenced by Chicago when they started using synths with Peter Cetera in the early 80's..my favorite solo song from him is "Of the times" and of course that one just happens to have that Cetera/Chicago synth sound going for it,,,
I don't hear a lot of synths on "Of the Times", more guitar oriented. The BBFUN prez compared it back then to something from the Doobies "What Were Once Vices" era.
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« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2016, 06:57:18 AM »

Regarding the keyboard sound on the early 90s BB shows, at lease *some* of that also must be down to the technology of the time.

The different patches/pre-sets/samples, etc. that Darian, for instance, uses at shows in 2016 (which, ironically, Billy Hinsche uses in Brian's band presently, filling in for Darian) were surely not available in 1993 or 1991, etc.

Carl's preference for that late 80s tinkly "You're the Inspiration" style keyboard sound could well have also been a factor.
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« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2016, 07:03:06 AM »

Had he lived, I can picture Carl attending a Brian solo concert and almost cringing at their live arrangements.

This is an interesting point. If you transported 90s Carl into later Brian shows, you could well be right.

While Carl on occasion seemed to work "original arrangement" bits back into the show (the main example being the sort of staccato bit on "God Only Knows" that was added back during the mid 90s or so), he did have a "live arrangement" mindset and probably wouldn't have wanted a lot of the sometimes slower, plodding "play it like the record" arrangements for things like "California Girls."

But the whole deal of playing original arrangements, and doing heavy "deep cuts" setlists, was a progression that happened largely after Carl's death. Would he have eventually embraced (or, more cynically, capitalized on) the hardcore nerdie/indie type fans when the opportunity arose in the 2000s, as even Mike did by the mid-late 2000s?

Carl's musical tastes in his later years are often overlooked, and there isn't a ton of info on the subject, especially considering how little he wrote himself and released. But hearing the AC sound of "Beckley/Lamm/Wilson", and then factoring in his apparent mixed if not negative feelings about the Andy Paley material, it makes one wonder how much he would have embraced the idea of doing a full "Smile" show, and playing "California Girls" about half the speed that the touring band was in the 90s, etc.
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« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2016, 08:59:38 AM »

Had he lived, I can picture Carl attending a Brian solo concert and almost cringing at their live arrangements.

This is an interesting point. If you transported 90s Carl into later Brian shows, you could well be right.

While Carl on occasion seemed to work "original arrangement" bits back into the show (the main example being the sort of staccato bit on "God Only Knows" that was added back during the mid 90s or so), he did have a "live arrangement" mindset and probably wouldn't have wanted a lot of the sometimes slower, plodding "play it like the record" arrangements for things like "California Girls."


I don't know. He favored an extremely slow Fun Fun Fun, and dragged many other fast songs too.
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« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2016, 09:03:18 AM »

Had he lived, I can picture Carl attending a Brian solo concert and almost cringing at their live arrangements.

This is an interesting point. If you transported 90s Carl into later Brian shows, you could well be right.

While Carl on occasion seemed to work "original arrangement" bits back into the show (the main example being the sort of staccato bit on "God Only Knows" that was added back during the mid 90s or so), he did have a "live arrangement" mindset and probably wouldn't have wanted a lot of the sometimes slower, plodding "play it like the record" arrangements for things like "California Girls."


I don't know. He favored an extremely slow Fun Fun Fun, and dragged many other fast songs too.

It's funny, some of the old songs did indeed really plod in those 90s shows. "Catch a Wave" is another example. Compare a mid-90s version of "Catch a Wave" to, say, the 1980 Washington DC version.

But I think "California Girls" in particular was often done at a faster clip because it was a show opener. There were times in the 80s and 90s where the intro to "CG" seems comically rushed as if they found it tedious to even do it; I occasionally thought "Geez guys, just skip it if you're going to rush through it *that* much!" At least at something like Knebworth in 1980 (and the 70s performances usually) they found a happy medium between the fast and slow.
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« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2016, 12:14:51 PM »

Had he lived, I can picture Carl attending a Brian solo concert and almost cringing at their live arrangements.

This is an interesting point. If you transported 90s Carl into later Brian shows, you could well be right.

