Carl Wilson - The Man - The Mystery

[bb4ever]

So very much has been written about Brian and Dennis that I feel content in what I know about them.  No so much with Carl, and he is and always has been my favorite beach boy.  From everything I've read, he was a wonderful person who people can't say enough nice things about.   Not only did his voice sound 'other worldly', but the descriptions of him seem the same. 

I have a couple of questions:   Why did he and Annie divorce?  Were the couple of imperfect moments he had in Australia before or after his split from her.  (By the way, what rock person ever apologizes for their bad behavior?  Unreal!)  He wrote a song for her (Angel Come Home) and she wrote a very loving message about him after his passing -- clearly they still had love and respect for each other.   How was their relationship post split?  He seemed very happy with Gina -- why did it take him so long to marry her? 

Another point I'd like to make - a bit off topic of Carl, but I think it is really cool how extended the Beach Boy/Wilson Family is.  It seems all the ex-wives still attend Beach Boy events, speak kindly of their ex's, and all the cousins are actually friends.  I think it's a legacy to be proud of. 

[bringahorseinhere?]

I was thinking just recently, while he was in this rock band, WHY did he never 'show off' as a kickass guitar player?
he was good at 16, as his solo's were and playing on the early albums. 
Yet, as they rocked things up in the 70's, he never had many dominating guitar solo's.
He is not really thought of as a great picker, just the 'bandleader' etc or the 'glue' of the band.
wasted opportunity to show off those guitar chops he no doubt must have had.
Man! imagine at one point during these later shows, Carl rocking out with a fuzz toned 'misirlou'!
I'd love to see more of his stuff, his most 'rock' playin seems to be on knebworth 1980 on 'keepin the summer alive'.
I just don't want any of Carl's solo's to end.

[bb4ever]

I recently posted something saying I wondered if Carl ever regretted not being able to really rock out, which is all I think he set out to do initially.  Mr. Desper responded that he never sensed any regret or anything negative from Carl.   Still......I think if he had had his choice, it might have been a different kind of music for him.

[Lonely Summer]

Just my humble opinion: I think, in later years, Carl thought of himself more as a singer than a guitar player. Even on his solo tours, he handed over the lead guitar duties to another guy.

[Lonely Summer]

So very much has been written about Brian and Dennis that I feel content in what I know about them.  No so much with Carl, and he is and always has been my favorite beach boy.  From everything I've read, he was a wonderful person who people can't say enough nice things about.   Not only did his voice sound 'other worldly', but the descriptions of him seem the same. 

I have a couple of questions:   Why did he and Annie divorce?  Were the couple of imperfect moments he had in Australia before or after his split from her.  (By the way, what rock person ever apologizes for their bad behavior?  Unreal!)  He wrote a song for her (Angel Come Home) and she wrote a very loving message about him after his passing -- clearly they still had love and respect for each other.   How was their relationship post split?  He seemed very happy with Gina -- why did it take him so long to marry her? 

Another point I'd like to make - a bit off topic of Carl, but I think it is really cool how extended the Beach Boy/Wilson Family is.  It seems all the ex-wives still attend Beach Boy events, speak kindly of their ex's, and all the cousins are actually friends.  I think it's a legacy to be proud of. 

Carl is my favorite Beach Boy, too. I mean, what is there not to like about him as a man and musician? It's interesting that, even after the divorce, Carl wanted Billy Hinsche to be in his band; and to this day, Billy has nothing but kind things to say about him. His dvd about Carl is very good for a look at the personal side of Carl. Billy's liner notes for the 2 solo cd's are also well written, very informative. No one's ever said - to my knowledge - why the marriage fell apart.

[Debbie KL]

So very much has been written about Brian and Dennis that I feel content in what I know about them.  No so much with Carl, and he is and always has been my favorite beach boy.  From everything I've read, he was a wonderful person who people can't say enough nice things about.   Not only did his voice sound 'other worldly', but the descriptions of him seem the same. 

I have a couple of questions:   Why did he and Annie divorce?  Were the couple of imperfect moments he had in Australia before or after his split from her.  (By the way, what rock person ever apologizes for their bad behavior?  Unreal!)  He wrote a song for her (Angel Come Home) and she wrote a very loving message about him after his passing -- clearly they still had love and respect for each other.   How was their relationship post split?  He seemed very happy with Gina -- why did it take him so long to marry her? 

