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Author Topic: Are We Skewing The Meaning of (Beach Boys) Songs?  (Read 10483 times)
Robbie Mac
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« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2016, 05:15:54 PM »

This is a guy who married an underage girl (yes, he was 22 - but she was still underage). This is a guy who also wrote "Girl Don't Tell Me" and "The Little Girl I Once Knew". Brian, in song, had a thing for jail bait. At least back in the 60's.

I can totally buy his middle-aged jailbait songs as passive-agressive put ons directed toward his developnentally arrested first cousin.
I thought Marilyn was 16 when they married? That is legal age in some states. He wasn't Jerry Lee Lewis, marrying his 13 year old cousin!

I don't know what the age of consent was in California in 1964, but the current age is 18.
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« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2016, 05:23:39 PM »

This is a guy who married an underage girl (yes, he was 22 - but she was still underage). This is a guy who also wrote "Girl Don't Tell Me" and "The Little Girl I Once Knew". Brian, in song, had a thing for jail bait. At least back in the 60's.

I can totally buy his middle-aged jailbait songs as passive-agressive put ons directed toward his developnentally arrested first cousin.
I thought Marilyn was 16 when they married? That is legal age in some states. He wasn't Jerry Lee Lewis, marrying his 13 year old cousin!

I don't know what the age of consent was in California in 1964, but the current age is 18.

In some places, with the parents' approval, 13 was an appropriate age for marriage then.  It was a different time.  From what I understood from Brian, Marilyn's parents were wanting them to get married, so I'm guessing that's part of what happened.  Certainly, nothing illegal happened.
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Cyncie
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« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2016, 06:04:36 PM »

Debbie, I agree. And, on the creepy scale even in current culture this is fairly low.
As someone who's read a lot of history I've come to accept that almost everyone I admire has said or done or written something sexist/racist/classist, etc. because they are all humans living with and being influenced by other humans. I don't feel any need for denial nor do I think it necessarily says much about the person. As you indicate it more often says things about that person's time. Obviously if I was born in Georgia in 1840, I would have very different ideas about race than I do, not because I'm different, but because the culture I live in is different. But surely we can read a document written then, recognize the racism in the document, use it to learn about the times, but not condemn the writer.
I don't throw out all novels written before 1995 and condemn all the writers, even though just about every instance contains sexism. Most still do of course.
Brian Wilson was pressured to write along a formula of teenage boy-girl themes. Someone that age writing such a thing is at risk of creepiness. And, as you said, it was a creepy milieu. And there are worse things written then and now.
So, creepy lyrics; not creepy writer. Has happened before, will happen again.


Monotheism seems to have focused on sex - and the related desires - as being bad.  Frankly, I think due to that conditioning, we have no idea what to do with it - so we are creeped-out, etc. Because it's been so perverted in our minds over a few millennia, we all have problems thanks to that programming.  It's pretty sad, since it's fundamental to humans, but I'm as screwed up by the programming as anyone else, so I don't have the answer, other than trying to raise our kids/grandkids to be okay with their feelings.

Not so much "monotheism" in Western culture, I think, as puritanism (with a small p).  The Song of Solomon in the Old Testament is pretty much a celebration of sexual love. Even if churches prefer to think of it as allegory, the choice of imagery is definitely not prudishly uptight.
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« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2016, 06:35:16 PM »

Ty Debbie and Cyncie for representing, as you did so many other times, the voice of reason.
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« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2016, 11:30:31 PM »

This is a guy who married an underage girl (yes, he was 22 - but she was still underage). This is a guy who also wrote "Girl Don't Tell Me" and "The Little Girl I Once Knew". Brian, in song, had a thing for jail bait. At least back in the 60's.

I can totally buy his middle-aged jailbait songs as passive-agressive put ons directed toward his developnentally arrested first cousin.
I thought Marilyn was 16 when they married? That is legal age in some states. He wasn't Jerry Lee Lewis, marrying his 13 year old cousin!

