Brian Wilson: ‘The voices started after LSD’

[CenturyDeprived]

I have just finished reading the Rolling Stone Collectors Edition on Pink Floyd. One article reprinted was about Syd Barrett's fall into madness. A lot of discussion from band members & inner circle about the effects of LSD on Syd.

Some say he was headed towards mental issues all along, song say LSD flipped that switch. Others say he went mad by the heavy, constant dosing of LSD. Not comparing Syd to Brian but it's interesting to think about. Two mad geniuses tripped up by LSD apparently.

I wonder how aware of each other, and in particular, each other's mental issues attributed to the same drug, Syd and Brian were/are of each other.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Just a theory, but I think Brian would've had his issues whether or not he had dropped acid, and Syd  wouldn't have....but Syd was far worse off than Brian ever was.

IMHO.

[Emily]

I have just finished reading the Rolling Stone Collectors Edition on Pink Floyd. One article reprinted was about Syd Barrett's fall into madness. A lot of discussion from band members & inner circle about the effects of LSD on Syd.

Some say he was headed towards mental issues all along, song say LSD flipped that switch. Others say he went mad by the heavy, constant dosing of LSD. Not comparing Syd to Brian but it's interesting to think about. Two mad geniuses tripped up by LSD apparently.

Or not.
"Some say he was headed towards mental issues all along"
I think at times both of them were also crazy as in "crazy like a fox." Meaning that the crazy is over-blown and a lot of what each did had a logic and was perhaps a sane reaction to their circumstances. Some people don't want the life that everybody thinks they should want.

[thorgil]

I think Brian, originally, was the sanest in the crazy world revolving around him. That takes a big toll on anybody, particularly when you are also the main money provider.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Good point,  and I think you may be right.  It would make sense.

[thorgil]

Ty Billy. Of course I agree with you that Brian would've had his issues whether or not he had dropped acid, and don't see any contradiction in what Brian himself says. When he names "doing drugs" as his grestest regret, he's perfectly right. He can't regret his genes, his father or people's greediness: he had no responsabilities there. Drugs he could have avoided, though with a great exercise of willpower. Probably drugs weren't his main problem, but they surely didn't help.
I think today's Brian is rather self-conscious about his public character and doesn't want to be "a bad example" for youth. Imho that explains two of the main staples of his interviews, i.e. his regret for drugs and his advice to young musicians to always complete songs (another big regret of his, I guess).

[filledeplage]

I think Brian, originally, was the sanest in the crazy world revolving around him. That takes a big toll on anybody, particularly when you are also the main money provider.

And, I would agree.  Brian misses nothing on stage, looks pretty aware of everything that is going on, notices audience members, will send a smile their way, or the OK sign, but, even if there was some underlying issue, Brian treats the LSD as an "event" in the same way being in a car accident is...an event" - marked in time, that Brian tells us, that had a profound and lasting/permanent effect.  

Brian would know best as one knows one's own self.  Substances, whether prescribed or not, can have no effect or a lasting effect.  Brian asserts that it was lasting and not in a good way.  

[SurfRiderHawaii]

I have just finished reading the Rolling Stone Collectors Edition on Pink Floyd. One article reprinted was about Syd Barrett's fall into madness. A lot of discussion from band members & inner circle about the effects of LSD on Syd.

Some say he was headed towards mental issues all along, song say LSD flipped that switch. Others say he went mad by the heavy, constant dosing of LSD. Not comparing Syd to Brian but it's interesting to think about. Two mad geniuses tripped up by LSD apparently.

Or not.
"Some say he was headed towards mental issues all along"
I think at times both of them were also crazy as in "crazy like a fox." Meaning that the crazy is over-blown and a lot of what each did had a logic and was perhaps a sane reaction to their circumstances. Some people don't want the life that everybody thinks they should want.

I make no conclusions.  But it is interesting that there was debate amongst Syd's band mates as to if, and to what degree, LSD had contributed to his mental breakdown.

In Brian's case, he continued to produce master works post LSD, the genius continued!  While Syd, on the other hand, was  finished. And not that Syd was ever an equal to Brian.

[Debbie KL]

I think Brian, originally, was the sanest in the crazy world revolving around him. That takes a big toll on anybody, particularly when you are also the main money provider.

Agreed.  Brian is often the sanest person in the room to this day - even if it's a concert hall, I'm thinking.  While the rest of us get caught up in things to the point that we lose it, he seems to have that ability to step back and see it clearly. As FdP said, Brian misses nothing onstage.  I'm thinking he doesn't miss much going on, period.  It's quite a gift (and a curse, probably).