Another point I'd like to make - a bit off topic of Carl, but I think it is really cool how extended the Beach Boy/Wilson Family is.  It seems all the ex-wives still attend Beach Boy events, speak kindly of their ex's, and all the cousins are actually friends.  I think it's a legacy to be proud of. 

Carl is my favorite Beach Boy, too. I mean, what is there not to like about him as a man and musician? It's interesting that, even after the divorce, Carl wanted Billy Hinsche to be in his band; and to this day, Billy has nothing but kind things to say about him. His dvd about Carl is very good for a look at the personal side of Carl. Billy's liner notes for the 2 solo cd's are also well written, very informative. No one's ever said - to my knowledge - why the marriage fell apart.

Well, consider that fact that I believe Carl was 19 and Annie was 16 when they were married.  I would think very few couples would survive a marriage that early in life.  That doesn't mean people don't still care for each other, just that life happens, particularly when people are that young.  Details beyond that are probably irrelevant and probably nobody's business unless those involved care to share them.  I didn't say that to be reproachful.  I'm just saying it because I suspect it's a closed subject.  As far as the Australia event, that was a long time after the split. 

[clack]

Another mystery : why did Carl step back from the leadership position post-Holland? It was 7 years before he recorded another self-penned song, and when he did begin to write again his songs and arrangements seemed to have lost their adventurous edge.

He also handed off the main production duties to Al, Bruce, and sundry others, even when Brian was not interested or capable. Did Carl, like Brian before him, just grow tired of being the main guy in the studio?

[CenturyDeprived]

Another mystery : why did Carl step back from the leadership position post-Holland? It was 7 years before he recorded another self-penned song, and when he did begin to write again his songs and arrangements seemed to have lost their adventurous edge.

He also handed off the main production duties to Al, Bruce, and sundry others, even when Brian was not interested or capable. Did Carl, like Brian before him, just grow tired of being the main guy in the studio?

I could easily see Carl finding it difficult to emotionally deeply invest in being the band's producer after having the reins pulled out from under him post-Holland and given back to Brian (and I say that as a fan of 15BO and Love You). Carl and Jack were onto something really deep before the Brian is Back albums.

Even if Carl wasn't necessarily consciously resentful of losing his position as a primary producer of the band's studio recordings, it's probably a case of what Brian himself felt after SMiLE: It's mighty hard for an artist (especially a sensitive Wilson) to emotionally invest themselves at the top level of which they are capable of, if their work isn't going to be appreciated or gets rejected in some way, even if that rejection is just due to circumstance, and not due to people not liking their work.

That, and the fact that Carl had to juggle being the rational brother who felt responsibility to keep his other brothers from going over the edge, never more so than as the '70s dragged on post-Holland. I can't imagine how that gigantic distraction, coupled with his own personal and drug problems, wouldn't impact his songwriting/producing game.

[bb4ever]

Carl definitely had more than the lion's share of responsibility with the band and with the family.  He not only had to lead the band from the time Brian left, but he also became the leader in the family - supporting Brian's vision for the music, keeping an eye on Dennis and encouraging his talent, and taking care of his mom. I think he also stepped in with Brian and Dennis' children when they weren't able.  I read something Carnie said about him teaching her how to drive and Scott wrote about needing money so he called Uncle Carl, who wrote him a check for $10,000.   Some people in life are givers.  Carl was definitely a giver.

[Lonely Summer]

Carl definitely had his hands full. I still think the weight of these responsibilities eventually contributed to his early death. And I agree that Carl's personality was more like his mother's than his father's. Brian and Dennis seemed to take after their father more - minus the physical abuse. instead, they took the abuse out on themselves.
I've seen a lot written in recent years about Carl's later songs being less adventurous than the early 70's stuff. I think part of that was, that's just where mainstream rock and pop had gone by the late 70's. A friend of mine had the honor of Carl sitting in with him as guest dj in 1977 or 78. The stuff he picked was the Rolling Stones, Chicago,  Little Feat, Bee Gees, Emmylou Harris, very mainstream for FM rock stations in the late 70's. He wasn't asking to play punk and new wave stuff. The "Youngblood" album rocks pretty good, but in a Doobie Brothers way, not a Clash way, or a AC/DC way.

