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Author Topic: CONCERT: National Memorial Day Concert for 2016 with The Beach Boys  (Read 21097 times)
♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇
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« Reply #50 on: June 01, 2016, 02:25:25 PM »

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But for me, no matter how good the digital is, no matter how high the sample rate is, it still is a sample and I hear it – or rather, I don’t hear it – I don’t hear the complete waveform. I don’t know how to explain it. Maybe I can’t hear a good algorithm version or slight amount of Autotune because digital all sounds like crap to me (like crap compared to analog, that is). Perhaps I have not developed the ability to distinguish one type of digital distortion for another. I prefer analog. At least in analog the distortions are musically related, and in some cases can improve the musicality of the waveform.

Ahhh...that would make sense. I've been working in the digital realm for almost 20 years now, and my ears are like Banana & Louie when it comes to that LOL
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« Reply #51 on: June 01, 2016, 02:28:53 PM »

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Hi Stephen, I will admit that I am just trusting my ears, which aren't infallible. But I think that on Knebworth, I'm hearing some warbling pitch-correction artifacts which I was assuming was applied at a late stage in post-production before the CD was released
Although auto tune wasn't released before 1996, and the concert was recorded in 1980...remember that the cd/dvd didn't get officially released until the early 2000s....

And yes, I do hear it too.


COMMENT:  You may be right as I have not heard the CD. I have an LP reference copy.  The CD/DVD may have been re-done with Autotune. Actually I think I do have the DVD somewhere, just never listened that closely to it. I'm stuck in analog.  ~swd
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« Reply #52 on: June 01, 2016, 02:48:48 PM »

Yeah, you should probably check it out...won't have it playing too long, I'm sure.  Drives me nuts....I *hate* that sound on a live performance.
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« Reply #53 on: June 01, 2016, 03:11:27 PM »

Yeah, you should probably check it out...won't have it playing too long, I'm sure.  Drives me nuts....I *hate* that sound on a live performance.
COMMENT to ♩♬ Billy C ♯♫♩ :  Someone of your talent should have no problem setting up the comparison I cited in post #48 on page two of this thread. Set up only takes a few minutes, but it is most telling. Listen to both in Mono. Let me know what you hear.

Has technology brought us forward or backward?  I did that entire '69 show by myself and one stagehand set the stage. I even did the monitor mix too. How many technicians did it take to do the 2016 version with how many add-on do-dads and such. We have come to place such importance on the technical that we have lost the music. Like that mixer in the Mike & Bruce show I attended, our heads are buried in the silicon sand of digital chips so far that we are missing reality -- as I see many people these days who are going through life, their life, lost in a smartphone screen's image, while the real substance of life passes by, never to be gained again.
~swd
« Last Edit: June 01, 2016, 03:25:13 PM by Stephen W. Desper » Logged
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« Reply #54 on: June 01, 2016, 03:15:08 PM »

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Someone of your talent should have no problem setting up the comparison I cited in post #48 on page two of this thread. Set up only takes a few minutes, but it is most telling. Let me know what you hear.

Will do when I get home...interested in hearing it!
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« Reply #55 on: June 01, 2016, 03:25:26 PM »

Yeah, you should probably check it out...won't have it playing too long, I'm sure.  Drives me nuts....I *hate* that sound on a live performance.
COMMENT to ♩♬ Billy C ♯♫♩ :  Someone of your talent should have no problem setting up the comparison I cited in post #48 on page two of this thread. Set up only takes a few minutes, but it is most telling. Let me know what you hear.

