The Filmore East - last 3 nights feat the Beach Boys + other contemporary acts

[Cam Mott]

"First they hoped to produce two shows with the group, but the pace of ticket sales made them settle for one show on February 24."

[guitarfool2002]

"First they hoped to produce two shows with the group, but the pace of ticket sales made them settle for one show on February 24."

Was that Carlin's book? If so, that is the misleading info. Like I already said, if Chip Rachlin had tried to secure two shows for the band but could only get an agreement for one, explain how slow ticket sales would account for "settling" for one show when the second show was possibly never agreed to in the first place?

You cannot cancel a show based on slow ticket sales (or suggest that is what happened) if the booking for that show was never agreed to and therefore tickets were never offered for it.

[Cam Mott]

"First they hoped to produce two shows with the group, but the pace of ticket sales made them settle for one show on February 24."

Was that Carlin's book? If so, that is the misleading info. Like I already said, if Chip Rachlin had tried to secure two shows for the band but could only get an agreement for one, explain how slow ticket sales would account for "settling" for one show when the second show was possibly never agreed to in the first place?

You cannot cancel a show based on slow ticket sales (or suggest that is what happened) if the booking for that show was never agreed to and therefore tickets were never offered for it.

Yes, Carlin's book and I gave the page number for context.

Mr. Carlin will have to explain his allegedly misleading claims; his email address is in his member page:  petercarlin@news.oregonian.com  You can contact him or I can try to contact him and direct him to your "misleading info" post if you'd like.  Oh, I guess you or I could PM him instead, duh.

Perhaps they had hoped to add a second show, maybe even on a second day, but slow sales for the first didn't justify it and they settled for the one.  It could be a lot of things, which he will have to explain.

[guitarfool2002]

It's easier than that. I posted an ad for the concert. Find an ad, a flyer, a magazine column, anything...advertising that tickets were being sold for two shows at Carnegie Hall. Repeating again, you cannot cancel a show for slow ticket sales if no tickets to that show were offered for sale.

The ad I posted says one show. People who were there said one show. The band said one show. The promoter said that one show was sold out by showtime, which means Carnegie Hall was, in fact, "packed".

If someone has evidence to the contrary, please produce it. Simple as that. Ads, flyers, etc...anything listing tickets for sale for two Carnegie shows in Feb 71. The evidence produced here so far says one show.

[Cam Mott]

It's easier than that. I posted an ad for the concert. Find an ad, a flyer, a magazine column, anything...advertising that tickets were being sold for two shows at Carnegie Hall. Repeating again, you cannot cancel a show for slow ticket sales if no tickets to that show were offered for sale.

The ad I posted says one show. People who were there said one show. The band said one show. The promoter said that one show was sold out by showtime, which means Carnegie Hall was, in fact, "packed".

If someone has evidence to the contrary, please produce it. Simple as that. Ads, flyers, etc...anything listing tickets for sale for two Carnegie shows in Feb 71. The evidence produced here so far says one show.

Yes, the claim is one show happened but another show didn't because of the pace of ticket sales, so Peter could straighten out how that happened. Just PM him, I'm sure he would be glad to explain/clarify if he can.

[guitarfool2002]

It's easier than that. I posted an ad for the concert. Find an ad, a flyer, a magazine column, anything...advertising that tickets were being sold for two shows at Carnegie Hall. Repeating again, you cannot cancel a show for slow ticket sales if no tickets to that show were offered for sale.

The ad I posted says one show. People who were there said one show. The band said one show. The promoter said that one show was sold out by showtime, which means Carnegie Hall was, in fact, "packed".

If someone has evidence to the contrary, please produce it. Simple as that. Ads, flyers, etc...anything listing tickets for sale for two Carnegie shows in Feb 71. The evidence produced here so far says one show.

Yes, the claim is one show happened but another show didn't because of the pace of ticket sales, so Peter could straighten out how that happened. Just PM him, I'm sure he would be glad to explain/clarify if he can.

