Thread for arguments with or about moderation

[KDS]

You're all making this much more difficult than it needs to be.  Treat Craig and Billy as if they were just normal posters.  Because they are.  They only put on their moderator hats when board rules are broken.  Don't break any board rules, and you shouldn't have to worry whether it's 'mod' Craig or 'board member' Craig, or Billy.  It's really as simple as that.

Well said

Sorry, I disagree.
LostArt said, "Don't break any board rules, and you shouldn't have to worry whether it's 'mod' Craig or 'board member' Craig, or Billy.  It's really as simple as that." I've heard the exact same thing said many times about the police, "don't break the law and you shouldn't have to worry about interactions with police" and I disagree. I think most people, if a police car pulled over to you and the officer started telling you something you did was wrong, would assume the police officer was speaking in an official capacity. I've been assuming the same of the mods. It seems I was wrong to do so, but I think it's a natural assumption and not as simple as LostArt says.

This is a message board, Emily.  This isn't the police.  Watch out when Billy puts his moderator cap on, though.   

Of course. It's an analogy. My point is that I think there's a base assumption, if there's a mod telling you you've done wrong, that they are telling you with the hat on. Maybe they should end their post with exactly THAT emoji when they are modding. That would be entertaining and useful.

I do know where you're coming from.  My dad was the chief of Police in a small Wisconsin town of about 1000 residents.  Everybody knew everyone else.  My dad did not have more than a few close friends in that little town, even while he was off-duty, and I believe it's because everyone else was afraid that they'd say or do the wrong thing. 

But I still don't believe that it is a good analogy.

Sounded like off-topic thinly veiled anti Police sentiments to me. 

Just my opinion. 

 

[Emily]

Maybe they should end their post with exactly THAT emoji when they are modding. That would be entertaining and useful.

Or use this emoji for threads like these

Point taken.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

You're all making this much more difficult than it needs to be.  Treat Craig and Billy as if they were just normal posters.  Because they are.  They only put on their moderator hats when board rules are broken.  Don't break any board rules, and you shouldn't have to worry whether it's 'mod' Craig or 'board member' Craig, or Billy.  It's really as simple as that.

Well said

Sorry, I disagree.
LostArt said, "Don't break any board rules, and you shouldn't have to worry whether it's 'mod' Craig or 'board member' Craig, or Billy.  It's really as simple as that." I've heard the exact same thing said many times about the police, "don't break the law and you shouldn't have to worry about interactions with police" and I disagree. I think most people, if a police car pulled over to you and the officer started telling you something you did was wrong, would assume the police officer was speaking in an official capacity. I've been assuming the same of the mods. It seems I was wrong to do so, but I think it's a natural assumption and not as simple as LostArt says.

I can see where you're coming from.

[Emily]

Sounded like off-topic thinly veiled anti Police sentiments to me. 

Just my opinion. 

 

Without regard to the quality of the analogy - it was purely meant to illustrate my on-topic point.

[Emily]

ok. I'm done here. I've learned what I needed to learn and I've had my say. I'm satisfied.

[KDS]

Sounded like off-topic thinly veiled anti Police sentiments to me. 

Just my opinion. 

 

Without regard to the quality of the analogy - it was purely meant to illustrate my on-topic point.

Sorry.  There's no such anti Police stuff on the internet these days, it's hard to tell sometimes. 

If the point you were making wasn't anti Police, then I apologize. 

[Emily]

Sounded like off-topic thinly veiled anti Police sentiments to me. 

Just my opinion. 

 

Without regard to the quality of the analogy - it was purely meant to illustrate my on-topic point.

Sorry.  There's no such anti Police stuff on the internet these days, it's hard to tell sometimes. 

If the point you were making wasn't anti Police, then I apologize. 

It honestly wasn't. It was just that we respond differently to a police officer telling us we've done wrong than we do to a non police officer telling us we've done wrong, unless something - familiarity, a disclaimer on the part of the officer, something - tells you that the officer is not talking in his official capacity.