Has technology brought us forward or backward?  I did that entire '69 show by myself and one stagehand set the stage. I even did the monitor mix too. How many technicians did it take to do the 2016 version with how many add-on do-dads and such. We have come to place such importance on the technical that we have lost the music. Like that mixer in the Mike & Bruce show I attended, our heads are buried in the silicon sand of digital chips so far that we are missing reality -- as I see many people these days who are going through life, their life, lost in a smartphone screen's image, while the real substance of life passes by, never to be gained again.
~swd

Stephen, I believe that technology has brought us backward on this matter; excessive use of Autotune and digital manipulation has become well past the point of being ridiculous. I'm sure no artists (other than some rappers, and Cher on "Believe") actually *want* the usage of Autotune or pitch correction to be noticeable to the listener; it's supposed to be transparent, not an obvious "fix" like a bad Howard Cossell toupee. It's very much like the overuse of bad, obvious CG in modern films; I cannot stomach it.
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« Reply #56 on: June 01, 2016, 03:57:35 PM »

A lot of people on her upset just because they sounded so great.  If it was auto-tune, who cares??  Brian seems to love auto-tune, after all.
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« Reply #57 on: June 01, 2016, 04:57:30 PM »

This is how the ML that I saw/heard in concert a few weeks ago...and enjoyed. Nothing like the Memorial Day thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32RpEwwxT1I
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« Reply #58 on: June 01, 2016, 05:55:38 PM »

This is how the ML that I saw/heard in concert a few weeks ago...and enjoyed. Nothing like the Memorial Day thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32RpEwwxT1I
COMMENT to Terry:  A few (?) weeks ago, more like a month-plus, Mike was fighting with a cold. It was one of those that comes and goes -- like you think it's gone and then bam, it takes you down again. Don't know it this performance was during a "cold" time or not, but -- the show must go on.

Do try the comparison of the 1969 and 2016 California Girls I wrote about at post #48, page two. Very revealing and worth the trouble. 
~swd
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« Reply #59 on: June 01, 2016, 08:52:48 PM »

Stephen: There are fan videos of the rehearsals held prior to the show on the National Mall, specifically check out Good Vibrations. If you try lining that rehearsal up with the official PBS video of the evening concert, the performances seem to match perfectly, everything from tempo to phrasing and inflections from vocalists and instrumentalists. Curious to hear your thoughts, if you get a chance to try that.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2016, 09:09:47 PM by guitarfool2002 » Logged

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« Reply #60 on: June 01, 2016, 10:11:58 PM »

COMMENT:

I am trying to understand all of the problems you-all are hearing. Here is one thing I did and you might try doing it too.  I used two screens on my computer (or a split screen) and the pause/play button to compare.

Screen one was >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USe4ZI8rHsI&feature=youtu.be
California Girls (1969) starting at 5:11

Screen two was >>>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eF8JIoAp310&app=desktop
California Girls (2016) starting at 5:44

Once you get the two screens set up you can easily toggle between performances of 1969 and 2016. Set the levels around the same. Apart from the fact that my mix sounds more musical and that there are three more Beach Boy voices in the blend, concentrate on Michael’s delivery, especially in the verses. Although there is 47 years separating the two shows and thousands of times Mike has sung this song, his performance is remarkably consistent. The ’69 performance is not “doctored” in any way. Back then I used about a 2dB boost at 2k for Mike, no limiting, no nothing else. I have no idea what is being used on the 2016 version, but I must admit, it does not sound as musical.