While Carl on occasion seemed to work "original arrangement" bits back into the show (the main example being the sort of staccato bit on "God Only Knows" that was added back during the mid 90s or so), he did have a "live arrangement" mindset and probably wouldn't have wanted a lot of the sometimes slower, plodding "play it like the record" arrangements for things like "California Girls."

But the whole deal of playing original arrangements, and doing heavy "deep cuts" setlists, was a progression that happened largely after Carl's death. Would he have eventually embraced (or, more cynically, capitalized on) the hardcore nerdie/indie type fans when the opportunity arose in the 2000s, as even Mike did by the mid-late 2000s?

Carl's musical tastes in his later years are often overlooked, and there isn't a ton of info on the subject, especially considering how little he wrote himself and released. But hearing the AC sound of "Beckley/Lamm/Wilson", and then factoring in his apparent mixed if not negative feelings about the Andy Paley material, it makes one wonder how much he would have embraced the idea of doing a full "Smile" show, and playing "California Girls" about half the speed that the touring band was in the 90s, etc.

    I disagree about the lack of technology of the time period. Bands like Jellyfish had very good live keyboard sounds in 1993.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymPQ_LtRpTY
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« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2016, 12:53:09 PM »

Someone could correct me on this, but I distinctly remember about '92 or '93 there was a big deal made about the EMU Vintage Pro module (which I actually bought later and still own) which was the first bit of new technology that actually went out to recreate the old sounds.  The whole neo-vintage thing that is now pretty much standard with every keyboard (especially Nord) took quite a while to seep into the marketplace.  Jellyfish would definitely be the kind of band that would be ahead of the curve on this (in fact I believe I first heard about the Vintage Pro through somebody in Roger Manning's rough LA social circle).

So I think it's fair to say that in 1993 there would not have been mass-marketed vintage sounds, and the keyboardists in the BBs band probably made do with the prevailing D-50s and what not.  A few years later that began to change.
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« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2016, 02:07:53 PM »

Someone could correct me on this, but I distinctly remember about '92 or '93 there was a big deal made about the EMU Vintage Pro module (which I actually bought later and still own) which was the first bit of new technology that actually went out to recreate the old sounds.  The whole neo-vintage thing that is now pretty much standard with every keyboard (especially Nord) took quite a while to seep into the marketplace.  Jellyfish would definitely be the kind of band that would be ahead of the curve on this (in fact I believe I first heard about the Vintage Pro through somebody in Roger Manning's rough LA social circle).

So I think it's fair to say that in 1993 there would not have been mass-marketed vintage sounds, and the keyboardists in the BBs band probably made do with the prevailing D-50s and what not.  A few years later that began to change.

Makes sense.
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« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2016, 04:26:46 PM »

It was down to the technology of the time. Listen to God Only Knows. As the tech progressed, it started to sound more and more like a french horn at the beginning and end.  For my money, the best sounding live version of GOK done by the Beach Boys was on the Farm Aid CD released back in the late 90's. It has a BB performance from 1996. Carl sounds strong and the instrumentation sounds great. Hunt it down if you can find it.

Also, if Carl were still alive, I really think that he would be splitting his time between touring with the Beach Boys and touring with Brian. I really think that the cancer issue (had he lived) would really have brought Carl and Brian closer. And holy crap, can you image a mid-2000's LP by the Wilson Brothers? It would be fantastic. That is based on what TWGMTR sounded like. With Carl's guidance, a solo LP would have been killer.

I told Darian after a concert in 2013 that he killed on Darlin'. He thanked me and I responded with saying how cool it would have been if Carl could have made the 2012 reunion. He just put his hand over his heart and lowered his head. Darian would have been in heaven, as would Nick and PG. They live for those guys!

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« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2016, 04:31:12 PM »

It was down to the technology of the time. Listen to God Only Knows. As the tech progressed, it started to sound more and more like a french horn at the beginning and end.  For my money, the best sounding live version of GOK done by the Beach Boys was on the Farm Aid CD released back in the late 90's. It has a BB performance from 1996. Carl sounds strong and the instrumentation sounds great. Hunt it down if you can find it.

Also, if Carl were still alive, I really think that he would be splitting his time between touring with the Beach Boys and touring with Brian. I really think that the cancer issue (had he lived) would really have brought Carl and Brian closer. And holy crap, can you image a mid-2000's LP by the Wilson Brothers? It would be fantastic. That is based on what TWGMTR sounded like. With Carl's guidance, a solo LP would have been killer.

