Thread for arguments with or about moderation

[Cam Mott]

No offense to Charles, but I would have to see some actual evidence for a charge as serious as someone threatening a family (or potential libel or bullying), not just an accusation on a message board.

This is why I've been advocating for a list of every ban for the last three years that includes the details/evidence behind each of those bans (though I do realize the threat against Charles' family had nothing to do with a ban that I know of). But the AGD banning for sure. Since some people obviously don't trust Billy or Charles on this matter I think that bringing forth evidence would clear up a lot of speculation and distrust.

And heck, perhaps the mods don't have the time for such a list; so instead they could make a list of the most prominent members that were banned. Such as Runnersdialzero - I too have no idea why he was banned, and frankly I miss his presence on this board a lot.

Message boards are not a serious venue, but serious accusations are being made on a not serious venue.

It's not a matter of trust, it's a matter of serious claims requiring serious evidence imo.

PS. serious accusations also require the accused to be able to respond and face their accusers.

[HeyJude]

When a tread like this, which had ZERO chance of not becoming a bitch session to begin with, becomes the most talked about thread on a Beach Boy message board it just is further proof this board is going to hell. Lots of long time fans, who were there when the hits were new, who are no longer around for whatever reason, leave a board the board looses it's life. The knowledge they had is lost. Young new members come along, not a bad thing, but they were not there at the beginning. They don't know what went on or why something happened. The board then gets filled with all kinds of wrong, crazy "theories" about what happened and why. This board is suffering from that now. It will get worse as more time passes. You can't lose the "old timers" and prosper under these conditions. This board, like any board, needs them back. Threads they shared, full of knowledge, are being deleted..in talking to others who are still around more of these threads are going to be deleted.

I'd say a few things: I still think there are a good amount of posters and readers who don't even read this "Sandbox" section of the board. Seriously, prior to the Bennett discussion being moved here, I don't believe I had *ever* posted here (can't say for sure I suppose; it has been over a decade) and almost never had even read a post here. So I'm not sure any thread in the Sandbox, including this one, would be the "most talked about thread." It's a hot button thread to be sure, but a lot of threads like this tend to become circular things with the same dozen or so posters (sometimes less) going back and forth. I'm pretty sure a lot of regulars on the board don't even know or care about this thread.

As to fans that were there "when the hits were new", presumably meaning original/first generation fans, I of course value fans who can add their experiences from that era. But I think a good hunk of some of the best posters on this board are not first generation fans. Some of my favorite posters are quite a bit younger. I don't know anyone's precise age, but I know some of the best, more learned posters on this board got into fandom in the 70s or 80s; maybe even later. I don't think we need to lament the demographic of good posters that might be lost on this board; I would simply lament any good, knowledgeable posters leaving if that happened.

Yes, a large influx of super young newbie fans can be a challenging prospect, especially those who seem to want to shortcut whatever bits of knowledge they want to glean instead of going and reading all of the key books and spending a lot of time reading a lot of old threads here. But again, I want to see good, knowledgeable posters regardless of age or number of years as a fan.

[rab2591]

No offense to Charles, but I would have to see some actual evidence for a charge as serious as someone threatening a family (or potential libel or bullying), not just an accusation on a message board.

This is why I've been advocating for a list of every ban for the last three years that includes the details/evidence behind each of those bans (though I do realize the threat against Charles' family had nothing to do with a ban that I know of). But the AGD banning for sure. Since some people obviously don't trust Billy or Charles on this matter I think that bringing forth evidence would clear up a lot of speculation and distrust.

And heck, perhaps the mods don't have the time for such a list; so instead they could make a list of the most prominent members that were banned. Such as Runnersdialzero - I too have no idea why he was banned, and frankly I miss his presence on this board a lot.

Message boards are not a serious venue, but serious accusations are being made on a not serious venue.

It's not a matter of trust, it's a matter of serious claims requiring serious evidence imo.

PS. serious accusations also require the accused to be able to respond and face their accusers.

You may indeed be right, Cam. From the get-go I've been asking the moderators to release the evidence. Way too much speculation took place regarding that incident (and it was taken as yet another opportunity to rake Guitarfool over the coals), and there is obviously still a need for answers. There is an apprehension to release the evidence - perhaps it's due to any possible legal entanglements that could put the board in jeopardy...I have no idea.

As for AGD being given a chance to respond; I would love to hear an explanation as well.

[LostArt]

You can't lose the "old timers" and prosper under these conditions. This board, like any board, needs them back. Threads they shared, full of knowledge, are being deleted..in talking to others who are still around more of these threads are going to be deleted.

Threads are being deleted?  What threads?