[rab2591]

You two may make the final decision together, but you will never convince me that when threads start to breakdown, that Craig isn't influencing the action in that particular thread.

Then you *really* don't know the first thing about me, if you think I'm that easily influenced. If that were true, you'd have been gone a long time ago. Just an fyi.

To be honest Billy, I don't know a thing about you! Like you, I converse behind a computer and we really know nothing else about each other.  I should have left along with the mass migration at AGD's banning. I think Rab finally opened my eyes to who I am dealing with here, especially with Craig. Quite the wake up call for me, Billy. While I don't think you are that way (who really knows, huh?), I don't want to deal with the people in here whose fandom is that radical. So, like all the others who saw the writing on the wall, it is now my turn to take leave of this place. To my friends in here, good luck and I am sure we will see each other on the Net and converse through email. What was it that Brian & Mike wrote? "I gotta find a new place where the kids are hip." Adios!

When people call NPP a "steaming pile of dogshit" I think that is a dig at the hard work Brian put into the album, and thus a dig at Brian. When someone comes on this board to defend their statements that NPP was like Brian being a wheelchair bound grandpa being wheeled out and forced to make a speech at Thanksgiving dinner - I think that is personal against Brian because it goes against his integrity as a person. Music is very personal to Brian, and going after his music in a childish manner is going after Brian, in my opinion. Sorry if this ONE opinion is enough to drive you from the board lol. Also, what mass exodus are you referring to? Dempsey left the board, bgas? That's not a mass exodus.

You seem to blow every situation Guitarfool is involved with out of proportion because you have some creepish obsession with ousting him as a mod...it's really pathetic.

You're all making this much more difficult than it needs to be.  Treat Craig and Billy as if they were just normal posters.  Because they are.  They only put on their moderator hats when board rules are broken.  Don't break any board rules, and you shouldn't have to worry whether it's 'mod' Craig or 'board member' Craig, or Billy.  It's really as simple as that.

Agreed 100%. At this I bow out.

[KDS]

You two may make the final decision together, but you will never convince me that when threads start to breakdown, that Craig isn't influencing the action in that particular thread.

Then you *really* don't know the first thing about me, if you think I'm that easily influenced. If that were true, you'd have been gone a long time ago. Just an fyi.

To be honest Billy, I don't know a thing about you! Like you, I converse behind a computer and we really know nothing else about each other.  I should have left along with the mass migration at AGD's banning. I think Rab finally opened my eyes to who I am dealing with here, especially with Craig. Quite the wake up call for me, Billy. While I don't think you are that way (who really knows, huh?), I don't want to deal with the people in here whose fandom is that radical. So, like all the others who saw the writing on the wall, it is now my turn to take leave of this place. To my friends in here, good luck and I am sure we will see each other on the Net and converse through email. What was it that Brian & Mike wrote? "I gotta find a new place where the kids are hip." Adios!

When people call NPP a "steaming pile of dogshit" I think that is a dig at the hard work Brian put into the album, and thus a dig at Brian. When someone comes on this board to defend their statements that NPP was like Brian being a wheelchair bound grandpa being wheeled out and forced to make a speech at Thanksgiving dinner - I think that is personal against Brian because it goes against his integrity as a person. Music is very personal to Brian, and going after his music in a childish manner is going after Brian, in my opinion. Sorry if this ONE opinion is enough to drive you from the board lol. Also, what mass exodus are you referring to? Dempsey left the board, bgas? That's not a mass exodus.

You seem to blow every situation Guitarfool is involved with out of proportion because you have some creepish obsession with ousting him as a mod...it's really pathetic.

You're all making this much more difficult than it needs to be.  Treat Craig and Billy as if they were just normal posters.  Because they are.  They only put on their moderator hats when board rules are broken.  Don't break any board rules, and you shouldn't have to worry whether it's 'mod' Craig or 'board member' Craig, or Billy.  It's really as simple as that.

Agreed 100%. At this I bow out.