Peter isn't the only one who published that claim, and he's not commenting in this thread, or calling what was written about the band packing Carnegie Hall "quite misleading". They sold it out.

For the record, that 'ad' I posted was taken from the Carnegie Hall archives, direct from the source.

If anyone can find another ad or flyer or poster showing two shows at Carnegie in Feb 71 where tickets were being sold, produce it. Open call.

Otherwise, the suggestion that a second show was canceled due to poor ticket sales is a myth that should (and will) be busted.

[Cam Mott]

It's easier than that. I posted an ad for the concert. Find an ad, a flyer, a magazine column, anything...advertising that tickets were being sold for two shows at Carnegie Hall. Repeating again, you cannot cancel a show for slow ticket sales if no tickets to that show were offered for sale.

The ad I posted says one show. People who were there said one show. The band said one show. The promoter said that one show was sold out by showtime, which means Carnegie Hall was, in fact, "packed".

If someone has evidence to the contrary, please produce it. Simple as that. Ads, flyers, etc...anything listing tickets for sale for two Carnegie shows in Feb 71. The evidence produced here so far says one show.

Yes, the claim is one show happened but another show didn't because of the pace of ticket sales, so Peter could straighten out how that happened. Just PM him, I'm sure he would be glad to explain/clarify if he can.

Peter isn't the only one who published that claim, and he's not commenting in this thread, or calling what was written about the band packing Carnegie Hall "quite misleading". They sold it out.

For the record, that 'ad' I posted was taken from the Carnegie Hall archives, direct from the source.

If anyone can find another ad or flyer or poster showing two shows at Carnegie in Feb 71 where tickets were being sold, produce it. Open call.

Otherwise, the suggestion that a second show was canceled due to poor ticket sales is a myth that should (and will) be busted.

He says they hoped to produce two shows but they settled for one because of pace of ticket sales, the poster shows the one happened but it doesn't disprove the other didn't happen due to poor ticket sales.  I don't understand, you are asking for evidence, Carlin published the info, so contact Carlin for his evidence.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Just throwing this out there...

That wasn't the only inaccuracy in Peter's book. The description of the 1974 California Feeling was quite a bit different from what it ended up being.

[guitarfool2002]

Here is what I have from my own research, and granted it is only one source but it would have been one of the primary news/print resources for rock audiences in New York looking to buy tickets for a show, The Village Voice. This may be old news for some, but I'm just putting it out there for discussion.

The Voice from 1971:

Jan. 7th issue page 29, critic Robert Christgau reviews Sunflower in his column and gives it an "A".

Jan 21 issue page 42, the ad I posted above for the Carnegie show appears, what looks like the first time. One show advertised as on the copy reprinted here, 8 pm.

Jan 28 issue page 44, same ad appears, one show 8pm.

Feb 4 issue page 36, same ad appears again, one show 8pm.

***Here is the mystery, and possibly the source of the previous info***

Feb 11 issue, page 48, same ad appears again, one show 8pm. BUT a new script is added which reads "by popular demand, special second show added". Yet there are no additional show times, it's just that quoted sentence pasted on the same ad. No details on tickets for this supposed second show, no details on whether it would be the same day/night, what time, etc. Just that one line.

Feb 18 issue: Nothing about the show, no ads.

Feb 25 issue, published the week of the show: No ads for the show, but a full page ad for Sunflower on page 35.

It would make sense to schedule a full page ad for the current album the week the band would be in town.

What doesn't make sense is that added sentence about the special second show. No info about it being canceled, no info at all about tickets or times for this second show, no mention of a second show other than that line copied onto the existing ad.

So that could actually be one of the sources being referenced, but that's all there was for info related to a second show. Why or how did it get added, was it just a promotional schtick to generate more demand, or was there really that much demand that it was considered wise to open up another show?

And why, above all, was there no information about this supposed second show, most glaringly a lack of any info about ticketing or the actual showtime itself so fans would know?