[Bicyclerider]

At the time Brian was enthusiastic about his LSD trips and unlike Syd Barrett who has been reported to have taken LSD almost daily for weeks at a time, which could mess with anyone's mind permanently, Brian took a limited number of trips - he has said three I believe.  Even after a bad trip, once the drug is out of the system the individual is usually back to their baseline, although there can be flashbacks and panic attacks.  Other than Brian I have never heard of anyone after LSD hearing voices on a daily basis telling them negative things.  So although you can never say for sure Brian would have heard the voices even if he hadn't taken LSD, I find it very unlikely that LSD was the cause.  Mental illness was the cause and Brian was showing signs of that before LSD.  The LSD may have accelerated it but it would have happened anyway.

I've spoken to paranoid schizophrenics who abused drugs including LSD and it was clear that their mental illness preceded and prompted the drug use and the drug use made the mental illness worse more quickly - and yes I realize Brian is schizoaffective and not paranoid schizophrenic but the idea is the same.

[Cam Mott]

At the time Brian was enthusiastic about his LSD trips and unlike Syd Barrett who has been reported to have taken LSD almost daily for weeks at a time, which could mess with anyone's mind permanently, Brian took a limited number of trips - he has said three I believe.  Even after a bad trip, once the drug is out of the system the individual is usually back to their baseline, although there can be flashbacks and panic attacks.  Other than Brian I have never heard of anyone after LSD hearing voices on a daily basis telling them negative things.  So although you can never say for sure Brian would have heard the voices even if he hadn't taken LSD, I find it very unlikely that LSD was the cause.  Mental illness was the cause and Brian was showing signs of that before LSD.  The LSD may have accelerated it but it would have happened anyway.

I've spoken to paranoid schizophrenics who abused drugs including LSD and it was clear that their mental illness preceded and prompted the drug use and the drug use made the mental illness worse more quickly - and yes I realize Brian is schizoaffective and not paranoid schizophrenic but the idea is the same.

I'm not a doctor but going only by Google (which is never wrong) some feel there may be a link between LSD and schizoaffective symptoms, perhaps a weak link. Maybe it's just me from a few synopsis on Google (which is never misleading either) my civilian sense is schizoaffective might be a label for not sure; confusing symptoms which are sort of this and sort of that but not really this or not really that.

[Paul J B]

And further...try and get a clear definition of the difference between schizoaffective and paranoid schizophrenic. Most of the symptoms are identical. I doubt the upcoming book will clear things up, but you would think that Brian or someone very close to him would be able to say with some certainty when the voices indeed started. Some of the stuff regarding Brian and the Beach Boys is in fact pretty cut and dried, but no one ever seems to take the time to clarify.

[Amy B.]

The existence of a correlation between the time Brian took drugs and the time he first showed symptoms doesn't mean there's a causation.

Brian took drugs, which may or may not have exacerbated his symptoms, but there's no evidence that the drugs caused the mental illness. He was a young adult, in the time of life when schizo- type illnesses usually take hold. He was also in the time of life when many people experiment with drugs. But the fact that the two things took place at roughly the same time doesn't mean one caused the other.

However, I'm sure whatever happened when he took LSD couldn't have helped his peace of mind.

[Emily]

Schizoaffective Disorder and Schizophrenia are separately defined in the DSM with different signs.
Cam, what synthesis of peer-reviewed studies did you find that show it's likely that LSD causes schizophrenia or schizoaffective disorder?

[Cam Mott]

Schizoaffective Disorder and Schizophrenia are separately defined in the DSM with different signs.
Cam, what synthesis of peer-reviewed studies did you find that show it's likely that LSD causes schizophrenia or schizoaffective disorder?

None, this:

https://www.nami.org/NAMI/media/NAMI-Media/Images/FactSheets/Schizoaffective-Disorder-FS.pdf

[guitarfool2002]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/04/01/lsd-could-make-you-smarter-happier-and-healthier-should-we-all-try-it/?postshare=5701459688240312&tid=ss_mail

[Emily]

I know I've read a good synthesis of studies, but I apparently didn't book mark it and don't have time to find it now. In the meantime, here are a few:
http://www.emmasofia.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Psychedelics-not-linked-to-mental-health-problems-or-suicidal-behavior.pdf?115a76
The study above is discussed in:
http://www.ntnu.edu/news/2013-news/lsd-survey
http://www.nature.com/news/no-link-found-between-psychedelics-and-psychosis-1.16968

This (http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/42393/title/Studies--Psychedelics-Not-Bad-for-Mental-Health/) discusses that study as well as this one: http://jop.sagepub.com/content/29/3/280

The Johansen study is also discussed here (http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2015/03/truth-about-psychedelics-and-mental-illness.html), along with a third by Matthew W. Johnson from Johns Hopkins and  Peter S. Hendricks, Christopher B. Thorne, C. Brendan Clark and David W. Coombs of the University of Alabama at Birmingham. I don't have time to find the original paper, but if you search 'Johnson Hendricks LSD' you will find many pages with citations and summaries.

