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Author Topic: What did Bruce and Jack disagree over?  (Read 34147 times)
Ian
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« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2016, 01:39:28 PM »

Here is the paragraph from my book about this subject:
Bruce told the BBC in early 1974 that on “the last tour I was on, I kind of felt strange because the group had gotten kind of clubby again.  You had two guys, Mike and Al, who were deeply involved in meditation, you had Carl and Ricky that were kind of tight, you had Blondie who was kind of alone and Dennis (who) wasn’t quite sure of his role because he had an accident with his hand and he couldn’t play drums for a long time and he was trying to get used to the role of finally singing.  And so the group kind of felt a little uncomfortable with each other and we just kind of decided that it would be better to not play together and feel comfortable.” The Beach Boys had their own take on Bruce’s departure.  Brian told Record World in June 1973 that Bruce “got into a horrible fight with Jack Rieley. Some dispute and they got into a horrible fight and the next day he was gone.” Mike opined to Val Mabbs of Record Mirror that Bruce “left because he wasn’t too happy about things.  It was decided that because of a couple of feelings harbored by different members of the group and the way things went with Bruce developing a solo career it made it more or less an uncompromising situation.” Dennis told Martin Lewis of NME that “musically we didn’t click…appreciate each other, so one day we both said OK, that’s it.  He’s a good guy but he was writing stuff for a solo artist…we’re a band.” Chip Rachlin noted, “Bruce didn’t really have a buddy in the group and he was sort of the odd man out.  He didn’t get along with Jack Rieley and he could be a little meddlesome.”
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« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2016, 04:42:35 PM »

Here is the paragraph from my book about this subject:
Bruce told the BBC in early 1974 that on “the last tour I was on, I kind of felt strange because the group had gotten kind of clubby again.  You had two guys, Mike and Al, who were deeply involved in meditation, you had Carl and Ricky that were kind of tight, you had Blondie who was kind of alone and Dennis (who) wasn’t quite sure of his role because he had an accident with his hand and he couldn’t play drums for a long time and he was trying to get used to the role of finally singing.  And so the group kind of felt a little uncomfortable with each other and we just kind of decided that it would be better to not play together and feel comfortable.” The Beach Boys had their own take on Bruce’s departure.  Brian told Record World in June 1973 that Bruce “got into a horrible fight with Jack Rieley. Some dispute and they got into a horrible fight and the next day he was gone.” Mike opined to Val Mabbs of Record Mirror that Bruce “left because he wasn’t too happy about things.  It was decided that because of a couple of feelings harbored by different members of the group and the way things went with Bruce developing a solo career it made it more or less an uncompromising situation.” Dennis told Martin Lewis of NME that “musically we didn’t click…appreciate each other, so one day we both said OK, that’s it.  He’s a good guy but he was writing stuff for a solo artist…we’re a band.” Chip Rachlin noted, “Bruce didn’t really have a buddy in the group and he was sort of the odd man out.  He didn’t get along with Jack Rieley and he could be a little meddlesome.”

Very interesting, its still hard for me to imagine the guy that had just written Disney Girls getting into a horrible fight  LOL thanks for the resource much appreciated!
« Last Edit: June 06, 2016, 06:07:53 PM by SurferDownUnder » Logged
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« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2016, 05:05:26 PM »


Mike opined to Val Mabbs of Record Mirror that Bruce “left because he wasn’t too happy about things.  It was decided that because of a couple of feelings harbored by different members of the group and the way things went with Bruce developing a solo career it made it more or less an uncompromising situation.”

It's interesting how Bruce "going solo" might have been a contributing factor to him leaving and/or feuding with Jack. Not that the going solo thing being a cause of tension would be a unique case to this band, but there may be possible parallels to the strife Denny encountered from within the band (not sure if it was coming from more than just Mike) when Denny himself wanted to do a solo tour.

I wonder if it was discussed if Bruce would potentially have a solo career in tandem to being in the band at the same time. I can also see how the political mindset of a guy writing Disney Girls (which I love, by the way) could be at complete odds with someone pushing the band in a vastly more left-leaning political direction.
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« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2016, 06:10:05 PM »


Mike opined to Val Mabbs of Record Mirror that Bruce “left because he wasn’t too happy about things.  It was decided that because of a couple of feelings harbored by different members of the group and the way things went with Bruce developing a solo career it made it more or less an uncompromising situation.”