I told Darian after a concert in 2013 that he killed on Darlin'. He thanked me and I responded with saying how cool it would have been if Carl could have made the 2012 reunion. He just put his hand over his heart and lowered his head. Darian would have been in heaven, as would Nick and PG. They live for those guys!


If Carl were alive today, the BB's would still be together - at least Mike, Al and Bruce (and maybe David). Brian would sit in when it pleased him.
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« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2016, 04:45:19 PM »

It was down to the technology of the time. Listen to God Only Knows. As the tech progressed, it started to sound more and more like a french horn at the beginning and end.  For my money, the best sounding live version of GOK done by the Beach Boys was on the Farm Aid CD released back in the late 90's. It has a BB performance from 1996. Carl sounds strong and the instrumentation sounds great. Hunt it down if you can find it.

Also, if Carl were still alive, I really think that he would be splitting his time between touring with the Beach Boys and touring with Brian. I really think that the cancer issue (had he lived) would really have brought Carl and Brian closer. And holy crap, can you image a mid-2000's LP by the Wilson Brothers? It would be fantastic. That is based on what TWGMTR sounded like. With Carl's guidance, a solo LP would have been killer.

I told Darian after a concert in 2013 that he killed on Darlin'. He thanked me and I responded with saying how cool it would have been if Carl could have made the 2012 reunion. He just put his hand over his heart and lowered his head. Darian would have been in heaven, as would Nick and PG. They live for those guys!


If Carl were alive today, the BB's would still be together - at least Mike, Al and Bruce (and maybe David). Brian would sit in when it pleased him.

I agree. 
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« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2016, 07:19:16 AM »

It was down to the technology of the time. Listen to God Only Knows. As the tech progressed, it started to sound more and more like a french horn at the beginning and end.  For my money, the best sounding live version of GOK done by the Beach Boys was on the Farm Aid CD released back in the late 90's. It has a BB performance from 1996. Carl sounds strong and the instrumentation sounds great. Hunt it down if you can find it.

Also, if Carl were still alive, I really think that he would be splitting his time between touring with the Beach Boys and touring with Brian. I really think that the cancer issue (had he lived) would really have brought Carl and Brian closer. And holy crap, can you image a mid-2000's LP by the Wilson Brothers? It would be fantastic. That is based on what TWGMTR sounded like. With Carl's guidance, a solo LP would have been killer.

I told Darian after a concert in 2013 that he killed on Darlin'. He thanked me and I responded with saying how cool it would have been if Carl could have made the 2012 reunion. He just put his hand over his heart and lowered his head. Darian would have been in heaven, as would Nick and PG. They live for those guys!


If Carl were alive today, the BB's would still be together - at least Mike, Al and Bruce (and maybe David). Brian would sit in when it pleased him.

From what I've heard of the machinations of the band in the 1997 timeframe, I'm not so sure this would have been the case.

Based on the Marks/Stebbins book, it sounds like Al was being edged out regardless of anyone else's membership. That book contends that David Marks was recruited in 1997 as an eventual replacement for *Al*, not Carl.

Had Carl not become sick, I think what we would have seen at some point in the 1998-1999 timeframe was Al being edged out first and foremost. Carl was apparently not backing Al by 1996/97 in Al's beefs with the way the touring was being operated. So at that point Al was the odd man out.

Carl's illness and death was not what caused the rift between Mike and Al from everything I've read and learned. Carl's late 1997 departure (assumed/hoped temporary at the time) from the band may have, for a very short time, prolonged Al's tenure in the touring band. Then, I'd say, Carl's death probably hastened the whole restructuring and defacto s**tcanning of Al.

I think in a hypothetical where Carl was still alive, the membership status of both Al and Carl is very questionable. I think Carl appeared, even prior to his illness, pretty resigned to letting Mike run the thing. He also wasn't backing Al in Al's beef with how Mike wanted things. I'd like to think Carl, despite not backing Al, may have still been able to be a peacekeeper and keep everyone together, but I'm not sure and we'll obviously never know. I don't think the sort of wishful thinking that "Carl would have left the Beach Boys" in the 2000s is as likely as people think, but it's certainly possible he would have exited at some point and essentially kept his corporate role and revenue the same way Brian was doing. As for Al, perhaps Al would have returned at some later date in the 2000s.

