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Emily
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« on: May 22, 2016, 02:16:09 PM »

I think it would be nice if all this was in another thread. I'm not an on-topic purist, but I think this may be a thread that non-board/not really active fans will run into while looking for tour reviews/info. It would be good if their first impression isn't of a battle-zone.

How many fans do you think were lost through the recent years when they posted something and got either a public or private message calling them idiots or trolls or trying to correct something they said on the board? First impressions of this board have been formed, unfortunately, by actions and behavior well before this thread and which didn't involve people actively participating in it this week. If it means starting up another thread or something, by all means do it. But of all the topics that go in and out of being religiously "on topic", this is only one of them, and it's reacting to what came up several pages ago.

I'd love to read more reviews and comments on the live shows! Unfortunately that's limited by who feels like posting them and sharing those thoughts. It is great to see actual thoughts on the actual shows instead of requests for pre-sale codes and ticketing info that is best addressed to the ticket offices, ticket brokers, and venues hosting the shows, but all of those comments are not discouraged nor are they deleted or moved from a thread about the live shows themselves.

I'll start with this post. I wasn't taking sides, GF. Honestly, the weird digs at Melinda bug me; the weird suggestions that Brian Wilson hates touring bug me; the over-the-top anti-Mike-Love obsessiveness bugs me; the over-the-top pro-Mike-Love defensiveness bugs me; the calling people trolls or idiots bugs me; the 'payroll' thing bugs me; the complaints about moderators bug me; and the general all-around aggression bugs me; and the calling for people to be banned for any of the above bugs me.

I think any and all of the above has driven people away.

Normally I don't mind if a thread goes genially off-topic, and there's nothing ungenial about asking for info about ticketing or whatever. And being useful to fans interested in a show is a good thing. But waging a battle is not the same as asking for information or genial chit-chat. The thread that the current battle is being waged in is particularly public-facing and I think everyone battling in it is doing a disservice to Brian Wilson and a disservice to this site. I also think, as a mod, you should be particularly sensitive to the latter.

I'm not interested in engaging in the battle, but I think it should be removed from that thread and it should take place here.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2016, 02:19:38 PM by Emily » Logged
drbeachboy
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« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2016, 02:29:01 PM »

Thanks Emily. The discussions going on about moderation activities or lack thereof should be discussed in here and not ruin the enjoyment of the other threads. I agree with what you said above and is what I was talking about when I mentioned consistency
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The Brianista Prayer

Oh Brian
Thou Art In Hawthorne,
Harmonied Be Thy name
Your Kingdom Come,
Your Steak Well Done,
On Stage As It Is In Studio,
Give Us This Day, Our Shortenin' Bread
And Forgive Us Our Bootlegs,
As We Also Have Forgiven Our Wife And Managers,
And Lead Us Not Into Kokomo,
But Deliver Us From Mike Love.
Amen.  ---hypehat
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« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2016, 03:05:49 PM »

I like this idea a lot...thanks Emily.
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« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2016, 03:09:44 PM »

It's too bad those who were calling for such a thread either missed or ignored the explanations and clarifications given as recently as early this past week and going back at least 6 months or more. So, hammer away in spite of the explanations already given. Should be fun.
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Emily
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« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2016, 03:21:03 PM »

Again, GF, I'm not taking sides. I really don't care about the explanations or about whatever the original problem was that called for explanations. I just think that it's uninteresting and, more importantly, unpleasant for people looking for Brian Wilson tour commentary or information to encounter pages of argument, as Iain Lee said, without regard to who's right or who's wrong.
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« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2016, 03:31:25 PM »

Again, GF, I'm not taking sides. I really don't care about the explanations or about whatever the original problem was that called for explanations. I just think that it's uninteresting and, more importantly, unpleasant for people looking for Brian Wilson tour commentary or information to encounter pages of argument, as Iain Lee said, without regard to who's right or who's wrong.

And my point is there is one very recent example where there were people coming to the board to find info on, discuss, vent, and share thoughts on the unfortunate developments with Scott B that happened recently. Somehow in that discussion, where I did not post a word, the issues of my moderation of this board came up. Did anyone have a problem with that discussion that broke out being off topic from where fans were coming to get info and discuss those issues related to Scott?

And beyond that, direct and definitive replies were given in that thread to the same questions about me as a moderator to some of the same people who were asking the same questions a week later in the BW tour thread. I'll copy and repost them here. Basically the record has been set straight time after time, yet some either do not accept the words of the moderators and in some cases the board's admin, or just want to keep harping on the issue in hopes I will or won't do something that I'm alleged to have been doing regarding banning people, or other mod issues. It may not be the answer some want to hear, but it's the truth, unless some feel that Charles, Billy, me, and months ago Klaas when he was a mod are simply lying about the whole thing.

Which is it?
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"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
the captain
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« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2016, 03:31:41 PM »

In my opinion, the incessant whining and complaining about moderators is pathetic. Those of you who engage in it: sorry. But seriously. It's just not important. No moderator (to my knowledge) has ever done anything particularly bad. People are people, so probably inadvertently someone was treated differently than someone else. I don't care. This is just a message board. It's a pastime.

Far, far, far, far, far worse than any possible inequitable treatment of members is the incessant, novel-length whining about said inequitable treatment of members that ends up polluting every single fucking thread. I mean, the complaining that only Brianistas or anti-Brianistas are favored or banned or whatever? Grow the f*** up! It's idiotic, not to mention childish. ("Dad, he's on my side." "If you two don't shut up, I'm going to turn this car around...")