I don't know what the age of consent was in California in 1964, but the current age is 18.

In some places, with the parents' approval, 13 was an appropriate age for marriage then.  It was a different time.  From what I understood from Brian, Marilyn's parents were wanting them to get married, so I'm guessing that's part of what happened.  Certainly, nothing illegal happened.
Yeah, if anyone  in the Beach Boys was having romps with underage girls, it would more likely have been Dennis or Mike. No, I'm not saying they did....and not saying they didn't, either.
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Debbie KL
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« Reply #30 on: June 26, 2016, 03:05:03 AM »

Debbie, I agree. And, on the creepy scale even in current culture this is fairly low.
As someone who's read a lot of history I've come to accept that almost everyone I admire has said or done or written something sexist/racist/classist, etc. because they are all humans living with and being influenced by other humans. I don't feel any need for denial nor do I think it necessarily says much about the person. As you indicate it more often says things about that person's time. Obviously if I was born in Georgia in 1840, I would have very different ideas about race than I do, not because I'm different, but because the culture I live in is different. But surely we can read a document written then, recognize the racism in the document, use it to learn about the times, but not condemn the writer.
I don't throw out all novels written before 1995 and condemn all the writers, even though just about every instance contains sexism. Most still do of course.
Brian Wilson was pressured to write along a formula of teenage boy-girl themes. Someone that age writing such a thing is at risk of creepiness. And, as you said, it was a creepy milieu. And there are worse things written then and now.
So, creepy lyrics; not creepy writer. Has happened before, will happen again.


Monotheism seems to have focused on sex - and the related desires - as being bad.  Frankly, I think due to that conditioning, we have no idea what to do with it - so we are creeped-out, etc. Because it's been so perverted in our minds over a few millennia, we all have problems thanks to that programming.  It's pretty sad, since it's fundamental to humans, but I'm as screwed up by the programming as anyone else, so I don't have the answer, other than trying to raise our kids/grandkids to be okay with their feelings.

Not so much "monotheism" in Western culture, I think, as puritanism (with a small p).  The Song of Solomon in the Old Testament is pretty much a celebration of sexual love. Even if churches prefer to think of it as allegory, the choice of imagery is definitely not prudishly uptight.

Wonderful, thanks!  The Song of Solomon was gorgeous, and it certainly wasn't anti-sexuality.  It's what some weird church leaders tried to make it later that was the problem - a bizarre power-grab.
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Debbie KL
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« Reply #31 on: June 26, 2016, 03:11:47 AM »

This is a guy who married an underage girl (yes, he was 22 - but she was still underage). This is a guy who also wrote "Girl Don't Tell Me" and "The Little Girl I Once Knew". Brian, in song, had a thing for jail bait. At least back in the 60's.

I can totally buy his middle-aged jailbait songs as passive-agressive put ons directed toward his developnentally arrested first cousin.
I thought Marilyn was 16 when they married? That is legal age in some states. He wasn't Jerry Lee Lewis, marrying his 13 year old cousin!

I don't know what the age of consent was in California in 1964, but the current age is 18.

In some places, with the parents' approval, 13 was an appropriate age for marriage then.  It was a different time.  From what I understood from Brian, Marilyn's parents were wanting them to get married, so I'm guessing that's part of what happened.  Certainly, nothing illegal happened.
Yeah, if anyone  in the Beach Boys was having romps with underage girls, it would more likely have been Dennis or Mike. No, I'm not saying they did....and not saying they didn't, either.