Even if Carl and Al had departed at some point, a reunion probably would have happened in some form sooner or later as well.

As for Dave, his departure from the touring band in July of 1999 by all accounts I've read had pretty much zero to do with anybody else's membership in the band. Had Al and/or Carl been in the band at that time, Dave presumably still would have done things the same.
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« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2016, 08:59:46 AM »

My sense of the affairs is that Carl was the man keeping Al in the band. I think he really didn't wanted them to fragment the way they did once he was gone.


[Edited for clarity and to correct grammar.]
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« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2016, 09:44:56 AM »

My sense of the affairs is that Carl was the man keeping Al in the band. I think he really didn't wanted them to fragment the way they did once he was gone.


[Edited for clarity and to correct grammar.]

While I think Carl apparently not backing Al (from Al's perspective) was hastening the estrangement of Al from Mike and to some degree Carl, I do think that even while disagreeing with Al, Carl would have had by far the best chance of trying to keep Al in the band and keep the band from fragmenting.

But there was apparently a lot of Al/Mike stuff brewing for a number of years; so while Carl's death may have been a factor in the timing and abrupt nature of Al's exit, I think the perception that the general public may have had that Carl's death was the sole or major factor in the group splintering may be incorrect, or at least incomplete.

David Marks even commented in the Marks/Stebbins book, and I'm obviously loosely paraphrasing, that while he felt bad that his entrance into the band was spelling nothing but extra doom for Al, he also felt that Al's eventual fate was going to happen regardless of his (Dave's) entrance into the band. In that Marks/Stebbins book, Al reacted to the realization that Dave was a full-time member by saying something like "Well that's it then, it's all over." This was before Carl's death.
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« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2016, 10:22:30 AM »

"Carl's big chance" came and went twice--first in the mid 70s when he might have threaded the needle on a band that had a great live lineup and needed to have a hit without Brian Wilson's name in the songwriter slot, and again in the 80s, when he came close to leading the band back into contemporary prominence without the knee-jerk nostalgia that had swamped them for more than a decade and would be placed around their feet in cement once "Kokomo" tied them to the old image with a soft-porn "overlay" ("tropical contact high"...I mean, where is Shannon Tweed when you really need her??).

Carl's taste in music was probably more wide-ranging than anyone in the band, but after the Reiley years it never made much of an impact on the band's musical direction. That pushed him into the short-lived solo career and one last attempt to take the creative reins once he returned. That effort stalled with BB85, and "Kokomo" was a mini-repeat of "Endless Summer," removing just about all remaining leeway for alternatives, which were only tentatively explored at the time of the GV box set. I think Carl may have simply been tired of trying to be involved in new sessions with Brian, because the negative dynamics had begun to outweigh everything and he didn't see it having a chance to go anywhere. While I like "Soul Searching," I also see it as something that had only a marginal shot at being a way back into prominence chart-wise for the BBs and I can see where Carl was coming from, even though many accounts suggest that he rather uncharacteristically threw a fit about it, which apparently created some lingering strain with Brian which didn't quite get healed in the midst of Carl's illness/passing.

David Hepworth's new book about 1971 and the music that passed through that year makes the case that SURF'S UP was actually the beginning of the BB's nostalgia. I think that's overstated, but there's some truth in it. (And I think many of you will find it to be a very interesting read, even the youngsters who weren't even born in 19711)  I think Carl tried to buck that trend in his output in the time frame, but it was swamped by circumstances beyond his (or, for that matter, anyone's...) control.
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« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2016, 04:39:52 PM »

It has always puzzled me that Carl would go along with S&S but not the BW/DW stuff. I guess it's true what I used to hear as a kid - people's taste in music mellows as they get older. Either that, or they just like the styles they grew up with, while the world around them gets wilder and wilder and wilder. For example, take what was considered wild rock and roll in the 50's - Little Richard, Jerry Lee Lewis, Gene Vincent, Eddie Cochran, bad boys rockers. That stuff is tame compared to what came 10 years later with Jimi Hendrix, Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, Pink Floyd, etc. And that stuff seems tame compared to stuff that came out in the 90's. I mean, Little Richard may have wore makeup onstage, but he never actually dressed up as a woman as the man born David Jones would do in the 70's.
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