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Author Topic: The New Wave Appreciation Thread  (Read 19454 times)
Chris D.
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« Reply #50 on: January 09, 2006, 04:42:44 PM »

I avoided this thread since I don't find much interesting with genres, but...

Why won't people call Talking Heads punk?  They moved on fast, but their demo tape is punk to me and a f*** of a lot better than 77 and More Songs, for the most part.  Anyway...I agree, New Wave is mostly a marketing thing, and it seems like a lot of the favored "new wave" bands, like Talking Heads, were around before that was used.  So why not call it punk?  It's like when people call Television new wave.  They started punk!  They started CBGB!  People want punk to be some really rigid thing, keep it open and interesting.
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Boxer Monkey
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« Reply #51 on: January 09, 2006, 04:52:58 PM »

Couldn't agree more. The Heads are punk of the first -- OK, maybe second -- order. (By demos you mean the "Sugar on My Tongue" stuff or something else?)

And what dumb f*** would call Television "New Wave"?
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Chris D.
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« Reply #52 on: January 09, 2006, 04:58:16 PM »

Couldn't agree more. The Heads are punk of the first -- OK, maybe second -- order. (By demos you mean the "Sugar on My Tongue" stuff or something else?)

Yeah, "Sugar on My Tongue," "I Wanna Live," "Psycho Killer," "Book I Read," "I'm Not in Love," "Thank You for Sending Me an Angel," and whatever else is on that tape from 75.  My bootleg is at home and I forget the rest.  But I think the early three piece sound was perfect for their first two albums.  They only needed Jerry and Eno once they hit Remain in Light.

Quote
And what dumb foda would call Television "New Wave"?

Totally agree, but I've seen people say that.  Puzzles me too.  The new punk fan thinks punk is the Ramones, but the Ramones were just one part of the game.
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I. Spaceman
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« Reply #53 on: January 09, 2006, 04:58:40 PM »

Yes, the Heads started punk, no doubt.
BUT, again, if you accept New Wave as a genre, they crossed over. Remain In Light is certainly not a punk album, and Fear Of Music isn't either.
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Chris D.
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« Reply #54 on: January 09, 2006, 05:15:25 PM »

Yes, the Heads started punk, no doubt.
BUT, again, if you accept New Wave as a genre, they crossed over. Remain In Light is certainly not a punk album, and Fear Of Music isn't either.

I agree.  They went through a short punk phase (recording-wise), then made the leap, like Lydon from the Sex Pistols to PiL, or the Clash with London Calling, etc., etc.  I don't think New Wave accurately describes all their music from 79 on, at all.
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« Reply #55 on: January 09, 2006, 05:46:18 PM »

I think there is a visual problem with calling Talking Heads a punk band. I mean - look at them, not a leather jacket between them! They used acoustic guitars, they had interesting lyrics. Or maybe this is just a semantic arguement between a UK definition of punk and a US one. In the UK you could never get away with caling them a punk band because for us, punk meant The Pistols, The Clash and the Damned. Was Patti Smith punk? The Ramones certainly were, Televsion with Richard Hell were, but were they without him? US yes, UK.....Huh But Talking Heads may well have been responsble for the whole attempt to come up with a new tag as they clearly did not fit with what became in the Pistols wake a tag that the US record companies did not want.
And what were Blondie? (Actually they were a pop group- but they did have short hair and skinny ties....).
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I. Spaceman
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« Reply #56 on: January 09, 2006, 05:48:12 PM »

Blondie's first two are definitely Punk.
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Mark A. Moore
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« Reply #57 on: January 09, 2006, 05:50:58 PM »

The Producers (from Atlanta) straddled the New Wave / Power Pop line . . . Great stuff, and their first album in 1981 was dedicated to John Lennon.

No skinny ties . . . but the band's attire on that first album was more a look ahead to Miami Vice (in pastels).

M.