I met Brian when I was 17 and he was a sweet gentleman (and married) and he behaved that way.  There was a real innocence about him.  I think - at age 74 - there still is.  It's just him.  I always wondered why Brian was vilified for marrying a 16 year old when Carl did exactly the same thing.  I mean, they were both sweet young, romantic guys, and it wasn't that weird to marry a female that age at that time.  I don't think that the Hinsche's were creepy people - all I've heard is how sweet and lovely that they were/are, and the one time I met the Rovell's they were charming.  I'm guessing parental consent was required in both cases.   Different time and place...
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« Reply #32 on: June 26, 2016, 08:13:07 AM »

The first person speaker in Hey Little Tomboy is deliberately doubled-voiced. That is, he is at once meant to be heard as a teenage boy and also, leering and leching behind the teenage persona, adult men. They are the equivalent of a middle-aged film director making a raunchy movie about high schoolers : Fast Times at Ridgemont High, say.

This song exemplifies the odd position the Beach Boys found themselves in in the late 70's, post Endless Summer. It's right there in their name : Boys. And in their set list : Be True to Your School, Surfer Girl, Fun Fun Fun etc. Who are they when they are playing those songs? Men in their 30s? Teenagers? Should their new songs be about adult concerns, or should they return to their old subjects? What does their audience want?
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« Reply #33 on: June 26, 2016, 09:17:01 AM »

As Debbie KL said, and I agree, it was a different time and place.  Correct also, about the ages at which people married.  If you (a woman) weren't married by 24, you were considered an "old maid." That is not the average marriage age today.  And, likely parental consent was likely an issue.

And, I see no lecherous intent with Brian and the interview does talk about shaving legs, but that is not in the song and just a general off-the-cuff, "concept" comment. 

https//wwwyoutube.com/watch?v=A9AenU9iWEs

The interview from 1976. Hope it copies.   Wink
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« Reply #34 on: June 26, 2016, 12:31:06 PM »

This is a guy who married an underage girl (yes, he was 22 - but she was still underage). This is a guy who also wrote "Girl Don't Tell Me" and "The Little Girl I Once Knew". Brian, in song, had a thing for jail bait. At least back in the 60's.

I can totally buy his middle-aged jailbait songs as passive-agressive put ons directed toward his developnentally arrested first cousin.

Not just in song.  He had a thing for Marilyn's youngest sister, Barbara.  And apparently was having relations with Marilyn when she was underage.
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Debbie KL
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« Reply #35 on: June 26, 2016, 01:30:18 PM »

This is a guy who married an underage girl (yes, he was 22 - but she was still underage). This is a guy who also wrote "Girl Don't Tell Me" and "The Little Girl I Once Knew". Brian, in song, had a thing for jail bait. At least back in the 60's.

I can totally buy his middle-aged jailbait songs as passive-agressive put ons directed toward his developnentally arrested first cousin.

Not just in song.  He had a thing for Marilyn's youngest sister, Barbara.  And apparently was having relations with Marilyn when she was underage.

What is your definition of underage?  How could you possibly know at what age Brian was "having relations" with Marilyn?  And having a "thing" for someone doesn't make anyone guilty of anything, if that was even the case.  A person has to act on that "thing".  Are you really that hostile to Brian, and if so, why?

I will repeat myself for the sake of those who apparently don't read or comprehend: 
"I met Brian when I was 17 and he was a sweet gentleman (and married) and he behaved that way.  There was a real innocence about him.  I think - at age 74 - there still is.  It's just him.  I always wondered why Brian was vilified for marrying a 16 year old when Carl did exactly the same thing.  I mean, they were both sweet young, romantic guys, and it wasn't that weird to marry a female that age at that time.  I don't think that the Hinsche's were creepy people - all I've heard is how sweet and lovely that they were/are, and the one time I met the Rovell's they were charming.  I'm guessing parental consent was required in both cases.   Different time and place... "
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 01:57:30 PM by Debbie KL » Logged
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« Reply #36 on: June 27, 2016, 09:16:21 AM »

I have read a few comments about some of the Beach Boys "inappropriate" lyrics or "grown men singing about being in school chasing girls" and such.

I agree that if you know the ages of the guys singing, it can be weird. But is it possible that the songs are/were written in a manner where the listener is supposed to assume an age-appropriate relationship or desire? Or that the writer is reminiscing a bit?