It's interesting how Bruce "going solo" might have been a contributing factor to him leaving and/or feuding with Jack. Not that the going solo thing being a cause of tension would be a unique case to this band, but there may be possible parallels to the strife Denny encountered from within the band (not sure if it was coming from more than just Mike) when Denny himself wanted to do a solo tour.

I wonder if it was discussed if Bruce would potentially have a solo career in tandem to being in the band at the same time. I can also see how the political mindset of a guy writing Disney Girls (which I love, by the way) could be at complete odds with someone pushing the band in a vastly more left-leaning political direction.

Do you think Bruce has always been a country-club "Obama is an asshole" bring back the 50's kind of guy? Seems so strange that he could be enveloped by the culture going on around him and not alter those opinions at all  Shocked
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« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2016, 10:03:47 PM »

didn't Reilley claim that Bruce disagreed with and talked sh*t about the Wilsons?

not surprising, since he continues doing it to this day.
Where has he continued doing it to this day, he seems very complimentary of all three Wilson brothers in interviews and shows I've been to.

Bruce is a loose cannon. perhaps a bipolar or split personality with a lifelong sense of entitlement. some fans and interviewers have pleasant interactions with him, while others report some of the rudest most awkward encounters of their lives. one fan describes a possibly inebriated Bruce in a hotel after a show, declaring the Beach Boys were a better band without Carl. and he's most certainly made disparaging remarks about Brian in recent years. here's just one example:

http://www.tcpalm.com/entertainment/beach-boy-bruce-johnston-you-cant-tell-me-aging-kills-your-spirit-ep-404001882-332209772.html
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« Reply #30 on: June 06, 2016, 10:58:10 PM »

didn't Reilley claim that Bruce disagreed with and talked sh*t about the Wilsons?

not surprising, since he continues doing it to this day.
Where has he continued doing it to this day, he seems very complimentary of all three Wilson brothers in interviews and shows I've been to.

Bruce is a loose cannon. perhaps a bipolar or split personality with a lifelong sense of entitlement. some fans and interviewers have pleasant interactions with him, while others report some of the rudest most awkward encounters of their lives. one fan describes a possibly inebriated Bruce in a hotel after a show, declaring the Beach Boys were a better band without Carl. and he's most certainly made disparaging remarks about Brian in recent years. here's just one example:

http://www.tcpalm.com/entertainment/beach-boy-bruce-johnston-you-cant-tell-me-aging-kills-your-spirit-ep-404001882-332209772.html

What's the hotel story? Also I'm not sure that that article shows Bruce disparaging Brian but rather just not thinking too clearly about his wording, he has been a big supporter of Brian in interviews before...
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« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2016, 02:06:15 AM »


Mike opined to Val Mabbs of Record Mirror that Bruce “left because he wasn’t too happy about things.  It was decided that because of a couple of feelings harbored by different members of the group and the way things went with Bruce developing a solo career it made it more or less an uncompromising situation.”

It's interesting how Bruce "going solo" might have been a contributing factor to him leaving and/or feuding with Jack. Not that the going solo thing being a cause of tension would be a unique case to this band, but there may be possible parallels to the strife Denny encountered from within the band (not sure if it was coming from more than just Mike) when Denny himself wanted to do a solo tour.

I wonder if it was discussed if Bruce would potentially have a solo career in tandem to being in the band at the same time. I can also see how the political mindset of a guy writing Disney Girls (which I love, by the way) could be at complete odds with someone pushing the band in a vastly more left-leaning political direction.

Do you think Bruce has always been a country-club "Obama is an asshole" bring back the 50's kind of guy? Seems so strange that he could be enveloped by the culture going on around him and not alter those opinions at all  Shocked

There's quotes from him in the '50 sides of the Beach Boys' books about being a conservative guy and writing Disney Girls as a response to seeing kids smoking spliffs at their shows.  I suppose that's about drugs and lifestyle, rather than strictly politics, but it seems he wasn't much into the counterculture of the time.

Other than that, wasn't the plan to replace Bruce with Billy Hinsche from 1969?
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« Reply #32 on: June 07, 2016, 04:44:43 AM »

   Every now and then one can sense some genuine warmth between Dennis and Bruce, maybe Brian and Bruce. But Carl and Bruce? Never. When was the last time you heard Bruce mention Carl Wilson in an interview?
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« Reply #33 on: June 07, 2016, 05:20:55 AM »


Mike opined to Val Mabbs of Record Mirror that Bruce “left because he wasn’t too happy about things.  It was decided that because of a couple of feelings harbored by different members of the group and the way things went with Bruce developing a solo career it made it more or less an uncompromising situation.”

