Carol Kaye interview...

[37!ws]

Yes. She's a pioneer, who played on hit after hit after hit, yet she lost her home to bank a few years back... That can make one bitter.

Thing is, though...she was getting like that before she lost her home.

[Bicyclerider]

I didn't see anyone comment on all the inaccuracies in the article linked in the first post:

She didn't play bass on GV - at least not on the single version
Pet Sounds didn't take a year to record
The bass lines on Pet Sounds did inspire McCartney, but those bass lines were almost completely dictated to Carol by Brian, not made up by her

[Jeff]

Some of these posts really cross the line.  Accusing someone of being mentally ill is libelous, at least in the United States.  Do people really want to risk getting this board shut down over that?

And aside from the legal implications, it's unfair and just wrong to make judgments like that.  Whatever her problems may be, I'm pretty sure that no one on this board has the direct knowledge and expertise to characterize people they don't know as mentally ill.

[adamghost]

Some of these posts really cross the line.  Accusing someone of being mentally ill is libelous, at least in the United States.  Do people really want to risk getting this board shut down over that?

And aside from the legal implications, it's unfair and just wrong to make judgments like that.  Whatever her problems may be, I'm pretty sure that no one on this board has the direct knowledge and expertise to characterize people they don't know as mentally ill.

I get what you're saying, Jeff, but I and others I think were actually looking at that as the kinder and more sympathetic explanation for her behavior.  First of all, there's nothing wrong with being mentally ill if that's what you are.  It's something to be understood and hopefully treated.  Second, it's a more holistic way to approach the behavior of somebody who is, absent that explanation, simply acting as a horrible human being.

So, no, not unfair.  She's acting wack.  She may or may not be mentally ill, but mental illness is the kinder and more compassionate explanation.  It's the least judgmental interpretation of her behavior.

[c-man]

I didn't see anyone comment on all the inaccuracies in the article linked in the first post:

She didn't play bass on GV - at least not on the single version
Pet Sounds didn't take a year to record
The bass lines on Pet Sounds did inspire McCartney, but those bass lines were almost completely dictated to Carol by Brian, not made up by her

And in some cases, they weren't even dictated to Carol, but rather to Ray Pohlman (and in one case, I believe they were played by Brian himself). This is because (a) Carol's not on every single PS track (which we've known since the credits were first published in the '97 box set), and (2) on some of the tracks where she's present, she's playing guitar rather than bass (the same scenario played out on the subsequent SMiLE sessions). None of which, BTW, diminishes her role on these sessions at all - it's just for the sake of historical accuracy, and to prevent the status of Ray Pohlman from being completely overshadowed in the process.

[MikestheGreatest!!]

Well it would be more than a little annoying to have the "two keys" line attributed to you if you did not ever say it.  Why did they not simply attribute the quote to Pohlman's character if he was the one who said it?

[Emily]

Well it would be more than a little annoying to have the "two keys" line attributed to you if you did not ever say it.  Why did they not simply attribute the quote to Pohlman's character if he was the one who said it?

For the film they didn't want to create a speaking, named, uniquely identifiable character for every piece of dialogue that in reality was spoken by different individuals. The movie is not meant to be a literal recreation of reality. If so, it would have taken several years to watch. They condense and simplify. They had two primary identifiable speaking studio musicians, as far as I remember: "Hal Blaine" and "Carol Kaye". These characters, like those of "Brian Wilson," "Murry Wilson," "Marilyn Wilson," etc. are not meant to be considered by the audience to actually be the real person, or to necessarily say exactly what the real person said. They are meant to be avatars that act out a scene so we can understand the essence of what was happening in reality.
"Hal Blaine" and "Carol Kaye" were characters who represented both the studio musicians generally and Hal Blaine and Carol Kaye particularly.
Also, I only think it would annoying if one wanted to be annoyed. There's nothing inherently wrong with the question.

[Cam Mott]

Carol didn't have to complain about it just because it's not true and on the other hand we don't have to complain about her complaining about it, because it isn't true. 

[Emily]

Carol didn't have to complain about it just because it's not true and on the other hand we don't have to complain about her complaining about it, because it isn't true. 

One reason I complain about her complaining is that she implies, or even said explicitly in one interview, that it's a stupid question, which is a little insulting to Pohlman. It's also insulting to the film makers, I think.

