Brian's musical arrangement inspirations for (primarily) Pet Sounds and Smile

[Emily]

We all know a lot about Brian's inspirations for his vocal arrangements, and the sources of a lot of the lyrics, and Carl's guitar sound, etc.
We know that he was a big fan of Phil Spector, but to my ears Phil Spector's arrangements sound muddy, unmelodic and imprecise next to Brian's.
Do we know what sort of antecedents Brian Wilson listened to that led to his complex and precise arrangements, using a variety of traditional and untraditional instruments to make representative, analogical sounds (sounds like 'childhood' or 'fire' or 'jewelry'). He had a lot of jazz inflections that can be heard before Pet Sounds; does anyone know if he listened to much instrumental jazz? Did he listen to avant garde experimental music? Did this actually just show up in his head, or was it a building on influences?

[clack]

Brian's arrangements were very different from Spector's. Phil went, famously, for a Wall of Sound, while Brian's sound was translucent -- a complex and varied array of sometimes unusual instrumentation yes, but you can hear space around each instrument, and Brian makes clear the relationships between instruments.

In general, Brian goes for clarity, Phil goes for energy and power.

[petsoundsnola]

I believe it was a building of influences starting with Rhapsody in Blue first heard as a child.

[Emily]

Brian's arrangements were very different from Spector's. Phil went, famously, for a Wall of Sound, while Brian's sound was translucent -- a complex and varied array of sometimes unusual instrumentation yes, but you can hear space around each instrument, and Brian makes clear the relationships between instruments.

In general, Brian goes for clarity, Phil goes for energy and power.

Nicely put, clack.

[Emily]

I believe it was a building of influences starting with Rhapsody in Blue first heard as a child.

That makes sense. Can you think of any other producers/arrangers in the 60s who were going in this direction that Brian may have personally or just through listening that he may have been bouncing ideas off of?

[alf wiedersehen]

I think the verse of "Heroes and Villains" is heavily inspired by "River Deep – Mountain High"

[petsoundsnola]

I believe it was a building of influences starting with Rhapsody in Blue first heard as a child.

That makes sense. Can you think of any other producers/arrangers in the 60s who were going in this direction that Brian may have personally or just through listening that he may have been bouncing ideas off of?

What about Jan Berry?  I'm sure Brian was influenced in some way by his production methods.

[SMiLE Brian]

Nothing sounds like Smile in 1966 or 2016. BW was operating on an otherworldly level.

[Mr. Verlander]

I think the verse of "Heroes and Villains" is heavily inspired by "River Deep – Mountain High"

Brian was at the session for RDMH, I believe.

[Emily]

I think the verse of "Heroes and Villains" is heavily inspired by "River Deep – Mountain High"

I don't hear that in the arrangement, but I absolutely do in the rhythm and chords.

[jiggy22]

Nothing sounds like Smile in 1966 or 2016. BW was operating on an otherworldly level.

Amen to that brother! One piece of SMiLE music that always fascinates me is the fade to Heroes and Villains/My Only Sunshine. Especially the melodies played by the plucked string instruments. I always wonder what Brian's prime influence was for this segment, it sounds like absolutely nothing anyone had ever heard of before or since 1966.

[alf wiedersehen]

I think the verse of "Heroes and Villains" is heavily inspired by "River Deep – Mountain High"

I don't hear that in the arrangement, but I absolutely do in the rhythm and chords.

Really? I think the cellos are a pretty obvious point of comparison.

[Emily]

I think the verse of "Heroes and Villains" is heavily inspired by "River Deep – Mountain High"

I don't hear that in the arrangement, but I absolutely do in the rhythm and chords.

Really? I think the cellos are a pretty obvious point of comparison.

I'm just trying to compare in my head. I'll try to actually listen when I get home tonight.

[The Shift]

I believe it was a building of influences starting with Rhapsody in Blue first heard as a child.

Agreed… and I'd love to see a lengthy playlist of what Murry Wilson listened to when Brian was a little kid as I'm sure that must have made a big mark on those young impressionable ears. Or ear. I also wonder how many of the songs on Brian's Gershwin album might have been on that playlist and whether there might have been some unacknowledged but deliberate tip of the hat in that direction? For all the abuse that came down from on high, the influences in terms of musical taste, from father to son, must have been indelibly strong in a house so filled with music.

[Mr. Verlander]

I think the verse of "Heroes and Villains" is heavily inspired by "River Deep – Mountain High"

I don't hear that in the arrangement, but I absolutely do in the rhythm and chords.

Really? I think the cellos are a pretty obvious point of comparison.

The bass line to RDMH is a lot faster; it sounds like if you took the cellos from H&V and sped them up. 
I love RDMH. I don't get why it wasn't a hit, although maybe the public by that point had moved on from the Spector sound.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I hear it...not quite the same but close

[Bicyclerider]

I'm not aware of Brian being into straight instrumental jazz (but then Rhapsody in Blue uses jazz) but I think his production for PS and Smile was a mix of Spector and instrumental exotica ("tiki") music like Martin Denny and Les Baxter plus the more avant garde Esquivel.  Definitely hear that influence on the PS instrumentals and Smile stuff like Worms, Wind Chimes, Holidays, I Wanna Be Around/Friday Night (Workshop), Cabinessence.