Let me relate an incident that happened to me about a year ago. Professor Conner and myself were given some tickets to see the Mike & Bruce Beach Boys show at our local theater here in Clearwater, FL. (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://thingstodo.s3.amazonaws.com/resources/photos/Ruth-Eckerd-Hall.jpg&imgrefurl=http://events.tbo.com/things-to-do/destination-detail/ruth-eckerd-hall/4419&h=310&w=370&tbnid=L9qSjytabMj7xM:&tbnh=160&tbnw=191&docid=GXPtKpqnbAID_M&itg=1&usg=__Rzjxs5nTaRCH-yiHVOISckGEA38=)
As you can see it’s a modern, well-equipped music hall. With more than enough speakers flying over stage and on both sides, the show started. One song in and I turned to Conner to complain how awful the sound was. Not only was it too loud, but something sounded wrong … just wrong to my ears. I didn’t like it. It was not pleasing. It didn’t sound like any concert I had mixed in the past, nor attended in that hall that year. I couldn’t put my finger on it. The rest of the audience was in a groove, so I guess they got their money’s worth, but I was cringing. During the intermission I abandon my $200 seat and moved back to the console, got permission to stay a watch the rest of the show back there. Within 30 seconds I knew why I hated the sound. The entire show was digital. I was listening to a damn computer mimic the vocals I had grown to know. Talk about processing … the engineer never looked toward the stage, instead keeping his head buried in one computer program and graph after another. Switching from one channel to the next, making on-screen graphic changes and missing one musical cue after another. Now I don’t know if in one of those algorithms was Autotune or not. I do know that if I had paid for my ticket I would have demanded my money back. When I go to a concert I go to hear the artist(s) not a computer representation of them. I can do that by playing a CD at home. The console was certainly State-of-the-Art, and could turn any sound inside-out, but to what end?  It was not musical. It was like the comparison of the two sounds from above – 1969 versus 2016.

When digital came into the professional world I stayed with analog. But many artists embraced it and gradually became use to the sound, until now that seems right and analog seems dull. But for me, no matter how good the digital is, no matter how high the sample rate is, it still is a sample and I hear it – or rather, I don’t hear it – I don’t hear the complete waveform. I don’t know how to explain it. Maybe I can’t hear a good algorithm version or slight amount of Autotune because digital all sounds like crap to me (like crap compared to analog, that is). Perhaps I have not developed the ability to distinguish one type of digital distortion for another. I prefer analog. At least in analog the distortions are musically related, and in some cases can improve the musicality of the waveform.

Try the two-screen comparison (above) for yourself. It is most revealing.
  ~swd     

I'm not a technical minded person, but what you are saying reminds me of my experiences recording with digital vs analog. My analog recording was on a portable 4 track cassette deck. And yet, I listen to the sound of the vocals on some of those old tapes and find myself preferring that sound to what I get recording digitally. Unfortunately, digital is where it's at these days, we're stuck with it, but I think you hit the nail on the head with your observations.
Some day in the distant future, in a galaxy deep in space, I will win the lottery and spend my winnings on doing a proper analog recording in a professional studio.
Thank you for your contributions to this thread, Mr. Desper.
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♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇
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« Reply #61 on: June 01, 2016, 11:16:30 PM »

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The entire show was digital. I was listening to a damn computer mimic the vocals I had grown to know. Talk about processing … the engineer never looked toward the stage, instead keeping his head buried in one computer program and graph after another. Switching from one channel to the next, making on-screen graphic changes and missing one musical cue after another. Now I don’t know if in one of those algorithms was Autotune or not

I'll bet dollars to donuts it was Melodyne.

Quote
I'm not a technical minded person, but what you are saying reminds me of my experiences recording with digital vs analog. My analog recording was on a portable 4 track cassette deck. And yet, I listen to the sound of the vocals on some of those old tapes and find myself preferring that sound to what I get recording digitally.

Not for nothing, but I *miss* recording in analog...been since my college days, so about 16 years since I've been able to record in that medium. With my own music, everything is digital for budget and availability reasons, but there've been times where I've been SO desperate for that nice warm sound, or something approximating that, that I've actually hiss to recordings, or even sampled the ambient sound of something I previously recorded on tape. Not any of the instruments, just the ambiance before the actual song began.

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« Reply #62 on: June 02, 2016, 10:20:03 AM »

Mike was using some sort of vocal effect on at least a few songs during the 1980 tour. Check out his lead on "Barbara Ann" (especially the beginning) from the Washington DC 1980 show. It's near the end (of course), around the 49 minute mark:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0KdUAA6Do4

I believe all of the lead vocals on this are the originals, it was mainly a keyboard and some backing vocals added in overdubs, and of course the overdubs and mixing all hail from 1980 (for the HBO TV special in question).