[Mendota Heights]

You can't lose the "old timers" and prosper under these conditions. This board, like any board, needs them back. Threads they shared, full of knowledge, are being deleted..in talking to others who are still around more of these threads are going to be deleted.

Threads are being deleted?  What threads?

The ones that are gone.

[JK]

You can't lose the "old timers" and prosper under these conditions. This board, like any board, needs them back. Threads they shared, full of knowledge, are being deleted..in talking to others who are still around more of these threads are going to be deleted.

Threads are being deleted?  What threads?

The ones that are gone.

 

[Emily]

You can't lose the "old timers" and prosper under these conditions. This board, like any board, needs them back. Threads they shared, full of knowledge, are being deleted..in talking to others who are still around more of these threads are going to be deleted.

Threads are being deleted?  What threads?

I wondered about that too. What does that mean?

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Which threads?

[Micha]

Not much to add in this thread, just have to point out that Billy is such a great guy that people actually donate to help him in need. That says so much of Billy's general attitude towards people. Everybody wants him to stay.

Is it a witch hunt against GF? What is the definition of "witch hunt"? Unlike Billy, GF's attitude towards people who disagree with him is, in fact, improvable. Would the SS board a better place if he wasn't a moderator? Considering how things are at other places of the net at this point, very likely not. People who feel intimidated by GF would be more at ease, but the general tone on the board wouldn't change a bit.

[guitarfool2002]

"Witch Hunt" is a term referring to the Salem (Massachusetts) witch trials of the 1600's. If members of the community accused someone of being a witch, the end result was that person ended up dead. The accusation itself was enough proof that the accused was guilty of being a witch. They were given trials where any number of town fathers, leaders, clergy, and regular townspeople would line up and point to the accused, giving their proof to the "court" that they know the accused was guilty, they saw it with their own eyes. The evidence didn't need to be factual or even realistic, someone could say they saw the accused levitating in the woods and that was taken as all the proof needed. Then there were opportunities given to the accused to "confess", which similar to the Inquisition involved everything from being dunked and drowned in a pond or lake until an admission of guilt was made, to being burned at the stake.

It got revived again most infamously when Sen Joseph "Tailgunner Joe" McCarthy and any number of his government cohorts began calling dozens of citizens before Senate committees in the 1950's accusing them of being communists. Many of them were actively working in Hollywood and the entertainment industry. Many had their careers ruined by the simple fact they were accused of being communists, or traitors to the country - whatever they said to defend themselves meant little or nothing in light of the fact they were accused. Others were compelled to testify against their fellow citizens when confronted with various dossiers and case histories that had been compiled by J Edgar Hoover's office which amounted to blackmailing them into confirming the accusations.

It was the result of earlier cases which had been proven being taken to illogical extremes by zealots and those who were on a mission to destroy people they blamed for ruining the country. Once the precedent was set by earlier cases, it was open season on anyone who was a target to be taken out. And whatever defense they had meant nothing because the accusation itself was a guilty verdict by default.


"Communist Witch Hunt", "McCarthyism"...it was a modern version of the Salem witch trials where the accused was guilty because they were accused, facts or truth be damned. The worst end result of mob mentality, propaganda, and getting groups of people to believe whatever they are being led to believe in order to get a desired result - whether it was ridding the town of witches, or ridding the US and Hollywood of communist sympathizers.

That's the off-topic background of the phrase witch hunt. I'd also recommend considering the EDIT - Billy Wilder film (based on the stage play) "Stalag 17" for an example of how the mob mentality can lead to paranoia, hysteria, and false accusations against the innocent party while the guilty are hiding in plain sight. William Holden's character specifically. The mob was 100% convinced he was the one to blame and had all the proof they needed to label him the traitor causing all the problems in their barracks. But he was not guilty.

[rab2591]

And before people inevitably jump on Guitarfool for comparing this situation to those he listed above - I used the term 'witch hunt' to describe what's currently happening, not Guitarfool.

[Emily]

I would say it's far from off topic. I think GF is being used as a scapegoat (there was a guy on survivor who kept saying "escape goat" so the term now cracks me up every time). And I think some consider their suspicions to be evidence. I think the problems between two batches of posters, each batch being pretty relentless, run deep - way beyond anything to do with the mods, as Micha and Catbirdman implied.
Also, MarcellaHasDirtyFeet, you're not a douchebag.

[guitarfool2002]

That is true and worth clarifying too. It was given as historical background, replying to a question. The fact something like that would have probably needed to be clarified at some point speaks volumes about some attitudes on this board.

[guitarfool2002]

It is easy and convenient to find a scapegoat. For a variety of reasons it is vastly more difficult to identify the root causes, especially if they might be found in areas that would rather not be addressed by some.

