The keyboard sounds on '93 boxed set tour / Carl's taste in music

[tpesky]

It's so hard to predict what might have happened had Carl recovered. While he may have not been backing Al completely, would he have gone so far as to allow Al to be forced out? I think Carl had stopped making big decisions band related even before his illness. Although apparently he finally did vote with Al to fire the cheerleaders. He has been on record knowing that eventually Mike would be the last one touring so who knows how long we would have continued as a full time touring member even? Not having my copy of Marks/ Stebbins handy, I can't recall if it says in there who actually made the call to David Marks? Did Mike and Carl actually discuss it deeply, or was it a case as I said above of Carl removing himself from decisions? The state the BB are in today is in large part due to the events surrounding the Al/Mike rift. The real origins of separation between them might even go back to as early as 1980. Al is on record in the Knebworth interviews as hating that they were becoming a traveling jukebox.

[Pretty Funky]

Not having my copy of Marks/ Stebbins handy, I can't recall if it says in there who actually made the call to David Marks? Did Mike and Carl actually discuss it deeply, or was it a case as I said above of Carl removing himself from decisions?  

Pg 217 on the 1997 period.

'...but the process Mike initiated of welcoming David to participate in occasional Beach Boys concerts and media appearances had already begun years before.'

Pg 219

'Annie (Carls ex) asked Carl if he had seen the morning paper, which he hadn't. She showed him the piece on Davids return. 'I could tell he had absolutely no idea this was happening' said Annie. Did Mike tell you about this?' 'No' said Carl. ' But I'm really happy for David.'

[Jim V.]

"Carl's big chance" came and went twice--first in the mid 70s when he might have threaded the needle on a band that had a great live lineup and needed to have a hit without Brian Wilson's name in the songwriter slot, and again in the 80s, when he came close to leading the band back into contemporary prominence without the knee-jerk nostalgia that had swamped them for more than a decade and would be placed around their feet in cement once "Kokomo" tied them to the old image with a soft-porn "overlay" ("tropical contact high"...I mean, where is Shannon Tweed when you really need her??).

Carl's taste in music was probably more wide-ranging than anyone in the band, but after the Reiley years it never made much of an impact on the band's musical direction. That pushed him into the short-lived solo career and one last attempt to take the creative reins once he returned. That effort stalled with BB85, and "Kokomo" was a mini-repeat of "Endless Summer," removing just about all remaining leeway for alternatives, which were only tentatively explored at the time of the GV box set. I think Carl may have simply been tired of trying to be involved in new sessions with Brian, because the negative dynamics had begun to outweigh everything and he didn't see it having a chance to go anywhere. While I like "Soul Searching," I also see it as something that had only a marginal shot at being a way back into prominence chart-wise for the BBs and I can see where Carl was coming from, even though many accounts suggest that he rather uncharacteristically threw a fit about it, which apparently created some lingering strain with Brian which didn't quite get healed in the midst of Carl's illness/passing.

David Hepworth's new book about 1971 and the music that passed through that year makes the case that SURF'S UP was actually the beginning of the BB's nostalgia. I think that's overstated, but there's some truth in it. (And I think many of you will find it to be a very interesting read, even the youngsters who weren't even born in 19711)  I think Carl tried to buck that trend in his output in the time frame, but it was swamped by circumstances beyond his (or, for that matter, anyone's...) control.

Great post Don.

Anyways, could you expound a little bit more on how exactly they say said The Beach Boys were already "going nostalgic" in 1971? Because of what? Using a song that was started a few years earlier? Or using an old Coasters song? "Disney Girls"? The last two I can see in a way, but at the same time neither seemed to be doing "Beach Boys" nostalgia as much as '50s nostalgia.

[Lonely Summer]

It's so hard to predict what might have happened had Carl recovered. While he may have not been backing Al completely, would he have gone so far as to allow Al to be forced out? I think Carl had stopped making big decisions band related even before his illness. Although apparently he finally did vote with Al to fire the cheerleaders. He has been on record knowing that eventually Mike would be the last one touring so who knows how long we would have continued as a full time touring member even? Not having my copy of Marks/ Stebbins handy, I can't recall if it says in there who actually made the call to David Marks? Did Mike and Carl actually discuss it deeply, or was it a case as I said above of Carl removing himself from decisions? The state the BB are in today is in large part due to the events surrounding the Al/Mike rift. The real origins of separation between them might even go back to as early as 1980. Al is on record in the Knebworth interviews as hating that they were becoming a traveling jukebox.