The vocal effect is interesting; doesn't really sound a great deal the same as autotune, but a bit of a similar robotic effect.
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« Reply #63 on: June 02, 2016, 10:39:30 AM »

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The entire show was digital. I was listening to a damn computer mimic the vocals I had grown to know. Talk about processing … the engineer never looked toward the stage, instead keeping his head buried in one computer program and graph after another. Switching from one channel to the next, making on-screen graphic changes and missing one musical cue after another. Now I don’t know if in one of those algorithms was Autotune or not

I'll bet dollars to donuts it was Melodyne.

Quote
I'm not a technical minded person, but what you are saying reminds me of my experiences recording with digital vs analog. My analog recording was on a portable 4 track cassette deck. And yet, I listen to the sound of the vocals on some of those old tapes and find myself preferring that sound to what I get recording digitally.

Not for nothing, but I *miss* recording in analog...been since my college days, so about 16 years since I've been able to record in that medium. With my own music, everything is digital for budget and availability reasons, but there've been times where I've been SO desperate for that nice warm sound, or something approximating that, that I've actually hiss to recordings, or even sampled the ambient sound of something I previously recorded on tape. Not any of the instruments, just the ambiance before the actual song began.


   

I agree it sounds like all of the vocals are running through Melodyne.

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« Reply #64 on: June 02, 2016, 10:48:55 AM »

This is how the ML that I saw/heard in concert a few weeks ago...and enjoyed. Nothing like the Memorial Day thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32RpEwwxT1I
COMMENT to Terry:  A few (?) weeks ago, more like a month-plus, Mike was fighting with a cold. It was one of those that comes and goes -- like you think it's gone and then bam, it takes you down again. Don't know it this performance was during a "cold" time or not, but -- the show must go on.

Do try the comparison of the 1969 and 2016 California Girls I wrote about at post #48, page two. Very revealing and worth the trouble. 
~swd

I actually thought Mike and the entire band sounded great when I saw them a couple weeks ago and didn't see any sign of Mike being sick or anything. I do agree that his phrasing, etc has not changed much throughout the years, and he actually sounds better now than he did in the 90's.
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« Reply #65 on: June 02, 2016, 11:30:16 AM »

This is how the ML that I saw/heard in concert a few weeks ago...and enjoyed. Nothing like the Memorial Day thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32RpEwwxT1I

Mike sounds MUCH better on fun fun fun here! I cant stand auto tune and i actually think it sounds worse then an old out of pitch voice! Mike still sounds great here without auto crap!
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« Reply #66 on: June 02, 2016, 02:06:20 PM »

Stephen: There are fan videos of the rehearsals held prior to the show on the National Mall, specifically check out Good Vibrations. If you try lining that rehearsal up with the official PBS video of the evening concert, the performances seem to match perfectly

Yep.  I'm sure playing back and mime-ing a precorded track was necessary or else the band would've chosen to do it live.  I saw them live last year and the new lineup is IMHO the best sounding live touring version of this band in the last 15 years.

Not to get too forensic-y, but I enjoy the details so here I go:

Scott has that unmistakable pitch corrected sound on his solo part before the rest of group comes in: https://youtu.be/eF8JIoAp310?t=269
Also, who is singing the Ba ba ba ba ba with Mike?  Clearly the louder voice on that part isn't Mike.  I don't actually hear Mike at all singing that part, but his lips are.  It sounds like Brian E, but Brian E is miming the higher falsetto part behind Mike.  And I hear Cowsill in the GV choruses but he has no mic at this show.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2016, 02:07:48 PM by DC310 » Logged
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« Reply #67 on: June 02, 2016, 08:22:53 PM »

Stephen: There are fan videos of the rehearsals held prior to the show on the National Mall, specifically check out Good Vibrations. If you try lining that rehearsal up with the official PBS video of the evening concert, the performances seem to match perfectly

Yep.  I'm sure playing back and mime-ing a precorded track was necessary or else the band would've chosen to do it live.  I saw them live last year and the new lineup is IMHO the best sounding live touring version of this band in the last 15 years.