Granted its stronger language, but how is calling NPP a steaming pile of dogsh*t disrespecting Brian, but you calling GIOMH terrible just an opinion? 

Granted, I will acknowledge people saying NPP was made against Brian's will, or is a Joe Thomas album with Brian singing on it, can be disrespectful. 

But, just criticizing a song or an album, doesn't come across as disrespectful to me.

If you go to the restaurant, and order a dish that has an ingredient you don't like, and you say "this tastes like sh*t," its not disrespectful to the cook.  You just don't like the ingredient. 

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

You two may make the final decision together, but you will never convince me that when threads start to breakdown, that Craig isn't influencing the action in that particular thread.

Then you *really* don't know the first thing about me, if you think I'm that easily influenced. If that were true, you'd have been gone a long time ago. Just an fyi.

To be honest Billy, I don't know a thing about you! Like you, I converse behind a computer and we really know nothing else about each other.  I should have left along with the mass migration at AGD's banning. I think Rab finally opened my eyes to who I am dealing with here, especially with Craig. Quite the wake up call for me, Billy. While I don't think you are that way (who really knows, huh?), I don't want to deal with the people in here whose fandom is that radical. So, like all the others who saw the writing on the wall, it is now my turn to take leave of this place. To my friends in here, good luck and I am sure we will see each other on the Net and converse through email. What was it that Brian & Mike wrote? "I gotta find a new place where the kids are hip." Adios!

I hope you're leaving this thread and not the MB.

I took it as the board.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Granted its stronger language, but how is calling NPP a steaming pile of dogsh*t disrespecting Brian, but you calling GIOMH terrible just an opinion? 

Granted, I will acknowledge people saying NPP was made against Brian's will, or is a Joe Thomas album with Brian singing on it, can be disrespectful. 

But, just criticizing a song or an album, doesn't come across as disrespectful to me.

If you go to the restaurant, and order a dish that has an ingredient you don't like, and you say "this tastes like sh*t," its not disrespectful to the cook.  You just don't like the ingredient. 
[/quote]

personally speaking on the first point, I think it's the wording. As far as the opinion goes, no issue with that. Heck, I despise Imagination with a purple passion. Granted, if I ever did talk to Brian about it, I would be more tactful (although he may actually be more blunt that  I'd be on it!)

As far as the second thing, both of those are incorrect regarding NPP.

[The Shift]

One of the things that deters me from joining in some threads is this habit of posting unfeasibly long responses to points made in debates.

A few here have mentioned these lengthy responses to posts, and here's a perfect two-part example, that came, by chance (?) immediately after two other consecutive posts of yours, Craig.

I get to the stage where I just don't have enough hours left in my life to wade through these dissertations; this is, after all, an online message board, not a short story competition.

Okay, I'm perhaps being rude here maybe, but I interpret such lengthy posts as rude in themselves - they don't stifle debate so much as suffocate it. I mentioned it before, in a post (was it last year?) referring to "5,000 word responses" (or similar) and you reacted negatively and at the time I thought I'd been put on a naughty list – knowing you we're a mod, and given the prevailing atmosphere on the board, I feared you'd use that status to, well, get your own back, sooner or later.

Though that has never happened, rightly or wrongly that was my instinctive fear. I've never felt that way about any other mods (though I don't recall any others getting into the 5,000-word realm either!). It goes back to that "perception" thing that someone (was it Emily?) mentioned above.

Now, others here are also suggesting that these long-winded responses are irksome and I realise I'm not alone.

I know here's no rule about talking the hind legs off a donkey but – and I offer this as a constructive criticism – can I suggest that your posts are more concise, less verbose, so that it's easier for some of us to stay with a debate than nod off? At times I wonder whether its easier for you to suffocate an unwanted debate with inordinately long contributions, in the hope that it'll go away!

I hope this will be taken in the spirit in which it is intended; this thread seems like the place for airing issues, and the long posts thing is something that makes me feel uncomfortable on a board I regard as a second home - like the religious guy on the door who won't go away.

