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Author Topic: Bubs & Judd Review No Pier Pressure  (Read 35881 times)
KDS
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« Reply #150 on: May 13, 2016, 11:30:40 AM »

Guitarfool,

OK, so maybe Runaway Dancer isn't EDM.  Maybe it's synth pop.  Maybe it's dance.  Maybe it's techno. 

Maybe I should be more broad and just say the song doesn't appeal to me because I don't like dance music. Anything with an electronic beat. 

I also think it's a bit of a square peg on an otherwise very high quality album. 

Either way, whatever the heck Runaway Dancer is, I don't like it. 
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« Reply #151 on: May 13, 2016, 11:35:35 AM »

Thank you for taking the time to educate. Although it  seems to me that the actual use of  terms like  EDM, Disco, Slick, synthetic horns etc, when relating to the albums production  style are actually meant as not so subtle slurs aimed at The label, Melinda, Joe Thomas, Sebu, the other guest artists ,etc. Im only a part time visitor to this site,  but the impression that I get is that there is a  prevailing theory  shared by some  that Brian would have never actually thought of  ever doing  any of these things himself, left to his own device.  Only when working with Andy Paley and Scott Bennett can we be assured that Brian's actual brush strokes make it to the canvas. Even  when there seem to be obvious examples of  Brian's trademark  production  style on NPP,  such as a great moving pick bass line with tons of echo on it, the reviewer ( or again supposedly the reviewers) infer that it was probably one of the aforementioned interlopers trying to rip off one of Brian's old techniques. Techniques from the good old days before Brian was dragged to the studio and tied down while various handlers auto tune his vocals and force him to work with cruel and nefarious pretend singers like Zooey  Deschanel. Singers who Brian could not possibly have ever heard of before let alone actually like.  Zooey   has  done some pretty amazing cover versions  of Brian's songs. But  according to the this theory, Brian couldn't possibly have been flattered by that, or think she has a cute voice. Or watched her very popular show on TV, or seen any of her movies with his kids. Her collaboration  and the others had to be a bad idea conjured up by some label suit.  While I am at it, I also find the criticism of the lyrics on NPP another not so subtle attempt to dis credit or slur the album.  Specifically the albums collaborators. It's  as if there was meant to be  some hidden lyrical genius the rest of us are missing on TLOS .   "Goin Home  Im Goin Home Back to the place where I belong Found piece of mind one piece at a time."  Or  on the Paley sessions  " Some guy walked by hit me in the side Elbow is the thing that keeps me satisfied" .  Brian if you are reading this, I applaud your continued enthusiasm, your quirky lyrics, and the fact that at 75 you are not still wearing the same production sweater that you wore in 1965. You use different collaborators for different reasons and i enjoy listening to  all of your efforts without prejudice!
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« Reply #152 on: May 13, 2016, 11:40:30 AM »

Thank you for taking the time to educate. Although it  seems to me that the actual use of  terms like  EDM, Disco, Slick, synthetic horns etc, when relating to the albums production  style are actually meant as not so subtle slurs aimed at The label, Melinda, Joe Thomas, Sebu, the other guest artists ,etc. Im only a part time visitor to this site,  but the impression that I get is that there is a  prevailing theory  shared by some  that Brian would have never actually thought of  ever doing  any of these things himself, left to his own device.  Only when working with Andy Paley and Scott Bennett can we be assured that Brian's actual brush strokes make it to the canvas. Even  when there seem to be obvious examples of  Brian's trademark  production  style on NPP,  such as a great moving pick bass line with tons of echo on it, the reviewer ( or again supposedly the reviewers) infer that it was probably one of the aforementioned interlopers trying to rip off one of Brian's old techniques. Techniques from the good old days before Brian was dragged to the studio and tied down while various handlers auto tune his vocals and force him to work with cruel and nefarious pretend singers like Zooey  Deschanel. Singers who Brian could not possibly have ever heard of before let alone actually like.  Zooey   has  done some pretty amazing cover versions  of Brian's songs. But  according to the this theory, Brian couldn't possibly have been flattered by that, or think she has a cute voice. Or watched her very popular show on TV, or seen any of her movies with his kids. Her collaboration  and the others had to be a bad idea conjured up by some label suit.  While I am at it, I also find the criticism of the lyrics on NPP another not so subtle attempt to dis credit or slur the album.  Specifically the albums collaborators. It's  as if there was meant to be  some hidden lyrical genius the rest of us are missing on TLOS .   "Goin Home  Im Goin Home Back to the place where I belong Found piece of mind one piece at a time."  Or  on the Paley sessions  " Some guy walked by hit me in the side Elbow is the thing that keeps me satisfied" .  Brian if you are reading this, I applaud your continued enthusiasm, your quirky lyrics, and the fact that at 75 you are not still wearing the same production sweater that you wore in 1965. You use different collaborators for different reasons and i enjoy listening to  all of your efforts without prejudice!

I hope you post more often! Well said.
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KDS
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« Reply #153 on: May 13, 2016, 11:45:12 AM »

Thank you for taking the time to educate. Although it  seems to me that the actual use of  terms like  EDM, Disco, Slick, synthetic horns etc, when relating to the albums production  style are actually meant as not so subtle slurs aimed at The label, Melinda, Joe Thomas, Sebu, the other guest artists ,etc. Im only a part time visitor to this site,  but the impression that I get is that there is a  prevailing theory  shared by some  that Brian would have never actually thought of  ever doing  any of these things himself, left to his own device.  Only when working with Andy Paley and Scott Bennett can we be assured that Brian's actual brush strokes make it to the canvas. Even  when there seem to be obvious examples of  Brian's trademark  production  style on NPP,  such as a great moving pick bass line with tons of echo on it, the reviewer ( or again supposedly the reviewers) infer that it was probably one of the aforementioned interlopers trying to rip off one of Brian's old techniques. Techniques from the good old days before Brian was dragged to the studio and tied down while various handlers auto tune his vocals and force him to work with cruel and nefarious pretend singers like Zooey  Deschanel. Singers who Brian could not possibly have ever heard of before let alone actually like.  Zooey   has  done some pretty amazing cover versions  of Brian's songs. But  according to the this theory, Brian couldn't possibly have been flattered by that, or think she has a cute voice. Or watched her very popular show on TV, or seen any of her movies with his kids. Her collaboration  and the others had to be a bad idea conjured up by some label suit.  While I am at it, I also find the criticism of the lyrics on NPP another not so subtle attempt to dis credit or slur the album.  Specifically the albums collaborators. It's  as if there was meant to be  some hidden lyrical genius the rest of us are missing on TLOS .   "Goin Home  Im Goin Home Back to the place where I belong Found piece of mind one piece at a time."  Or  on the Paley sessions  " Some guy walked by hit me in the side Elbow is the thing that keeps me satisfied" .  Brian if you are reading this, I applaud your continued enthusiasm, your quirky lyrics, and the fact that at 75 you are not still wearing the same production sweater that you wore in 1965. You use different collaborators for different reasons and i enjoy listening to  all of your efforts without prejudice!