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Chris D.
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« Reply #58 on: January 09, 2006, 06:01:53 PM »

I think there is a visual problem with calling Talking Heads a punk band. I mean - look at them, not a leather jacket between them! They used acoustic guitars, they had interesting lyrics. Or maybe this is just a semantic arguement between a UK definition of punk and a US one. In the UK you could never get away with caling them a punk band because for us, punk meant The Pistols, The Clash and the Damned. Was Patti Smith punk? The Ramones certainly were, Televsion with Richard Hell were, but were they without him? US yes, UK.....Huh But Talking Heads may well have been responsble for the whole attempt to come up with a new tag as they clearly did not fit with what became in the Pistols wake a tag that the US record companies did not want.
And what were Blondie? (Actually they were a pop group- but they did have short hair and skinny ties....).

Well, that's kind of what I'm complaining about -- making punk too narrow.  The early Talking Heads stuff is as punk to me as anything else, despite how they dressed or if they used acoustic guitars.  The look is more of a marketing angle.  It gets attention.  That makes perfect sense, but I don't think it's fair to say you need a leather jacket in the band to be punk.  Maybe I'm wrong since I was only born in 1983, but I feel like at the time (74-77 at least) a lot of stuff was considered punk, such as Talking Heads in the relatively early CBGB days.  But after the fact the whole definition has changed to only include a few bands (Ramones, Sex Pistols) and the groups that came pretty much directly from them.  It's like saying groups like the Stones, Kinks, or Who aren't really rock just because the Beatles helped push the way for them.  Or that none of them are because we already had Buddy Holly, Elvis, Chuck Berry, etc.
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Boxer Monkey
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« Reply #59 on: January 09, 2006, 06:08:12 PM »

Short-hand labels can never, ever do justice to music. But Television circa "Double Exposure" (the Hell-era boot) certainly fit into the more "narrow" def. of "punk" than they would later. And even Dee Dee Ramone said he never considered Verlaine et al "punk" in the classic sense -- to him, they were "beatniks."

Richard Hell, tho is THE classic punk. Without him, you got nothin'.
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Chris D.
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« Reply #60 on: January 09, 2006, 06:13:11 PM »

Short-hand labels can never, ever do justice to music. But Television circa "Double Exposure" (the Hell-era boot) certainly fit into the more "narrow" def. of "punk" than they would later. And even Dee Dee Ramone said he never considered Verlaine et al "punk" in the classic sense -- to him, they were "beatniks."

Richard Hell, tho is THE classic punk. Without him, you got nothin'.

Nice post.  I like Dee Dee's opinion.  Bootlegs like Double Exposure and Poor Circulation definitely show off their punk roots.
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Boxer Monkey
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« Reply #61 on: January 09, 2006, 06:23:58 PM »

Yeah! Television with distorted guitars! Hard to believe, but it actually HAPPENED. And would continue to in concert, where they were almost always at odds with what was on their records. (LLoyd, in particular, loved to crank it up.)
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Chris D.
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« Reply #62 on: January 09, 2006, 07:21:52 PM »

Richard Lloyd is an awesome player and a really sweet guy.  I used to email him a bit.  What do you make of Peter Laughner's (supposed) membership in Television, boxer?  Richard Lloyd denied this when I asked him on his website (it's in the Q&A section), but Clinton Heylin had to get it from somewhere.  Verlaine?  Maybe that version of Television just had a few practices.
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Boxer Monkey
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« Reply #63 on: January 09, 2006, 07:37:33 PM »

Lloyd is a great guy. Met him after the RFTT show in Dallas, and he fielded a few questions from me and seemed genuinely flattered when I told him he's my fave guitarist, which was true then and remains so. (He also laughingly dismissed my favorite of his solos -- on Matthew Sweet's "Falling" -- as "just noise!")