I have willingly stepped up and offered answers to the questions being asked, addressed issues being raised by offering my own opinions, and in general made myself available to have dialogues with board members who are posting in this thread, despite the fact that some are more personal in nature than having anything to do with the issues at hand.

If my answers and opinions are not agreed with, that's fine. If they're not liked, that's fine. It is an open forum and anyone is free to agree or disagree and post as such.

But making the way I post and the way I write into an issue as it has been done here is out of line. I'm not saying that as a mod, I'm saying that as my own self in case that needs to be clarified.

I've been posting to several related forums for well over a decade, under the same screen name. If something comes up that I'm passionate about, or something important enough to me that I want to offer more than a 20 word Twitter response, I write how I want to write.

To have this aspect of what I do now called out is out of line. I will not change the way I write, and whether intentional or not, to have to read the suggestion that the issue has now become the way I write versus the actual content or opinion I'm expressing is out of line.

Fair enough. Like I say, it was intended in the spirit on constructive criticism and I'd hoped it would be taken in that way but you've every right to defend yourself and reject the idea of taking the point on board.

You mentioned I was "out of order" three times in your reply; I'm going to have to assume that was poster GF talking and not moderator GF, and that the post won't be held against me in any future fracas on some kind of accumulator basis.

Nevertheless I'll be more restrained in future posts because that's my instinctive reaction.

[Cam Mott]

You two may make the final decision together, but you will never convince me that when threads start to breakdown, that Craig isn't influencing the action in that particular thread.

Then you *really* don't know the first thing about me, if you think I'm that easily influenced. If that were true, you'd have been gone a long time ago. Just an fyi.

We don't know all of the behind the scenes stuff, so all we know is what is on the board.  It might be the circumstances or wording of the notices.

In one thread, (all this is paraphrasing) one Mod said twice he was thinking about closing a thread to have time to think it through or some such and both times immediately/soon after a second Mod said he (first person "I", not "we" as in all the Mods) was enforcing a ban/timeout. It reads like while one Mod was thinking it through another Mod took unilateral action.

Also if a Mod is in a heated discussion as a board member and then makes an announcement in that thread as a Mod that his "adversary" is banned, it might create a suspicion I guess.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

We don't know all of the behind the scenes stuff, so all we know is what is on the board.  It might be the circumstances or wording of the notices.

That's understandable, but when I have stated repeatedly over and over again how it works, and *still* being called into question, well, do you understand *why* it is so offensive to me?

[The Shift]

You two may make the final decision together, but you will never convince me that when threads start to breakdown, that Craig isn't influencing the action in that particular thread.

Then you *really* don't know the first thing about me, if you think I'm that easily influenced. If that were true, you'd have been gone a long time ago. Just an fyi.

To be honest Billy, I don't know a thing about you! Like you, I converse behind a computer and we really know nothing else about each other.  I should have left along with the mass migration at AGD's banning. I think Rab finally opened my eyes to who I am dealing with here, especially with Craig. Quite the wake up call for me, Billy. While I don't think you are that way (who really knows, huh?), I don't want to deal with the people in here whose fandom is that radical. So, like all the others who saw the writing on the wall, it is now my turn to take leave of this place. To my friends in here, good luck and I am sure we will see each other on the Net and converse through email. What was it that Brian & Mike wrote? "I gotta find a new place where the kids are hip." Adios!

Damn…

[Alan Smith]

So, in relation to consistency in moderation, did we ever get a landing on GF reaming AGD repeatedly for offensive comments about Smiley board mods on the BBB board (Mike's Band thread, circa Dec 15) vs no apparent reaming of Debbie KL for making offensive comments about BBB board mods on the Smiley board (PS tour thread)?

Apologies if I missed it in the melee.

- A

I was defending myself against negative comments made on a forum where I'm not registered, where I never have posted, and in a situation where I had no idea it was even happening until someone mentioned it. I had every right to defend myself against both the attacks themselves, and since Andrew was one of the main contributors and the thread's starter on BBB and was also a member here, I had every right to call it out and defend myself on a board where I actually AM a registered member.