I'm not sure how, apparently incorrectly, referring to my least favorite track on NPP is some kind of slur against Brian, Melinda, Joe Thomas, etc.   I've been very complimentary of the album as a whole, bar two songs.  

I just figured I'd answer when a poster asked why Runaway Dancer is so divisive.  

I've have no issues with Brian or Melinda Wilson.  In fact, I've met them both and found both to be very cordial.  I have no issues with Joe Thomas as I really like Imagination, TWGMTR, and NPP.  I've I had a critique of him, it would be his production of live material.  

A criticism of an album, or any aspect of the album (ie. a song, lyrics, a lead vocal, guitar lick, etc) does not always equal a criticism of the artist.  Anybody on here who had anything critical to say about NPP, including myself, bought the album, listened to it, and care about because we're fans of Brian Wilson.  

Like I said earlier, you can still be a fan, and not cherish every single note of music from an artist.  
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guitarfool2002
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« Reply #154 on: May 13, 2016, 11:51:12 AM »

Guitarfool,

OK, so maybe Runaway Dancer isn't EDM.  Maybe it's synth pop.  Maybe it's dance.  Maybe it's techno. 

Maybe I should be more broad and just say the song doesn't appeal to me because I don't like dance music. Anything with an electronic beat. 

I also think it's a bit of a square peg on an otherwise very high quality album. 

Either way, whatever the heck Runaway Dancer is, I don't like it. 

That is perfectly valid. We either like or don't like something, from food to music to whatever else. But what bothered me for a year, and which led to posting what I did, especially the clips of actual EDM artists performing EDM at EDM festivals, was the way too many reviewers and commentators were calling the track EDM when it is really not, and then reading the equivalent of "I don't like EDM so I don't like the song." It's a false equivalency because the track is not EDM, unless the definition of EDM could be stretched and manipulated to include everything from "Let's Go Crazy" by Prince, to "Setting Sun" by the Chemical Brothers and Noel Gallagher, up to whatever Skrillex and Diplo do at those EDM events, maybe even to include "Summer Of Love" because that is a synth-heavy, beat driven electronic/digital track with a dance groove.

It's all about accuracy in labeling and categorizing things, especially if certain labels might dissuade people from even checking out the song itself, whatever that song might be.

Are Rolling Stones fans still down on "Miss You" because they're rock and roll purists and Miss You is disco, with trademark disco drum groove and bass lines? Not to mention the "Stayin Alive" disco bpm tempo, more or less? I love the track - the jazz harmonica solo at the end is alone worth the price of admission. I'd say the same with Dead purists and "Shakedown Street" - Disco Dead or not, that tune is one hell of a groove and has neat chord changes, plenty of cool major 7ths and the like.

I'm glad I never bought into the purists dismissing those tracks I really enjoy playing and hearing simply because the purists wrote them off as disco.
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KDS
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« Reply #155 on: May 13, 2016, 11:55:15 AM »

Guitarfool,

OK, so maybe Runaway Dancer isn't EDM.  Maybe it's synth pop.  Maybe it's dance.  Maybe it's techno. 

Maybe I should be more broad and just say the song doesn't appeal to me because I don't like dance music. Anything with an electronic beat. 

I also think it's a bit of a square peg on an otherwise very high quality album. 

Either way, whatever the heck Runaway Dancer is, I don't like it. 

That is perfectly valid. We either like or don't like something, from food to music to whatever else. But what bothered me for a year, and which led to posting what I did, especially the clips of actual EDM artists performing EDM at EDM festivals, was the way too many reviewers and commentators were calling the track EDM when it is really not, and then reading the equivalent of "I don't like EDM so I don't like the song." It's a false equivalency because the track is not EDM, unless the definition of EDM could be stretched and manipulated to include everything from "Let's Go Crazy" by Prince, to "Setting Sun" by the Chemical Brothers and Noel Gallagher, up to whatever Skrillex and Diplo do at those EDM events, maybe even to include "Summer Of Love" because that is a synth-heavy, beat driven electronic/digital track with a dance groove.

It's all about accuracy in labeling and categorizing things, especially if certain labels might dissuade people from even checking out the song itself, whatever that song might be.

Are Rolling Stones fans still down on "Miss You" because they're rock and roll purists and Miss You is disco, with trademark disco drum groove and bass lines? Not to mention the "Stayin Alive" disco bpm tempo, more or less? I love the track - the jazz harmonica solo at the end is alone worth the price of admission. I'd say the same with Dead purists and "Shakedown Street" - Disco Dead or not, that tune is one hell of a groove and has neat chord changes, plenty of cool major 7ths and the like.

I'm glad I never bought into the purists dismissing those tracks I really enjoy playing and hearing simply because the purists wrote them off as disco.

I actually like songs like Miss You, Run Like Hell, and I Was Made for Loving You, even though I hate disco.  To me, even with the disco beat, those songs still sound like The Stones, Floyd, and Kiss. 

Maybe the fact that I dislike Runaway Dancer, and the fact that I dislike EDM are two separate things.  In fact, if Runaway Dancer were pure EDM, I could absolutely detest it.  But I tried like hell to like it.  And I'll confess the live version's not too bad. 