Whatever. I've talked sh*t about every member of the band on some issue or another. I've never been intimidated (which is funny to even imagine, being intimidated by a message board mod!), warned, banned. (I think somebody warned me once, years ago, for being an asshole. But that's fair, since I'm an asshole.)

Feel free to ban me for my thoughts on the subject, mods. I won't complain about it. Grin

Oh, and I think the mods are fine. Actually I'm not sure who they are, aside from Billy and guitarfool2002. It doesn't much occur to me.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2016, 03:32:33 PM by the captain » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2016, 03:37:43 PM »

months ago Klaas when he was a mod

Actually I'm not sure who they are, aside from Billy and guitarfool2002.

Speaking of which, when will replacements be found for Klass and/or Lowbacca?
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« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2016, 03:48:23 PM »

Quote
Somehow in that discussion, where I did not post a word, the issues of my moderation of this board came up. Did anyone have a problem with that discussion that broke out being off topic from where fans were coming to get info and discuss those issues related to Scott?

I certainly had and continue to have an issue with that...I unfortunately have been dealing with my own issues, but I did have a problem with it clogging up various threads, like the Bennett thread and now the Brian tour thread. So, I do support the creation of this thread, and just personally speaking, if I see it pop up on the main board again, I'm moving the discussion here and issuing a warning. And yeah, there's a lot of stuff that needs to be hashed out, but I'll be damned if I'm going to let it take the focus off of Brian any longer ,because it ALWAYS seems to happen in a thread devoted to whatever Brian's doing.

And to add to that real quick, I know the Mike/Bruce band threads get hijacked too, and I'm looking at that as well, but I'm speaking specifically about the Brian threads turning into moderator attack threads.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2016, 03:50:56 PM by ♩♬ Beef Skittles ♯♫♩ » Logged

RIP Daniel Dale Johnston ( 1961-2019)
_______________________________________________________
Fear 2 Stop: eating all of Elon Musk's nightmares as he sleeps

"I've never heard such ear-pleasing screams before!"
___________________________________________________


"I’d rather die than owe the hospital Till I get old/ I get adrenalin straight to the heart/ like Uma Thurman overdosing kick-start/ Anaphylactic and super hypocondriactic "

^ This fake quote brought to you by "Oyster Pudding™ ....the Pudding with the Pearl inside!"
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« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2016, 04:07:21 PM »

Quote
Somehow in that discussion, where I did not post a word, the issues of my moderation of this board came up. Did anyone have a problem with that discussion that broke out being off topic from where fans were coming to get info and discuss those issues related to Scott?

I certainly had and continue to have an issue with that...I unfortunately have been dealing with my own issues, but I did have a problem with it clogging up various threads, like the Bennett thread and now the Brian tour thread. So, I do support the creation of this thread, and just personally speaking, if I see it pop up on the main board again, I'm moving the discussion here and issuing a warning. And yeah, there's a lot of stuff that needs to be hashed out, but I'll be damned if I'm going to let it take the focus off of Brian any longer ,because it ALWAYS seems to happen in a thread devoted to whatever Brian's doing.

And to add to that real quick, I know the Mike/Bruce band threads get hijacked too, and I'm looking at that as well, but I'm speaking specifically about the Brian threads turning into moderator attack threads.

And the issue I had was the same people then posting the same questions in the BW tour thread that had already been addressed and answered to a point where the answers should have been definitive enough to end all of it...yet the same questions that were answered a week ago came up again, today, and along with that I take heat this time for going off topic in addressing some of them? If this on-topic/off-topic issue were such a pressing issue to warrant another thread, where was the outrage during the Bennett thread or any one of dozens of threads that go off topic? No one voiced a concern there. They also got answers that seem to have been ignored.

It wouldn't seem be an issue either way, and not only were the same questions that were answered being raised again as if the answers given didn't matter at all, but going "off topic" in a discussion became a major issue as soon as I was accused of being the one to do it? How about the threads I had absolutely no part of, not even posting a single word that veered off topic into challenging the moderators...different standards?
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"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
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« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2016, 04:16:27 PM »

Well all of it, really...all of it should go here, and probably should have in the first place, but can't change that now. And speaking strictly for myself, it's not that it became a major issue when you were accused, it's more of a 'oh God, not this again'. Frankly speaking, some of the posts also made it seem like I'm not doing anything, or that I have no say in anything (which is bullshit), and I got tired of seeing that, too. So yeah, all of it can go here, and I'll be pleased as punch if it never shows up in any other thread again.

Just my two cents.
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RIP Daniel Dale Johnston ( 1961-2019)
_______________________________________________________
Fear 2 Stop: eating all of Elon Musk's nightmares as he sleeps

"I've never heard such ear-pleasing screams before!"
___________________________________________________


"I’d rather die than owe the hospital Till I get old/ I get adrenalin straight to the heart/ like Uma Thurman overdosing kick-start/ Anaphylactic and super hypocondriactic "

^ This fake quote brought to you by "Oyster Pudding™ ....the Pudding with the Pearl inside!"
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« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2016, 04:24:06 PM »

My thought is how much damage has already been done? I've been labeled the reason why the board went to hell, been accused of banning people I don't like or don't agree with on my own whims, been accused of bullying other moderators, hell I've been accused of any number of things that have been refuted time and time again, and also been the object of a campaign among certain board members to discredit me that has reached who knows how many people, in spite of the fact that the claims behind it were false.