It's interesting how Bruce "going solo" might have been a contributing factor to him leaving and/or feuding with Jack. Not that the going solo thing being a cause of tension would be a unique case to this band, but there may be possible parallels to the strife Denny encountered from within the band (not sure if it was coming from more than just Mike) when Denny himself wanted to do a solo tour.

I wonder if it was discussed if Bruce would potentially have a solo career in tandem to being in the band at the same time. I can also see how the political mindset of a guy writing Disney Girls (which I love, by the way) could be at complete odds with someone pushing the band in a vastly more left-leaning political direction.

Do you think Bruce has always been a country-club "Obama is an asshole" bring back the 50's kind of guy? Seems so strange that he could be enveloped by the culture going on around him and not alter those opinions at all  Shocked

There's a quote from Bruce - in the Granata book, I think - in which he pines for the days of turning up to the recording studio in a nice sweater...

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« Reply #34 on: June 07, 2016, 06:51:29 AM »

   Every now and then one can sense some genuine warmth between Dennis and Bruce, maybe Brian and Bruce. But Carl and Bruce? Never. When was the last time you heard Bruce mention Carl Wilson in an interview?

I get this, too
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« Reply #35 on: June 07, 2016, 06:56:43 AM »

While Bruce was a team player, in the first stint with the bbs he did write basically tunes for him to perform with minimum involvement from the other bbs-nearest faraway place, tears in the morning, etc. perhaps the bbs sensed this. There is that 1970 concert review where the reviewer suggests the other bbs were grumbling when Bruce shooed them offstage so he could do his solo spot
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« Reply #36 on: June 07, 2016, 07:01:48 AM »

I seem to remember a quote or interview from Bruce were he said he had issues with Jack's truthiness, let's say.  I seem to remember him giving Jack's resume as an example and saying something like he checked and the Peabody Award people (or whoever) never heard of the guy or something.  Anybody else remember something like that?
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« Reply #37 on: June 07, 2016, 07:03:15 AM »

While Bruce was a team player, in the first stint with the bbs he did write basically tunes for him to perform with minimum involvement from the other bbs-nearest faraway place, tears in the morning, etc. perhaps the bbs sensed this. There is that 1970 concert review where the reviewer suggests the other bbs were grumbling when Bruce shooed them offstage so he could do his solo spot

I can see something like that causing tension within any band, especially as it played out in front of a paying audience.
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« Reply #38 on: June 07, 2016, 07:23:43 AM »

didn't Reilley claim that Bruce disagreed with and talked sh*t about the Wilsons?

not surprising, since he continues doing it to this day.
Where has he continued doing it to this day, he seems very complimentary of all three Wilson brothers in interviews and shows I've been to.

Bruce is a loose cannon. perhaps a bipolar or split personality with a lifelong sense of entitlement. some fans and interviewers have pleasant interactions with him, while others report some of the rudest most awkward encounters of their lives. one fan describes a possibly inebriated Bruce in a hotel after a show, declaring the Beach Boys were a better band without Carl. and he's most certainly made disparaging remarks about Brian in recent years. here's just one example:

http://www.tcpalm.com/entertainment/beach-boy-bruce-johnston-you-cant-tell-me-aging-kills-your-spirit-ep-404001882-332209772.html

I've read a myriad of "fan encounter" stories, in addition to of course interviewer/journalist encounters, and by leaps and bounds most of the weird/tense/awkward/terse moments come out of stories involving Bruce.

Mike is pretty uniformly excellent with fans. Brian might sometimes not offer a lot of energy (sometimes he does), but I haven't ever heard of him actually being mean to fans or expressing anything negative *towards* fans. Al is much like Mike in being good with fans, and if anything will sometimes offer an even more personalized, less scripted interaction.

Bruce is only consistent in that he is inconsistent. In addition to very wide-ranging attitudes in fan interactions, the same seems to hold true in interviews and online discussions. He'll be almost fawningly over-effusive in praising Brian, and then say something more catty. There are some interesting (and funny) stories in the Jon Stebbins/David Marks book about Dave's interaction with Bruce in 1971, and Dave's description of Bruce back then is eerily very similar to stories you still hear about Bruce now as far as his personality.