It is only the listener that adds the creepiness factor to some songs by assuming the song is about old guys chasing young girls. People like the girl/boy songs. Older songwriters music - if written with an age appropriate pen - would probably be lost on the younger generation. By singing "young" it enables the listener to relate if they are in the younger age bracket, or if they are older, they will remember the way it felt to be chasing girls rather than worrying about getting enough fiber in their diet.

Music is an escape and the writer can be anyone he/she wants. We are the ones projecting age-inappropriate thoughts.

Nothing creepy or weird about it in my opinion ... in either scenario. It's art, come on.

... though obviously (to me), the songs were written from the perspective of a high school aged person. This is exemplified by lyrics about being in class, at school, etc. ("going to school isn't my fondest desire, but sitting in class she set my soul on fire"). This seems to be Brian writing "Beach Boys" type songs with topics that might appeal to teenagers.

There's also an interview where Brian explains "I Wanna Pick You Up", saying something like, "It's about a guy who considers his chick a baby" or something like that ... sort of supports the third-person idea. I actually think those lyrics are pretty clever.

But this is sort of like criticizing the Bee Gees for writing "New York Mining Disaster" because they were teenage boys who were not actually involved in a mining disaster in 1941.

But to address what seems to be your main point: "Age-appropriate" is kind of loaded term. The premise that an older man and a younger girl cannot have a valid relationship is sort of implied, and I don't think that's always true.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 10:03:29 AM by DonnyL » Logged

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« Reply #37 on: June 27, 2016, 10:42:30 AM »

I don't know what the sexual mores were like in Hawthorne in the earky 1960s, but Marilyn's parents seemed okay with it and I wonder of that five year age difference was that uncommon at the time. Obviously, things have moved on in most respects. I, too, regard Brian and whoever as writing in character when it comes to those mid-70s songs (and maybe for cathartic, therapeutical reasons) - not unlike Springsteen's endless litany of girls whose names end in y - okay, their ages aren't given, but you kinda figure out he's singing about a more youthful version of himself.  When asked about some inflammatory statement in a song by Eminem, Randy Newman pointed out that he was writing in role just like he often does - and noted, after all, that he didn't really hate short people.


Admittedly, I don't think it pays to look too closely to the way the stars and music of the period treated girls, whether that's 33 year-old Ringo singing, "You're Sixteen," 29 year-old Jackson Browne lamenting the loss of a sixteen year-old to the drummer in "Rosie" or  the reality of Jimmy Page with his 14 year-old groupie (or David Bowie who - according to internet scuttlebutt, 'knew' her a year earlier. I remember reading years ago an interview with Noddy Holder of Slade in which he - allegedly -  talked about groupies and noted that they asked their age, but once they said they were 16 or older, the band didn't ask any more questions.
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« Reply #38 on: June 27, 2016, 10:52:28 AM »

While I can overlook any "creepiness" due to age because the writer/singer is not the same as the 'character' singing (the "You're Sixteen" example), I have always had a problem with guys in their 70's singing "Isn't it time we go steady again?"  Because in that song it clearly is being sung from an older point of view and just sounds silly when they sing it.

The other lyric that give me pause is:
"Took me back darlin' to that time in my car
When you cried all night cause we'd gone too far"

It just paint a bad picture.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 10:54:35 AM by kermit27 » Logged
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« Reply #39 on: June 27, 2016, 11:36:13 AM »

I think there were also bands, perhaps at times the BBs included, that either counted on or at least indirectly benefitted from some listeners not really paying a lot of attention to lyrics. I've met many fans that *know* the lyrics to songs but haven't really truly "listened" to them or paid a great deal of attention.

Even I've been guilty of this with various songs/artists over the years, with the occasional "WTF?" moment when you actually closely pay attention to a given lyric. For instance, someone pointed out years ago that "Roller Skating Child" has the lyrics "we'll make sweet lovin' when the sun goes down, we'll even do more when her mama's not around." Assuming, now in 1976/77, "make sweet lovin'" is no longer simply a reference to polite canoodling, then wtf *else* constitutes "more?"