How's that for fun times? Even that has been chalked up to being my fault, or suggesting "I deserved it" or something.

Fun times indeed. It's a shame the truth can't be accepted as the answer which should end all of this stuff. It should have ended months ago.
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"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
Emily
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« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2016, 05:03:49 PM »

Again, GF, I'm not taking sides. I really don't care about the explanations or about whatever the original problem was that called for explanations. I just think that it's uninteresting and, more importantly, unpleasant for people looking for Brian Wilson tour commentary or information to encounter pages of argument, as Iain Lee said, without regard to who's right or who's wrong.

And my point is there is one very recent example where there were people coming to the board to find info on, discuss, vent, and share thoughts on the unfortunate developments with Scott B that happened recently. Somehow in that discussion, where I did not post a word, the issues of my moderation of this board came up. Did anyone have a problem with that discussion that broke out being off topic from where fans were coming to get info and discuss those issues related to Scott?

And beyond that, direct and definitive replies were given in that thread to the same questions about me as a moderator to some of the same people who were asking the same questions a week later in the BW tour thread. I'll copy and repost them here. Basically the record has been set straight time after time, yet some either do not accept the words of the moderators and in some cases the board's admin, or just want to keep harping on the issue in hopes I will or won't do something that I'm alleged to have been doing regarding banning people, or other mod issues. It may not be the answer some want to hear, but it's the truth, unless some feel that Charles, Billy, me, and months ago Klaas when he was a mod are simply lying about the whole thing.

Which is it?
GF, I noticed the issue in the Scott thread too. I hadn't yet reached the point that I was entirely fed up. But I have now. I am not targeting this at you alone. I'm targeting it at ANYONE engaged in this ongoing meta-struggle. Please keep board politics out of the topical threads. If people are fighting about Mike Love in a Mike Love thread, well, it's still tiresome but there's nothing to be done about it. But to argue about moderation in a BW or ML thread can be redirected. I think if people bring up board politics in a BB topic thread, before you respond with explanations, you should redirect the conversation here. Then explain away.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2016, 05:16:50 PM by Emily » Logged
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« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2016, 05:08:21 PM »

Well all of it, really...all of it should go here, and probably should have in the first place, but can't change that now. And speaking strictly for myself, it's not that it became a major issue when you were accused, it's more of a 'oh God, not this again'. Frankly speaking, some of the posts also made it seem like I'm not doing anything, or that I have no say in anything (which is bullshit), and I got tired of seeing that, too. So yeah, all of it can go here, and I'll be pleased as punch if it never shows up in any other thread again.

Just my two cents.
Billy, it got restarted in there by Craig, not any of us. He had to answer for his buddy Debbie, instead of letting her answer for herself. Then she had to defend him from the Conspirators. No one brought that up but Craig. I'm sorry Billy, but Craig doesn't take criticism very well, whether for his personal views or those of being a mod. The biggest difference between the two of you is that, Billy, you know when you have to take a neutral stance when you do your moderating duties, where Craig will take sides and fight. I will tell you, this is why some folks think he is biased towards some posters and unbiased with others. He is too polarizing a figure to have everybody on board with him moderating. As you can see, I am not the only one bringing this stuff up. People who rarely ever say anything, are having issues with his moderating. When feuds break out, no matter your personal preference a moderator needs to step in to get things under control, not jump into the fray. Folks see that and question what is going on. It may all be a perception problem, but if it lingers, it will continue to be a problem that won't go away easily.
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The Brianista Prayer

Oh Brian
Thou Art In Hawthorne,
Harmonied Be Thy name
Your Kingdom Come,
Your Steak Well Done,
On Stage As It Is In Studio,
Give Us This Day, Our Shortenin' Bread
And Forgive Us Our Bootlegs,
As We Also Have Forgiven Our Wife And Managers,
And Lead Us Not Into Kokomo,
But Deliver Us From Mike Love.
Amen.  ---hypehat
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« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2016, 05:35:25 PM »

Well all of it, really...all of it should go here, and probably should have in the first place, but can't change that now. And speaking strictly for myself, it's not that it became a major issue when you were accused, it's more of a 'oh God, not this again'. Frankly speaking, some of the posts also made it seem like I'm not doing anything, or that I have no say in anything (which is bullshit), and I got tired of seeing that, too. So yeah, all of it can go here, and I'll be pleased as punch if it never shows up in any other thread again.

Just my two cents.
Billy, it got restarted in there by Craig, not any of us. He had to answer for his buddy Debbie, instead of letting her answer for herself. Then she had to defend him from the Conspirators. No one brought that up but Craig. I'm sorry Billy, but Craig doesn't take criticism very well, whether for his personal views or those of being a mod. The biggest difference between the two of you is that, Billy, you know when you have to take a neutral stance when you do your moderating duties, where Craig will take sides and fight. I will tell you, this is why some folks think he is biased towards some posters and unbiased with others. He is too polarizing a figure to have everybody on board with him moderating. As you can see, I am not the only one bringing this stuff up. People who rarely ever say anything, are having issues with his moderating. When feuds break out, no matter your personal preference a moderator needs to step in to get things under control, not jump into the fray. Folks see that and question what is going on. It may all be a perception problem, but if it lingers, it will continue to be a problem that won't go away easily.