Not to get too forensic-y, but I enjoy the details so here I go:

Scott has that unmistakable pitch corrected sound on his solo part before the rest of group comes in: https://youtu.be/eF8JIoAp310?t=269
Also, who is singing the Ba ba ba ba ba with Mike?  Clearly the louder voice on that part isn't Mike.  I don't actually hear Mike at all singing that part, but his lips are.  It sounds like Brian E, but Brian E is miming the higher falsetto part behind Mike.  And I hear Cowsill in the GV choruses but he has no mic at this show.


COMMENT to DC310:  Here's a couple of answers that may help.  "LIVE" in broadcast terms does not necessary mean that what you are seeing on your TV tube is happening at the actual same time you view it. When a program is said to be "live" it means it was performed before a live audience in one complete pass, that it was not taken in segments and edited together to form a story or show. However live does not presuppose that some post production tweaking was not performed. For this DC show, I really do not know if it as pre-recorded live, that is, performed before an audience with cameras rolling and then broadcast at a later time, or if it was the actual real-time broadcast of a real-time performance. In any event, the show that we keep going back and viewing is certainly a performance before a live audience that is a re-play. I suspect the show was pre-recorded and then broadcast as if live into the different time zones around the United States. So let's go with that assumption.

Looking around on stage I see at least 35 to 40 microphones -- could be more. Each of these mics is feed to a splitter with one signal used for the actual live audience "house mix" or a mix done at the time of performance. The other signal, representing each microphone, is recorded on separate tracks. After the live performance the multi-track is set aside. Next the same thing has happened to the video where each camera has been recorded separately. Further, cameramen have been out in the audience during the performance taking cut-away shots of various people keeping time or dancing. These are called "reaction shots." The director then decides what camera shots will be used and intercut with which reaction shots. Thus, the video portion of the show is assembled.

Next it is put in sync with the audio tracks. The mixer now has control over every microphone (without fear of feedback) and can see what person or instrument may be in a close-up or is featured in the video that the viewer will see. The mixer can now listen to each singer and, if necessary, apply pitch correction, or just ask the performer to re-sing his part or part of his part via a punch-in. The correction may be for a line of vocal or a word. It may be to correct a missed part or a mis-sung part. Using the punch-in technique is the most natural and is the way all recording of albums is done. It is called sweetening or vocal replacement.

It's the same technique as is used in movie making called dialog replacement. You know that all movies re-record all speaking by actors and most all of the effects. Everything is contrived. Nothing is what it seems. Further, the mixer usually will feature in the sound mix (that is boost a little) whatever the video editor has featured in the picture. If it's the drums, their level is raised slightly to match the picture. If it's a person singing, that person will be boosted in the mix. You don't actually hear it, but it adds to the realism of the whole thing. You pointed out that Mike was singing, but it didn't sound like him. That may be. His actual voice may have been replaced at that point in the presentation. This is legal. Especially if you look at this DC show as a "production" much like a movie or musical. Don't look at it as a show, but as a production. In this context, ADR (automatic dialog replacement) is very much the way things are done. (( Educate yourself about ADR by view this video >>> https://vimeo.com/110213154 )).

When I worked for the Boys, and we did a TV special or part of some movie, we always went back and replaced parts of vocals, re-worked them to more of a perfect sound, and used dialog replacement techniques to our advantage. Carl especially, insisted on using dialog replacement to correct every little missed entrance or out-of-tune vocal. (( You think it was Audrey Hepburn who sang all those beautiful songs in "My Fair Lady"?  Wrong !!  Take a look >>> http://www.samefacts.com/2014/06/culture-and-civil-society/film-culture-and-civil-society/the-secret-dubbing-of-audrey-hepburn-in-my-fair-lady/ )).