So to sort of get towards answering the question raised in a previous post about whether Bruce was more liberal or more willing to soak in some of the ideas of that late 60s/early 70s era, it seems as though his personality was pretty similar back then. I'm guessing he skewed pretty conservative back then even (Bruce may admit that "Disney Girls" is a very idealized concept, but even having *that* as your ideal throwback might speak to one's outlook), and certainly in more recent decades from the 80s onward, there has been plenty of room to grow more conservative.

Sense of entitlement is a good way to put it, if in no other area than his place in the band. I remember reading an interview with Bruce back in 2012 where he kind of lightly poked at Brian's "guys" in the reunion band, suggesting they weren't used to such a rigorous touring scheduled like those done by Mike's band, and I remember thinking that was kind of rich coming from the guy who was probably pulling the least weight in that entire huge band. I guess he doesn't often have this experience in relation to his place in the live touring band:



Let me be very clear that I don't doubt Bruce had and has the musical and vocal ability to play a larger role in the band. I recall thinking all the way back in the early 80s that Bruce weirdly didn't seem to even be interested in a lead vocal turn all the time. He has even sometimes expressed some reasons for taking a backseat at the live shows. Perhaps there's some validity to his strategy in this regard, but it also means whenever he criticizes someone else, or espouses various political or economical ideals, his job description might come to mind for some observers.

But seriously, Bruce is if nothing else a more fascinating, weird character than perhaps a lot of fans thought back in the day. I'm quite curious to know more about his deal, however much I agree or disagree with it.
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« Reply #39 on: June 07, 2016, 07:31:04 AM »

I seem to remember a quote or interview from Bruce were he said he had issues with Jack's truthiness, let's say.  I seem to remember him giving Jack's resume as an example and saying something like the he checked and the Peabody Award people (or whoever) never heard of the guy or something.  Anybody else remember something like that?

Yep, the Politzer Prize incident and other past (alleged) employment experiences  - Also I believe (don't know where I read it, sorry if i'm off the mark) Bruce questioned Jack's sexuality
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« Reply #40 on: June 07, 2016, 08:07:59 AM »

I find the "Sultan of Syrup" to be a boring goldbricker much like his notorious other half. Yeah, the money's good, but doing the same thing night after night, year after year shows me nothing but an embarrassing stage presence who has little to do beyond showing up.
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« Reply #41 on: June 07, 2016, 08:16:46 AM »

Not pointing my finger at Bruce (or anyone specifically), but wasn't there some weird stuff that went on where some BB member(s) were not thrilled when they got wind of Jack's sexuality? I know I recall reading something to this effect, without a lot of details. I could see a relationship could be adversely affected if a given band member (or multiple ones) had a less than tolerant reaction. And yes, I'm mindful of this being 4+ decades ago.
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« Reply #42 on: June 07, 2016, 08:29:53 AM »

It would not be difficult to understand that Jack's sexuality was most likely questioned by right winger, good ol' boys Br00th and myKe. One's an Obama basher and the other's a Trump luHver.
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« Reply #43 on: June 07, 2016, 08:41:35 AM »

It would not be difficult to understand that Jack's sexuality was most likely questioned by right winger, good ol' boys Br00th and myKe. One's an Obama basher and the other's a Trump luHver.
OSD - it was later discovered that he had an "inflated resume."  It shows a tendency towards falsehood.  He "faked it to make it" and ultimately it was found out. 

That does not translate to homophobic. 
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« Reply #44 on: June 07, 2016, 08:47:10 AM »

It would not be difficult to understand that Jack's sexuality was most likely questioned by right winger, good ol' boys Br00th and myKe. One's an Obama basher and the other's a Trump luHver.
OSD - it was later discovered that he had an "inflated resume."  It shows a tendency towards falsehood.  He "faked it to make it" and ultimately it was found out.  

That does not translate to homophobic.  

Whether any of the accusations are true or worth dredging up here, the issue with Rieley's "inflated resume" versus any other prejudice on the part of any members have been presented as two *separate* issues in this discussion.

Nobody is conflating the two in this thread as far as I can tell.