I restarted it, just like you thought I banned Andrew, I banned Mikie, and I did any number of things that I or any one person here didn't do alone. I don't answer for anyone, whatever that was supposed to mean is way off base.

if you respect Billy as much as you say, why don't you listen to what he has already said and accept as the truth what he has repeatedly said to you about all of these moderating issues you keep bringing up? I will repost them here just to make sure it's on the record.

You're blaming me for not stepping in somewhere when there have been upwards of four mods registered as mods since I joined, and you hold me alone responsible for not taking action you'd like to see taken? Not just that, but after being told by at least three of those mods that it is indeed a consensus among the mods before action is taken, yet still point your finger of blame only at me?

Yes, I absolutely will challenge that because it's ridiculous.
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« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2016, 05:46:12 PM »

Again, GF, I'm not taking sides. I really don't care about the explanations or about whatever the original problem was that called for explanations. I just think that it's uninteresting and, more importantly, unpleasant for people looking for Brian Wilson tour commentary or information to encounter pages of argument, as Iain Lee said, without regard to who's right or who's wrong.

And my point is there is one very recent example where there were people coming to the board to find info on, discuss, vent, and share thoughts on the unfortunate developments with Scott B that happened recently. Somehow in that discussion, where I did not post a word, the issues of my moderation of this board came up. Did anyone have a problem with that discussion that broke out being off topic from where fans were coming to get info and discuss those issues related to Scott?

And beyond that, direct and definitive replies were given in that thread to the same questions about me as a moderator to some of the same people who were asking the same questions a week later in the BW tour thread. I'll copy and repost them here. Basically the record has been set straight time after time, yet some either do not accept the words of the moderators and in some cases the board's admin, or just want to keep harping on the issue in hopes I will or won't do something that I'm alleged to have been doing regarding banning people, or other mod issues. It may not be the answer some want to hear, but it's the truth, unless some feel that Charles, Billy, me, and months ago Klaas when he was a mod are simply lying about the whole thing.

Which is it?
GF, I noticed the issue in the Scott thread too. I hadn't yet reached the point that I was entirely fed up. But I have now. I am not targeting this at you alone. I'm targeting it at ANYONE engaged in this ongoing meta-struggle. Please keep board politics out of the topical threads. If people are fighting about Mike Love in a Mike Love thread, well, it's still tiresome but there's nothing to be done about it. But to argue about moderation in a BW or ML thread can be redirected. I think if people bring up board politics in a BB topic thread, before you respond with explanations, you should redirect the conversation here. Then explain away.

Consider this under the "damned if you do, damned if you don't" category. I actually did make this an issue in a discussion I was involved in (no rules against moderators engaging in discussions and offering opinions, if there were we'd all be banned), and as a result there were complaints up to and including hints of "misbehavior" based on this, and what rules should be in place for moderators who misbehave.

Start at the top of this page I'm linking to, scan through and tell me that what I did there and took criticism for doing is along the same lines as what is being asked for now in terms of trying to keep political and personal issues out of threads so they stay on topic to the discussion.

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,23292.600.html

For making a post about staying on topic there, I caught sh*t for it. For not making a post about staying on topic, I caught sh*t for it to the point of people posting followups about misbehaving mods. For engaging in trading opinions and debates as all mods since the board started have done, I catch sh*t for it.

DIYD, DIYD.

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"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
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« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2016, 06:00:00 PM »

Specifically to Dr Beach Boy, here is a link to review. Start at the top and it;s only two pages to scan through. I'll post specific quotes as well.

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,23778.375.html

Jason took sides all the time. Where was the outrage from your quarters there?

Yup, without apology. Of course, it was part and parcel of being a FAN first and a moderator of a message board a very distant second. Last time I checked I also didn't ban or censure members for insulting or disagreeing with me (gotta take whatcha dish out, y'know). Your argument, I dare say, has negligible merit.

Actually it has considerable merit, because GF is the same way (fan first, and also hasn't banned or censured members for insulting or disagreeing), and is catching sh*t for it when he really shouldn't be. Just because someone is a mod doesn't mean they all of a sudden stop being passionate. That was Andy's point!
Well some folks who were banned feel that their banning came as a result of disagreeing and/or arguing with Craig. Folks feel they have to tread lightly with him. They feel if he hasn't done the banning directly, then he influenced the mod(s) who did so. A question for you Billy, do the folks who are banned get a full explanation of why and by who they were banned? If Craig is getting a bad rap, is it due to a lack of communication?


Nobody has been banned for disagreeing with Craig, nor has he EVER  influenced me to do so. I take EXTREME exception to that...I am not a freaking puppet.  If anybody here does think that way, I strongly suggest they get that image out of their head, because it is as wrong as it gets. Whenever someone is banned, there is a spot for the moderator who has performed the ban to leave a comment as to why the member is banned, which is displayed to the member when they attempt to log in or post.
Why on Earth would you take exception to that? You always say that it is never one person making the decision, that you make it as a team. You all must write to each other, compare notes, get each other's take on what went down, evidence, etc.. The folks I have spoke with say they did not receive a full explanation and in at least one case did not receive a response to multiple emails sent giving their side of the situation. So for those that no longer have a voice in here and just for general knowledge about how things work in here, is why I posed the question.