Clinton Heylin ... I wouldn't take that guy's word as gospel truth on anything. I don't have his book in front of me, but there are a lot of errors in it I could point out if I did. (Anybody who writes a book on punk that dismisses "Raw Power" out of hand is suspect to me, though.) As for Peter Laughner (pronounced LOCK-ner, btw) being in TV, your guess is as good as mine, or, for that matter, Lloyd's probably. I doubt that he, being out of the band at the time, would even know the full story. But I wouldn't doubt that Laughner rehearsed with TV, although given Verlaine's issues with Richard Hell, I think it's a pretty logical assumption that Verlaine wouldn't be all that willing to allow another such combustible personality into HIS band. Think about it.
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Chris D.
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« Reply #64 on: January 09, 2006, 07:49:11 PM »

If you remember Heylin's other mistakes, let me know.

You're probably right about Laughner in TV.  Verlaine didn't seem to like any strong personalities (Eno) touching his music, as you said.
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I. Spaceman
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« Reply #65 on: January 09, 2006, 07:49:54 PM »

Heylin's an idiot, plain and simple. What good's knowledge if you don't know what to do with it?
His Dylan book is sh*te too.
Bootleg is the only readable thing he's written IMO.
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Chris D.
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« Reply #66 on: January 09, 2006, 07:52:26 PM »

Haha, good.  My mom got me Bootleg instead of the PiL book by accident, for Christmas.  Is the PiL one worth a damn?  I figure all the good information from it is probably on Fodderstompf.com.
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I. Spaceman
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« Reply #67 on: January 09, 2006, 07:58:00 PM »

Haven't read the PiL but I'm sure it's worth it for historical stuff.
BTW, did you know about the Tom Snyder DVD set coming out that includes the classic PiL appearance on it?
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Chris D.
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« Reply #68 on: January 09, 2006, 08:02:11 PM »

Haven't read the PiL but I'm sure it's worth it for historical stuff.
BTW, did you know about the Tom Snyder DVD set coming out that includes the classic PiL appearance on it?

YES!!!!  I am psyched!  I'd definitely buy it just for that, though it looks like there will be other cool stuff (Iggy).

There really needs to be a multiple-disc PiL DVD.  They have to have a lot in the can since all they did was brag about the movie they were "making" in the late 70s or so.  They could put on the American Bandstand appearance, the "Riot Show" from New York, promo videos, TV stuff.
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I. Spaceman
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« Reply #69 on: January 09, 2006, 08:09:14 PM »

Have you seen that before? If not, you're gonna be blown away. My parents were big Snyder and punk fans, so I got to see all those when they were on originally. The Iggy was the first time I had ever seen him and it's amazing, he does Dog Food and I'm Bored.
The Plasmatics are great there, too. But the PiL is well worth the price alone.
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Chris D.
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« Reply #70 on: January 09, 2006, 08:11:57 PM »

I haven't seen any of it, Ian.  The closest I've come is reading a transcript of the Tom Snyder thing with some photos.  "I'm Bored" is a sweet song.  I love the version from The Old Grey Whistle Test.  I have Raw Power on now, actually.  "All the pretty girls really look the same."
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I. Spaceman
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« Reply #71 on: January 09, 2006, 08:28:01 PM »

Quote
"All the pretty girls really look the same."

Especially with a plastic bag over their heads!
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Chris D.
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« Reply #72 on: January 09, 2006, 08:29:37 PM »

And I never tire of drawing your face on that bag.
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« Reply #73 on: January 10, 2006, 04:29:50 AM »

"Punk ain't no religious cult- Punk means thinking for yourself"
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Chance
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« Reply #74 on: January 10, 2006, 05:05:46 AM »

Are the Clash on the Snyder DVD, too? Hardly a groundbreaking appearance, but hell, the Clash are the Clash, I'll take 'em anyway you wanna serve 'em. What's the theme of the release, a general overview of the entiretly of Snyder's show, or does it focus primarily on musicians?

I'd love a PiL DVD as Chris describes. Same goes for the Velvet Underground, there are a bunch of scattered little underground films from the sixties featuring the band that I'm sure people would jump on given the chance. Joy Division too, they've got nothing on the shelves and I think it would be so easy to put together something great.
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