What I see happening here in this thread is the "discovery" by young fans of the techniques used by film makers to produce a more perfect product. The young fans think the Beach Boys are being deceptive and cheating on their talent, but in fact, are just following along with practices that have been in vogue for decades.

When I first started working in the movie industry, one of my first Union (Hollywood Local 695)  assignments was to run "playback" for the movie Thoroughly Modern Millie, staring Julie Andrews and Carol Channing. Their singing had previously been recorded in a studio, so my job was to playback that studio track on the set as each actress sang and animated (danced) their character as per the script. Watch the entire movie on line or look at this trailer and know that I'm supplying the music cues for each music and dance scene. Especially rewarding were the playbacks for Carol Channing. (( Trailer >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCug0golA6c )) I'm telling you this so that you realize what Mike and Bruce and all that group did on this DC Memorial show was not anything new. It's been going on for decades. You-all are just discovering the techniques.

At the beginning of this thread I said what I heard was just good singing. I meant that statement within the context of sweetening. I know each Beach Boy can sing and sing with extreme talent. How many thousands of punch-in's have I done to make it sound as if they are perfect singers. Is that cheating?  Have you ever criticized the use of over-dubbing via punch-ins on a record to get a sound right?  You don't hear it. Yet not one song is recorded without using some type of correction technique. Now all of a sudden, it's something of a big deal. Sorry, but that is just the way it's done. Enjoy the music. Don't be like me who when going to the movies doesn't see a story, but sees all the technology used to tell the story. Don't fall into that trap. Don't let the technology overcome your enjoyment of the final musical product. 
  ~swd 

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« Reply #68 on: June 02, 2016, 08:38:58 PM »

The fan video of the GV rehearsal from earlier that day can be put into near-perfect audio sync with the actual telecast of the concert later that night just by opening the two YouTube videos and lining them up using pause and play on YT. That's what stuck out to me, I thought two separate performances shot on video (one pro, one audience) at different times of the day would not line up perfectly unless it was a prerecorded track.
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« Reply #69 on: June 02, 2016, 09:05:02 PM »

The fan video of the GV rehearsal from earlier that day can be put into near-perfect audio sync with the actual telecast of the concert later that night just by opening the two YouTube videos and lining them up using pause and play on YT. That's what stuck out to me, I thought two separate performances shot on video (one pro, one audience) at different times of the day would not line up perfectly unless it was a prerecorded track.
COMMENT to Guitarfool2002:  Ever hear of a click track?  What do you think each performer (including the horn players wearing headphones and the orchestra conductor) hears over their wireless in-ear headphones? The entire performance is synchronized using click tracks usually with verbal indications of changes (or verses or bridges). Therefore all the music, camera blocking, lighting changes, and (if used) fireworks, are all synchronized beat by beat to be the same. Every performer, every camera man, every lighting technician, and every mixer is hearing that click track with indications for verses and choruses. this makes each performance equal in length and in time -- to the beat. Each starts at the downbeat and by the end of the entire set, ends with each player/singer on the same last beat. Everyone is perfectly in time at all times. It does not need to be a pre-recorded track to line up perfectly because every take is started with a sync beat. How do you think mega-shows come off so integrated, so exact in timing?  How do all those fireworks at the Super Bowl seem to line-up with the musicians on stage. It's because everyone is hearing a click track over their headphones.

I've mixed shows that used click-tracks. There are pros and cons. It makes every show meet a standard for consistent performance value, but it also limits shows preventing the musicians from raising above the standard, for that once-in-a-while extremely wonderful performance. The click track prevents the musicians from connecting with their audience, but it also provides every audience with a relatively good show.
  ~swd   
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« Reply #70 on: June 02, 2016, 09:12:42 PM »