Well, time can change one's perspective. I assume Al has no problem with being part of Brian's traveling jukebox shows today.

[tpesky]

While Brian certainly does a lot of the hits, I wouldn't  label his act a traveling jukebox. In fact, I wouldn't label the current Mike and Bruce act a traveling jukebox either, not with the set lists and shows they've put on in the last decade or so. The BB from early 80s- circa 2004 absolutely traveling jukebox.

[doc smiley]

My opinion was (and still is..) that Carl's big opportunity to be a songwriter was closely (very closely) tied to Jack Rielly.
It seemed that Carl was willing to lay down tracks (experiments) that Jack turned into songs by adding words and ideas to. When Jack left, Carl stopped doing these things. "Angel Come Home" was an exception to that.. with perhaps Dennis filling the void ofJack in this case...

[HeyJude]

It's so hard to predict what might have happened had Carl recovered. While he may have not been backing Al completely, would he have gone so far as to allow Al to be forced out? I think Carl had stopped making big decisions band related even before his illness. Although apparently he finally did vote with Al to fire the cheerleaders. He has been on record knowing that eventually Mike would be the last one touring so who knows how long we would have continued as a full time touring member even? Not having my copy of Marks/ Stebbins handy, I can't recall if it says in there who actually made the call to David Marks? Did Mike and Carl actually discuss it deeply, or was it a case as I said above of Carl removing himself from decisions? The state the BB are in today is in large part due to the events surrounding the Al/Mike rift. The real origins of separation between them might even go back to as early as 1980. Al is on record in the Knebworth interviews as hating that they were becoming a traveling jukebox.

Well, time can change one's perspective. I assume Al has no problem with being part of Brian's traveling jukebox shows today.

First of all, neither Brian's nor Mike's setlist in 2016 is anything approaching the "traveling jukebox" setlist that Mike was doing in 1998 and that the BBs, including Al and Carl, were doing in the mid-late 90s.

Secondly, the setlist was *not* a huge reason behind the rift between Al and Mike and was not a significant reason behind Al's exit from the touring band in 1998, from everything I know and have read.

I don't think *anyone* involved with the touring band *ever* made their membership in the band contingent on having a diverse setlist, as much as some members at certain times lamented the stale setlist that fans seemed to want. Carl may have come close to this during his 1981-82 departure, but even then it was not solely about the setlist and had more to do with lack of rehearsal and lack of interest in doing a new album, etc.

[tpesky]

I'm also quite sure the setlist didn't force anyone out of the band at all, but it could have been a small factor in the Mike/Al rift. Their rift was more than 1 issue I'm pretty sure.

[HeyJude]

I'm also quite sure the setlist didn't force anyone out of the band at all, but it could have been a small factor in the Mike/Al rift. Their rift was more than 1 issue I'm pretty sure.

I think a lot of other stuff was certainly a factor. I think things like the setlist and the cheerleaders were less a cause of Al exiting (Al didn't really ever "leave" the band in the normal/traditional sense), and more a cause of the grumbling from Al that annoyed Mike and may have contributed to Mike not wanting to work with Al.

I think there's some evidence Al could be contrarian and difficult. The question is whether he was sometimes justified in having a beef, and in cases like the cheerleaders or a stale setlist, I think a lot of us would find that a legit complaint.

But I think it was the business machinations regarding changing how the tours were being produced (and by whom, or whose company) that were some of the main reasons behind the rift. This is mentioned briefly in the Marks/Stebbins book. I believe Al saw what was coming, becoming an employee of a third party company licensing the BB name, and knew that among the many possibilities this created was the possibility of firing a member of the touring band without actually "firing" them from the band. It was, I'm guessing from Al's perspective, a very blatant power move, and one that Carl didn't contest apparently/allegedly.

[SMiLE Brian]

Mike's ego knew no bounds with that situation, why the hell would you make your 30+ year bandmates your employees in a company. Even BW in the 1960s as the "Stalin of the studio" never went that far.

[MarcellaHasDirtyFeet]

Regarding Al's "grumbling," I don't think it's been that well-documented-- just a few oblique references that he was difficult and bitchy, but never any firsthand accounts of specific things said or actions. Just insinuation that Al was a pain in the ass, without any evidence. I'd be interested in learning more about this split.

Also, yes, those keyboard sounds are obnoxious.