If Val wants to reply, she can do so. If a precedent is set by allowing something to happen, the consequences might not be agreeable but they're not unexpected.

Uh huh, so sounds like a "No".

I recall while "defending yourself" you wondered why the BBB admins and mods didn't shut down offending thread - if you still carry these convictions, don't let this kind of behaviour happen here (naming & bagging people on other boards).

[Cam Mott]

We don't know all of the behind the scenes stuff, so all we know is what is on the board.  It might be the circumstances or wording of the notices.

That's understandable, but when I have stated repeatedly over and over again how it works, and *still* being called into question, well, do you understand *why* it is so offensive to me?

That is also understandable but possibly inevitable in the current climate.

[GhostyTMRS]

I saw this thread and was hoping it was going to be a little more evenhanded rather than just a GF bash-fest.

The issue I have with moderation here is the posters who are allowed to continually derail threads with the same gripes or personal attacks on band members. Two groups I'm a part of on Facebook recently banned members who saw to it that every thread was another opportunity to restate for the millionth time how much they hate X,Y and Z for X, Y, and Z. Those group members were banned much to the relief of everyone, and civil discourse (and yes even heated discourse) was allowed to continue. If you think Brian sucks live or you hate Mike Love or think Bruce is a jerk or whatever, that's your perogative and I suppose stating it once is okay, but to pollute the board with that childish nonsense over and over again serves no purpose and doesn't further any discussion, and frankly should be grounds for banning.   

[GhostyTMRS]

And for the record, I've had nothing but pleasant experiences with GF in PM's hashing out a few mundane things. Same with Billy.

But with regard to what I posted earlier, and taking into consideration that all mods must unite to make the tough decisions, I feel that this is an area where you've let us all down repeatedly. Nothing personal.

[Cam Mott]

Show us what proof you have that members were banned as a result of arguing with me.

I'd like to know what rule the Cincinnati Kid broke to deserve a suspension in the "Why Do You Hate Mike Love?" thread and what the mod log shows in that regard.

[The LEGENDARY OSD]

You two may make the final decision together, but you will never convince me that when threads start to breakdown, that Craig isn't influencing the action in that particular thread.

Then you *really* don't know the first thing about me, if you think I'm that easily influenced. If that were true, you'd have been gone a long time ago. Just an fyi.

To be honest Billy, I don't know a thing about you! Like you, I converse behind a computer and we really know nothing else about each other.  I should have left along with the mass migration at AGD's banning. I think Rab finally opened my eyes to who I am dealing with here, especially with Craig. Quite the wake up call for me, Billy. While I don't think you are that way (who really knows, huh?), I don't want to deal with the people in here whose fandom is that radical. So, like all the others who saw the writing on the wall, it is now my turn to take leave of this place. To my friends in here, good luck and I am sure we will see each other on the Net and converse through email. What was it that Brian & Mike wrote? "I gotta find a new place where the kids are hip." Adios!

When people call NPP a "steaming pile of dogshit" I think that is a dig at the hard work Brian put into the album, and thus a dig at Brian. When someone comes on this board to defend their statements that NPP was like Brian being a wheelchair bound grandpa being wheeled out and forced to make a speech at Thanksgiving dinner - I think that is personal against Brian because it goes against his integrity as a person. Music is very personal to Brian, and going after his music in a childish manner is going after Brian, in my opinion. Sorry if this ONE opinion is enough to drive you from the board lol. Also, what mass exodus are you referring to? Dempsey left the board, bgas? That's not a mass exodus.

You seem to blow every situation Guitarfool is involved with out of proportion because you have some creepish obsession with ousting him as a mod...it's really pathetic.

You're all making this much more difficult than it needs to be.  Treat Craig and Billy as if they were just normal posters.  Because they are.  They only put on their moderator hats when board rules are broken.  Don't break any board rules, and you shouldn't have to worry whether it's 'mod' Craig or 'board member' Craig, or Billy.  It's really as simple as that.

Agreed 100%. At this I bow out.