[Rob Dean]

It is easy and convenient to find a scapegoat. For a variety of reasons it is vastly more difficult to identify the root causes, especially if they might be found in areas that would rather not be addressed by some.

SCAPEGOAT, it that the breed of goat that adorns the sleeve of Pet Sounds ? 

Just trying to inject some 'Good Homour' into this rather depressing thread

[LostArt]

It is easy and convenient to find a scapegoat. For a variety of reasons it is vastly more difficult to identify the root causes, especially if they might be found in areas that would rather not be addressed by some.

SCAPEGOAT, it that the breed of goat that adorns the sleeve of Pet Sounds ?  

Just trying to inject some 'Good Homour' into this rather depressing thread

No.  The Pet Sounds goats are ESCAPEGOATS.  You know, Let's Goat Away For Awhile, You Still Bleat In Me, and the rest.  

[KDS]

It is easy and convenient to find a scapegoat. For a variety of reasons it is vastly more difficult to identify the root causes, especially if they might be found in areas that would rather not be addressed by some.

SCAPEGOAT, it that the breed of goat that adorns the sleeve of Pet Sounds ? 

Just trying to inject some 'Good Homour' into this rather depressing thread

No.  The Pet Sounds goats are ESCAPEGOATS.  You Know, Let's Goat Away For Awhile, You Still Bleat In Me, and the rest. 

Goat Only Knows

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

That's so baaaaaaaad

[Rob Dean]

That's so baaaaaaaad

Sorry Billy, what have I started 

[KDS]

That's so baaaaaaaad

Sorry Billy, what have I started 

No Goat Show Boat.

Sorry, wrong album.

[Sam_BFC]

A few months or so ago, I tried to suggest with respect that Guitarfool step down as moderator, whilst taking care to highlight what an asset he is to the board when his "fan" hat is on.

I'm not sure how much good could be done at this stage if he did step down because so much damage has now been done (not caused by him exactly).

I said it before and I think Emily has also made a similar point, that moderators are more accountable than regular posters.  Some of the behaviour towards Guitarfool has of course been far worse than anything he has dished out.  For better or worse this has ostensibly validated Guitarfool's stance.

The fact is that if the community here at large could have got their act together then we wouldn't be having this conversation.  For me, moderators would ideally just be here to delete spam, ban deliberate trolls and uphold any essential rules that protect the board from a legal point of view.  Why on earth are any genuine Beach Boys fans even creating a situation where could be any suggestion of them being banned the first place.

Why not just have a poll/referendum so that the board can vote whether he remains a mod or not?  Remain or crexit...

[Sam_BFC]

.

[guitarfool2002]

When I agreed to do this, there was no condition of a vote except among the other mods and admins to approve or not. I do not think it is fair nor justified to call for a vote on my status in general unless similar votes can be called for to determine the status of any other member on this board.

When you consider there are at least three cases in this thread alone of either long-term current or previously banned members logging in and posting under completely different accounts from their primary (and most well known) accounts and names, it isn't hard to see how taking a vote on anyone's fate on this board has the potential to be rigged in many ways. Voting in "best album" polls is one thing, but when members are signing in and posting under multiple accounts (not just changing usernames), it isn't possible to judge anything fairly by popular vote except the informal polls, and I will not be subject to it, no matter what the results may be.

This is another case where the behavior of certain members who should know better or at least have more respect for the community have affected the way things are done or could be done. I will strongly reject a vote of any kind not even involving me, considering all of the abuses of the most simple foundations of signing up and posting to this board.

[filledeplage]

When I agreed to do this, there was no condition of a vote except among the other mods and admins to approve or not. I do not think it is fair nor justified to call for a vote on my status in general unless similar votes can be called for to determine the status of any other member on this board.

When you consider there are at least three cases in this thread alone of either long-term current or previously banned members logging in and posting under completely different accounts from their primary (and most well known) accounts and names, it isn't hard to see how taking a vote on anyone's fate on this board has the potential to be rigged in many ways. Voting in "best album" polls is one thing, but when members are signing in and posting under multiple accounts (not just changing usernames), it isn't possible to judge anything fairly by popular vote except the informal polls, and I will not be subject to it, no matter what the results may be.

This is another case where the behavior of certain members who should know better or at least have more respect for the community have affected the way things are done or could be done. I will strongly reject a vote of any kind not even involving me, considering all of the abuses of the most simple foundations of signing up and posting to this board.

Could not agree more.  It is like the tail wagging the dog.  We are guests on this board and are fortunate that someone has chosen to host this forum to discuss the music that brings this group together. 

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

When I agreed to do this, there was no condition of a vote except among the other mods and admins to approve or not. I do not think it is fair nor justified to call for a vote on my status in general unless similar votes can be called for to determine the status of any other member on this board.

I agree 100%