[mabewa]

Another mystery : why did Carl step back from the leadership position post-Holland? It was 7 years before he recorded another self-penned song, and when he did begin to write again his songs and arrangements seemed to have lost their adventurous edge.

He also handed off the main production duties to Al, Bruce, and sundry others, even when Brian was not interested or capable. Did Carl, like Brian before him, just grow tired of being the main guy in the studio?

I could easily see Carl finding it difficult to emotionally deeply invest in being the band's producer after having the reins pulled out from under him post-Holland and given back to Brian (and I say that as a fan of 15BO and Love You). Carl and Jack were onto something really deep before the Brian is Back albums.

Even if Carl wasn't necessarily consciously resentful of losing his position as a primary producer of the band's studio recordings, it's probably a case of what Brian himself felt after SMiLE: It's mighty hard for an artist (especially a sensitive Wilson) to emotionally invest themselves at the top level of which they are capable of, if their work isn't going to be appreciated or gets rejected in some way, even if that rejection is just due to circumstance, and not due to people not liking their work.

That, and the fact that Carl had to juggle being the rational brother who felt responsibility to keep his other brothers from going over the edge, never more so than as the '70s dragged on post-Holland. I can't imagine how that gigantic distraction, coupled with his own personal and drug problems, wouldn't impact his songwriting/producing game.

Carl worked extremely hard to revive the BB's as a contemporary artistic entity, and then that was all derailed with Endless Summer, and then 15 Big Ones, which to me (and many others) represented a giant step back.  He made it clear in interviews that he wasn't happy with the direction that the band was going in.  He may have just lost motivation to write for a while as a result. 

[Needleinthehay]

Speaking of Carl, why did the band breakup practically immediately after his death? I know Carl was the "glue" that held them together but have any of them ever said why, according to them?

[Lonely Summer]

Another mystery : why did Carl step back from the leadership position post-Holland? It was 7 years before he recorded another self-penned song, and when he did begin to write again his songs and arrangements seemed to have lost their adventurous edge.

He also handed off the main production duties to Al, Bruce, and sundry others, even when Brian was not interested or capable. Did Carl, like Brian before him, just grow tired of being the main guy in the studio?

I could easily see Carl finding it difficult to emotionally deeply invest in being the band's producer after having the reins pulled out from under him post-Holland and given back to Brian (and I say that as a fan of 15BO and Love You). Carl and Jack were onto something really deep before the Brian is Back albums.

Even if Carl wasn't necessarily consciously resentful of losing his position as a primary producer of the band's studio recordings, it's probably a case of what Brian himself felt after SMiLE: It's mighty hard for an artist (especially a sensitive Wilson) to emotionally invest themselves at the top level of which they are capable of, if their work isn't going to be appreciated or gets rejected in some way, even if that rejection is just due to circumstance, and not due to people not liking their work.

That, and the fact that Carl had to juggle being the rational brother who felt responsibility to keep his other brothers from going over the edge, never more so than as the '70s dragged on post-Holland. I can't imagine how that gigantic distraction, coupled with his own personal and drug problems, wouldn't impact his songwriting/producing game.

Carl worked extremely hard to revive the BB's as a contemporary artistic entity, and then that was all derailed with Endless Summer, and then 15 Big Ones, which to me (and many others) represented a giant step back.  He made it clear in interviews that he wasn't happy with the direction that the band was going in.  He may have just lost motivation to write for a while as a result. 

It must have been very discouraging to be hit with the realization that all their audience wanted to hear was the old stuff. When they were playing the Surf's Up/Holland era material, they were a band with a very loyal cult following; when Endless Summer hit, suddenly they were playing stadiums and filling the places up. So that presents a dilemma: do they keep on creating progressive material and hope that the audience will follow them on the journey? Or do they try to create new music in the style of the old hits? The third option being - if neither option A or B works, just tour endlessly and forget about recording. By 1980, that's what it was down to for the guys. Carl, as a solo artist, was not playing arenas and stadiums (except as opening act for the Doobies), but I think he liked the challenge it presented. When he returned to the group, it seems his attitude was 'okay, guys, even if we don't have any new stuff to play, let's at least play the old songs like we care about them'.