Well, because
Quote
Well some folks who were banned feel that their banning came as a result of disagreeing and/or arguing with Craig
is not true (not the people feeling that way part, the actual inference here is what I'm referring to). And yes, we discuss it as a team (duo, now) but the way it was worded made it sound like I was having my arm twisted, or that he was calling the shots and I was just here for sh*t/grins.

As far as not responding to emails... if you are referring to Nicko, it is because at first I did respond to emails to him, until it was uncovered that he was a previously banned member posting under a different name, and the email address belonged to a Facebook page that was...um...extremely fake, and he had been banned for similar issues at bw.com as he was here.  If you are referring to Mikie, I did respond to emails, although after a while I quit.  If you are referring to runnersdialzero, I never got an email but I did get a PM from another member asking me to reconsider. At the time we still had 3 mods; it was decided to let the ban stand.  If it is anybody else, I never got the emails.


Jason took sides all the time. Where was the outrage from your quarters there?

Yup, without apology. Of course, it was part and parcel of being a FAN first and a moderator of a message board a very distant second. Last time I checked I also didn't ban or censure members for insulting or disagreeing with me (gotta take whatcha dish out, y'know). Your argument, I dare say, has negligible merit.

Actually it has considerable merit, because GF is the same way (fan first, and also hasn't banned or censured members for insulting or disagreeing), and is catching sh*t for it when he really shouldn't be. Just because someone is a mod doesn't mean they all of a sudden stop being passionate. That was Andy's point!




Do you respect Billy's word and what he said specifically in reply to your issues in those quotes, Dr Beach Boy?

Short of getting me to somehow quit the board, I don't know how much beyond what Billy, me, and all mods previously have already said will be enough for you to get the point and stop harping on this stuff. As it stands, the quotes are posted above and others can be provided as well if you choose not to accept or ignore what is being said there, and I'm not quitting nor will I stop offering opinions and engaging in discussions since no other mod past or present has had a similar restriction or condition.

Believing and accepting the words of those who you claim respect for can matter more than just expressing your respect.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2016, 06:02:27 PM by guitarfool2002 » Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
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« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2016, 06:20:25 PM »

Well all of it, really...all of it should go here, and probably should have in the first place, but can't change that now. And speaking strictly for myself, it's not that it became a major issue when you were accused, it's more of a 'oh God, not this again'. Frankly speaking, some of the posts also made it seem like I'm not doing anything, or that I have no say in anything (which is bullshit), and I got tired of seeing that, too. So yeah, all of it can go here, and I'll be pleased as punch if it never shows up in any other thread again.

Just my two cents.
Billy, it got restarted in there by Craig, not any of us. He had to answer for his buddy Debbie, instead of letting her answer for herself. Then she had to defend him from the Conspirators. No one brought that up but Craig. I'm sorry Billy, but Craig doesn't take criticism very well, whether for his personal views or those of being a mod. The biggest difference between the two of you is that, Billy, you know when you have to take a neutral stance when you do your moderating duties, where Craig will take sides and fight. I will tell you, this is why some folks think he is biased towards some posters and unbiased with others. He is too polarizing a figure to have everybody on board with him moderating. As you can see, I am not the only one bringing this stuff up. People who rarely ever say anything, are having issues with his moderating. When feuds break out, no matter your personal preference a moderator needs to step in to get things under control, not jump into the fray. Folks see that and question what is going on. It may all be a perception problem, but if it lingers, it will continue to be a problem that won't go away easily.

Longtime lurker, extremely infrequent poster. Just had to say, while it may not be popular to say it out loud, I agree with you Dr BeachBoy and it took guts to say it, though Im sure you'll get flak for doing so.

GF, you seem like a nice guy overall, so I dont want this to sound like bullying, personal attacks or ganging up on you. But I think you do tend to take things too personally and fan the flames rather than put them out when a mod ought to do the latter. If you were more willing to take criticisms, listen, not come down hard against those you disagree with and stay out of the petty feuds I think you and other posters would be much happier. And no offense, but the way you just responded to Dr Beach Boy just now kinda proves that point. I know my opinion around here means jack squat but...I digress.
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« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2016, 06:29:34 PM »

Again, GF, I'm not taking sides. I really don't care about the explanations or about whatever the original problem was that called for explanations. I just think that it's uninteresting and, more importantly, unpleasant for people looking for Brian Wilson tour commentary or information to encounter pages of argument, as Iain Lee said, without regard to who's right or who's wrong.

And my point is there is one very recent example where there were people coming to the board to find info on, discuss, vent, and share thoughts on the unfortunate developments with Scott B that happened recently. Somehow in that discussion, where I did not post a word, the issues of my moderation of this board came up. Did anyone have a problem with that discussion that broke out being off topic from where fans were coming to get info and discuss those issues related to Scott?

And beyond that, direct and definitive replies were given in that thread to the same questions about me as a moderator to some of the same people who were asking the same questions a week later in the BW tour thread. I'll copy and repost them here. Basically the record has been set straight time after time, yet some either do not accept the words of the moderators and in some cases the board's admin, or just want to keep harping on the issue in hopes I will or won't do something that I'm alleged to have been doing regarding banning people, or other mod issues. It may not be the answer some want to hear, but it's the truth, unless some feel that Charles, Billy, me, and months ago Klaas when he was a mod are simply lying about the whole thing.