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Smilin Ed H
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« Reply #156 on: May 13, 2016, 11:57:20 AM »

I'm not sure how, apparently incorrectly, referring to my least favorite track on NPP is some kind of slur against Brian, Melinda, Joe Thomas, etc.   I've been very complimentary of the album as a whole, bar two songs.  


A criticism of an album, or any aspect of the album (ie. a song, lyrics, a lead vocal, guitar lick, etc) does not always equal a criticism of the artist.  Anybody on here who had anything critical to say about NPP, including myself, bought the album, listened to it, and care about because we're fans of Brian Wilson.  


Seconded.
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« Reply #157 on: May 13, 2016, 11:57:31 AM »

I love Miss You. And Parallel Lines.
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guitarfool2002
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« Reply #158 on: May 13, 2016, 12:05:07 PM »

Guitarfool,

OK, so maybe Runaway Dancer isn't EDM.  Maybe it's synth pop.  Maybe it's dance.  Maybe it's techno. 

Maybe I should be more broad and just say the song doesn't appeal to me because I don't like dance music. Anything with an electronic beat. 

I also think it's a bit of a square peg on an otherwise very high quality album. 

Either way, whatever the heck Runaway Dancer is, I don't like it. 

That is perfectly valid. We either like or don't like something, from food to music to whatever else. But what bothered me for a year, and which led to posting what I did, especially the clips of actual EDM artists performing EDM at EDM festivals, was the way too many reviewers and commentators were calling the track EDM when it is really not, and then reading the equivalent of "I don't like EDM so I don't like the song." It's a false equivalency because the track is not EDM, unless the definition of EDM could be stretched and manipulated to include everything from "Let's Go Crazy" by Prince, to "Setting Sun" by the Chemical Brothers and Noel Gallagher, up to whatever Skrillex and Diplo do at those EDM events, maybe even to include "Summer Of Love" because that is a synth-heavy, beat driven electronic/digital track with a dance groove.

It's all about accuracy in labeling and categorizing things, especially if certain labels might dissuade people from even checking out the song itself, whatever that song might be.

Are Rolling Stones fans still down on "Miss You" because they're rock and roll purists and Miss You is disco, with trademark disco drum groove and bass lines? Not to mention the "Stayin Alive" disco bpm tempo, more or less? I love the track - the jazz harmonica solo at the end is alone worth the price of admission. I'd say the same with Dead purists and "Shakedown Street" - Disco Dead or not, that tune is one hell of a groove and has neat chord changes, plenty of cool major 7ths and the like.

I'm glad I never bought into the purists dismissing those tracks I really enjoy playing and hearing simply because the purists wrote them off as disco.

I actually like songs like Miss You, Run Like Hell, and I Was Made for Loving You, even though I hate disco.  To me, even with the disco beat, those songs still sound like The Stones, Floyd, and Kiss. 

Maybe the fact that I dislike Runaway Dancer, and the fact that I dislike EDM are two separate things.  In fact, if Runaway Dancer were pure EDM, I could absolutely detest it.  But I tried like hell to like it.  And I'll confess the live version's not too bad. 



Speaking of Floyd, it would also have to include "Another Brick In The Wall pt 2", that has several musical elements that were trademarks of disco, from the 4-on-the-floor drum groove and bass, to especially Gilmour's out of phase Strat rhythm parts on the prechorus "hey teacher..." section. That guitar rhythm and tone is something Nile Rodgers could have played, and which he did play on everything from Chic to Donna Summer to David Bowie dance hits that made to top of the pop and dance charts.

I know this too because I remember hearing it on the Philly radio station in the single edit form, "back in the day". It was Floyd being played in the same set of music as the Village People and Donna Summer, because it was - horrors - something of a dance/disco hit as well. In the last 35 years or so, it has become a staple of classic rock. But when that single was new, it was being played on top 40 and dance radio, at least in Philly. A few years later a similar Philly radio station was regularly playing an extended dance remix of Springsteen's "Dancing In The Dark", emphasizing how Mighty Max was basically playing a disco beat on the kick drum and it had a danceable tempo.

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KDS
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« Reply #159 on: May 13, 2016, 12:07:32 PM »

Guitarfool,

OK, so maybe Runaway Dancer isn't EDM.  Maybe it's synth pop.  Maybe it's dance.  Maybe it's techno. 

Maybe I should be more broad and just say the song doesn't appeal to me because I don't like dance music. Anything with an electronic beat. 

I also think it's a bit of a square peg on an otherwise very high quality album. 

Either way, whatever the heck Runaway Dancer is, I don't like it. 

That is perfectly valid. We either like or don't like something, from food to music to whatever else. But what bothered me for a year, and which led to posting what I did, especially the clips of actual EDM artists performing EDM at EDM festivals, was the way too many reviewers and commentators were calling the track EDM when it is really not, and then reading the equivalent of "I don't like EDM so I don't like the song." It's a false equivalency because the track is not EDM, unless the definition of EDM could be stretched and manipulated to include everything from "Let's Go Crazy" by Prince, to "Setting Sun" by the Chemical Brothers and Noel Gallagher, up to whatever Skrillex and Diplo do at those EDM events, maybe even to include "Summer Of Love" because that is a synth-heavy, beat driven electronic/digital track with a dance groove.

It's all about accuracy in labeling and categorizing things, especially if certain labels might dissuade people from even checking out the song itself, whatever that song might be.

Are Rolling Stones fans still down on "Miss You" because they're rock and roll purists and Miss You is disco, with trademark disco drum groove and bass lines? Not to mention the "Stayin Alive" disco bpm tempo, more or less? I love the track - the jazz harmonica solo at the end is alone worth the price of admission. I'd say the same with Dead purists and "Shakedown Street" - Disco Dead or not, that tune is one hell of a groove and has neat chord changes, plenty of cool major 7ths and the like.

I'm glad I never bought into the purists dismissing those tracks I really enjoy playing and hearing simply because the purists wrote them off as disco.