[Don Malcolm]

This is why I find it very interesting to explore the dynamics of the band in 73-75, when Jack left and there was a great deal more "bottom line" pressure coming into play. It seems that Carl found himself stymied by this development and was unable to find a path through a maze of competing interests. Carl always seems to have needed a writing partner and Jack's departure may have contributed to his inability to pump new songs of his own into what suddenly seemed to be a songwriting vacuum. (Please note that I herewith acknowledge the knee-jerk dissent about Jack's character and talent that is likely to enter these pages below in a reply from filledeplage.)

When Endless Summer hit in '74, there were several available responses to it that could have at least given the band options for creating a contemporary identity that could stand alongside the pre-Pet Sounds material. WB did make a (pretty feeble) attempt to cash in on the buzz from ES when they rereleased "Sail On Sailor" in '75, but it's rare to have lightning strike twice--what was needed, and what the band failed to supply to WB at the time, was fresh material. That didn't happen, and '75 brought more oldies-based success and a sudden crisis point in Brian's condition, which resulted in "the intervention known as Landy I" and pushed the band into the "Brian Is Back" scenario, effectively kicking the 67-73 material to the curb. Dennis' response was to get his solo LP together; Carl's was to have a series of personal setbacks--marriage, health, drugs--that bottomed out for him in the late 70s, from which he battled back with new writing partners and, a bit later, his go at a solo career.

[JK]

For me the very best Carl guitar workout is the one on "Feel Flows" (I keep wanting to say feelsflow). I can't get enough of it (Charles Lloyd's flute and sax aid rather than abet what Carl is doing). Of course, the entire song is in a field of one.

Correct me if I'm wrong but this passage and Ricky's Moog outing on "Leaving This Town" are the only two extended BB workouts over a brief repeating pattern.     

[MarcellaHasDirtyFeet]

This is why I find it very interesting to explore the dynamics of the band in 73-75, when Jack left and there was a great deal more "bottom line" pressure coming into play. It seems that Carl found himself stymied by this development and was unable to find a path through a maze of competing interests. Carl always seems to have needed a writing partner and Jack's departure may have contributed to his inability to pump new songs of his own into what suddenly seemed to be a songwriting vacuum. (Please note that I herewith acknowledge the knee-jerk dissent about Jack's character and talent that is likely to enter these pages below in a reply from filledeplage.)

When Endless Summer hit in '74, there were several available responses to it that could have at least given the band options for creating a contemporary identity that could stand alongside the pre-Pet Sounds material. WB did make a (pretty feeble) attempt to cash in on the buzz from ES when they rereleased "Sail On Sailor" in '75, but it's rare to have lightning strike twice--what was needed, and what the band failed to supply to WB at the time, was fresh material. That didn't happen, and '75 brought more oldies-based success and a sudden crisis point in Brian's condition, which resulted in "the intervention known as Landy I" and pushed the band into the "Brian Is Back" scenario, effectively kicking the 67-73 material to the curb. Dennis' response was to get his solo LP together; Carl's was to have a series of personal setbacks--marriage, health, drugs--that bottomed out for him in the late 70s, from which he battled back with new writing partners and, a bit later, his go at a solo career.

Great timeline/analysis, Don. Nice post.

[clack]

Carl definitely had his hands full. I still think the weight of these responsibilities eventually contributed to his early death. And I agree that Carl's personality was more like his mother's than his father's. Brian and Dennis seemed to take after their father more - minus the physical abuse. instead, they took the abuse out on themselves.
I've seen a lot written in recent years about Carl's later songs being less adventurous than the early 70's stuff. I think part of that was, that's just where mainstream rock and pop had gone by the late 70's. A friend of mine had the honor of Carl sitting in with him as guest dj in 1977 or 78. The stuff he picked was the Rolling Stones, Chicago,  Little Feat, Bee Gees, Emmylou Harris, very mainstream for FM rock stations in the late 70's. He wasn't asking to play punk and new wave stuff. The "Youngblood" album rocks pretty good, but in a Doobie Brothers way, not a Clash way, or a AC/DC way.

Perhaps too much to ask, but there was a path forwards for Carl and for the band in the late 70 s that didn't involve remaking themselves into a New Wave or avant garde act a la Rust Never Sleeps or Bowie's Berlin trilogy.

And that was the path Lindsey Buckingham took with TUSK. Mainstream rock, but with adventurous, inventive production and arrangements, an organic outgrowth from the seeds Brian had planted a dozen years previously.