So that's what was in the Village Voice related to this Carnegie show. If it was Chip Rachlin trying to bump up the sales by adding this "by popular demand" line to the same ad which had been running for three straight weeks prior, maybe he did it for promotional reasons without there being tickets available for another show. If there even was another show added in reality.

Did anyone actually have an opportunity to buy tickets for this second show and then have to get a refund when it was canceled? What time was it set to start? Were tickets even sold?

Or was it promotional hucksterism from even Carnegie's marketing, or maybe as I said did Rachlin want a second show but Carnegie didn't accept the offer?

Whatever the case, for three solid weeks there was an ad offering tickets for one show, at 8pm.

Two weeks (give or take) prior to Feb 24th, there was that same ad with a new line added to it, yet nothing further about it.

By the week of the show, there was nothing except a full page ad for Sunflower.

I still have to think there were no tickets actually sold for another show, since there was no information for it, and no follow-ups for fans who may have even bought a ticket for this added show. If tickets even existed. No info on the cancellation, either.

So far.

So that's where my info was coming from on this. Knowing there was a line added to an ad that was running for three weeks, but still seeing no proof that tickets were actually sold or even printed for a second show, or that a showtime had even been stated for another show.

Maybe someone who was there can help clarify this. But that's how it played out week by week in the Voice.

And I can see where someone researching who came across that ad from 2/11/71 in the Voice decades later would take that to mean there was a second show. But to go beyond that one added line to make definitive statements about cancellations due to poor sales, there would need to be more concrete info. Namely, was anyone able to buy tickets for a second show and did they get a refund if it was canceled.

And it still remains that the actual Feb 24th, 8pm show which was advertised starting a month prior did in fact sell out, and Carnegie was packed with fans to see the Beach Boys perform on the 24th.

[Cam Mott]

So there is evidence in print of an added second show with tickets available by mail order sent to Carnegie Hall (at least).  Hopefully Peter can add more detail about the cancelling of the cancelled added show.

[Cam Mott]

And I can see where someone researching who came across that ad from 2/11/71 in the Voice decades later would take that to mean there was a second show. But to go beyond that one added line to make definitive statements about cancellations due to poor sales, there would need to be more concrete info. Namely, was anyone able to buy tickets for a second show and did they get a refund if it was canceled.

The second show additions to the February 11 ad show tickets were for sale for the added show:

BY POPULAR DEMAND, SPECIAL
SECOND SHOW ADDED.

Mail Orders:
Send Stamped Self Addressed
Envelope To Carnegie Hall

[guitarfool2002]

Jan 21 1971:



Jan 28 1971:



Feb 4 1971:



Feb 11 1971:





Those were the ads. Was there ever a time given for a second show? Did people who sent an SASE in the mail for tickets specifically for the second show actually get them, or did they get tickets for the 8pm show? Could you walk to the box office at Carnegie and buy tickets specifically for a show other than the 8pm show?

This is what I'm trying to run through the process, and figure out what was going on. The ad clearly has that listing for 'show added', but were tickets ever distributed for it, or did it even go in the books? It could have, or it could have been a marketing tactic, it's hard to tell based on just those ads.

Maybe someone will remember either buying tickets for this second show and then getting a refund, or something related to a show that never seems to have gotten a showtime listing.

[Cam Mott]

Ask Peter if he happens to have that sort of evidence for why the second show was canceled.  

The evidence and claims are not inconsistent so far: by Feburary 11 they wished to produce a second show and advertised tickets for it as for sale, the first show eventually sold out or sold to within 18 tickets of being sold out but sometime after February 11 the pace of ticket sales for a second show made them cancel it and settle for the one show.

It will be interesting to see Peter's evidence.


Also for what it is worth, Gaines claims on page 240 that the deal from the beginning was for two shows on February 24 but "the second show hardly sold at all and had to be canceled".

