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« Reply #375 on: May 27, 2016, 12:18:21 PM »

Yes, very fair point.
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« Reply #376 on: May 27, 2016, 12:36:04 PM »

Why not just have a poll/referendum so that the board can vote whether he remains a mod or not?  Remain or crexit...

The day members can vote moderators in or out is the day I make this board disappear like it never existed.
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« Reply #377 on: May 27, 2016, 02:01:16 PM »

Referendum? This isn't a democracy! It's a dictatorship!*

*not really, though
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« Reply #378 on: May 27, 2016, 02:19:07 PM »

When I agreed to do this, there was no condition of a vote except among the other mods and admins to approve or not. I do not think it is fair nor justified to call for a vote on my status in general unless similar votes can be called for to determine the status of any other member on this board.

When you consider there are at least three cases in this thread alone of either long-term current or previously banned members logging in and posting under completely different accounts from their primary (and most well known) accounts and names, it isn't hard to see how taking a vote on anyone's fate on this board has the potential to be rigged in many ways. Voting in "best album" polls is one thing, but when members are signing in and posting under multiple accounts (not just changing usernames), it isn't possible to judge anything fairly by popular vote except the informal polls, and I will not be subject to it, no matter what the results may be.

This is another case where the behavior of certain members who should know better or at least have more respect for the community have affected the way things are done or could be done. I will strongly reject a vote of any kind not even involving me, considering all of the abuses of the most simple foundations of signing up and posting to this board.
Could not agree more.  It is like the tail wagging the dog.  We are guests on this board and are fortunate that someone has chosen to host this forum to discuss the music that brings this group together. 

This.
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« Reply #379 on: May 27, 2016, 02:50:25 PM »

Why not just have a poll/referendum so that the board can vote whether he remains a mod or not?  Remain or crexit...

The day members can vote moderators in or out is the day I make this board disappear like it never existed.

Thank you. Looks like moderator impeachment is dead in the water, thank god.
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« Reply #380 on: May 27, 2016, 03:10:12 PM »

How many people here have frequented other boards over the years? Granted, I haven't consistently been on any other board more than this one, but my experience has been that many, if not most other boards don't have open forums for people to gripe about moderation and certainly don't have some sort of voting process or veto process on it.

On many if not most boards, people are banned, posts removed, and no discussion happens. People and posts and threads drop off the face of the Earth, end of story.

So it's kind of interesting that people are advocating for *more* moderating, but also calling into question *why* various members have been banned (to the point of asking the mods or board admin to produce proof as if it's an evidentiary hearing or something). Generally though, the *more* a board is policed and attention paid to it, the more things are clamped down and the *more* likely it is that offending, potentially "ban-able" things will be noticed. The more *that* happens, the less likely it is you're going to get a detailed log (or whatever it is people are looking for) outlining each person banned, reasons for banning (if they were banned for saying something inflammatory, do you really think they're going to create a permanent repository for those comments?), detailed evidence, etc.

Whether one agrees or disagrees with the ideas of a board owner having to provide all members with documentary evidence of what each banned member has done, that concept is not at all realistic. I've *never* seen it on another board. I'm not saying a board has never done such a thing. But I'm curious if someone can find a single other active, ongoing message board with over 3,000 members that houses a database of banned members along with documentary evidence for each banned member.

This board isn't perfect, but for those that act like this board is some sort of "Wild West" scenario with tons of acrimony and griping and whatnot, I can only say that this place is calm and peaceful compared to MANY other boards and certainly other corners of the internet (Reddit, YouTube comments, even Facebook, etc.). That this board generally runs pretty smoothly is a testament to both the mods/admin, and just as much if not moreso the posters (most of them anyway).

Let me also remind again that this is, as far as I can tell, the ONLY regularly active and thriving BB message board around. The "official" BW board isn't very active (for whatever reason), and what else is there? BB Britain is barely active, even when Brian is on tour in the UK.