[Cam Mott]

Carol didn't have to complain about it just because it's not true and on the other hand we don't have to complain about her complaining about it, because it isn't true. 

One reason I complain about her complaining is that she implies, or even said explicitly in one interview, that it's a stupid question, which is a little insulting to Pohlman. It's also insulting to the film makers, I think.

If she said it was stupid, she could have phrased it better.  Do we know if she knows Ray Pohlman asked the question and she intended to insult him?

Maybe it's just me but the insult be putting the false words in someone's mouth, in the name of artistic license or no.

[Emily]

Carol didn't have to complain about it just because it's not true and on the other hand we don't have to complain about her complaining about it, because it isn't true. 

One reason I complain about her complaining is that she implies, or even said explicitly in one interview, that it's a stupid question, which is a little insulting to Pohlman. It's also insulting to the film makers, I think.

If she said it was stupid, she could have phrased it better.  Do we know if she knows Ray Pohlman asked the question and she intended to insult him?

Maybe it's just me but the insult be putting the false words in someone's mouth, in the name of artistic license or no.

I have no idea if she knows that he said it. I would guess not, because it seems so rude otherwise, but...
I've never really taken the amalgamation of characters to be insulting in itself. There's always the risk of insult certainly, depending on how it's managed. I certainly didn't perceive that her character was presented as a 'bimbo' (her word). She did, but she bases that on assigning Pohlman's question to her, implying that Pohlman's a bimbo. If I perceived that I was portrayed as a bimbo, I'd be insulted. But I feel a bit like she's defensive and perceives insults that aren't there.
If film-makers didn't amalgamate characters when making biographies, biographical films would be impossible.

[Cam Mott]

Carol didn't have to complain about it just because it's not true and on the other hand we don't have to complain about her complaining about it, because it isn't true. 

One reason I complain about her complaining is that she implies, or even said explicitly in one interview, that it's a stupid question, which is a little insulting to Pohlman. It's also insulting to the film makers, I think.

If she said it was stupid, she could have phrased it better.  Do we know if she knows Ray Pohlman asked the question and she intended to insult him?

Maybe it's just me but the insult be putting the false words in someone's mouth, in the name of artistic license or no.

I have no idea if she knows that he said it. I would guess not, because it seems so rude otherwise, but...
I've never really taken the amalgamation of characters to be insulting in itself. There's always the risk of insult certainly, depending on how it's managed. I certainly didn't perceive that her character was presented as a 'bimbo' (her word). She did, but she bases that on assigning Pohlman's question to her, implying that Pohlman's a bimbo. If I perceived that I was portrayed as a bimbo, I'd be insulted. But I feel a bit like she's defensive and perceives insults that aren't there.
If film-makers didn't amalgamate characters when making biographies, biographical films would be impossible.

Maybe we just won't agree, if we are disagreeing.  I don't think convenience and artistic license let the filmmakers off the hook, she didn't say it and they put the words in her mouth.  I'm not a filmmaker but I doubt the movie would have become impossible if a male actor had delivered the line.   

[adamghost]

Carol didn't have to complain about it just because it's not true and on the other hand we don't have to complain about her complaining about it, because it isn't true.  

One reason I complain about her complaining is that she implies, or even said explicitly in one interview, that it's a stupid question, which is a little insulting to Pohlman. It's also insulting to the film makers, I think.

If she said it was stupid, she could have phrased it better.  Do we know if she knows Ray Pohlman asked the question and she intended to insult him?

Maybe it's just me but the insult be putting the false words in someone's mouth, in the name of artistic license or no.

I have no idea if she knows that he said it. I would guess not, because it seems so rude otherwise, but...
I've never really taken the amalgamation of characters to be insulting in itself. There's always the risk of insult certainly, depending on how it's managed. I certainly didn't perceive that her character was presented as a 'bimbo' (her word). She did, but she bases that on assigning Pohlman's question to her, implying that Pohlman's a bimbo. If I perceived that I was portrayed as a bimbo, I'd be insulted. But I feel a bit like she's defensive and perceives insults that aren't there.
If film-makers didn't amalgamate characters when making biographies, biographical films would be impossible.