I actually like songs like Miss You, Run Like Hell, and I Was Made for Loving You, even though I hate disco.  To me, even with the disco beat, those songs still sound like The Stones, Floyd, and Kiss. 

Maybe the fact that I dislike Runaway Dancer, and the fact that I dislike EDM are two separate things.  In fact, if Runaway Dancer were pure EDM, I could absolutely detest it.  But I tried like hell to like it.  And I'll confess the live version's not too bad. 



Speaking of Floyd, it would also have to include "Another Brick In The Wall pt 2", that has several musical elements that were trademarks of disco, from the 4-on-the-floor drum groove and bass, to especially Gilmour's out of phase Strat rhythm parts on the prechorus "hey teacher..." section. That guitar rhythm and tone is something Nile Rodgers could have played, and which he did play on everything from Chic to Donna Summer to David Bowie dance hits that made to top of the pop and dance charts.

I know this too because I remember hearing it on the Philly radio station in the single edit form, "back in the day". It was Floyd being played in the same set of music as the Village People and Donna Summer, because it was - horrors - something of a dance/disco hit as well. In the last 35 years or so, it has become a staple of classic rock. But when that single was new, it was being played on top 40 and dance radio, at least in Philly. A few years later a similar Philly radio station was regularly playing an extended dance remix of Springsteen's "Dancing In The Dark", emphasizing how Mighty Max was basically playing a disco beat on the kick drum and it had a danceable tempo.



Yeah ABITW2 is another example.  Elements of disco, but still sounds like Floyd. 

Another is Queen who incorporated dance into Another One Bites the Dust.  However, I think Queen went a little too dance for my taste of a few tracks off their Hot Space album. 
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« Reply #160 on: May 13, 2016, 12:13:55 PM »

Guitarfool,

OK, so maybe Runaway Dancer isn't EDM.  Maybe it's synth pop.  Maybe it's dance.  Maybe it's techno. 

Maybe I should be more broad and just say the song doesn't appeal to me because I don't like dance music. Anything with an electronic beat. 

I also think it's a bit of a square peg on an otherwise very high quality album. 

Either way, whatever the heck Runaway Dancer is, I don't like it. 

That is perfectly valid. We either like or don't like something, from food to music to whatever else. But what bothered me for a year, and which led to posting what I did, especially the clips of actual EDM artists performing EDM at EDM festivals, was the way too many reviewers and commentators were calling the track EDM when it is really not, and then reading the equivalent of "I don't like EDM so I don't like the song." It's a false equivalency because the track is not EDM, unless the definition of EDM could be stretched and manipulated to include everything from "Let's Go Crazy" by Prince, to "Setting Sun" by the Chemical Brothers and Noel Gallagher, up to whatever Skrillex and Diplo do at those EDM events, maybe even to include "Summer Of Love" because that is a synth-heavy, beat driven electronic/digital track with a dance groove.

It's all about accuracy in labeling and categorizing things, especially if certain labels might dissuade people from even checking out the song itself, whatever that song might be.

Are Rolling Stones fans still down on "Miss You" because they're rock and roll purists and Miss You is disco, with trademark disco drum groove and bass lines? Not to mention the "Stayin Alive" disco bpm tempo, more or less? I love the track - the jazz harmonica solo at the end is alone worth the price of admission. I'd say the same with Dead purists and "Shakedown Street" - Disco Dead or not, that tune is one hell of a groove and has neat chord changes, plenty of cool major 7ths and the like.

I'm glad I never bought into the purists dismissing those tracks I really enjoy playing and hearing simply because the purists wrote them off as disco.

I actually like songs like Miss You, Run Like Hell, and I Was Made for Loving You, even though I hate disco.  To me, even with the disco beat, those songs still sound like The Stones, Floyd, and Kiss. 

Maybe the fact that I dislike Runaway Dancer, and the fact that I dislike EDM are two separate things.  In fact, if Runaway Dancer were pure EDM, I could absolutely detest it.  But I tried like hell to like it.  And I'll confess the live version's not too bad. 



Speaking of Floyd, it would also have to include "Another Brick In The Wall pt 2", that has several musical elements that were trademarks of disco, from the 4-on-the-floor drum groove and bass, to especially Gilmour's out of phase Strat rhythm parts on the prechorus "hey teacher..." section. That guitar rhythm and tone is something Nile Rodgers could have played, and which he did play on everything from Chic to Donna Summer to David Bowie dance hits that made to top of the pop and dance charts.

I know this too because I remember hearing it on the Philly radio station in the single edit form, "back in the day". It was Floyd being played in the same set of music as the Village People and Donna Summer, because it was - horrors - something of a dance/disco hit as well. In the last 35 years or so, it has become a staple of classic rock. But when that single was new, it was being played on top 40 and dance radio, at least in Philly. A few years later a similar Philly radio station was regularly playing an extended dance remix of Springsteen's "Dancing In The Dark", emphasizing how Mighty Max was basically playing a disco beat on the kick drum and it had a danceable tempo.



Yeah ABITW2 is another example.  Elements of disco, but still sounds like Floyd. 

Another is Queen who incorporated dance into Another One Bites the Dust.  However, I think Queen went a little too dance for my taste of a few tracks off their Hot Space album. 

Of course, Another One Bites The Dust which is a watered down version of Nile Rodgers and Bernard Edwards grooves on Chic's Good Times, right down to Brian May doing Nile's funky rhythm comping during the verses. Yet, it still sounded like Queen, even though technically, it's watered down Chic and disco at its core. The fact it is disco doesn't affect my enjoyment of it, and hasn't for decades, it's a great track with that terrific wordless vocal solo from Freddie after the breakdown section. It was a song that was made for disco/pop markets and for dance clubs, yet it's Queen. I don't know if any diehard Queen fans at the time wouldn't listen to it because it was disco, or if any of that still exists today among the fanbase.

If I also remember correctly, until he got his own entrance music, the WWF wrestler "The Junkyard Dog" used Another One as his theme song when he came into the ring for a bout. I was one of those 80's fans watching matches at the Spectrum on PRISM when we first got cable, and i admit I bought and still own The Wrestling Album with everyone from Junkyard Dog to Nikolai Volkoff singing.
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« Reply #161 on: May 13, 2016, 12:24:54 PM »

Guitarfool,

OK, so maybe Runaway Dancer isn't EDM.  Maybe it's synth pop.  Maybe it's dance.  Maybe it's techno. 