[filledeplage]

This is why I find it very interesting to explore the dynamics of the band in 73-75, when Jack left and there was a great deal more "bottom line" pressure coming into play. It seems that Carl found himself stymied by this development and was unable to find a path through a maze of competing interests. Carl always seems to have needed a writing partner and Jack's departure may have contributed to his inability to pump new songs of his own into what suddenly seemed to be a songwriting vacuum. (Please note that I herewith acknowledge the knee-jerk dissent about Jack's character and talent that is likely to enter these pages below in a reply from filledeplage.)

When Endless Summer hit in '74, there were several available responses to it that could have at least given the band options for creating a contemporary identity that could stand alongside the pre-Pet Sounds material. WB did make a (pretty feeble) attempt to cash in on the buzz from ES when they rereleased "Sail On Sailor" in '75, but it's rare to have lightning strike twice--what was needed, and what the band failed to supply to WB at the time, was fresh material. That didn't happen, and '75 brought more oldies-based success and a sudden crisis point in Brian's condition, which resulted in "the intervention known as Landy I" and pushed the band into the "Brian Is Back" scenario, effectively kicking the 67-73 material to the curb. Dennis' response was to get his solo LP together; Carl's was to have a series of personal setbacks--marriage, health, drugs--that bottomed out for him in the late 70s, from which he battled back with new writing partners and, a bit later, his go at a solo career.

DM - I think that the other two Wilsons had untapped talent and Jack did not confer talent upon them.  I think that Jack's contribution is less than the Wilson influence on him (Jack) - maybe that is poorly expressed but my take is that Jack got more from them than the other way around.  And it is a function of that 6-7 year window when the Boys had to re-invent themselves and perhaps that, is what Jack was helpful with.  

It is hard to explain that post-Vietnam era of levity, with former teens were coming of adult age and responsibility. The Beach Boys fit in better with their "down time" with the resurgence of the interest in the earlier music and the tremendous sales of Endless Summer.  How else can that dynamic going to #1 in the USA and Canada, be explained away?  Jack was "over."  (Notwithstanding his continuous tendency to be disingenuous.) I would argue that it is not knee-jerk.  A person's credentials should reflect who they are "at that moment" and not whom they wish they were.

How can the dynamic of the emergence of disco be explained?  It is not that Carl (or Dennis) would abandon solo work (as evidenced by their solo albums) but that the times had changed again in that seven year window.  It went from 1965-66 to a serious wartime climate, to 1973-4 to a peacetime climate and they had been very successful in the commercial context, during peacetime.    

[marcella27]

This is why I find it very interesting to explore the dynamics of the band in 73-75, when Jack left and there was a great deal more "bottom line" pressure coming into play. It seems that Carl found himself stymied by this development and was unable to find a path through a maze of competing interests. Carl always seems to have needed a writing partner and Jack's departure may have contributed to his inability to pump new songs of his own into what suddenly seemed to be a songwriting vacuum. (Please note that I herewith acknowledge the knee-jerk dissent about Jack's character and talent that is likely to enter these pages below in a reply from filledeplage.)

When Endless Summer hit in '74, there were several available responses to it that could have at least given the band options for creating a contemporary identity that could stand alongside the pre-Pet Sounds material. WB did make a (pretty feeble) attempt to cash in on the buzz from ES when they rereleased "Sail On Sailor" in '75, but it's rare to have lightning strike twice--what was needed, and what the band failed to supply to WB at the time, was fresh material. That didn't happen, and '75 brought more oldies-based success and a sudden crisis point in Brian's condition, which resulted in "the intervention known as Landy I" and pushed the band into the "Brian Is Back" scenario, effectively kicking the 67-73 material to the curb. Dennis' response was to get his solo LP together; Carl's was to have a series of personal setbacks--marriage, health, drugs--that bottomed out for him in the late 70s, from which he battled back with new writing partners and, a bit later, his go at a solo career.

I'm curious what you mean by health setbacks.  Do you just mean in the context of drugs, or where there other health problems at that time?  Just curious. 

[Emdeeh]

Probably referencing Carl's back problems. He tried to lift and move a heavy television set and wound up in traction.

[CenturyDeprived]

Probably referencing Carl's back problems. He tried to lift and move a heavy television set and wound up in traction.