I admit I'm biased on this topic because the person who supposedly gave the "bimbo" performance is my best friend and longtime bass player.  And a damn good one, I might add, and about as far from a bimbo as one can get in real life.   She's a personification of what Kaye pioneered in that she's a female musician in a band and people that play with her give her gender just about zero thought.  She does her job.  And I know that she (my friend) was hurt by the "bimbo" bit even though she would never say so - and she's far from the first to come away with a sour feeling because of something Ms. Kaye said or did.

If the line were given to Pohlman, then there would be anger, I am sure, because Pohlman's character was given a line and Kaye wasn't, both on ego and sexism grounds (and I would somewhat agree on the latter - Ms. Kaye should have been, and was, featured).  It is clear from Ms. Kaye's track record that she has an eternal axe to grind.

I think the real problem Kaye has with the portrayal - and I'm not sure I am kidding about this - is her film character came across as a nice person.  To someone who had her teeth gritted in the sexist world of the '60s studio, she probably wanted to see (to use the un-PC term of the period) a "tougher broad."  But that doesn't excuse her absolute gracelessness or disinterest in the bigger picture of showing some class - not to mention not tarnishing her own legacy.

[Cyncie]

It just seems to me that the subjects of these movies too often don't get the fact that movies always have to take  shortcuts to tell the story. If they didn't, the movie would run for ages and be as boring as heck. The fact that Ms Kayes character got lines was an attempt to highlight her role in the music game, if in a minor way. The point of the line was to show that Brian was doing things that the music professionals found innovative. It accomplished those things.

Ms. Kaye hates the 'Wrecking Crew' name because they were never called that. She hates 'Love and Mercy' because she never wore a fire hat and never said that to Brian. She's a stickler for accuracy, except where her own credits are concerned.

[37!ws]

Ms. Kaye hates the 'Wrecking Crew' name because they were never called that. She hates 'Love and Mercy' because she never wore a fire hat and never said that to Brian. She's a stickler for accuracy, except where her own credits are concerned.

When she went on her rampage about L&M (saying how inaccurate it was, saying she was made out to be a bimbo, and blasting Melinda), she admitted she didn't even SEE the damn thing.

[Bicyclerider]

While she may not have delivered the two key line in real life, I recall the exchange between her and Brian on tracking Surf's Up where Brian wants the first verse to "break down" in a kind of loose chaotic way and that bothers Carol, and Brian tells her not to worry about it, and she says "I DO worry!"  Its similar in that it's a questioning of what Brian was doing musically and if it would sound right, and of course Brian knew what he was doing and it did sound right, just like the "two keys" question.

[LostArt]

Changed thread title. 

[You Kane, You Commanded, You Conquered]

Changed thread title.  

Was there a reason for having "for AGD" in the title? I know people miss him, but it seemed odd.

[Juice Brohnston]

Changed thread title.  

Was there a reason for having "for AGD" in the title? I know people miss him, but it seemed odd.

I guess it was directed at him originally, due to his ongoing battles with CK.

[LostArt]

Changed thread title.  

Was there a reason for having "for AGD" in the title? I know people miss him, but it seemed odd.

I actually didn't know that he was banned until today.  I feel a little foolish.

[LostArt]

Changed thread title.  

Was there a reason for having "for AGD" in the title? I know people miss him, but it seemed odd.

I guess it was directed at him originally, due to his ongoing battles with CK.

That's exactly right.  As I said above, I didn't know he was banned at the time I posted it.

[filledeplage]

Carol didn't have to complain about it just because it's not true and on the other hand we don't have to complain about her complaining about it, because it isn't true.  

One reason I complain about her complaining is that she implies, or even said explicitly in one interview, that it's a stupid question, which is a little insulting to Pohlman. It's also insulting to the film makers, I think.

If she said it was stupid, she could have phrased it better.  Do we know if she knows Ray Pohlman asked the question and she intended to insult him?

Maybe it's just me but the insult be putting the false words in someone's mouth, in the name of artistic license or no.

I have no idea if she knows that he said it. I would guess not, because it seems so rude otherwise, but...
I've never really taken the amalgamation of characters to be insulting in itself. There's always the risk of insult certainly, depending on how it's managed. I certainly didn't perceive that her character was presented as a 'bimbo' (her word). She did, but she bases that on assigning Pohlman's question to her, implying that Pohlman's a bimbo. If I perceived that I was portrayed as a bimbo, I'd be insulted. But I feel a bit like she's defensive and perceives insults that aren't there.
If film-makers didn't amalgamate characters when making biographies, biographical films would be impossible.