My thing with questionable lyrics like "Hey Little Tomboy" is this: As Emily mentioned, it's a creepy lyric, not a creepy writer. If *all* of his songs had been along the same train of thought, then it would be a different story. But the guys went through stages where they did "throwback" lyrics where the age of the "narrator" was creepy. I don't know if they ever cared or noticed. Perhaps they thought they could hide behind the same reasoning that allowed them to do the "oldies" with only occasional snarky criticism. I doubt Brian or Mike, had they been asked in 1978 to explain "Hey Little Tomboy", would have said "Oh yeah, it's a true life story about something that happened to me in 1976."

But in any event, my thing is this: They lyrics are sufficiently creepy that I don't think we need to be incredulous as to why some people would read such into it. We're not calling for anyone's head, we're not calling for a boycott, but rather simply pointing out how lecherous the lyrics were now and then.

I feel like, generally speaking, a BB message board is a pretty safe place to have such a discussion, because we all recognize, again to refer back to Emily's term, Brian's not a creepy writer.

I'm not going to walk into a newsroom in 2016 on a slow news day and play them "Lazy Lizzie" and egg them on to stir up a story about how creepy Brian was in 1976 and how he has a "secret scandalous song" in the vaults or something.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 11:39:24 AM by HeyJude » Logged

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« Reply #40 on: June 27, 2016, 12:48:33 PM »

I'm not going to walk into a newsroom in 2016 on a slow news day and play them "Lazy Lizzie" and egg them on to stir up a story about how creepy Brian was in 1976 and how he has a "secret scandalous song" in the vaults or something.

I'm a little concerned that this kind of story could actually be picked up by a news organization and run under a "You won't believe this Beach Boys song got released!" clickbait title, and the fact that HeyJude suggested such a thing means that, in some reality, it has already happened. Poor Brian  Cry
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« Reply #41 on: June 27, 2016, 01:51:22 PM »

Well, "Lazy Lizzie" hasn't been released. But to the general point, if news organizations want to start going through old song lyrics to look for objectionable things, they could find more "click bait-ish" material (e.g. more popular artists).

An article about "Hey Little Tomboy" would be about one step away from writing a new article touting "Do you know who Jerry Lee Lewis married and how old she was?"
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« Reply #42 on: June 27, 2016, 04:01:40 PM »

It's clear that the BB's song lyrics, for the most part, score low in terms of feminism. Even Jack Reiley rewriting "Marcella" still keeps the titular character on a pedestal. We see a clustering of "creepy" lyrics in the 1976-78 timeframe, much of it having to do with what critics at the time characterized as Brian's attempt to recapture a teen-age perspective. Let's face it, teenagers do have a strong tendency to be lustful. This is not an apology for poor cultural training--a problem that has been around for a long time in a patriarchal society and is still a long way from being transcended--but merely a recognition that matters of sex in that age range are quite often messy, manipulative, and suffer from a painful lack of articulation.

The tension between lechery, lovesickness, and a more exalted viewpoint of the ideals of romantic commitment are all over the BB's lyrics from the get-go. It's still in play on the tracks included in TWGMTR, where Mike makes several efforts to write lyrics that suggest that the BB's are still somehow "boys," and Brian sings lyrics that fully embrace the emotions and perspectives of growing old and coming to the end of one's life.
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« Reply #43 on: June 27, 2016, 06:00:55 PM »

It's clear that the BB's song lyrics, for the most part, score low in terms of feminism. Even Jack Reiley rewriting "Marcella" still keeps the titular character on a pedestal. We see a clustering of "creepy" lyrics in the 1976-78 timeframe, much of it having to do with what critics at the time characterized as Brian's attempt to recapture a teen-age perspective. Let's face it, teenagers do have a strong tendency to be lustful. This is not an apology for poor cultural training--a problem that has been around for a long time in a patriarchal society and is still a long way from being transcended--but merely a recognition that matters of sex in that age range are quite often messy, manipulative, and suffer from a painful lack of articulation.

