Thoughts on Dennis (previous question)

[Stephen W. Desper]

COMMENT:  I thought this question/answer deserved re-posting.

Quesntion from john k....
Stephen, what are your own personal thoughts about the Surf's Up outtakes, 4th of July + Wouldn't it Be Nice (to Live Again), in terms of how the album was affected by their absence?

COMMENT:  The songs on the album were chosen because they were finished. 4th' was only a backing track, recorded for a paper I gave at a Hollywood AES meeting on quad recording. The Carl lead was a scratch lead (not meant for release.) At this stage there is no production value to the song, cliché drums, and the only BG is Dennis' multiple overdubs as a harmonic pad. It simply was not finished -- and never was. It may have been released, but never finished. 'Live Again was pulled from the album by Dennis who thought other writers should contribute songs to the album, since he had so many on Sunflower. He wanted to keep it "in the can" until the album following SU or for a solo work. As it is now, it's all Dennis. Unless the Beach Boys at the time would have re-worked it to include their harmonies, putting it on SU would not have represented the group. I think Denny really wanted to keep it for a solo slot. Therefore, the album was not affected by these songs one way or the other. But as I said, they are representative of Dennis, not the Beach Boys.

There are many songs, great songs, that Dennis wrote and started to record, but never finished because new ideas would come along. These two songs are indicative of Denny's morning sessions where he (Dennis) sang all the parts and played many of the instruments. He would laydown all the vocal parts expecting to replace them with Beach Boy voices. The tracks were samples (not samplings) for the guys to use at a future time for what to sing. Future times never came. Support of Dennis from the group was superseded by their own self-absorption in their own creations. Dennis made the mistake of using the studio at the time when no one was around. Thus, he had all the time he wanted to record, but no personnel (except me) to work with. By the time the rest of the group came into the studio, Dennis was off at the beach with his tapes sitting on the shelf not being heard. Unfortunately Dennis never wrote things down, he used the tape recorder as his sheet music working out little segments of his songs. He taught himself much of what he was musically and the rest came by osmoses from his brothers. If he had been more involved with the group and stayed in the studio when they were all assembled there, I'm certain his talents would have become more integrated into the group, but as it was, Dennis remained the undiscovered Beach Boy talent until quite late. There's a lot of unproductive time spent in studios as other people do things or technical stuff has to be done. Dennis' restless nature did not give him the patience to wait around for things to happen. So he preferred to work alone at his own pace, but that independence is not the thing a group is made of. Dennis was not that much of a team player. Once he recorded his ideas, he turned them over to Carl or Brian to finish. He would pop in once in a while to see what had been done, but finishing something was not in his nature. Thus, you-all can project other group voices onto Dennis' sample tracks all you wish, but I know Dennis was quite capable of singing all the parts and some in the style of others. And, by the way, that vamp and flute noodling at the end of 'Live Again is not suppose to be part of the song. As does happen at times, the musicians are just grooving at the end -- venting out pent-up creative juices. Back in the days of their creation these songs never got to the point of mixdown, so this song, when it was mixed without guidance some forty hears after-the-fact, included the ending.
Good Listening, ~Stephen W. Desper

[Needleinthehay]

Thanks for the info....Really fascinating....Had been wondering the circumstances regarding those songs....

isnt the "accepted history" though that carl and dennis had a disagreement about whether "wouldnt it be nice to live again" should be the last song or not and so dennis pulled it? Is that not true?

[JK]

Just to give credit where's credit's due, it was CenturyDeprived who asked that question...

Stephen, what are your own personal thoughts about the Surf's Up outtakes, 4th of July + Wouldn't it Be Nice (to Live Again), in terms of how the album was affected by their absence?

...and was answered in the first paragraph. The second paragraph was the answer to Billy's and my query about the backing vocals: 

Who is the backing vocalist on WIBNTLA that sounds like Blondie? Did he guest on the song before officially joining the band?

I reckon it's Carl you're hearing. Seems only he and Brian sang backup. Maybe Mr. Desper can clarify. 

A small matter really. It has given us some wonderful insights. :=)

[Cool Cool Water]

COMMENT:  The songs on the album were chosen because they were finished. 4th' was only a backing track, recorded for a paper I gave at a Hollywood AES meeting on quad recording. The Carl lead was a scratch lead (not meant for release.) At this stage there is no production value to the song, cliché drums, and the only BG is Dennis' multiple overdubs as a harmonic pad. It simply was not finished -- and never was. It may have been released, but never finished. 'Live Again was pulled from the album by Dennis who thought other writers should contribute songs to the album, since he had so many on Sunflower. He wanted to keep it "in the can" until the album following SU or for a solo work. As it is now, it's all Dennis. Unless the Beach Boys at the time would have re-worked it to include their harmonies, putting it on SU would not have represented the group. I think Denny really wanted to keep it for a solo slot. Therefore, the album was not affected by these songs one way or the other. But as I said, they are representative of Dennis, not the Beach Boys.