I'm amazed that the ONLY large, active board focusing on the BB is also one of the best around the internet for any band that I've seen.
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« Reply #381 on: May 27, 2016, 03:18:46 PM »

Well said. I find the DEMANDS of those on here to justify the banning of members ridiculous. Tho Mods have made decisions abide by them or leave.
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« Reply #382 on: May 27, 2016, 03:26:52 PM »

Mr. Jude said it best. Shall we now carry on?
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« Reply #383 on: May 27, 2016, 03:29:57 PM »

You know, that's a good way to think about it, Hey Jude. I think, in this instance, a problem occurred wherein a few people had a negative reaction to a poster being banned and it cropped up in thread after thread, so it started to seem like A BIG THING. But it was really just a few people and perhaps I had trouble with perspective. I think the open acrimony among posters who are identifiable to me (as posters) makes me uncomfortable, where on YouTube or something it's more like anonymous people splurging; here it's more like people I know fighting. I feel like this is a community where YouTube is an enormous anonymous bulletin board. It's certainly true that there's nothing as gross here as on youtube, and I guess just the fact that I think if it as a community, if a rancorous one, speaks well for it.

But the open acrimony still bothers me. I get when people strongly disagree on a topic, in a thread, and sometimes get frustrated or even angry while in that thread, on that topic, but it seems like a handful of people here carry their frustration with each other from thread to thread and can't even be pleasant with each other on what they agree on.

But, another but, I guess people can't be forced to like each other or be accepting of each other's differences. I guess the best you can do is make guidelines about language and let it go.
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« Reply #384 on: May 27, 2016, 03:30:19 PM »

Perhaps the management should experiment with a six month period of authoritarianism on here. Maybe then people will see just how lenient the current management is.
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« Reply #385 on: May 27, 2016, 04:04:18 PM »

And heck, perhaps the mods don't have the time for such a list; so instead they could make a list of the most prominent members that were banned. Such as Runnersdialzero - I too have no idea why he was banned, and frankly I miss his presence on this board a lot.

I guess you would start here:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,22826.msg540638.html#msg540638

And probably need to read the whole thread.
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« Reply #386 on: May 27, 2016, 04:14:51 PM »

Mr. Mott, what for this digging up? Afaik, The Cincinnati Kid, runnersdialzero aren't your friends. Agd - okay but why care about random posters that before bans you never did?
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« Reply #387 on: May 27, 2016, 04:16:03 PM »

Mr. Mott, what for this digging up? Afaik, The Cincinnati Kid, runnersdialzero aren't your friends. Agd - okay but why care about random posters that before bans you never did?

Because it's me. If I wasn't a mod here, I guarantee this wouldn't be an issue with him.
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« Reply #388 on: May 27, 2016, 04:19:47 PM »

Mr. Mott, what for this digging up? Afaik, The Cincinnati Kid, runnersdialzero aren't your friends. Agd - okay but why care about random posters that before bans you never did?

Rab was curious, as I quoted. I consider everybody on here a friend.
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« Reply #389 on: May 27, 2016, 04:23:09 PM »

Mr. Mott, what for this digging up? Afaik, The Cincinnati Kid, runnersdialzero aren't your friends. Agd - okay but why care about random posters that before bans you never did?

Because it's me. If I wasn't a mod here, I guarantee this wouldn't be an issue with him.

Where does this come from?
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« Reply #390 on: May 27, 2016, 04:26:24 PM »

My reasoning for producing evidence is because a few prominent/longtime members decided to leave this forum because of the AGD ban (granted, there were likely other reasons that aided in their decision to depart, but that incident was a large piece of straw that broke the camels back). I don't think they realized the severity of the evidence. Also, there is a perception on the board that Guitarfool was the cause of many bans, and that he banned people outright for no reason. I wanted a clear cut document/post that outlined perfectly that the bans were done by the book (as Billy said they were countless times). And I even mentioned that such a document was probably impossible to assemble, so perhaps make a post that highlights a few of the more prominent/talked-about bans.