Maybe I should be more broad and just say the song doesn't appeal to me because I don't like dance music. Anything with an electronic beat. 

I also think it's a bit of a square peg on an otherwise very high quality album. 

Either way, whatever the heck Runaway Dancer is, I don't like it. 

That is perfectly valid. We either like or don't like something, from food to music to whatever else. But what bothered me for a year, and which led to posting what I did, especially the clips of actual EDM artists performing EDM at EDM festivals, was the way too many reviewers and commentators were calling the track EDM when it is really not, and then reading the equivalent of "I don't like EDM so I don't like the song." It's a false equivalency because the track is not EDM, unless the definition of EDM could be stretched and manipulated to include everything from "Let's Go Crazy" by Prince, to "Setting Sun" by the Chemical Brothers and Noel Gallagher, up to whatever Skrillex and Diplo do at those EDM events, maybe even to include "Summer Of Love" because that is a synth-heavy, beat driven electronic/digital track with a dance groove.

It's all about accuracy in labeling and categorizing things, especially if certain labels might dissuade people from even checking out the song itself, whatever that song might be.

Are Rolling Stones fans still down on "Miss You" because they're rock and roll purists and Miss You is disco, with trademark disco drum groove and bass lines? Not to mention the "Stayin Alive" disco bpm tempo, more or less? I love the track - the jazz harmonica solo at the end is alone worth the price of admission. I'd say the same with Dead purists and "Shakedown Street" - Disco Dead or not, that tune is one hell of a groove and has neat chord changes, plenty of cool major 7ths and the like.

I'm glad I never bought into the purists dismissing those tracks I really enjoy playing and hearing simply because the purists wrote them off as disco.

I actually like songs like Miss You, Run Like Hell, and I Was Made for Loving You, even though I hate disco.  To me, even with the disco beat, those songs still sound like The Stones, Floyd, and Kiss. 

Maybe the fact that I dislike Runaway Dancer, and the fact that I dislike EDM are two separate things.  In fact, if Runaway Dancer were pure EDM, I could absolutely detest it.  But I tried like hell to like it.  And I'll confess the live version's not too bad. 



Speaking of Floyd, it would also have to include "Another Brick In The Wall pt 2", that has several musical elements that were trademarks of disco, from the 4-on-the-floor drum groove and bass, to especially Gilmour's out of phase Strat rhythm parts on the prechorus "hey teacher..." section. That guitar rhythm and tone is something Nile Rodgers could have played, and which he did play on everything from Chic to Donna Summer to David Bowie dance hits that made to top of the pop and dance charts.

I know this too because I remember hearing it on the Philly radio station in the single edit form, "back in the day". It was Floyd being played in the same set of music as the Village People and Donna Summer, because it was - horrors - something of a dance/disco hit as well. In the last 35 years or so, it has become a staple of classic rock. But when that single was new, it was being played on top 40 and dance radio, at least in Philly. A few years later a similar Philly radio station was regularly playing an extended dance remix of Springsteen's "Dancing In The Dark", emphasizing how Mighty Max was basically playing a disco beat on the kick drum and it had a danceable tempo.



Yeah ABITW2 is another example.  Elements of disco, but still sounds like Floyd. 

Another is Queen who incorporated dance into Another One Bites the Dust.  However, I think Queen went a little too dance for my taste of a few tracks off their Hot Space album. 

Of course, Another One Bites The Dust which is a watered down version of Nile Rodgers and Bernard Edwards grooves on Chic's Good Times, right down to Brian May doing Nile's funky rhythm comping during the verses. Yet, it still sounded like Queen, even though technically, it's watered down Chic and disco at its core. The fact it is disco doesn't affect my enjoyment of it, and hasn't for decades, it's a great track with that terrific wordless vocal solo from Freddie after the breakdown section. It was a song that was made for disco/pop markets and for dance clubs, yet it's Queen. I don't know if any diehard Queen fans at the time wouldn't listen to it because it was disco, or if any of that still exists today among the fanbase.

If I also remember correctly, until he got his own entrance music, the WWF wrestler "The Junkyard Dog" used Another One as his theme song when he came into the ring for a bout. I was one of those 80's fans watching matches at the Spectrum on PRISM when we first got cable, and i admit I bought and still own The Wrestling Album with everyone from Junkyard Dog to Nikolai Volkoff singing.

You're right, Another One Bites the Dust still sounds like Queen.  Take a song like Staying Power though.  If Freddie Mercury weren't singing, you'd have no idea who it is. 

Granted, Runaway Dancer does have some nice vocal harmonies, but when I hear it, I just don't think Brian Wilson.  But, in general, I'm not as fan a fan of some of Brian's "outside the box" moments as others here.  But, that's just me. 
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« Reply #162 on: May 13, 2016, 12:41:03 PM »

Thank you for taking the time to educate. Although it  seems to me that the actual use of  terms like  EDM, Disco, Slick, synthetic horns etc, when relating to the albums production  style are actually meant as not so subtle slurs aimed at The label, Melinda, Joe Thomas, Sebu, the other guest artists ,etc. !

Or maybe people don't like the song and have no agenda like you so arrogantly and wrongly hallucinate.
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« Reply #163 on: May 13, 2016, 12:43:42 PM »

Although it  seems to me that the actual use of  terms like  EDM, Disco, Slick, synthetic horns etc, when relating to the albums production  style are actually meant as not so subtle slurs aimed at The label, Melinda, Joe Thomas, Sebu, the other guest artists ,etc.

Calling one song EDM is a slur against MELINDA. LOL That is some pure, grade-A insanity. The only thing your list reveals is that you think those are negative. If we jump back to our review, we can see the song is classified as a "sh*t" EDM song (and not by me), which obviously means that "EDM" itself does not imply such a descriptor. This same thing is exhibited through the rest of the review. I swear, the reading comprehension of some of yous...


there is a  prevailing theory  shared by some  that Brian would have never actually thought of  ever doing  any of these things himself, left to his own device.  Only when working with Andy Paley and Scott Bennett can we be assured that Brian's actual brush strokes make it to the canvas.