There are many songs, great songs, that Dennis wrote and started to record, but never finished because new ideas would come along. These two songs are indicative of Denny's morning sessions where he (Dennis) sang all the parts and played many of the instruments. He would laydown all the vocal parts expecting to replace them with Beach Boy voices. The tracks were samples (not samplings) for the guys to use at a future time for what to sing. Future times never came. Support of Dennis from the group was superseded by their own self-absorption in their own creations. Dennis made the mistake of using the studio at the time when no one was around. Thus, he had all the time he wanted to record, but no personnel (except me) to work with. By the time the rest of the group came into the studio, Dennis was off at the beach with his tapes sitting on the shelf not being heard. Unfortunately Dennis never wrote things down, he used the tape recorder as his sheet music working out little segments of his songs. He taught himself much of what he was musically and the rest came by osmoses from his brothers. If he had been more involved with the group and stayed in the studio when they were all assembled there, I'm certain his talents would have become more integrated into the group, but as it was, Dennis remained the undiscovered Beach Boy talent until quite late. There's a lot of unproductive time spent in studios as other people do things or technical stuff has to be done. Dennis' restless nature did not give him the patience to wait around for things to happen. So he preferred to work alone at his own pace, but that independence is not the thing a group is made of. Dennis was not that much of a team player. Once he recorded his ideas, he turned them over to Carl or Brian to finish. He would pop in once in a while to see what had been done, but finishing something was not in his nature. Thus, you-all can project other group voices onto Dennis' sample tracks all you wish, but I know Dennis was quite capable of singing all the parts and some in the style of others. And, by the way, that vamp and flute noodling at the end of 'Live Again is not suppose to be part of the song. As does happen at times, the musicians are just grooving at the end -- venting out pent-up creative juices. Back in the days of their creation these songs never got to the point of mixdown, so this song, when it was mixed without guidance some forty hears after-the-fact, included the ending.
Good Listening, ~Stephen W. Desper

Thanks for sharing that info, Stephen!

[Stephen W. Desper]

Thanks for the info....Really fascinating....Had been wondering the circumstances regarding those songs....

isnt the "accepted history" though that carl and dennis had a disagreement about whether "wouldnt it be nice to live again" should be the last song or not and so dennis pulled it? Is that not true?

COMMENT to Needienthhay:  Yes, I've read that "accepted history" and history can spin itself as it wishes, but early-on Dennis announced to everyone that he was not going to be recording as much (like every morning) because he felt that he had contributed more than his share of songs to Sunflower and wanted other group members to contribute. From all the song lineups I saw or assembled or talked to Carl about, no mention was ever made of any disagreement over this song, nor did it appear on any list he was working on. I agree that it is an outstanding song and Dennis' performance is memorable, but that did not influence the situation at that time. To me this song has the most commercial potential for a hit single than any of the cuts on Surf's Up. However, as I stated before, it is not a Beach Boy song, it's a Dennis Wilson song -- at least in the stage of development it was left in. Dennis withdrew from his daily studio routine when production on Surf's Up started, so this song remained quiescent waiting on Beach Boy influence be added to its structure -- which never came. ~swd 

[filledeplage]

Thanks Mr. Desper...your posts are always a pleasure to read.   

[JasonK]

Mr. Desper,

If you happen to remember who played what instruments on 'Live Again and would be willing to share that information, I would greatly appreciate it.  Thanks for your informative posts.

[CenturyDeprived]

Just to give credit where's credit's due, it was CenturyDeprived who asked that question...

Stephen, what are your own personal thoughts about the Surf's Up outtakes, 4th of July + Wouldn't it Be Nice (to Live Again), in terms of how the album was affected by their absence?

...and was answered in the first paragraph. The second paragraph was the answer to Billy's and my query about the backing vocals: 

Who is the backing vocalist on WIBNTLA that sounds like Blondie? Did he guest on the song before officially joining the band?

I reckon it's Carl you're hearing. Seems only he and Brian sang backup. Maybe Mr. Desper can clarify. 

A small matter really. It has given us some wonderful insights. :=)

Thank you, john k, and thanks again to Stephen for the wonderful insight, which we are very lucky to have.

[Don Malcolm]

Stephen's comments--and like the rest of us I can hardly wait to read part two of his book--should remind us of just how much talent was in the Beach Boys, and how it had evolved by 1970-71. Carl's affinity for production had allowed him to take over for Brian, and search for ways to nudge the band closer to the mainstream of rock music that had emerged over the past three years. But it's also evident  that as quickly as Dennis' talents developed, those talents also quickly became something that had only a fleeting connection to the band--which is another reason why they weren't able to rally around Dennis' mid-70s material as a possible path through the labyrinth when their popularity returned and they had no studio LP ready to go in order to capitalize on it.