So, are there any peer-reviewed studies that support the claim that there's a causative relationship? I've searched and found the opposite.

[Mr. Wilson]

You can put on this list.. Peter Green Jeremy Spencer Danny Kirwan.. From the original Fleetwood Mac.. They all flipped out.. LSD in question came from soundman.. Owsley Stanley of the Grateful Dead....Mac played many gigs with the DEAD.. orange sunshine.. purple haze.. orange barrel.. paper acid... clear light.. among other variations.. BW  also took this along with many others .. If you lived on west coast in 60"s and 70"s this is what you bought.. how far east this went i dont know.. The stuff was to strong.. No one knew how many mikes was a normal dose.. Pete townsend took acid at WOODSTOCK.. Said he was on a trip for a WEEK.. UNACEPTABLE... The Dead played woodstock.. LOL.. This info is in numerous books and online.. You can laugh if ya want but its true..

[Paul J B]

Schizoaffective Disorder and Schizophrenia are separately defined in the DSM with different signs.

Right...but many of the symptoms are similar if not identical. Complicating things further, a patient can see three Psychiatrists and is liable to get varying diagnosis and treatment methods.

In any case my two cents on this thread is not intended to debate medical definitions and such. One last time.....it should not be that hard to get a factual answer as to if Brian heard voices well before taking LSD or not. 1963 as mentioned in the film? 1964? 1965? Debating what extent drugs played a roll or cause and affect is a separate issue. You would think Brian or someone would know.

[Cam Mott]

I'll wait until someone does a synopsis of those studies (too lazy) but the point was what Brian claims, like:

"When HuffPost Live asked the veteran singer if he felt his LSD narrative had been exaggerated over the years, he candidly replied, “Not really, no.”

“The truth is that I did take LSD,” he continued. “All I know is that after I took it, I had auditory hallucinations.”

Brian Wilson

[CenturyDeprived]

I'll wait until someone does a synopsis of those studies (too lazy) but the point was what Brian claims, like:

"When HuffPost Live asked the veteran singer if he felt his LSD narrative had been exaggerated over the years, he candidly replied, “Not really, no.”

“The truth is that I did take LSD,” he continued. “All I know is that after I took it, I had auditory hallucinations.”

Brian Wilson

Again I pose the question: does that mean that LSD in and of itself is necessarily to blame? Or perhaps just the fact that he took too big a dose at one time?

Not trying to be an LSD apologist, or to say that it's a wise move to take LSD if one might have any emotional/mental problems already brewing. I just still contend that it's *possible* that had Brian taken a smaller dose, or perhaps a dose of just a completely different origin, that perhaps things would have turned out differently.

IMO, it's perhaps the LSD narrative that has been exaggerated, when maybe it should be just a bit more focused on the fact that he took some SUPER strong stuff, which may be the real reason why it had such an impact. I of course can still understand how Brian would dissuade anyone from ever taking LSD under any circumstances, considering what happened to him, and considering all of the unknowns of how any given dose could affect any particular person adversely. It's certainly risky.

[Emily]

I find it remarkable that posted scientific studies sway no one's opinion which is based on their anecdotal sample of 2-5 people.
Obviously I should stop finding that remarkable.

[Debbie KL]

I find it remarkable that posted scientific studies sway no one's opinion which is based on their anecdotal sample of 2-5 people.
Obviously I should stop finding that remarkable.

Emily - you definitely shouldn't find that remarkable (although I do, as well).

People prefer their own opinions over science in 101% of scientific studies (sorry, a joke, but not).

[guitarfool2002]

I find it remarkable that posted scientific studies sway no one's opinion which is based on their anecdotal sample of 2-5 people.
Obviously I should stop finding that remarkable.

Emily - you definitely shouldn't find that remarkable (although I do, as well).

People prefer their own opinions over science in 101% of scientific studies (sorry, a joke, but not).

People prefer their own opinions over the truth whenever the truth makes them look like an ass. 

[guitarfool2002]

Some facts about "Bear" Owsley in this article. And worth noting as this article mentions, the previous supplies of LSD were coming in from either the pure Sandoz labs batches, or any number of underground chemists who were trying to synthesize and recreate the drug and not succeeding. Owsley and Melissa Cargill happened to be the most skilled chemists who succeeded, around 1964-65, and at the time the drug had not yet been made illegal (that was October 1966) but the materials to make it were very expensive and restricted as to who could buy the materials and compounds needed to make it (more info in the article). The government trials and tests of the kind Ken Kesey was paid to participate in used the Sandoz labs products, I believe, as these were the most pure and clean doses of the drug, and direct from the original lab source. It was the Sandoz LSD that was also being explored by the medical fields and the fields of psychiatry and psychology in the late 50's and early 60's, in clinical studies and controlled uses on patients, as well as various CIA and military "studies".

http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/owsley-stanley-the-king-of-lsd-20110314?page=5