The fan video of the GV rehearsal from earlier that day can be put into near-perfect audio sync with the actual telecast of the concert later that night just by opening the two YouTube videos and lining them up using pause and play on YT. That's what stuck out to me, I thought two separate performances shot on video (one pro, one audience) at different times of the day would not line up perfectly unless it was a prerecorded track.
COMMENT to Guitarfool2002:  Ever hear of a click track?  What do you think each performer (including the horn players wearing headphones and the orchestra conductor) hears over their wireless in-ear headphones? The entire performance is synchronized using click tracks usually with verbal indications of changes (or verses or bridges). Therefore all the music, camera blocking, lighting changes, and (if used) fireworks, are all synchronized beat by beat to be the same. Every performer, every camera man, every lighting technician, and every mixer is hearing that click track with indications for verses and choruses. this makes each performance equal in length and in time -- to the beat. Each starts at the downbeat and by the end of the entire set, ends with each player/singer on the same last beat. Everyone is perfectly in time at all times. It does not need to be a pre-recorded track to line up perfectly because every take is started with a sync beat. How do you think mega-shows come off so integrated, so exact in timing?  How do all those fireworks at the Super Bowl seem to line-up with the musicians on stage. It's because everyone is hearing a click track over their headphones.

I've mixed shows that used click-tracks. There are pros and cons. It makes every show meet a standard for consistent performance value, but it also limits shows preventing the musicians from raising above the standard, for that once-in-a-while extremely wonderful performance. The click track prevents the musicians from connecting with their audience, but it also provides every audience with a relatively good show.
  ~swd   

I just gave my students last week a lesson about the importance of playing to a click track, and practicing to one while wearing headphones during a talk about setting up and doing basic tracks for a recording. But that's not what it was about these videos, it was everything from the vocal inflections and phrasing to each and every beat and note lining up between what the afternoon audience heard at the rehearsal and captured on video and what the audiences watching the actual show on TV later that night heard on the broadcast. It was the same tracks.
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« Reply #71 on: June 02, 2016, 09:21:05 PM »

The fan video of the GV rehearsal from earlier that day can be put into near-perfect audio sync with the actual telecast of the concert later that night just by opening the two YouTube videos and lining them up using pause and play on YT. That's what stuck out to me, I thought two separate performances shot on video (one pro, one audience) at different times of the day would not line up perfectly unless it was a prerecorded track.
COMMENT to Guitarfool2002:  Ever hear of a click track?  What do you think each performer (including the horn players wearing headphones and the orchestra conductor) hears over their wireless in-ear headphones? The entire performance is synchronized using click tracks usually with verbal indications of changes (or verses or bridges). Therefore all the music, camera blocking, lighting changes, and (if used) fireworks, are all synchronized beat by beat to be the same. Every performer, every camera man, every lighting technician, and every mixer is hearing that click track with indications for verses and choruses. this makes each performance equal in length and in time -- to the beat. Each starts at the downbeat and by the end of the entire set, ends with each player/singer on the same last beat. Everyone is perfectly in time at all times. It does not need to be a pre-recorded track to line up perfectly because every take is started with a sync beat. How do you think mega-shows come off so integrated, so exact in timing?  How do all those fireworks at the Super Bowl seem to line-up with the musicians on stage. It's because everyone is hearing a click track over their headphones.

I've mixed shows that used click-tracks. There are pros and cons. It makes every show meet a standard for consistent performance value, but it also limits shows preventing the musicians from raising above the standard, for that once-in-a-while extremely wonderful performance. The click track prevents the musicians from connecting with their audience, but it also provides every audience with a relatively good show.
  ~swd   

I just gave my students last week a lesson about the importance of playing to a click track, and practicing to one while wearing headphones during a talk about setting up and doing basic tracks for a recording. But that's not what it was about these videos, it was everything from the vocal inflections and phrasing to each and every beat and note lining up between what the afternoon audience heard at the rehearsal and captured on video and what the audiences watching the actual show on TV later that night heard on the broadcast. It was the same tracks.