I saw some of the PMs that got Andrew G Doe banned (some of the more outlandish Melinda rumors included). I'm not sure that people like Lee Dempsey would have left had the evidence come to light. I'm not sure that Bgas would've left. I'm not sure there would have been uproar and an increase in calls for questioning the moderation here had the evidence come out. Maybe I'm 100% wrong - maybe they would've left anyways. But I truly think that the evidence would've cleared up a lot of speculation amongst many members here.

As my signature subtly points out: I have full faith that the moderators made the right call. But other people who knew Andrew for years/decades understandably did not think it was the right call. Some of these people were prominent members here, who have now quit because of all the madness going on on this forum. It's a shame we lost those people.

With that said, I totally agree with you HeyJude. Perhaps it is incredibly unreasonable to ask the moderators to write a post that justifies each and every ban that's taken place in the last 3 years. Their job is tough enough. It was an idea to try and quell some of the speculation that has taken place here recently (and led to many people quitting). But maybe it is highly unrealistic.

@Cam, thanks for the link! I'll fully read through that thread later tonight.
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« Reply #391 on: May 27, 2016, 04:48:38 PM »

People go and get back. If bgas didn't post for weeks doesn't meant he "left". This place is like magnet. If people quit talking and discussing members - and sure, I'm doing just that - it'll be nice here. News, books out, tour etc.
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« Reply #392 on: May 27, 2016, 05:56:35 PM »

The point that has (perhaps understandably) gotten lost (due to emotional reaction and standard over-analysis) is about the need for consistent moderation and an awareness by the moderators of the values they project.

For example, peeps are upset that AGD is banned, and have indicated it's a loss to the board - I don't think anyone has outright denied his f***-up, a royal one it was.
He's gone and it's disappointing.  There are subsequent reactions/implications across the board many of which have been heavily addressed both ways.

OSD got banned for fucking up, then got reinstated, then goes about trolling the hell out of the place and it's disappointing. There have been subsequent reactions/implications across the board with no action to address.  (Consistency)

Craig puts the squeeze on BW and Judd for their naughty NPP thread calling their postings into account, yet is wounded here when his moderation or posting is called into account. (Values projected)

We are told bannings are only enacted when the mods are in agreement (or Charles is summoned) yet Billy seemed to be unsure of why RDZ was banned.  Consistency again.

Deadpool's comments about imposing an authoritarian approach are a little interesting - I'm not for mass bannings: what a headache.  But more public warnings that promote one of the key rules here: 2) Debate is fine; when it crosses into personal attacks, might go a long way to (re)lift the game on this board; Debbie KL - re your response to your postings about Val.  I assure you, I am not calling for your head, Debbie.  I don't think the comment was appropriate in light of values mods have expressed here about how they've been treated on other boards & the rule stated, and think you should have been called on it.

Easy stuff and enough with the examples.

One last thing, Charles, can you provide the hard evidence re this alledged threat against your family by Mikie - or retract the statement to avoid speculation becoming fact.

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« Reply #393 on: May 27, 2016, 06:00:48 PM »

Quote
We are told bannings are only enacted when the mods are in agreement (or Charles is summoned) yet Billy claimed he was unaware of why RDZ was banned.

Wait...what? Where did I say that? I must've had a major brain fart if I did, or was thinking of someone else other than runners...one of the reasons why his suspension was made permanent was because he had multiple accounts.
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« Reply #394 on: May 27, 2016, 06:04:01 PM »

Re OSD - afaik, Billy said that he got back because they found it was 2nd chance. So if he says sth. not according to rules in the future, it will be permanent.
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« Reply #395 on: May 27, 2016, 06:19:02 PM »

"Witch Hunt" is a term referring to the Salem (Massachusetts) witch trials of the 1600's. If members of the community accused someone of being a witch, the end result was that person ended up dead. The accusation itself was enough proof that the accused was guilty of being a witch. They were given trials where any number of town fathers, leaders, clergy, and regular townspeople would line up and point to the accused, giving their proof to the "court" that they know the accused was guilty, they saw it with their own eyes. The evidence didn't need to be factual or even realistic, someone could say they saw the accused levitating in the woods and that was taken as all the proof needed. Then there were opportunities given to the accused to "confess", which similar to the Inquisition involved everything from being dunked and drowned in a pond or lake until an admission of guilt was made, to being burned at the stake.