I admit I'm biased on this topic because the person who supposedly gave the "bimbo" performance is my best friend and longtime bass player.  And a damn good one, I might add, and about as far from a bimbo as one can get in real life.   She's a personification of what Kaye pioneered in that she's a female musician in a band and people that play with her give her gender just about zero thought.  She does her job.  And I know that she (my friend) was hurt by the "bimbo" bit even though she would never say so - and she's far from the first to come away with a sour feeling because of something Ms. Kaye said or did.

If the line were given to Pohlman, then there would be anger, I am sure, because Pohlman's character was given a line and Kaye wasn't, both on ego and sexism grounds (and I would somewhat agree on the latter - Ms. Kaye should have been, and was, featured).  It is clear from Ms. Kaye's track record that she has an eternal axe to grind.

I think the real problem Kaye has with the portrayal - and I'm not sure I am kidding about this - is her film character came across as a nice person.  To someone who had her teeth gritted in the sexist world of the '60s studio, she probably wanted to see (to use the un-PC term of the period) a "tougher broad."  But that doesn't excuse her absolute gracelessness or disinterest in the bigger picture of showing some class - not to mention not tarnishing her own legacy.

adamghost - I wish the "right person" would be able to approach Carol.  She is 81, so I suppose she grew up at the very end of the Depression or it's after-effects.  I can only liken that generation to what I know about teaching.  I know that in most school systems you could not teach once you were married, and those policies continued until the late 50's and early 60's.  From there, you could not be pregnant, even up until the mid to late 60's and work.  Women hid their marriages and their pregnancies. 

It was a different world and shocking because I could be married, teach, and carry a baby up to (and beyond) my due date.  The unions fought against that type of discrimination.  It was not until the mid to late 60's that there was equal pay for men and women who held the same degrees and credentials. 

That is just an analogy from my occupation to wonder how hard (did she belong to a union where there was equal pay for men and women?) things must have been for her.  Even this week, a woman firefighter committed suicide and there are indications that she was bullied.  So, Carol might have some old baggage that she cannot get past.   The "right person" might be able to elicit a better perspective, going forward.  And I thought she was very well portrayed in the film.  They all were - right down to Landy. 

But when I re-read Jules Siegel, and how he characterized her, I felt sick to my stomach. And she has to know that, this article is in the textbooks for posterity.  Maybe Carol feels that having to combat this bad characterization (in this article) is just too overwhelming and from that point on, Carol felt burned forever.    JMHO of course 

[adamghost]

Carol didn't have to complain about it just because it's not true and on the other hand we don't have to complain about her complaining about it, because it isn't true.  

One reason I complain about her complaining is that she implies, or even said explicitly in one interview, that it's a stupid question, which is a little insulting to Pohlman. It's also insulting to the film makers, I think.

If she said it was stupid, she could have phrased it better.  Do we know if she knows Ray Pohlman asked the question and she intended to insult him?

Maybe it's just me but the insult be putting the false words in someone's mouth, in the name of artistic license or no.

I have no idea if she knows that he said it. I would guess not, because it seems so rude otherwise, but...
I've never really taken the amalgamation of characters to be insulting in itself. There's always the risk of insult certainly, depending on how it's managed. I certainly didn't perceive that her character was presented as a 'bimbo' (her word). She did, but she bases that on assigning Pohlman's question to her, implying that Pohlman's a bimbo. If I perceived that I was portrayed as a bimbo, I'd be insulted. But I feel a bit like she's defensive and perceives insults that aren't there.
If film-makers didn't amalgamate characters when making biographies, biographical films would be impossible.

I admit I'm biased on this topic because the person who supposedly gave the "bimbo" performance is my best friend and longtime bass player.  And a damn good one, I might add, and about as far from a bimbo as one can get in real life.   She's a personification of what Kaye pioneered in that she's a female musician in a band and people that play with her give her gender just about zero thought.  She does her job.  And I know that she (my friend) was hurt by the "bimbo" bit even though she would never say so - and she's far from the first to come away with a sour feeling because of something Ms. Kaye said or did.

If the line were given to Pohlman, then there would be anger, I am sure, because Pohlman's character was given a line and Kaye wasn't, both on ego and sexism grounds (and I would somewhat agree on the latter - Ms. Kaye should have been, and was, featured).  It is clear from Ms. Kaye's track record that she has an eternal axe to grind.