[Emily]

I'm not aware of Brian being into straight instrumental jazz (but then Rhapsody in Blue uses jazz) but I think his production for PS and Smile was a mix of Spector and instrumental exotica ("tiki") music like Martin Denny and Les Baxter plus the more avant garde Esquivel.  Definitely hear that influence on the PS instrumentals and Smile stuff like Worms, Wind Chimes, Holidays, I Wanna Be Around/Friday Night (Workshop), Cabinessence.

See, here's some stuff that I don't know anything about. Could you give me some albums/tracks to look for?

[Ebb and Flow]

I'm not aware of Brian being into straight instrumental jazz (but then Rhapsody in Blue uses jazz) but I think his production for PS and Smile was a mix of Spector and instrumental exotica ("tiki") music like Martin Denny and Les Baxter plus the more avant garde Esquivel.  Definitely hear that influence on the PS instrumentals and Smile stuff like Worms, Wind Chimes, Holidays, I Wanna Be Around/Friday Night (Workshop), Cabinessence.

See, here's some stuff that I don't know anything about. Could you give me some albums/tracks to look for?

Martin Denny: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2dQ3WbcF44
Les Baxter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTwwnEggw24
Esquivel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVdPjAKWkao

While I'm not sure if there's much evidence that Brian was a fan of this music, it was a huge genre in the late 50's and 60's and I agree that its influence can be heard in his arrangements, specifically on Pet Sounds.

[MrRobinsonsFather]

Nelson Riddle

[Bicyclerider]

 Murry probably had the tiki exotica albums and Esquivel - so Brian would have been familiar with this music.  I vaguely remember an interview or article that referenced what Murry listened to and that it included this stuff, but I could be misremembering -- AGD would know!!

[ash]

Heroes and Villains sounds far more like Save The Last Dance For Me by Ike and Tina Turner than RDMH. In fact it's , well extremely close.
The Indian noises from Worms are a lift from Running Bear by Johnny Preston.
Many of the arrangement ideas (not executions) are quite Charles Ives. Ives wrote many pieces about Americana and you can "see" the things the music was about. Two examples being Halloween (see Mrs O'Leary's Cow) and The Hook, The Gong and The Ladder. Central Park In The Dark is another classic visual piece of his.
If you cross Ives with Carl Stalling's cartoon music and mixed in with The Four Freshman and Spector on acid you get pretty close to Smile.
I don't know how familiar Brian was with Ives work but I can well imagine Van Dyke was at least aware of him....that whole approach of music actually sounding like what it's about is very Ives - the breezy marimba on Wind Chimes, the cello run and fuzz bass representing the train and the plink plink of the pickaxes on the railroad, jewellry percussion, babies wah wah on Child IFOTM etc..
I cannot help thinking that Van Dyke had some influence on this as it did not really occur again after Smile with notable exceptions including Diamond Head. I wish Van Dyke had had some decent input into the box set. I imagine he could still respond with interesting information if asked the right questions.

[Mitchell]

I surmise that Disney cartoons and Looney Tunes influenced the arrangements for Smile. I have no evidence, however.

[Emily]

Heroes and Villains sounds far more like Save The Last Dance For Me by Ike and Tina Turner than RDMH. In fact it's , well extremely close.
The Indian noises from Worms are a lift from Running Bear by Johnny Preston.
Many of the arrangement ideas (not executions) are quite Charles Ives. Ives wrote many pieces about Americana and you can "see" the things the music was about. Two examples being Halloween (see Mrs O'Leary's Cow) and The Hook, The Gong and The Ladder. Central Park In The Dark is another classic visual piece of his.
If you cross Ives with Carl Stalling's cartoon music and mixed in with The Four Freshman and Spector on acid you get pretty close to Smile.
I don't know how familiar Brian was with Ives work but I can well imagine Van Dyke was at least aware of him....that whole approach of music actually sounding like what it's about is very Ives - the breezy marimba on Wind Chimes, the cello run and fuzz bass representing the train and the plink plink of the pickaxes on the railroad, jewellry percussion, babies wah wah on Child IFOTM etc..
I cannot help thinking that Van Dyke had some influence on this as it did not really occur again after Smile with notable exceptions including Diamond Head. I wish Van Dyke had had some decent input into the box set. I imagine he could still respond with interesting information if asked the right questions.

Thanks so much. And Bicycle Rider. This is really informative and gives me some interesting leads for stuff to listen to. Love it!

[Willy Wilson]

Heroes and Villains sounds far more like Save The Last Dance For Me by Ike and Tina Turner than RDMH. In fact it's , well extremely close.
The Indian noises from Worms are a lift from Running Bear by Johnny Preston.
Many of the arrangement ideas (not executions) are quite Charles Ives. Ives wrote many pieces about Americana and you can "see" the things the music was about. Two examples being Halloween (see Mrs O'Leary's Cow) and The Hook, The Gong and The Ladder. Central Park In The Dark is another classic visual piece of his.
If you cross Ives with Carl Stalling's cartoon music and mixed in with The Four Freshman and Spector on acid you get pretty close to Smile.
I don't know how familiar Brian was with Ives work but I can well imagine Van Dyke was at least aware of him....that whole approach of music actually sounding like what it's about is very Ives - the breezy marimba on Wind Chimes, the cello run and fuzz bass representing the train and the plink plink of the pickaxes on the railroad, jewellry percussion, babies wah wah on Child IFOTM etc..
I cannot help thinking that Van Dyke had some influence on this as it did not really occur again after Smile with notable exceptions including Diamond Head. I wish Van Dyke had had some decent input into the box set. I imagine he could still respond with interesting information if asked the right questions.

This is brilliant!!