Which is it?
GF, I noticed the issue in the Scott thread too. I hadn't yet reached the point that I was entirely fed up. But I have now. I am not targeting this at you alone. I'm targeting it at ANYONE engaged in this ongoing meta-struggle. Please keep board politics out of the topical threads. If people are fighting about Mike Love in a Mike Love thread, well, it's still tiresome but there's nothing to be done about it. But to argue about moderation in a BW or ML thread can be redirected. I think if people bring up board politics in a BB topic thread, before you respond with explanations, you should redirect the conversation here. Then explain away.

Consider this under the "damned if you do, damned if you don't" category. I actually did make this an issue in a discussion I was involved in (no rules against moderators engaging in discussions and offering opinions, if there were we'd all be banned), and as a result there were complaints up to and including hints of "misbehavior" based on this, and what rules should be in place for moderators who misbehave.

Start at the top of this page I'm linking to, scan through and tell me that what I did there and took criticism for doing is along the same lines as what is being asked for now in terms of trying to keep political and personal issues out of threads so they stay on topic to the discussion.

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,23292.600.html

For making a post about staying on topic there, I caught sh*t for it. For not making a post about staying on topic, I caught sh*t for it to the point of people posting followups about misbehaving mods. For engaging in trading opinions and debates as all mods since the board started have done, I catch sh*t for it.

DIYD, DIYD.


I found that thread super confusing at the time, and it's still confusing. I also remember wishing there wasn't political sniping.
I'm not sure what happened there, but it's true that you will be damned by someone for doing almost anything. That's how it is. And I wish people here felt a little more shy about announcing their problems with each other. But they're not. And you're never (no one's ever) going to convince everyone not to have a problem with you. Everyone has someone who has a problem with them. And once someone, rightly or wrongly, does have a problem with you, it's really hard to make them change their mind.
My dad always said (echoing something in the captain's comment above), "it takes two to argue." Because he didn't really care who started it. He just wanted it to end. And I was furious when he said that because it's not fair to be blamed equally with the person who provoked it and, while it does take two to argue, it really only takes one to provoke an argument. But I see my dad's point now. There are two issues: the provocation and the argument. I agree that you've been provoked. That's one problem. The other problem is the argument. As a moderator, you need to redirect the argument to the sandbox.

Then as a person, go ahead and respond to the provocation if you want (though I'm not sure it will get you anything but high blood pressure.)

My problem is not with your engagement in an argument. It's with the location of their complaints, and the location of your response to their complaints. I'm pleased that drbeachboy brought his recent comment here, and I think that whenever anyone wants to make a critical comment about someone's behavior (as opposed to someone's on-topic opinion), it should be brought to the sandbox. Got a complaint about bullying? Sandbox it. About trolling? Sandbox it. I think that would be a great board policy.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I'm adding: My perception is that there are two distinct issues - one is your activities as a moderator - banning and the like. With that, I think it's clear that you, GF, are one of a team making decisions and that people making comments about you being solely responsible for or spearheading those decisions are mistaken. Whether they will ever be convinced of that, I don't know.

The other is that you are very blunt, assertive and have strong opinions. There's nothing inherently wrong in any of that, and I usually like those qualities when they are tempered with some tact and a lot of intelligence. However, when one disagrees with a blunt, assertive and strongly opinioned moderator, one might feel silenced or like they'll get into "trouble" for stating their contrary opinion. I think a mod needs to make clear, repeatedly, when engaging in debate that the mod is not being a mod while debating but is just being another poster. I think a mod also needs to cultivate a sense that, while he has his opinions, he's strictly neutral when it comes to interacting with and judging posters.
It's kind of like being a corporate manager - you can't really entirely be 'one of the guys.' You have to make sure everyone feels that they are equal in your view. Showing a particular liking for one  or showing irritation with another is going to cause people to think you have favorites, even if you don't. Even if that particular liking or that irritation was a passing thing that doesn't have an effect on your general judgment, others are going to think it does. They'll feel sensitive to it. And they'll nurse that sensitivity until it's a grievance. It's not fair but it's how people are.

« Last Edit: May 22, 2016, 06:48:41 PM by Emily » Logged
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« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2016, 07:01:58 PM »

Well all of it, really...all of it should go here, and probably should have in the first place, but can't change that now. And speaking strictly for myself, it's not that it became a major issue when you were accused, it's more of a 'oh God, not this again'. Frankly speaking, some of the posts also made it seem like I'm not doing anything, or that I have no say in anything (which is bullshit), and I got tired of seeing that, too. So yeah, all of it can go here, and I'll be pleased as punch if it never shows up in any other thread again.

Just my two cents.
Billy, it got restarted in there by Craig, not any of us. He had to answer for his buddy Debbie, instead of letting her answer for herself. Then she had to defend him from the Conspirators. No one brought that up but Craig. I'm sorry Billy, but Craig doesn't take criticism very well, whether for his personal views or those of being a mod. The biggest difference between the two of you is that, Billy, you know when you have to take a neutral stance when you do your moderating duties, where Craig will take sides and fight. I will tell you, this is why some folks think he is biased towards some posters and unbiased with others. He is too polarizing a figure to have everybody on board with him moderating. As you can see, I am not the only one bringing this stuff up. People who rarely ever say anything, are having issues with his moderating. When feuds break out, no matter your personal preference a moderator needs to step in to get things under control, not jump into the fray. Folks see that and question what is going on. It may all be a perception problem, but if it lingers, it will continue to be a problem that won't go away easily.