Maybe, but not by me. I'm perfectly willing to accept this is what Brian wants. I still wouldn't think it was good. As stated clearly in the article, we have issues with the production of Brian's album with Scott Bennett. Therefore, we do not only have production criticisms for albums associated with Joe Thomas. I called TLOS "sugary sweet," and Judd called it "lacking in subtlety." Would you like us to have been more negative in our assessments?


Even  when there seem to be obvious examples of  Brian's trademark  production  style on NPP,  such as a great moving pick bass line with tons of echo on it, the reviewer ( or again supposedly the reviewers) infer that it was probably one of the aforementioned interlopers trying to rip off one of Brian's old techniques.

Wow, no; that was never inferred. And are you asking if there really is two of us here, and not just the work of one maniacal poster? There are two reviewers. Plural. S.


Techniques from the good old days before Brian was dragged to the studio and tied down while various handlers auto tune his vocals and force him to work with cruel and nefarious pretend singers like Zooey  Deschanel. Singers who Brian could not possibly have ever heard of before let alone actually like.  Zooey   has  done some pretty amazing cover versions  of Brian's songs. But  according to the this theory, Brian couldn't possibly have been flattered by that, or think she has a cute voice. Or watched her very popular show on TV, or seen any of her movies with his kids. Her collaboration  and the others had to be a bad idea conjured up by some label suit.

What in God's name are you talking about? The only person we brought up is Peter Hollens. He's just some guy on YouTube that does a cappella originals and covers of traditional songs. Were you familiar with him before this album? I sure wasn't. Of course, that doesn't mean Brian wasn't, but he's certainly not a big-name guest star. As for Zooey, I know nothing about their relationship. As has been explained here on this board, they already knew each other.


While I am at it, I also find the criticism of the lyrics on NPP another not so subtle attempt to dis credit or slur the album.  Specifically the albums collaborators. It's  as if there was meant to be  some hidden lyrical genius the rest of us are missing on TLOS .   "Goin Home  Im Goin Home Back to the place where I belong Found piece of mind one piece at a time."  Or  on the Paley sessions  " Some guy walked by hit me in the side Elbow is the thing that keeps me satisfied" .

Seriously, what? You do realize that we're reviewing No Pier Pressure, right? And not That Lucky Old Sun? Are you familiar with the red herring fallacy? I'm becoming confused by people's displeasure with the analysis of the lyrics. They're a part of the music, right? Guys? I praised the lyrics from Kacey Musgraves... or is that me secretly, uh, slurring her? WHAT IS THIS ARGUMENT
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« Reply #164 on: May 13, 2016, 12:49:40 PM »

Allow me a moment of going off topic and apart from Runaway Dancer to share something I hope will be enjoyable for some who might not be into "EDM" or dance/techno/electronica in general.

This is not EDM, in fact it was more from the rave scenes in the UK from the 90's, label it however is fitting. The Chemical Brothers, 1997 with a video directed by Spike Jonze.

This is in my opinion one of the finest music videos ever made, and a near perfect combination of the visual and the art of video directing and editing with music. It shows that Spike Jonze was/is much more than the guy playing the old lady in Jackass, and in my opinion he owned the area of music video as an art form. He took elements of his earlier influences with skateboard videos and street directing with fast edits, slo-mo, and quick cuts and found perfect combinations in the music that was coming out in the mid 90's, specifically the Chemical Brothers, Beastie Boys, Fatboy Slim, etc.

This video for Elektrobank is a masterpiece, in my opinion. Sofia Coppola plays the gymnast, and you need to take note of every scene and cut, especially to the audience members, to see just how many layers this video was working on as a storytelling device. The audience doesn't say a word, yet you can piece together the gymnast's story just by simple 3-5 second visual cuts. The action scenes of her performance are taken from the way the early skateboard and BMX videos would use extreme panning, tight cuts between viewpoints, and slow-mo/sped up effects to compliment the music. There is a brilliant editing sequence and vari-speed effect at the climax of the video, where the song itself does a similar transition into an explosion of sound.

So this is electronica and dance, from a time period where the art of the music video in the hands of talents like Spike Jonze were in perfect timing with the kind of music that was starting to get into the mainstream. Call it rave, call it EDM...when you watch the way this video melds with the music, you don't need to be E'd up and chewing on a florescent pacifier somewhere in the UK in 1998 to appreciate it, nor does this have to be presented by a celebrity DJ at the nearest EDM festival to crowds waiting for the bass to drop.

Just give it a chance with an open mind, and I hope the sheer beauty and artistry I see in this music video will at least open the possibility to explore more electronica or dance music, from whatever era. But this stuff in the 90's...they were tapped into the great wellspring of creativity, innovation, and pure art that comes along once or so every generation when it all lines up the right way.

My opinion, sorry in advance for off topic...here's the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0dxByaPWhM
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« Reply #165 on: May 13, 2016, 12:56:13 PM »

I don't mind if you elaborate on/post links to EDM songs or talk about music in general. That's perfectly fine and fits within the confines of this thread. Perhaps I should clarify that neither Judd nor I have any problems with electronic dance music. I didn't think I would need to, but there ya go.
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« Reply #166 on: May 13, 2016, 01:01:29 PM »

This thread is comedy gold. And full of cult tendencies.
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« Reply #167 on: May 13, 2016, 01:02:54 PM »

Exactly right. And that's why my multiple years of listening to Brian Wilson's music makes me a knowledgeable and experienced reviewer.