The tension between lechery, lovesickness, and a more exalted viewpoint of the ideals of romantic commitment are all over the BB's lyrics from the get-go. It's still in play on the tracks included in TWGMTR, where Mike makes several efforts to write lyrics that suggest that the BB's are still somehow "boys," and Brian sings lyrics that fully embrace the emotions and perspectives of growing old and coming to the end of one's life.

I get everybody's point but it seems to me those old songs were written from the point of view of underage boys about underage girls where as these are from the point of view of over age men about under age girls and are Gary Puckett creepy.
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« Reply #44 on: June 27, 2016, 06:28:15 PM »

I listen to modern music with creepy lyrics.
It's no big deal.

Maybe Ariel Pink would really scare this pack of wimps.
 Cheesy

In my opinion Kokomo is way creepier than Roller Skating Child or Lazy Lizzie
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« Reply #45 on: June 27, 2016, 09:19:55 PM »

While I can overlook any "creepiness" due to age because the writer/singer is not the same as the 'character' singing (the "You're Sixteen" example), I have always had a problem with guys in their 70's singing "Isn't it time we go steady again?"  Because in that song it clearly is being sung from an older point of view and just sounds silly when they sing it.

The other lyric that give me pause is:
"Took me back darlin' to that time in my car
When you cried all night cause we'd gone too far"

It just paint a bad picture.
It does? They went too far, and presumably, broke up because of that...and now, years later, he wonders if he can ever get her back.
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« Reply #46 on: June 27, 2016, 09:54:08 PM »

I don't feel I'm being hostile to Brian in any way.  He apparently had a thing for young girls, as did many rock stars through the years.  Obviously in the case of Marilyn he acted on it, with the parents' consent.  And then, because it's Brian, he wrote about it in some songs because Brian is pretty transparent in his lyrics, what's on his mind comes out in his songs. 

But Brian pales in comparison to other rock stars such as Chuck Berry, Jimmy Page, the San Francisco bands - all were involved with underage girls at a time when it wasn't considered as serious a crime as today (statutory rape).  And other groups wrote songs about it - Come Up the Years by Jefferson Airplane, Young Girl by Gary Puckett, etc.
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« Reply #47 on: June 27, 2016, 10:48:57 PM »

Even beloved mainstream artists such as David Bowie and Prince regularly challenge audiences.
The Beach Boys should abolutely not be limited to being the Leave it to Beaver of rock and roll.
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« Reply #48 on: June 28, 2016, 05:12:05 AM »

While I can overlook any "creepiness" due to age because the writer/singer is not the same as the 'character' singing (the "You're Sixteen" example), I have always had a problem with guys in their 70's singing "Isn't it time we go steady again?"  Because in that song it clearly is being sung from an older point of view and just sounds silly when they sing it.

The other lyric that give me pause is:
"Took me back darlin' to that time in my car
When you cried all night cause we'd gone too far"

It just paint a bad picture.

Every time I ever heard that lyric from Getcha Back, I always pictured two platonic friends who fooled around a little bit, and immediately regretted it.
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« Reply #49 on: June 28, 2016, 05:25:04 AM »

While I can overlook any "creepiness" due to age because the writer/singer is not the same as the 'character' singing (the "You're Sixteen" example), I have always had a problem with guys in their 70's singing "Isn't it time we go steady again?"  Because in that song it clearly is being sung from an older point of view and just sounds silly when they sing it.

The other lyric that give me pause is:
"Took me back darlin' to that time in my car
When you cried all night cause we'd gone too far"

It just paint a bad picture.

Every time I ever heard that lyric from Getcha Back, I always pictured two platonic friends who fooled around a little bit, and immediately regretted it.

And that reminds me of this other no-turning-back song----in a minor key, as if to rub it in:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klCXBkn0VGs
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