We know the band tried out "River Song" on a number of occasions in the 1973-74 time frame, but they couldn't find common ground to take it into the studio and pull it off as a group effort. Clearly what the group needed was a hit written by someone other than Brian (particularly at this time, when Brian was clearly not productive at all) but the window of opportunity seemed to close for them when ENDLESS SUMMER was released. Still, coming out with it at the end of the summer in '74 might have been their very best shot to create a bridge between old and new...even a single would have been better than three-and-a-half years of radio silence.

I really am curious about what kinds of discussions occurred in that time frame about following up HOLLAND. Carl's writing dried up; Dennis' was not championed; Brian was in his self-described "drugs and Danny Hutton" phase. Jack Reiley, fraudulent in a number of ways, had managed to get them to write songs and finish them in the studio--but he was out of the picture and Steve Love, bright as he was, had little or no affinity with the creative side of the operation.

[Sound of Free]

It's amazing that Fourth of July was a "scratch" vocal from Carl. Most singers could try 50 takes and not have one that good.

[MarcellaHasDirtyFeet]

I love Dennis' output, but when people have suggested that Dennis was, creatively speaking, the best way forward for the band, I always come back to: Dennis never had a hit. His solo material in the early 70s didn't do great, and neither did anything off of POB, and neither did any of his cuts for the band. Now, if he wasn't championing his own material or the band didn't feel like they had a place in a lot of his stuff, I suppose that would make sense. Despite the fact that nearly everything Dennis wrote has enriched my life, I'm not sure he ever wrote an "I Get Around" or a "Kokomo" or even "It's OK."

[CenturyDeprived]

I love Dennis' output, but when people have suggested that Dennis was, creatively speaking, the best way forward for the band, I always come back to: Dennis never had a hit. His solo material in the early 70s didn't do great, and neither did anything off of POB, and neither did any of his cuts for the band. Now, if he wasn't championing his own material or the band didn't feel like they had a place in a lot of his stuff, I suppose that would make sense. Despite the fact that nearly everything Dennis wrote has enriched my life, I'm not sure he ever wrote an "I Get Around" or a "Kokomo" or even "It's OK."

I think "School Girl" could have been a hit. It sounds very clearly to me like an *attempt* to write a very catchy vocal that could lead to some chart success. I think that was quite possibly in mind when that song was written.

A good question to ponder would be: which of Denny's songs might have intentionally been attempts to write a catchy hit? I could theoretically see "Slip On Through", "It's About Time", and "Forever" having been hits, if there had been a marketing push behind them. Were any of them written with possible hit potential in mind? Not quite sure.

I think it's safe to say that other deeper Denny tunes like "Cuddle Up" probably weren't in any way written as attempts to burn up the charts.

[Jay]

Both "Constant Companion" and "Under The Moonlight" could have been monster hits. Can you imagine driving down the road and hearing those songs on the radio? 

[JK]

Both "Constant Companion" and "Under The Moonlight" could have been monster hits. Can you imagine driving down the road and hearing those songs on the radio? 

I tried to interest "my" band in playing "UTM" but they rejected it. The fools!

[CenturyDeprived]

Both "Constant Companion" and "Under The Moonlight" could have been monster hits. Can you imagine driving down the road and hearing those songs on the radio? 

Agreed. There was definitely commercial potential on Bambu. And dare I say, this was probably not an accident. Some of those songs sound like they had modern crossover hit in mind.

[Stephen W. Desper]

COMMENT:  Perhaps (at least in later life) Dennis' nemesis was being a member of the Beach Boys. Just reflecting ... ~swd

[orange22]

I don't think many of us would disagree with that possibility Stephen. And how having creative freedom might have helped him fight his demons...it's hard to think about. Your insights paint a strong and vivid image in my mind, as if I can actually feel like I'm in the studio. From all of us, thank you for sharing.

[rasmus skotte]

There was a time window in 1974 where Dennis could/should have delivered a hit single for himself/Beach Boys. Did he deserve a co-writer's credit on this 'Billy Preston/Bruce Fischer'-song: "You Are So Beautiful" or not? Doesn't really matter if
ONLY he had added an extra verse of his own into HIS/BB' possible studio version! He could have delivered the song every bit as raspy and emotional as Joe Cocker!
The Preston-album The Kids & Me (included the song, but Billy P. didn't promote it as a single or anything like that) was released on may 5th, 1974. Joe Cocker's hit version was released 1/2 year later (in november 1974)!?