I think the real problem Kaye has with the portrayal - and I'm not sure I am kidding about this - is her film character came across as a nice person.  To someone who had her teeth gritted in the sexist world of the '60s studio, she probably wanted to see (to use the un-PC term of the period) a "tougher broad."  But that doesn't excuse her absolute gracelessness or disinterest in the bigger picture of showing some class - not to mention not tarnishing her own legacy.

adamghost - I wish the "right person" would be able to approach Carol.  She is 81, so I suppose she grew up at the very end of the Depression or it's after-effects.  I can only liken that generation to what I know about teaching.  I know that in most school systems you could not teach once you were married, and those policies continued until the late 50's and early 60's.  From there, you could not be pregnant, even up until the mid to late 60's and work.  Women hid their marriages and their pregnancies.  

It was a different world and shocking because I could be married, teach, and carry a baby up to (and beyond) my due date.  The unions fought against that type of discrimination.  It was not until the mid to late 60's that there was equal pay for men and women who held the same degrees and credentials.  

That is just an analogy from my occupation to wonder how hard (did she belong to a union where there was equal pay for men and women?) things must have been for her.  Even this week, a woman firefighter committed suicide and there are indications that she was bullied.  So, Carol might have some old baggage that she cannot get past.   The "right person" might be able to elicit a better perspective, going forward.  And I thought she was very well portrayed in the film.  They all were - right down to Landy.  

But when I re-read Jules Siegel, and how he characterized her, I felt sick to my stomach. And she has to know that, this article is in the textbooks for posterity.  Maybe Carol feels that having to combat this bad characterization (in this article) is just too overwhelming and from that point on, Carol felt burned forever.    JMHO of course  

Well...my mom was born in the '20s and had an IQ of 160.  She was a published author and professor of French at SUNY but she was forced to quit when she became pregnant with me.  I don't think she liked that one bit.  But I don't recall her ranting to the ages about it when she was 81.  She went on with her life, wrote more books, and earned the respect of everyone she ever met with her intelligence, wisdom and class.  

I know that by right person you may well mean somebody that's female (and my sympathy for that angle evaporated when she basically called my friend's portrayal in a film, someone who epitomizes the best of feminism, that of a "bimbo") but - quick true story - an acquaintance who I know to be a very good guy texted me one day not long ago all excited because Carol Kaye wanted to work with him to tell her story properly.  I warned him she might be difficult, but he said don't worry, he was a psychologist and he would go in with the right attitude.  

Fast forward a few months later and Ms. Kaye - poster above please take note - was calling my acquaintance out by name on Facebook, warning people about him, basically accusing him of being a stalker and explicitly suggesting he was mentally imbalanced.

Anything's possible of course, but given my prior dealings with my acquaintance, and the content of his texts to me, there was absolutely nothing to suggest Ms. Kaye's characterization of him had any basis in reality.

There's a point where you just have to accept that some people are simply impossible to deal with.  I totally understand your post, dePlage, and respect where you're coming from.  My opinion is that it's wishful thinking.

[filledeplage]

Carol didn't have to complain about it just because it's not true and on the other hand we don't have to complain about her complaining about it, because it isn't true.  

One reason I complain about her complaining is that she implies, or even said explicitly in one interview, that it's a stupid question, which is a little insulting to Pohlman. It's also insulting to the film makers, I think.

If she said it was stupid, she could have phrased it better.  Do we know if she knows Ray Pohlman asked the question and she intended to insult him?

Maybe it's just me but the insult be putting the false words in someone's mouth, in the name of artistic license or no.

I have no idea if she knows that he said it. I would guess not, because it seems so rude otherwise, but...
I've never really taken the amalgamation of characters to be insulting in itself. There's always the risk of insult certainly, depending on how it's managed. I certainly didn't perceive that her character was presented as a 'bimbo' (her word). She did, but she bases that on assigning Pohlman's question to her, implying that Pohlman's a bimbo. If I perceived that I was portrayed as a bimbo, I'd be insulted. But I feel a bit like she's defensive and perceives insults that aren't there.
If film-makers didn't amalgamate characters when making biographies, biographical films would be impossible.