COMMENT to Guitarfool2002, So what is your point?  Each show was the same?  Each could be intercut to the other?  ~swd
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« Reply #72 on: June 02, 2016, 09:24:47 PM »

But that's not what it was about these videos, it was everything from the vocal inflections and phrasing to each and every beat and note lining up between what the afternoon audience heard at the rehearsal and captured on video and what the audiences watching the actual show on TV later that night heard on the broadcast. It was the same tracks.

It appears that way.  Going back and forth on "Good Vibrations" from the telecast to the rehearsal video focusing on Jeff's lead vocal; it's pretty clear I'm going back and forth on the same audio recording between the two.  Every inflection is there: "close my eyeess....somehow closer nooooww..." 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qfj2D52eLtk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eF8JIoAp310
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« Reply #73 on: June 02, 2016, 09:31:30 PM »

But that's not what it was about these videos, it was everything from the vocal inflections and phrasing to each and every beat and note lining up between what the afternoon audience heard at the rehearsal and captured on video and what the audiences watching the actual show on TV later that night heard on the broadcast. It was the same tracks.

It appears that way.  Going back and forth on "Good Vibrations" from the telecast to the rehearsal video focusing on Jeff's lead vocal; it's pretty clear I'm going back and forth on the same audio recording between the two.  Every inflection is there: "close my eyeess....somehow closer nooooww..." 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qfj2D52eLtk

COMMENT to Guitarfool2002,  I still don't understand your point.  Are you saying Jeff is incapable of repeating his performance or that a shot of him during the rehearsal was intercut to the evening, so-called, live performance taping?  Please explain to this dense engineer!  ~swd

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eF8JIoAp310
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guitarfool2002
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« Reply #74 on: June 02, 2016, 09:31:39 PM »

The fan video of the GV rehearsal from earlier that day can be put into near-perfect audio sync with the actual telecast of the concert later that night just by opening the two YouTube videos and lining them up using pause and play on YT. That's what stuck out to me, I thought two separate performances shot on video (one pro, one audience) at different times of the day would not line up perfectly unless it was a prerecorded track.
COMMENT to Guitarfool2002:  Ever hear of a click track?  What do you think each performer (including the horn players wearing headphones and the orchestra conductor) hears over their wireless in-ear headphones? The entire performance is synchronized using click tracks usually with verbal indications of changes (or verses or bridges). Therefore all the music, camera blocking, lighting changes, and (if used) fireworks, are all synchronized beat by beat to be the same. Every performer, every camera man, every lighting technician, and every mixer is hearing that click track with indications for verses and choruses. this makes each performance equal in length and in time -- to the beat. Each starts at the downbeat and by the end of the entire set, ends with each player/singer on the same last beat. Everyone is perfectly in time at all times. It does not need to be a pre-recorded track to line up perfectly because every take is started with a sync beat. How do you think mega-shows come off so integrated, so exact in timing?  How do all those fireworks at the Super Bowl seem to line-up with the musicians on stage. It's because everyone is hearing a click track over their headphones.

I've mixed shows that used click-tracks. There are pros and cons. It makes every show meet a standard for consistent performance value, but it also limits shows preventing the musicians from raising above the standard, for that once-in-a-while extremely wonderful performance. The click track prevents the musicians from connecting with their audience, but it also provides every audience with a relatively good show.
  ~swd   

I just gave my students last week a lesson about the importance of playing to a click track, and practicing to one while wearing headphones during a talk about setting up and doing basic tracks for a recording. But that's not what it was about these videos, it was everything from the vocal inflections and phrasing to each and every beat and note lining up between what the afternoon audience heard at the rehearsal and captured on video and what the audiences watching the actual show on TV later that night heard on the broadcast. It was the same tracks.

COMMENT to Guitarfool2002, So what is your point?  Each show was the same?  Each could be intercut to the other?  ~swd

I can only conclude from what I heard and saw that it was the same prerecorded audio track for GV which was used and heard by the audience who saw the rehearsal, and the later audiences who saw the actual concert in DC and watched the broadcast.
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"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
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