[Cam Mott]

Rachlin Entertainment's website says:

"Feb. 24, 1971 changed my life. A near sellout crowd at Carnegie Hall was gobsmacked at how good the Beach Boys were that night. We had no money for an opening act so Klenfner and I convinced the band to play two hours. My god they sounded fucking great. I signed them to the Millard Agency four days later and represented them for the next eight years."

So the shows were to be 2 hours apparently.  Maybe more info is available to you through their website.

[guitarfool2002]

So it looks like Gaines could have been the source of this info all along. If there were even a listing for a showtime, or anything else to suggest a show was being ticketed other than the 8pm show which happened and was listed on every ad from first to last, there would be more to back up the claim that a second show was cancelled due to poor ticket sales. All we have is a line of text added to the existing ad about a second show, and absolutely nothing in the way of a time, or proof that fans actually bought tickets for that second show. If they did, if it were announced 12 days prior to the 24th or so (less than two weeks), did those fans get cheaper seats for the actual 8pm show, or did they get refunds since it was sold out by the afternoon of the 24th? Not enough info.

[KC41]

On page 198 of the Jon Stebbins book, "The Beach Boys FAQ", he states that two shows were planned but not enough tickets were sold for a second.
on page 288 of the Keith Badman book,"The Definitive Diary of America's Greatest Band", he states that shortly after announcing a second show the promoters call it off. Carlin, Stebbins and Badman all reference a second show and poor/slow ticket sales.

The point of my original post was that my recollection from that time, living on Long Island, very close to NYC, and being a huge fan, there really was NO significant "buzz" leading up to the Carnegie Hall show. NONE !  Zero !  The buzz happened as a result.
Although stating Carnegie Hall was packed is accurate , I guess, put that into some kind of context. I still think that tends to mislead. Carnegie Hall holds only 2,800 people. By all accounts the tickets sold very slowly. Ray Lawlor is quoted as saying he was at the concert and Chip Rachlin told him the show didn't sell out until the afternoon of the show. The Keith Badman book states that 80% of the tickets were sold in the last five days before the show.  So, assuming Mr. Badmaan is correct, that means that  prior to the five days leading up to the concert approximately 560 tickets had been sold. 560 !!! In a city of 8 million people. For the most important American  rock band in history.

The fact is they hadn't played NYC in a while and STRUGGLED to sell less than 3,000 tickets to a concert at one of the world's most prestigious concert halls in one of the biggest cities in the world. Within another year or so things changed dramatically.

[guitarfool2002]

And I'm saying where is there even a bit of proof beyond what looks like the Gaines' book initial claim that a second show was cancelled due to poor ticket sales, and that same info which has been repeated by other authors and books that followed Gaines? You see the ads posted above, where is there a time listed for a second show, or anything beyond a line of text that would show they were selling tickets for a second show and not just putting text on an existing ad to boost demand?

If I were reading the Voice on Feb 12th 1971 and had just seen that ad to mail in for tickets, and I asked for tickets via mail to this second show...and enclosed money...what would I have gotten? If I paid 6 bucks for a great close-up seat to a second show, and it got cancelled, did i get the 6 bucks back or did they send me a ticket in the cheap unsold seats for the actual 8pm show listed in the ad? When would the other show start, and would I blindly send 6 bucks a piece for tickets to a show that didn't have a time listed in the ad?

Too many questions still remain.

[Robbie Mac]

Chip Rachlin is on Facebook. Maybe he could solve the mystery.

[Cam Mott]

Chip Rachlin is on Facebook. Maybe he could solve the mystery.

Even better probably and easier.

[guitarfool2002]

That would be the source, absolutely. At least we'd (hopefully) hear what happened, whether another show was cancelled due to poor sales or whether there was another factor. At this point what we have are the ads posted above, and I don't see any times or specific ticket sales for this second show listed anywhere.

[kermit27]

I just came across this thread which is about the same Fillmore East show: http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/june-27-1971-fillmore-east-closes-with-final-epic-show.559904/