I restarted it, just like you thought I banned Andrew, I banned Mikie, and I did any number of things that I or any one person here didn't do alone. I don't answer for anyone, whatever that was supposed to mean is way off base.

if you respect Billy as much as you say, why don't you listen to what he has already said and accept as the truth what he has repeatedly said to you about all of these moderating issues you keep bringing up? I will repost them here just to make sure it's on the record.

You're blaming me for not stepping in somewhere when there have been upwards of four mods registered as mods since I joined, and you hold me alone responsible for not taking action you'd like to see taken? Not just that, but after being told by at least three of those mods that it is indeed a consensus among the mods before action is taken, yet still point your finger of blame only at me?

Yes, I absolutely will challenge that because it's ridiculous.
You need a consensus to moderate a thread and keep the peace? Are you serious? Oh, brother!
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The Brianista Prayer

Oh Brian
Thou Art In Hawthorne,
Harmonied Be Thy name
Your Kingdom Come,
Your Steak Well Done,
On Stage As It Is In Studio,
Give Us This Day, Our Shortenin' Bread
And Forgive Us Our Bootlegs,
As We Also Have Forgiven Our Wife And Managers,
And Lead Us Not Into Kokomo,
But Deliver Us From Mike Love.
Amen.  ---hypehat
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« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2016, 07:07:20 PM »

Well all of it, really...all of it should go here, and probably should have in the first place, but can't change that now. And speaking strictly for myself, it's not that it became a major issue when you were accused, it's more of a 'oh God, not this again'. Frankly speaking, some of the posts also made it seem like I'm not doing anything, or that I have no say in anything (which is bullshit), and I got tired of seeing that, too. So yeah, all of it can go here, and I'll be pleased as punch if it never shows up in any other thread again.

Just my two cents.
Billy, it got restarted in there by Craig, not any of us. He had to answer for his buddy Debbie, instead of letting her answer for herself. Then she had to defend him from the Conspirators. No one brought that up but Craig. I'm sorry Billy, but Craig doesn't take criticism very well, whether for his personal views or those of being a mod. The biggest difference between the two of you is that, Billy, you know when you have to take a neutral stance when you do your moderating duties, where Craig will take sides and fight. I will tell you, this is why some folks think he is biased towards some posters and unbiased with others. He is too polarizing a figure to have everybody on board with him moderating. As you can see, I am not the only one bringing this stuff up. People who rarely ever say anything, are having issues with his moderating. When feuds break out, no matter your personal preference a moderator needs to step in to get things under control, not jump into the fray. Folks see that and question what is going on. It may all be a perception problem, but if it lingers, it will continue to be a problem that won't go away easily.

Longtime lurker, extremely infrequent poster. Just had to say, while it may not be popular to say it out loud, I agree with you Dr BeachBoy and it took guts to say it, though Im sure you'll get flak for doing so.

GF, you seem like a nice guy overall, so I dont want this to sound like bullying, personal attacks or ganging up on you. But I think you do tend to take things too personally and fan the flames rather than put them out when a mod ought to do the latter. If you were more willing to take criticisms, listen, not come down hard against those you disagree with and stay out of the petty feuds I think you and other posters would be much happier. And no offense, but the way you just responded to Dr Beach Boy just now kinda proves that point. I know my opinion around here means jack squat but...I digress.

Now *this* is the part of moderating a board, any board, that sucks.

Do you want to tell them or should I explain it instead?
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« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2016, 07:16:42 PM »

Well all of it, really...all of it should go here, and probably should have in the first place, but can't change that now. And speaking strictly for myself, it's not that it became a major issue when you were accused, it's more of a 'oh God, not this again'. Frankly speaking, some of the posts also made it seem like I'm not doing anything, or that I have no say in anything (which is bullshit), and I got tired of seeing that, too. So yeah, all of it can go here, and I'll be pleased as punch if it never shows up in any other thread again.

Just my two cents.
Billy, it got restarted in there by Craig, not any of us. He had to answer for his buddy Debbie, instead of letting her answer for herself. Then she had to defend him from the Conspirators. No one brought that up but Craig. I'm sorry Billy, but Craig doesn't take criticism very well, whether for his personal views or those of being a mod. The biggest difference between the two of you is that, Billy, you know when you have to take a neutral stance when you do your moderating duties, where Craig will take sides and fight. I will tell you, this is why some folks think he is biased towards some posters and unbiased with others. He is too polarizing a figure to have everybody on board with him moderating. As you can see, I am not the only one bringing this stuff up. People who rarely ever say anything, are having issues with his moderating. When feuds break out, no matter your personal preference a moderator needs to step in to get things under control, not jump into the fray. Folks see that and question what is going on. It may all be a perception problem, but if it lingers, it will continue to be a problem that won't go away easily.

I restarted it, just like you thought I banned Andrew, I banned Mikie, and I did any number of things that I or any one person here didn't do alone. I don't answer for anyone, whatever that was supposed to mean is way off base.

if you respect Billy as much as you say, why don't you listen to what he has already said and accept as the truth what he has repeatedly said to you about all of these moderating issues you keep bringing up? I will repost them here just to make sure it's on the record.