I would not be surprised if Carl's back problems were either partly, or perhaps even entirely psychosomatic in origin, due to stress and emotions. Not to downplay actual physical injury which of course is possible... but I speak personally as someone who overcame some debilitating pain by learning about psychosomatic pain (specifically, Dr. John Sarno's book "The Mindbody Prescription"), as well as a coworker with years of debilitating back pain who also largely cured herself via reading this same book, after I lent her my copy. Sounds crazy, and I would not have believed it had I not experienced it myself...but it's true.

Don't mean for this to sound like an infomercial, just sharing my story, and how my experiences have led me to often gravitate toward thinking that many others who have physical pain (in particular, back pain) can be a result of, or at the very least, significantly exacerbated by, emotional issues. Even if Carl had doctors diagnose him with some sort of back injury, such a diagnosis can still be incorrect, with the psychosomatic origin being the real, underlying cause.

Goodness knows Carl had a lot of emotional turmoil in his life regarding his family, way more than anyone should endure.

[HeyJude]

Not to veer off-topic, but while psychosomatic pain is undoubtedly a real thing, it's not the major factor at play when someone sustains an injury, gets various x-rays and scans, with proof of a herniation, nerves being pressed upon, etc.

I also speak from experience where a family member went to a doctor with severe back and neck pain, and was having trouble convincing the doctor to do a detailed scan, and was told his pain was due to "stress", smoking, a divorce, etc. Sure, those things certainly usually don't help pain. But eventually, he got a scan and had numerous severely herniated discs which required surgery.

If Carl sustained some sort of injury, didn't go to a doctor, and just lived with the pain, then perhaps some of it could have been a psychosomatic issue. But if he went to a doctor and had something diagnosed (which I would assume would be the case if he was in traction), and especially if injuries were indicate via x-ray or scans over the years, then I wouldn't assume anything other than it being a real injury and real, unavoidable pain.

[filledeplage]

Probably referencing Carl's back problems. He tried to lift and move a heavy television set and wound up in traction.

I would not be surprised if Carl's back problems were either partly, or perhaps even entirely psychosomatic in origin, due to stress and emotions. Not to downplay actual physical injury which of course is possible... but I speak personally as someone who overcame some debilitating pain by learning about psychosomatic pain (specifically, Dr. John Sarno's book "The Mindbody Prescription"), as well as a coworker with years of debilitating back pain who also largely cured herself via reading this same book, after I lent her my copy. Sounds crazy, and I would not have believed it had I not experienced it myself...but it's true.

Don't mean for this to sound like an infomercial, just sharing my story, and how my experiences have led me to often gravitate toward thinking that many others who have physical pain (in particular, back pain) can be a result of, or at the very least, significantly exacerbated by, emotional issues. Even if Carl had doctors diagnose him with some sort of back injury, such a diagnosis can still be incorrect, with the psychosomatic origin being the real, underlying cause.

Goodness knows Carl had a lot of emotional turmoil in his life regarding his family, way more than anyone should endure.

CD - I'm not a doc.  What I do know about back pain, is that it can be structural (genetic) or caused by an "incident" such as moving a TV, or even some kind of growth, which struck a nerve (pun intended) as I did a similar dumb thing and my range of motion was affected for years, and swimming helped me to regain most of it. 

And, often when docs can't identify the cause or source of the pain, it goes to the psychosomatic pile. Having watched big brother Brian's shuffling and assisted gait, suggests to me, that there is a structural relationship that both brothers dealt with.  Some kind of commonality. Carl's predisposition was likely exacerbated by moving that heavy TV. 

Stress does not help and can tighten up the muscles in an already bad back, but when docs can't see it on an x-ray, and a lot of this was before the really sophisticated scans were developed, I'm thinking the brothers shared probably something else in common besides great hair and voices.   

[CenturyDeprived]

Not to veer off-topic, but while psychosomatic pain is undoubtedly a real thing, it's not the major factor at play when someone sustains an injury, gets various x-rays and scans, with proof of a herniation, nerves being pressed upon, etc.

I also speak from experience where a family member went to a doctor with severe back and neck pain, and was having trouble convincing the doctor to do a detailed scan, and was told his pain was due to "stress", smoking, a divorce, etc. Sure, those things certainly usually don't help pain. But eventually, he got a scan and had numerous severely herniated discs which required surgery.