[Don Malcolm]

Jim, here is the key quote from Hepworth's book:

"It was probably the first case of a band making a tribute album to itself. It was a celebration of the band's own aura, an attempt to painstakingly recreate as adults what they had once instinctively done as teenagers, a touching bid to prove that the boys of summer could go on and on, singing about their days of wine and roses in much the same way that Sinatra had done for the Korean War generation. It would not be the last album of its kind. If the title wasn't elegiac enough, the cover picture, based on a piece of Western sculpture called The End of the Trail, supplied what was missing. Everything about the record harked back to the white-toothed, corn-fed "Disney Girls" of 1957, to the reworking of the Coasters, which was "Student Demonstration Time," to "Don't Go Near the Water." which hankered for the clean ocean of childhood, to the baroque title track that was the exhumed from the sessions from Smile and restored as agonizingly as a Piero della Francesca."

There's more, where Hepworth suggests that the BBs resurgence a couple of years later based on their old hits changed the dynamic of how rock bands would handle their long-term careers. "In defiance of the sixties wisdom that you're only as good as your last hit, the Beach Boys were the first group to prove that if your last hit was powerful enough, it really didn't matter how long ago it was."

Now, as noted, there is definitely a large grain of truth in what Hepworth says here about SURF'S UP--with the glaring exception of Carl's two tracks, which pull away from any sense of "nostalgia" as a result of the arrangements (and in Reiley's lyrical contributions). But the thesis runs up against the brick wall of CATP and Holland, which do not follow up in this "aura of nostalgia"--and CATP paid for that due to the hair-brained decision to couple it with a reissue of "Pet Sounds." Here the record company is complicit in perpetuating a variant of "nostalgia" by forcing the past and present to collide, with the present almost certain to lose.

Clearly SURF'S UP would have had a different "aura" had it contained "Sail On Sailor," "4th of July," "Wouldn't It Be Nice to Live Again."

[DonnyL]

The main thing that seems clear to me is that since Carl’s return to the group in the early ‘80s, he seemed to view the function of the group primarily as a commercial enterprise. There is really no evidence to suggest otherwise, and plenty to support it.

I personally feel that had Carl lived, he would have been receptive to the changing times and the reappraisal of the Beach Boys’ deeper works.

Re: Keyboard sounds — heh, well I think those sounds were less noticeably offensive at the time, they probably sounded “normal” to the group by that point. The ‘90s keyboards were sort of the transition between the synthetic ‘80s and the “realistic” modern era. I don’t think it was an intentional “let’s go for this sound” as much as just accepting the standards of the era.

[Lonely Summer]

The main thing that seems clear to me is that since Carl’s return to the group in the early ‘80s, he seemed to view the function of the group primarily as a commercial enterprise. There is really no evidence to suggest otherwise, and plenty to support it.

I personally feel that had Carl lived, he would have been receptive to the changing times and the reappraisal of the Beach Boys’ deeper works.

Re: Keyboard sounds — heh, well I think those sounds were less noticeably offensive at the time, they probably sounded “normal” to the group by that point. The ‘90s keyboards were sort of the transition between the synthetic ‘80s and the “realistic” modern era. I don’t think it was an intentional “let’s go for this sound” as much as just accepting the standards of the era.

Carl commented in 1983 that the group could make a solid commercial record with an outside producer, but that only Brian working with the group could bring out their best. The 1985 album was an effort at making the former; when it was not a major seller (although the guys today would love to have an album sell that well, and generate a couple of radio hits), I think he backed off as the studio leader. Mike stepped in to the breach, and took the band back to the beach. Yes, Carl's taste in music in the 80's/90's leaned more towards A/C - I am probably guilty of that myself. Never did have much interest in heavy metal or grunge. There came a point, maybe after Kokomo, when he realized he wasn't going to get what he wanted artistically out of the group, so he started looking at other avenues for artistic exploration - Like a Brother being one result. No, it wasn't cutting edge musically, but at least the lyrics weren't teen drivel about doing it the sand with some bimbo. Thank God Mike didn't get  his paws on any of those LAB songs. "I wish for you.....a night in the sand with me....where we can do it endlessly....I wish for you....to wear a tiny thong....we'll do it all night long"

[SMiLE Brian]

That is pretty much Mike's lyrics circa 1992

[Awesoman]

A lot of bands had that cheeseball synth sound going on at that time.  This was not uncommon.  It wasn't long until Nirvana and 90's alternative music put a decisive stop to this kind of production. 

[Lonely Summer]

That is pretty much Mike's lyrics circa 1992

Glad someone appreciated it

[SMiLE Brian]

Maybe make a SIP sound-like song with your band as a joke!

[Lonely Summer]

Maybe make a SIP sound-like song with your band as a joke!

That's a good idea!