I admit I'm biased on this topic because the person who supposedly gave the "bimbo" performance is my best friend and longtime bass player.  And a damn good one, I might add, and about as far from a bimbo as one can get in real life.   She's a personification of what Kaye pioneered in that she's a female musician in a band and people that play with her give her gender just about zero thought.  She does her job.  And I know that she (my friend) was hurt by the "bimbo" bit even though she would never say so - and she's far from the first to come away with a sour feeling because of something Ms. Kaye said or did.

If the line were given to Pohlman, then there would be anger, I am sure, because Pohlman's character was given a line and Kaye wasn't, both on ego and sexism grounds (and I would somewhat agree on the latter - Ms. Kaye should have been, and was, featured).  It is clear from Ms. Kaye's track record that she has an eternal axe to grind.

I think the real problem Kaye has with the portrayal - and I'm not sure I am kidding about this - is her film character came across as a nice person.  To someone who had her teeth gritted in the sexist world of the '60s studio, she probably wanted to see (to use the un-PC term of the period) a "tougher broad."  But that doesn't excuse her absolute gracelessness or disinterest in the bigger picture of showing some class - not to mention not tarnishing her own legacy.

adamghost - I wish the "right person" would be able to approach Carol.  She is 81, so I suppose she grew up at the very end of the Depression or it's after-effects.  I can only liken that generation to what I know about teaching.  I know that in most school systems you could not teach once you were married, and those policies continued until the late 50's and early 60's.  From there, you could not be pregnant, even up until the mid to late 60's and work.  Women hid their marriages and their pregnancies.  

It was a different world and shocking because I could be married, teach, and carry a baby up to (and beyond) my due date.  The unions fought against that type of discrimination.  It was not until the mid to late 60's that there was equal pay for men and women who held the same degrees and credentials.  

That is just an analogy from my occupation to wonder how hard (did she belong to a union where there was equal pay for men and women?) things must have been for her.  Even this week, a woman firefighter committed suicide and there are indications that she was bullied.  So, Carol might have some old baggage that she cannot get past.   The "right person" might be able to elicit a better perspective, going forward.  And I thought she was very well portrayed in the film.  They all were - right down to Landy.  

But when I re-read Jules Siegel, and how he characterized her, I felt sick to my stomach. And she has to know that, this article is in the textbooks for posterity.  Maybe Carol feels that having to combat this bad characterization (in this article) is just too overwhelming and from that point on, Carol felt burned forever.    JMHO of course  

Well...my mom was born in the '20s and had an IQ of 160.  She was a published author and professor of French at SUNY but she was forced to quit when she became pregnant with me.  I don't think she liked that one bit.  But I don't recall her ranting to the ages about it when she was 81.  She went on with her life, wrote more books, and earned the respect of everyone she ever met with her intelligence, wisdom and class.  

I know that by right person you may well mean somebody that's female (and my sympathy for that angle evaporated when she basically called my friend's portrayal in a film, someone who epitomizes the best of feminism, that of a "bimbo") but - quick true story - an acquaintance who I know to be a very good guy texted me one day not long ago all excited because Carol Kaye wanted to work with him to tell her story properly.  I warned him she might be difficult, but he said don't worry, he was a psychologist and he would go in with the right attitude.  

Fast forward a few months later and Ms. Kaye - poster above please take note - was calling my acquaintance out by name on Facebook, warning people about him, basically accusing him of being a stalker and explicitly suggesting he was mentally imbalanced.

Anything's possible of course, but given my prior dealings with my acquaintance, and the content of his texts to me, there was absolutely nothing to suggest Ms. Kaye's characterization of him had any basis in reality.

There's a point where you just have to accept that some people are simply impossible to deal with.  I totally understand your post, dePlage, and respect where you're coming from.  My opinion is that it's wishful thinking.

adamghost - Your mom sounds great.  That was a potential direction I was going in, but could not do a double major undergrad, so I chose Early Childhood. I did some part-time post grad study in French, much later, after taking a bunch of grammar courses to bring it back, and which was even better reading, for me, as an adult with an adult perspective.  It is great literature, that we can still learn from today, I think.  Bravo to her!  And, you are so lucky to still have your mom.  I am still waiting for my "junior year abroad." - Mon année scolaire.   

The older teachers I worked with, would joke that they had "to tell the principal," they were pregnant, before they could tell their husbands. Women got very creative hiding "their delicate conditions" to stay working. By the time I came into teaching, I could work until the day I delivered and I did.  Some things had changed, thankfully.