It's totally possible a band member (or members) could have taken issue with an "inflated resume" and also separately had some other non-business-related prejudice. It's totally possible an observer could find the former a valid gripe with Rieley and find the latter disagreeable, lamentable, and not a valid gripe or issue whatsoever. 
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« Reply #45 on: June 07, 2016, 08:51:03 AM »

Aren't most resumes "inflated"? Huh
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« Reply #46 on: June 07, 2016, 08:53:11 AM »

I seem to remember a quote or interview from Bruce were he said he had issues with Jack's truthiness, let's say.  I seem to remember him giving Jack's resume as an example and saying something like the he checked and the Peabody Award people (or whoever) never heard of the guy or something.  Anybody else remember something like that?

Yep, the Politzer Prize incident and other past (alleged) employment experiences  - Also I believe (don't know where I read it, sorry if i'm off the mark) Bruce questioned Jack's sexuality

I have not heard that one Rob, do you (or anyone) remember the source by any chance.  Not that the opinion would be shocking for back in that day.
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« Reply #47 on: June 07, 2016, 09:14:45 AM »

It would not be difficult to understand that Jack's sexuality was most likely questioned by right winger, good ol' boys Br00th and myKe. One's an Obama basher and the other's a Trump luHver.
OSD - it was later discovered that he had an "inflated resume."  It shows a tendency towards falsehood.  He "faked it to make it" and ultimately it was found out.  

That does not translate to homophobic.  

I agree that any political differences that Bruce (or any of the Boys) may have had with Jack do not necessarily in any way, shape, or form automatically translate to homophobia. I'm certainly not quick to make that judgment based on current political affiliations, and OSD shouldn't be either. That said, I do recall reading something that alluded to potential homophobia from within the band, which of course, in theory could even have come from a band member(s) who was in all other ways politically liberal. Homophobia and political leanings are not mutually exclusive. I sincerely hope the homophobia that I recall reading about is a completely baseless and false statement, though if it is true, none of us can simply will it not to be true.

For whatever it's worth (and perhaps it completely says nothing), I was surprised that Mike didn't post a peep about Jack's passing on social media, compared with Brian (who did)... especially considering how much Jack was a big part of turning around the band's fortunes, and especially considering that many non BB-related people, like Muhammad Ali, get long, detailed posts by Mike when they passed. I took that to mean that there was some very irreparably bad blood between Mike and Jack.
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« Reply #48 on: June 07, 2016, 09:23:03 AM »

I seem to remember a quote or interview from Bruce were he said he had issues with Jack's truthiness, let's say.  I seem to remember him giving Jack's resume as an example and saying something like the he checked and the Peabody Award people (or whoever) never heard of the guy or something.  Anybody else remember something like that?

Yep, the Politzer Prize incident and other past (alleged) employment experiences  - Also I believe (don't know where I read it, sorry if i'm off the mark) Bruce questioned Jack's sexuality

I have not heard that one Rob, do you (or anyone) remember the source by any chance.  Not that the opinion would be shocking for back in that day.

True, though Bruce worked with Curt Becher too.
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« Reply #49 on: June 07, 2016, 09:25:42 AM »

It would not be difficult to understand that Jack's sexuality was most likely questioned by right winger, good ol' boys Br00th and myKe. One's an Obama basher and the other's a Trump luHver.
OSD - it was later discovered that he had an "inflated resume."  It shows a tendency towards falsehood.  He "faked it to make it" and ultimately it was found out. 

That does not translate to homophobic. 

I agree that any political differences that Bruce (or any of the Boys) may have had with Jack do not necessarily in any way, shape, or form automatically translate to homophobia. I'm certainly not quick to make that judgment based on current political affiliations, and OSD shouldn't be either. That said, I do recall reading something that alluded to potential homophobia from within the band, which of course, in theory could also have come from a band member(s) who was in all other ways politically liberal. I have no idea, that's why I'm asking. I sincerely hope the homophobia that I recall reading about is a completely baseless and false statement, though if it is true, none of us can simply will it not to be true.

For whatever it's worth (and perhaps it completely says nothing), I was surprised that Mike didn't post a peep about Jack's passing on social media, compared with Brian (who did)... especially considering how much Jack was a big part of turning around the band's fortunes, and especially considering that many non BB-related people, like Muhammad Ali, get long, detailed posts by Mike when they passed. I took that to mean that there was some very irreparably bad blood between Mike and Jack.

1 + 1 =2, right? Of course there was bad blood. Jack and Brian wrote music *together*, presumably not with myKe. Carl and Jack did the same w/o myKe. mYke's limitless ego had to endure yet another *attack* from another competitor who was not a blood relative. What a pathetic, small man.
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