You're blaming me for not stepping in somewhere when there have been upwards of four mods registered as mods since I joined, and you hold me alone responsible for not taking action you'd like to see taken? Not just that, but after being told by at least three of those mods that it is indeed a consensus among the mods before action is taken, yet still point your finger of blame only at me?

Yes, I absolutely will challenge that because it's ridiculous.
You need a consensus to moderate a thread and keep the peace? Are you serious? Oh, brother!

Address the issues Billy addressed to you. Do you believe Billy and what he said? If so you've been wrong about me and my actions for months. Now the subject changes?

I'm 100% serious - If I'm expected to step in whenever someone criticizes something you might support, then where was the call to arms for the past 10 years before I even signed on, or where is the same call for any other mods or admins to step in over the past year? Why don't you ask where everyone else was as equally as you're challenging me constantly on why I don't defend whatever it is I'm supposed to be defending? I'm not the only mod, I have never been the only mod. But I'm supposed to be the one to act wherever you see a need for it?

How much more do you need to hear from Billy or anyone else before you get it? And as I'd estimate most if not all of the board members who come here are adults, why is there so much of a requirement in the first place for someone to keep the peace around the clock on this board when adults should be just as capable of treating each other respectfully, debating if not arguing points without making it personal or engaging in name-calling and the like, and in general keeping the peace amongst themselves? You shouldn't wait for someone to come in a lock a thread in order to put out whatever flames certain members started themselves.
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« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2016, 07:40:18 PM »

I expect you to be a moderator. If you don't want to do your job, then let someone else do it. Don't make excuses and through Billy under the bus. If Billy says you do your banning as a group, then you do your banning as a group. It still doesn't mean you didn't initiate any of the bannings. They all seemed to occur after you had run ins with each of them.
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The Brianista Prayer

Oh Brian
Thou Art In Hawthorne,
Harmonied Be Thy name
Your Kingdom Come,
Your Steak Well Done,
On Stage As It Is In Studio,
Give Us This Day, Our Shortenin' Bread
And Forgive Us Our Bootlegs,
As We Also Have Forgiven Our Wife And Managers,
And Lead Us Not Into Kokomo,
But Deliver Us From Mike Love.
Amen.  ---hypehat
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« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2016, 08:27:25 PM »

Well all of it, really...all of it should go here, and probably should have in the first place, but can't change that now. And speaking strictly for myself, it's not that it became a major issue when you were accused, it's more of a 'oh God, not this again'. Frankly speaking, some of the posts also made it seem like I'm not doing anything, or that I have no say in anything (which is bullshit), and I got tired of seeing that, too. So yeah, all of it can go here, and I'll be pleased as punch if it never shows up in any other thread again.

Just my two cents.
Billy, it got restarted in there by Craig, not any of us. He had to answer for his buddy Debbie, instead of letting her answer for herself. Then she had to defend him from the Conspirators. No one brought that up but Craig. I'm sorry Billy, but Craig doesn't take criticism very well, whether for his personal views or those of being a mod. The biggest difference between the two of you is that, Billy, you know when you have to take a neutral stance when you do your moderating duties, where Craig will take sides and fight. I will tell you, this is why some folks think he is biased towards some posters and unbiased with others. He is too polarizing a figure to have everybody on board with him moderating. As you can see, I am not the only one bringing this stuff up. People who rarely ever say anything, are having issues with his moderating. When feuds break out, no matter your personal preference a moderator needs to step in to get things under control, not jump into the fray. Folks see that and question what is going on. It may all be a perception problem, but if it lingers, it will continue to be a problem that won't go away easily.

Longtime lurker, extremely infrequent poster. Just had to say, while it may not be popular to say it out loud, I agree with you Dr BeachBoy and it took guts to say it, though Im sure you'll get flak for doing so.

GF, you seem like a nice guy overall, so I dont want this to sound like bullying, personal attacks or ganging up on you. But I think you do tend to take things too personally and fan the flames rather than put them out when a mod ought to do the latter. If you were more willing to take criticisms, listen, not come down hard against those you disagree with and stay out of the petty feuds I think you and other posters would be much happier. And no offense, but the way you just responded to Dr Beach Boy just now kinda proves that point. I know my opinion around here means jack squat but...I digress.

Now *this* is the part of moderating a board, any board, that sucks.

Do you want to tell them or should I explain it instead?

I dont think I said anything mean spirited, out of line, or unwarranted in my post. I didnt even call for you to step down or call you a bad mod. I merely pointed out some issues Ive had and others too, with your style of moderation I think could be improved. And since any criticism of the mods here is usually shot down regardless of what it is, I thought DrBB deserved a fist bump for at least having the balls to say it and stick to his guns when others give him a hard time for it. I think youd do well to listen to constructive criticisms more than just get defensive and angry with people. Thats so of all people of all jobs and walks of life.
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« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2016, 08:32:15 PM »

I expect you to be a moderator. If you don't want to do your job, then let someone else do it. Don't make excuses and through Billy under the bus. If Billy says you do your banning as a group, then you do your banning as a group. It still doesn't mean you didn't initiate any of the bannings. They all seemed to occur after you had run ins with each of them.

Who is the conspiracy theorist now?

This is beyond ridiculous, it's reached the point of bordering on sick.

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"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
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