[Lonely Summer]

There was a time window in 1974 where Dennis could/should have delivered a hit single for himself/Beach Boys. Did he deserve a co-writer's credit on this 'Billy Preston/Bruce Fischer'-song: "You Are So Beautiful" or not? Doesn't really matter if
ONLY he had added an extra verse of his own into HIS/BB' possible studio version! He could have delivered the song every bit as raspy and emotional as Joe Cocker!
The Preston-album The Kids & Me (included the song, but Billy P. didn't promote it as a single or anything like that) was released on may 5th, 1974. Joe Cocker's hit version was released 1/2 year later (in november 1974)!?

IIRC, Preston's version did come out on a single, but it may have been after Cocker had a hit with it, or it may have been a b-side.
If River Song had been released as a single under the Beach Boys name, it could have made some chart impact. Likewise, I think Carl's Heaven would have been a bigger seller as a BB's record.

[petsite]

Stephen, there was talk at the time of Surf's Up that Dennis wanted Live Again (or maybe some other song of his) to close out the LP. When Carl refused, Dennis withdrew his compositions. I am guessing that this is not true.

[Dove Nested Towers]

I love Dennis' output, but when people have suggested that Dennis was, creatively speaking, the best way forward for the band, I always come back to: Dennis never had a hit. His solo material in the early 70s didn't do great, and neither did anything off of POB, and neither did any of his cuts for the band. Now, if he wasn't championing his own material or the band didn't feel like they had a place in a lot of his stuff, I suppose that would make sense. Despite the fact that nearly everything Dennis wrote has enriched my life, I'm not sure he ever wrote an "I Get Around" or a "Kokomo" or even "It's OK."

If "best way forward" is defined purely as hit-making, then none of the paths available to them would seem to have been particularly viable, at least with any consistency. If, however, it is defined as artistic and progressive, then a road driven down with Dennis (& Carl) at the wheel was undoubtedly their best option. Unfortunate that he wasn't a "team player" and didn't stick around in the afternoons to arrange the others' voices and parts\, and his contributions lay on the shelves unappreciated. Stephen, what about Rieley's recollections that envy of Dennis's work on the part of certain band members contributed to their not being embraced? I imagine that if something was thought by the others to be commercially viable, all other considerations would be secondary, but his stuff may not have been regarded that way. Thanks very much for your participation in this forum, it's invaluable.

[thorgil]

Yes, Denny had no I Get Around nor Kokomo under his belt. On the other hand, he had Little Bird, Slip on Through, Forever, Fallin' in Love, Sound of Free, Fourth of July, Cuddle Up, Baby Blue... He had POB and Bambu (which is released now, though late, and imho it's at least POB's equal... as much as Holy Man is River Song's equal).
He was severely subjected to the "you have a hit or you are nothing" attitude. Nobody will ever know how much he was damaged by that.

[Ian]

Well so was Brian. I recall on his 1988 appearance on letterman he even said that you measure a man's worth based on his position on the charts or something along those lines.

[HeyJude]

Brian even in later years did often talk about wanting a #1 hit, and in general of doing well on the charts. So he would often point out why that was a good thing, something he undoubtedly wanted.

But it never did and never has kept him from creating and putting product out. There were times he was more or less productive, but it didn't often seem to have any direct relation to chart activity (beyond not having a record deal because labels didn't think they could sell). So especially in his solo era of the last 15-20 years, he has continued to record album after album and song after song with very little in the way of hits.

So I think Brian has always realized the value of doing well on the charts (however antiquated his and other band members' view of how the charts work might have been or continues to be), but he never decided to curtail his productivity because he hadn't seen any hits.

[Lonely Summer]

Brian even in later years did often talk about wanting a #1 hit, and in general of doing well on the charts. So he would often point out why that was a good thing, something he undoubtedly wanted.

But it never did and never has kept him from creating and putting product out. There were times he was more or less productive, but it didn't often seem to have any direct relation to chart activity (beyond not having a record deal because labels didn't think they could sell). So especially in his solo era of the last 15-20 years, he has continued to record album after album and song after song with very little in the way of hits.

So I think Brian has always realized the value of doing well on the charts (however antiquated his and other band members' view of how the charts work might have been or continues to be), but he never decided to curtail his productivity because he hadn't seen any hits.

Well, in Brian's case, he always has people pushing him to do more recording. Joe Thomas thought Imagination was going to be a big hit at A/C radio; Your Imagination did do pretty well on the A/C chart, but that didn't translate to strong sales for the album. Certainly it must occur to Brian or Mike that their day as hit makers is long past; I think the one real shot Brian had commercially was with the 1988 album. It fit in more with what was happening in pop radio than anything he has done since.