If Carl sustained some sort of injury, didn't go to a doctor, and just lived with the pain, then perhaps some of it could have been a psychosomatic issue. But if he went to a doctor and had something diagnosed (which I would assume would be the case if he was in traction), and especially if injuries were indicate via x-ray or scans over the years, then I wouldn't assume anything other than it being a real injury and real, unavoidable pain.

Sorry if this veers off-topic, but I will bring it back to Carl...

HeyJude - While I certainly won't say that all back pain is unequivocally psychosomatic, I will just add that even despite multiple diagnoses that you mentioned (getting various x-rays and scans, with proof of a herniation, nerves being pressed upon), a person can nevertheless *still* have those things incorrectly diagnosed as being the reason for the pain. Sometimes, things that appear as abnormalities and injuries via x-ray are in fact not actually the source of the pain. Or to put it another way, a person's emotional state and longterm emotional baggage can contribute to keeping that pain acute and persistent... the subconscious mind's way of inadvertently making the pain a means of distracting a person from tough emotional matters at hand.

Those aren't my words; those are the words of the author of the book I mentioned, Dr. Sarno, as well as lots of his patients who too received multiple diagnoses (by other doctors, stating that they found a physical cause for the pain) as I'd imagine Carl did too. It may seem hard to believe, but Sarno is often quick to poopoo such diagnoses, and be proven correct. In case anyone's curious to see a 20/20 segment on the doctor and this topic (and read the comments, which don't necessarily "prove" my theory, but might lend it some possible credence):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsR4wydiIBI

I'm only such a strong believer in it because it happened to both me AND a coworker friend (who too was diagnosed with various forms of medical "proof" that she thought backed up a physical cause for her back pain)... otherwise I'd be just as doubtful. In the case you mentioned, a doctor telling a patient it is just "stress" - and simply leaving it at that - would be of no help; the method I'm speaking of actually requires specific step-by-step instructions being followed, and a serious commitment and belief by the patient, for it to be effective.

Again, I only pose this as a possibility as it could have applied to Carl. Nobody will ever know for sure. I just think that Carl happens to fit the ideal/typical mold of a person under a particularly heavy load of tremendous stress/emotional pressure, which perhaps coincidentally, but perhaps not, is very similar to how Dr. Sarno describes most people who he'd diagnose as treatable by his method.  Just keep in mind - a common part of the personality that experiences this type of pain is that of being a people-pleaser, which I think described Carl to a T.

[HeyJude]

In terms of Carl, I think it totally depends on what tests and diagnoses were involved.

I don't disagree that pain can be psychosomatic, but when someone has *zero* pain, and is involved in one specific incident (car accident, etc.), and then gets *numerous* scans showing visible (to a laid person and to the naked eye) injury such as a herniation, bulging or ruptured disc, etc., and only after the injury starts to suffer from severe pain (not to mention other things that can occur due to herniations, including numbness, inability to walk, loss of bladder control, etc.), to suggest in *that* scenario that it's psychosomatic (and/or that maybe the doctors and technicians all read numerous tests/xrays/scans incorrectly?) is something I'd find to be offensive, dismissive, patronizing, and in some cases dangerous.

I've seen people who blow out a disc in their back due simply to sneezing, and who then couldn't even walk for weeks if not months. That's not psychosomatic.

If someone just develops some severe pain for no particular obvious reason, and has a bunch of other possible factors at play (stress, etc.), then I'd be open to the possibility in that scenario.

I think addressing how the mind can affect things, and using all sorts of techniques to cope with pain, are all potentially valid. I certainly believe the mind can help heal. But the mind does not make your disc rupture and keep you from walking or using the restroom or feeling your legs. Can a broken ankle be psychosomatic too?

But yeah, I think we'd have to largely agree to disagree that any significant amount of people with serious injuries and copious amounts of specialist diagnoses are suffering predominantly from psychosomatic pain. And because pain is so subjective and personal, it's even more difficult to measure.

To bring it back to Carl, I would never leap to assume anything about his malady, because I'd be apprehensive about making such a leap even regarding someone I know and whose medical history I have some level of familiarity. I'm not one of those "we shouldn't talk about their personal lives" people. As long as we all know we're just guessing, I think the topic of Carl's pain and injuries is fine. But I think we just have too little data to even begin to guess at what Carl's deal was. The little bit of info Emdeeh provided certain sounds like a real, legit injury and subsequent treatment.