But, I don't mean a woman necessarily to elicit her story and reflections on what it was really like to survive alongside a largely male group of co-workers. I did say "person." Often there was an assumption that if you are the only woman among a bunch of guys that you must be a "bimbo." Otherwise you would not be there as the only female.  I got the impression that she got some of that treatment from the Wrecking Crew movie.  I bet Brian could interview her, and get some great responses.  She seems to adore him.

People take disappointment, hurt and bad treatment in many ways.  Some can move on and leave it behind, and others cannot let it go and it eats away at them.  It does not have to be a woman but someone who can get beyond what seems to make her so unhappy and frustrated and hard to deal with.  If that is the problem only she can take that step to healing.

Maybe it is wishful thinking but just from being with kids for so long, I know when they "act out" that there is something underlying that is causing that response that has hurt them somehow.  What you have shared about her Facebook behavior, in your post is not a good thing. It is too bad, because it is important for young women to look to good, strong pioneers.  It would be nice to see her "soften" and maybe look backwards more philosophically.     

Carol was beautifully portrayed by your friend. 

And, thanks, I loved hearing what you shared about your mom.   

My hero! 

[adamghost]

Carol didn't have to complain about it just because it's not true and on the other hand we don't have to complain about her complaining about it, because it isn't true.  

One reason I complain about her complaining is that she implies, or even said explicitly in one interview, that it's a stupid question, which is a little insulting to Pohlman. It's also insulting to the film makers, I think.

If she said it was stupid, she could have phrased it better.  Do we know if she knows Ray Pohlman asked the question and she intended to insult him?

Maybe it's just me but the insult be putting the false words in someone's mouth, in the name of artistic license or no.

I have no idea if she knows that he said it. I would guess not, because it seems so rude otherwise, but...
I've never really taken the amalgamation of characters to be insulting in itself. There's always the risk of insult certainly, depending on how it's managed. I certainly didn't perceive that her character was presented as a 'bimbo' (her word). She did, but she bases that on assigning Pohlman's question to her, implying that Pohlman's a bimbo. If I perceived that I was portrayed as a bimbo, I'd be insulted. But I feel a bit like she's defensive and perceives insults that aren't there.
If film-makers didn't amalgamate characters when making biographies, biographical films would be impossible.

I admit I'm biased on this topic because the person who supposedly gave the "bimbo" performance is my best friend and longtime bass player.  And a damn good one, I might add, and about as far from a bimbo as one can get in real life.   She's a personification of what Kaye pioneered in that she's a female musician in a band and people that play with her give her gender just about zero thought.  She does her job.  And I know that she (my friend) was hurt by the "bimbo" bit even though she would never say so - and she's far from the first to come away with a sour feeling because of something Ms. Kaye said or did.

If the line were given to Pohlman, then there would be anger, I am sure, because Pohlman's character was given a line and Kaye wasn't, both on ego and sexism grounds (and I would somewhat agree on the latter - Ms. Kaye should have been, and was, featured).  It is clear from Ms. Kaye's track record that she has an eternal axe to grind.

I think the real problem Kaye has with the portrayal - and I'm not sure I am kidding about this - is her film character came across as a nice person.  To someone who had her teeth gritted in the sexist world of the '60s studio, she probably wanted to see (to use the un-PC term of the period) a "tougher broad."  But that doesn't excuse her absolute gracelessness or disinterest in the bigger picture of showing some class - not to mention not tarnishing her own legacy.

adamghost - I wish the "right person" would be able to approach Carol.  She is 81, so I suppose she grew up at the very end of the Depression or it's after-effects.  I can only liken that generation to what I know about teaching.  I know that in most school systems you could not teach once you were married, and those policies continued until the late 50's and early 60's.  From there, you could not be pregnant, even up until the mid to late 60's and work.  Women hid their marriages and their pregnancies.  

It was a different world and shocking because I could be married, teach, and carry a baby up to (and beyond) my due date.  The unions fought against that type of discrimination.  It was not until the mid to late 60's that there was equal pay for men and women who held the same degrees and credentials.  

That is just an analogy from my occupation to wonder how hard (did she belong to a union where there was equal pay for men and women?) things must have been for her.  Even this week, a woman firefighter committed suicide and there are indications that she was bullied.  So, Carol might have some old baggage that she cannot get past.   The "right person" might be able to elicit a better perspective, going forward.  And I thought she was very well portrayed in the film.  They all were - right down to Landy.  