It got revived again most infamously when Sen Joseph "Tailgunner Joe" McCarthy and any number of his government cohorts began calling dozens of citizens before Senate committees in the 1950's accusing them of being communists. Many of them were actively working in Hollywood and the entertainment industry. Many had their careers ruined by the simple fact they were accused of being communists, or traitors to the country - whatever they said to defend themselves meant little or nothing in light of the fact they were accused. Others were compelled to testify against their fellow citizens when confronted with various dossiers and case histories that had been compiled by J Edgar Hoover's office which amounted to blackmailing them into confirming the accusations.

It was the result of earlier cases which had been proven being taken to illogical extremes by zealots and those who were on a mission to destroy people they blamed for ruining the country. Once the precedent was set by earlier cases, it was open season on anyone who was a target to be taken out. And whatever defense they had meant nothing because the accusation itself was a guilty verdict by default.


"Communist Witch Hunt", "McCarthyism"...it was a modern version of the Salem witch trials where the accused was guilty because they were accused, facts or truth be damned. The worst end result of mob mentality, propaganda, and getting groups of people to believe whatever they are being led to believe in order to get a desired result - whether it was ridding the town of witches, or ridding the US and Hollywood of communist sympathizers.

That's the off-topic background of the phrase witch hunt. I'd also recommend considering the EDIT - Billy Wilder film (based on the stage play) "Stalag 17" for an example of how the mob mentality can lead to paranoia, hysteria, and false accusations against the innocent party while the guilty are hiding in plain sight. William Holden's character specifically. The mob was 100% convinced he was the one to blame and had all the proof they needed to label him the traitor causing all the problems in their barracks. But he was not guilty.

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« Reply #396 on: May 27, 2016, 06:23:18 PM »

Re OSD - afaik, Billy said that he got back because they found it was 2nd chance. So if he says sth. not according to rules in the future, it will be permanent.

Yeah, he was banned for a year +. At the time we were doing a '3 strikes and you're out' thing.
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« Reply #397 on: May 27, 2016, 06:33:35 PM »

Quote
We are told bannings are only enacted when the mods are in agreement (or Charles is summoned) yet Billy claimed he was unaware of why RDZ was banned.

Wait...what? Where did I say that? I must've had a major brain fart if I did, or was thinking of someone else other than runners...one of the reasons why his suspension was made permanent was because he had multiple accounts.

Fair call, my bad - you didn't say it verbatim so I've modified the post to say "yet Billy seemed to be unsure of why RDZ was banned" - in relation to the legendary "Asshole" banning, which you subsequently overturned further down; which may not have been the last banning as you've indicated.

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,22826.msg540696.html#msg540696
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« Reply #398 on: May 27, 2016, 06:41:42 PM »

Quote
We are told bannings are only enacted when the mods are in agreement (or Charles is summoned) yet Billy claimed he was unaware of why RDZ was banned.

Wait...what? Where did I say that? I must've had a major brain fart if I did, or was thinking of someone else other than runners...one of the reasons why his suspension was made permanent was because he had multiple accounts.

Fair call, my bad - you didn't say it verbatim so I've modified the post to say "yet Billy seemed to be unsure of why RDZ was banned" - in relation to the legendary "Asshole" banning, which you subsequently overturned further down; which may not have been the last banning as you've indicated.

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,22826.msg540696.html#msg540696

That refreshed my memory...yeah, I had lifted the ban, which was subsequently reinstated when it was discovered he had more than one account, including one used while he was suspended previously, which is supposed to result in a lifetime ban.
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« Reply #399 on: May 27, 2016, 06:48:02 PM »

LOL

Seriously, though, I was referring to people like Scott T, John, Nelson, Darian, ect.

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