I was answering Cam's post and also getting back to what John Manning shared about his own professional experience writing and publishing product reviews, but to answer this: By your own admission you've played two out of the dozen or so solo albums that Brian has released since 1988, and even those only a few times. If your frame of reference and base of working knowledge on Brian's solo discography is formed by what you heard from Brian on 40 or 50 year old Beach Boys albums that Brian made versus what he has done in his solo career, how is that presenting experience as influencing what you're setting out to review? If listeners are buying a solo Brian record with the expectation they'll be hearing "Summer Days..." or "Today" or any others versus what Brian has done as a solo artist, they're coming from an almost unrealistic point of expectation. There are plenty of copycat bands and artists if people want to hear the 1965 "Brian sound" in 2016, but Brian is 50 years older and his solo material is simply not along those lines, rather it's what he chooses to write and how he chooses his music to sound in the present day. It would be the same if someone who has only played two previous McCartney albums a few times reviews a newer solo McCartney album using his Beatles catalog as a reference point and expects to hear another "Hey Jude" or "We Can Work It Out", or someone buying then reviewing a newer Clapton solo release expects him to play and sound like he did on Fresh Cream, having only listened to 461 Ocean Boulevard or Layla from his solo catalog.


I wonder.. would you have gone through all this trouble if my review was positive? I mean, I know the answer, but still.

Same question. Cos I did try to distinguish between a pro review that claims authority, and all that jazz, and a message board review that's informative, honest and entertaining in the ethereal sense of message board posts and written purely from the standpoint of love for the artist. And we have to bear in mind that any album from any artist should stand up to being reviewed in isolation, on it's own merits, in the context of anyone's musical taste and experience. An LP/album isn't like a "Gore-Tex" jacket that has to shape up against others, it's a standalone work of art after all.
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« Reply #168 on: May 13, 2016, 01:08:37 PM »

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« Reply #169 on: May 13, 2016, 01:13:41 PM »

Even  when there seem to be obvious examples of  Brian's trademark  production  style on NPP,  such as a great moving pick bass line with tons of echo on it, the reviewer ( or again supposedly the reviewers) infer that it was probably one of the aforementioned interlopers trying to rip off one of Brian's old techniques. Techniques from the good old days before Brian was dragged to the studio and tied down while various handlers auto tune his vocals and force him to work with cruel and nefarious pretend singers like Zooey  Deschanel. Singers who Brian could not possibly have ever heard of before let alone actually like.  Zooey   has  done some pretty amazing cover versions  of Brian's songs. But  according to the this theory, Brian couldn't possibly have been flattered by that, or think she has a cute voice. Or watched her very popular show on TV, or seen any of her movies with his kids. Her collaboration  and the others had to be a bad idea conjured up by some label suit.

A "reviewer" from PopMatters actually tore this album to shreds and claimed that Brian had never heard of Zooey Deschanel prior to this album...which is proven untrue by doing a quick Google search (Brian had been interviewed by her years before NPP). That "reviewer" used a plethora of other bogus information in that "review"...I really hate seeing that crap, because unknowing fans will actually believe that nonsense and then spout it later. Which is partially why I think many people (including myself) are so defensive about this album...too many assumptions based on bad information have been made.

That being said, I'm sure Brian was given a list of possible collaborators to choose from for NPP....and given the quality of the songs we got it's clear he was thrilled to work with them. If this idea about interlopers making Brian's records had any sort of validity I think we would've seen a paint-by-Brian/Jeff Beck collab album released. But it seems that Brian wasn't thrilled with the collab and thus no album was made.

Anyone who takes the time to research this album will find that yes, Brian Wilson's name is on the album for a reason. Interviews with the collaborators show that Brian was meticulous about the vocals (Musgraves talked about how she had to do so many takes of the vocal before Brian was satisfied, she talked about the conversation(s?) they had regarding the lyrics, Nate Ruess talked about Brian coming up with the "wah wah wah" vocal on the spot in the studio when they were at the mic). There are plenty of other anecdotes floating around regarding the tracks.
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« Reply #170 on: May 13, 2016, 01:23:30 PM »

Even  when there seem to be obvious examples of  Brian's trademark  production  style on NPP,  such as a great moving pick bass line with tons of echo on it, the reviewer ( or again supposedly the reviewers) infer that it was probably one of the aforementioned interlopers trying to rip off one of Brian's old techniques. Techniques from the good old days before Brian was dragged to the studio and tied down while various handlers auto tune his vocals and force him to work with cruel and nefarious pretend singers like Zooey  Deschanel. Singers who Brian could not possibly have ever heard of before let alone actually like.  Zooey   has  done some pretty amazing cover versions  of Brian's songs. But  according to the this theory, Brian couldn't possibly have been flattered by that, or think she has a cute voice. Or watched her very popular show on TV, or seen any of her movies with his kids. Her collaboration  and the others had to be a bad idea conjured up by some label suit.

A "reviewer" from PopMatters actually tore this album to shreds and claimed that Brian had never heard of Zooey Deschanel prior to this album...which is proven untrue by doing a quick Google search (Brian had been interviewed by her years before NPP). That "reviewer" used a plethora of other bogus information in that "review"...I really hate seeing that crap, because unknowing fans will actually believe that nonsense and then spout it later. Which is partially why I think many people (including myself) are so defensive about this album...too many assumptions based on bad information have been made.

That being said, I'm sure Brian was given a list of possible collaborators to choose from for NPP....and given the quality of the songs we got it's clear he was thrilled to work with them. If this idea about interlopers making Brian's records had any sort of validity I think we would've seen a paint-by-Brian/Jeff Beck collab album released. But it seems that Brian wasn't thrilled with the collab and thus no album was made.

Anyone who takes the time to research this album will find that yes, Brian Wilson's name is on the album for a reason. Interviews with the collaborators show that Brian was meticulous about the vocals (Musgraves talked about how she had to do so many takes of the vocal before Brian was satisfied, she talked about the conversation(s?) they had regarding the lyrics, Nate Ruess talked about Brian coming up with the "wah wah wah" vocal on the spot in the studio when they were at the mic). There are plenty of other anecdotes floating around regarding the tracks.

Lazy reviewers and commentators often don't let a silly thing like the facts get in the way of their "opinions".

In the case of Zooey Deschanel, not only is there that interview Brian did with Zooey, but her dad Caleb was the cameraman for Brian in 1966 when they filmed the Good Vibrations promo clip, and Zooey also babysat Brian's kids.