Mass exodus Sounds like he's trying to convince himself that this time, and there have been at least two times he's said he's promised to leave for good, he's joining the people leaving here in droves. I think the mods here are the absolute best we've ever had. Look, if you can't deal with other people's opinions, then you're in the wrong place period. Thin skinned and looking for the perfect board that suits you to a T? I don't think so, but it far outdistances whatever is in second place.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Show us what proof you have that members were banned as a result of arguing with me.

I'd like to know what rule the Cincinnati Kid broke to deserve a suspension in the "Why Do You Hate Mike Love?" thread and what the mod log shows in that regard.

he was suspended for 7 days , Aug of last year. Rules were updated earlier this year.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

The issue I have with moderation here is the posters who are allowed to continually derail threads with the same gripes or personal attacks on band members.

Definitely understand that, which is one of the reasons why I have been more active lately, even though it got me into a bit of trouble at work. For me,the one thing that I absolutely draw the line at is when band members, i.e. not Mike & Brian, but the band members...anyway...attacks on them to me should be off-limits, if it's a case where said member was being attacked just because they're in so-and-so's band.

[Debbie KL]

Full disclosure on my relationship with Val: I thought that she was the real fan that you all claim her to be.  I invited her to a VIP champagne tour of the Pompeii exhibit at the British Museum in April 2013.  I had her to lunch at my hotel after.  She brought a little sunshine smiley-face pin and a copy of the BBB newsletter.  Fair enough.  Now about her total devotion to promoting Brian - here we go:
 
1)  I got a follow-up newsletter 2013/14 where there was an article from an associate of hers, Andrew Hickey, claiming that he’d heard from an "unimpeachable source" that he/she had seen a 5-word email proving that Brian’s “people” had ended the C-50 tour.  Third-hand hearsay, no less.  There are two serious problems with this.  First, a 5-word, out of context email proves absolutely nothing.  Secondly, if such an email was shared, it would have been a violation of BRI confidentiality.
 
2) Then, I discovered that Ms. Johnson-Howe had been prattling on about her medical background and how Brian was “frail” and shouldn’t be “forced to tour.”  She’s provided 12 years of this nonsense.  Clearly, he’s not been too frail to tour, nor was he forced to do so.  He’s made it clear that he’s there because he wants to tour.  Yet the story lives on in the ridiculous world of BBB.
 
3)  Then, last year when Brian had to postpone his UK tour, Ms. Johnson-Howe posted a public letter encouraging fans to sue Brian for their travel expenses due to the postponement.  I unfriended her on FB at that point.  9-10 months later, she realized this and challenged me.  I explained why I no longer wanted any association with her.  She insisted that she had sources inside BW management and knew the real reasons the tour was postponed.  I asked her who her sources were and her response was “too numerous to mention” and “that’s all you get.”
 
Given that Brian’s management, as far as I know consists of two key people, I felt pretty assured that she didn’t have that inside source and it made me wonder who exactly these sources are that she appears to serve.  I then blocked the woman on FB.  I found her promotion of the idea that Brian’s doctors and his wife of 21 years would send him out on the road against his wishes and health needs beyond offensive.
 
So my response to all of you calling for my head:  Is this a sweet, innocent woman who only has Brian Wilson’s best interests at heart, or a woman with some behind-the-scenes reasons to so blatantly cater to the M&B BB’s, as well as to so consistently attack BW?   And she wields total control over a message board that bears the BB’s name.  She posts freely on BW I know for certain, and I would assume on SS if she cares, to.
 
Yet, I’m a cowardly person posting here about what the woman is up to?  I don’t post on BBB, so here I am.  I welcome her response either here or on BW.com.  She certainly wasn’t the least bit shy on BW when she was promoting the M&B Tour there last Spring/Summer. 

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Then, last year when Brian had to postpone his UK tour, Ms. Johnson-Howe posted a public letter encouraging fans to sue Brian for their travel expenses due to the postponement

Whoa....yeah, that's not a good path to take, for sure