But when I re-read Jules Siegel, and how he characterized her, I felt sick to my stomach. And she has to know that, this article is in the textbooks for posterity.  Maybe Carol feels that having to combat this bad characterization (in this article) is just too overwhelming and from that point on, Carol felt burned forever.    JMHO of course  

Well...my mom was born in the '20s and had an IQ of 160.  She was a published author and professor of French at SUNY but she was forced to quit when she became pregnant with me.  I don't think she liked that one bit.  But I don't recall her ranting to the ages about it when she was 81.  She went on with her life, wrote more books, and earned the respect of everyone she ever met with her intelligence, wisdom and class.  

I know that by right person you may well mean somebody that's female (and my sympathy for that angle evaporated when she basically called my friend's portrayal in a film, someone who epitomizes the best of feminism, that of a "bimbo") but - quick true story - an acquaintance who I know to be a very good guy texted me one day not long ago all excited because Carol Kaye wanted to work with him to tell her story properly.  I warned him she might be difficult, but he said don't worry, he was a psychologist and he would go in with the right attitude.  

Fast forward a few months later and Ms. Kaye - poster above please take note - was calling my acquaintance out by name on Facebook, warning people about him, basically accusing him of being a stalker and explicitly suggesting he was mentally imbalanced.

Anything's possible of course, but given my prior dealings with my acquaintance, and the content of his texts to me, there was absolutely nothing to suggest Ms. Kaye's characterization of him had any basis in reality.

There's a point where you just have to accept that some people are simply impossible to deal with.  I totally understand your post, dePlage, and respect where you're coming from.  My opinion is that it's wishful thinking.

adamghost - Your mom sounds great.  That was a potential direction I was going in, but could not do a double major undergrad, so I chose Early Childhood. I did some part-time post grad study in French, much later, after taking a bunch of grammar courses to bring it back, and which was even better reading, for me, as an adult with an adult perspective.  It is great literature, that we can still learn from today, I think.  Bravo to her!  And, you are so lucky to still have your mom.  I am still waiting for my "junior year abroad." - Mon année scolaire.    

The older teachers I worked with, would joke that they had "to tell the principal," they were pregnant, before they could tell their husbands. Women got very creative hiding "their delicate conditions" to stay working. By the time I came into teaching, I could work until the day I delivered and I did.  Some things had changed, thankfully.

But, I don't mean a woman necessarily to elicit her story and reflections on what it was really like to survive alongside a largely male group of co-workers. I did say "person." Often there was an assumption that if you are the only woman among a bunch of guys that you must be a "bimbo." Otherwise you would not be there as the only female.  I got the impression that she got some of that treatment from the Wrecking Crew movie.  I bet Brian could interview her, and get some great responses.  She seems to adore him.

People take disappointment, hurt and bad treatment in many ways.  Some can move on and leave it behind, and others cannot let it go and it eats away at them.  It does not have to be a woman but someone who can get beyond what seems to make her so unhappy and frustrated and hard to deal with.  If that is the problem only she can take that step to healing.

Maybe it is wishful thinking but just from being with kids for so long, I know when they "act out" that there is something underlying that is causing that response that has hurt them somehow.  What you have shared about her Facebook behavior, in your post is not a good thing. It is too bad, because it is important for young women to look to good, strong pioneers.  It would be nice to see her "soften" and maybe look backwards more philosophically.    

Carol was beautifully portrayed by your friend.  

And, thanks, I loved hearing what you shared about your mom.  

My hero!  

Aw thank you for your sweet post.  It was really lovely.  My mom was my role model.  She died in June 2013, sadly, but she was ready to go.  She also edited several weekly newspapers and co-wrote the Cliff's Notes to "Les Miserables."  Her brother was the plant geneticist that brought us canola oil, so she came from a brilliant family.  I was truly blessed.



Which has nothing to do with the Beach Boys...but having spent my life being around strong women, and one of them being the supposed "bimbo" in question, I admit Ms. Kaye's comments and general attitude rankles more than it otherwise might.  Besides being uncool it also runs counter to my own definition of feminism.  But I do believe the nicest way to look at it is that she is unfortunately ill and she certainly has endured her share of hardships.