So that's just one glaring example of a reviewer talking sh*t about things he or she has no clue about, and which ultimately has nothing to do with the task of reviewing a new album or song.
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« Reply #171 on: May 13, 2016, 01:27:23 PM »

Even  when there seem to be obvious examples of  Brian's trademark  production  style on NPP,  such as a great moving pick bass line with tons of echo on it, the reviewer ( or again supposedly the reviewers) infer that it was probably one of the aforementioned interlopers trying to rip off one of Brian's old techniques. Techniques from the good old days before Brian was dragged to the studio and tied down while various handlers auto tune his vocals and force him to work with cruel and nefarious pretend singers like Zooey  Deschanel. Singers who Brian could not possibly have ever heard of before let alone actually like.  Zooey   has  done some pretty amazing cover versions  of Brian's songs. But  according to the this theory, Brian couldn't possibly have been flattered by that, or think she has a cute voice. Or watched her very popular show on TV, or seen any of her movies with his kids. Her collaboration  and the others had to be a bad idea conjured up by some label suit.

A "reviewer" from PopMatters actually tore this album to shreds and claimed that Brian had never heard of Zooey Deschanel prior to this album...which is proven untrue by doing a quick Google search (Brian had been interviewed by her years before NPP). That "reviewer" used a plethora of other bogus information in that "review"...I really hate seeing that crap, because unknowing fans will actually believe that nonsense and then spout it later. Which is partially why I think many people (including myself) are so defensive about this album...too many assumptions based on bad information have been made.

That being said, I'm sure Brian was given a list of possible collaborators to choose from for NPP....and given the quality of the songs we got it's clear he was thrilled to work with them. If this idea about interlopers making Brian's records had any sort of validity I think we would've seen a paint-by-Brian/Jeff Beck collab album released. But it seems that Brian wasn't thrilled with the collab and thus no album was made.

Anyone who takes the time to research this album will find that yes, Brian Wilson's name is on the album for a reason. Interviews with the collaborators show that Brian was meticulous about the vocals (Musgraves talked about how she had to do so many takes of the vocal before Brian was satisfied, she talked about the conversation(s?) they had regarding the lyrics, Nate Ruess talked about Brian coming up with the "wah wah wah" vocal on the spot in the studio when they were at the mic). There are plenty of other anecdotes floating around regarding the tracks.

Lazy reviewers and commentators often don't let a silly thing like the facts get in the way of their "opinions".

In the case of Zooey Deschanel, not only is there that interview Brian did with Zooey, but her dad Caleb was the cameraman for Brian in 1966 when they filmed the Good Vibrations promo clip, and Zooey also babysat Brian's kids.

So that's just one glaring example of a reviewer talking sh*t about things he or she has no clue about, and which ultimately has nothing to do with the task of reviewing a new album or song.
Though, didn't Brian claim not to know her before that first interview? If I recall correctly, Brian did not seem to know who she was when she started the interview. He did warm to her and it was a nice interview.
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« Reply #172 on: May 13, 2016, 01:28:03 PM »

So that's just one glaring example of a reviewer talking sh*t about things he or she has no clue about, and which ultimately has nothing to do with the task of reviewing a new album or song.

How is this related to the Judd/Josh review?
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« Reply #173 on: May 13, 2016, 01:29:43 PM »

Exactly right. And that's why my multiple years of listening to Brian Wilson's music makes me a knowledgeable and experienced reviewer.

I was answering Cam's post and also getting back to what John Manning shared about his own professional experience writing and publishing product reviews, but to answer this: By your own admission you've played two out of the dozen or so solo albums that Brian has released since 1988, and even those only a few times. If your frame of reference and base of working knowledge on Brian's solo discography is formed by what you heard from Brian on 40 or 50 year old Beach Boys albums that Brian made versus what he has done in his solo career, how is that presenting experience as influencing what you're setting out to review? If listeners are buying a solo Brian record with the expectation they'll be hearing "Summer Days..." or "Today" or any others versus what Brian has done as a solo artist, they're coming from an almost unrealistic point of expectation. There are plenty of copycat bands and artists if people want to hear the 1965 "Brian sound" in 2016, but Brian is 50 years older and his solo material is simply not along those lines, rather it's what he chooses to write and how he chooses his music to sound in the present day. It would be the same if someone who has only played two previous McCartney albums a few times reviews a newer solo McCartney album using his Beatles catalog as a reference point and expects to hear another "Hey Jude" or "We Can Work It Out", or someone buying then reviewing a newer Clapton solo release expects him to play and sound like he did on Fresh Cream, having only listened to 461 Ocean Boulevard or Layla from his solo catalog.


I wonder.. would you have gone through all this trouble if my review was positive? I mean, I know the answer, but still.

Same question. Cos I did try to distinguish between a pro review that claims authority, and all that jazz, and a message board review that's informative, honest and entertaining in the ethereal sense of message board posts and written purely from the standpoint of love for the artist. And we have to bear in mind that any album from any artist should stand up to being reviewed in isolation, on it's own merits, in the context of anyone's musical taste and experience. An LP/album isn't like a "Gore-Tex" jacket that has to shape up against others, it's a standalone work of art after all.

The conversations on the first few pages of this particular thread show a "love for the artist"? Show those pages to people totally unaware of anything related to this and ask if they can feel the love being shown through all the expletives and negativity.

Seriously John? If this was a sign of love, I'd hate to see the results if such a "review" were done for an artist that was hated. And if this is informative, I must have missed those sections because I didn't see info being offered that was anything new or useful to further analyze or interpret this album as the discussion unfolded.
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« Reply #174 on: May 13, 2016, 01:31:23 PM »

So that's just one glaring example of a reviewer talking sh*t about things he or she has no clue about, and which ultimately has nothing to do with the task of reviewing a new album or song.

How is this related to the Judd/Josh review?

It isn't unless you want it to be. I was replying to the comments in the post I quoted and the previous examples of incompetent and uninformed reviews cited in that post. Reviewers like the guy from Pop Matters who actually came on this board and demonstrated again his basic lack of knowledge about the subject matter he was tasked with reviewing.
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