Carol Kaye interview...

[LostArt]

She's had a great career, but, well, we've talked much about Carol already.  More of the same here, really.

http://www.vulture.com/2016/04/carol-kaye-sets-record-straight.html

[You Kane, You Commanded, You Conquered]

She's had a great career, but, well, we've talked much about Carol already.  More of the same here, really.

http://www.vulture.com/2016/04/carol-kaye-sets-record-straight.html

She's 81! For some reason I thought she was the same age as Brian.

[Juice Brohnston]

Not happy as usual...

"About that recent article:
>>>>>>>>Well they swore they weren't going to mention that wrecking name, and they did, and not only that, they quoted the Love and Mercy film which is further slander as well as many many wrong things, too numerous to mention - I never said that at all but they felt that they have to quote that film - I told them the film had my part totally wrong.............I was afraid that they'd go for stuff that wasn't right, a little tacky on their questions but they assured me "we're your best fans - we won't mention that name nor the wrong stuff in Love & Mercy"...........that's the last time I'll believe that line.
Unfortunately......it's just another wrong article quoting some slander which they said they wouldn't do but they did anyway. Thx. This is why I turn down about 90% of requests for articles, they're into "staritis" and show-biz vulture stuff too much."[/About that recent article:

[Emily]

She's had a great career, but, well, we've talked much about Carol already.  More of the same here, really.

http://www.vulture.com/2016/04/carol-kaye-sets-record-straight.html

She's 81! For some reason I thought she was the same age as Brian.

Nah, they always talk about Brian like he was just a kid. An amazing kid, but a kid.

[Pretty Funky]

Not happy as usual...

"About that recent article:
>>>>>>>>Well they swore they weren't going to mention that wrecking name, and they did, and not only that, they quoted the Love and Mercy film which is further slander as well as many many wrong things, too numerous to mention - I never said that at all but they felt that they have to quote that film - I told them the film had my part totally wrong.............I was afraid that they'd go for stuff that wasn't right, a little tacky on their questions but they assured me "we're your best fans - we won't mention that name nor the wrong stuff in Love & Mercy"...........that's the last time I'll believe that line.
Unfortunately......it's just another wrong article quoting some slander which they said they wouldn't do but they did anyway. Thx. This is why I turn down about 90% of requests for articles, they're into "staritis" and show-biz vulture stuff too much."[/About that recent article:

First world problem Carol. Not unlike millionaires fighting over song writing credits. How about those earthquakes in Japan and Equador huh?

[Emily]

Yeah. She gets all tizzed out about the quirkiest things.

[petsoundsnola]

Yeah. She gets all tizzed out about the quirkiest things.

Such as cursing out the ice cream man?

[HeyJude]

When it got to the part about yelling at the ice cream truck, I thought I was reading an article from "The Onion" for a moment.

[Emily]

This is the second time I've seen that "no way would Carol Kaye have asked about those two keys; they're just trying to make the woman look dumb" claim.
My understanding is that the made character amalgamations for obvious practical purposes; they chose her to be representative of multiple musicians and cut others out (imagine what she would have said if they cut her out); Ray Pohlman (I think it was) is quoted saying that he asked Brian about some line simultaneously in two keys and Brian said, "I think it'll work. Let's try it." And Pohlman expressed surprise that it did.
So, they gave a real-life Pohlman anecdote to Carol Kaye and cut Pohlman as a character. Insulting to Carol Kaye?

[Emdeeh]

I forget who it was who told the story -- definitely not Carol Kaye -- but the anecdote about the two keys is related in the bonus interviews section of the Wrecking Crew BluRay/DVD package. So it really happened, just not with Carol.

[37!ws]

The commentary on the DVD/Blu-ray explains the actual purpose of including the "two different keys" dialogs. It's....very eye-opening. (Seriously, people, watch Love and Mercy with the commentary. It's like seeing the movie for the first time all over again.)

[Mr. Verlander]

She has to be bi-polar or something. She seems to have terrible mood swings. Not to mention bad luck. Her first husband and fiance died in the same week? I guess that'd make me a bit bitter towards the world.

[RangeRoverA1]

She has to be bi-polar or something. She seems to have terrible mood swings. Not to mention bad luck. Her first husband and fiance died in the same week? I guess that'd make me a bit bitter towards the world.

one of her daughters too. Have to admit, I am biased toward female guitarists, so I like Carol. It's very difficult instrument.

[Jukka]

Yeah, okay, seems like she can be difficult. But you know what? Beethoven was a dick. John Lennon was a dick. John Fogerty. Dylan. Miles Davis. As an instrumentalist, CK is in the same genius league as they are, and that's not even stretching it. Why don't people cut her the same slack as for the aforementioned? Great musicians very rarely are easy people to deal with, so deal with it.

Edit: i'm not saying it's okay to be a dick if you're good at music, but just saying, treat 'em equal.

[CosmicDancer]

Yes, lots of musicians, entertainers, and even regular people can be jerks.  There is no denying that.  If Carol was just an egomaniac or less than nice, I don't think she'd get as much crap as she does.  What bothers me, and I dare say most others, about her is that she continually demeans the work of other musicians by insisting that she played certain parts on certain songs despite the fact that hard evidence exists and has been presented to her showing otherwise.  I don't think anyone expects someone who has done so much work in the business to have a perfect memory, especially later in life, but if someone shows absolute proof that goes against your statement, why not acknowledge it and move on?  It's not only a hit on her, it also tarnishes the legacy of the people that actually did play those sessions. 

Carol Kaye is a legend.  Her place in music history is undeniable and incredibly influential.  She doesn't need to claim other artists work as her own to bolster her reputation.  Her repertoire is far above that.  I think she still hangs on the the hang ups of being a female in a male dominated world  in her time and still feels that she has to validate herself and that any accusation that she feels is "against" her is seen as an attack, even if there is legit evidence to back it up, and she gets defensive.  It's understandable if you have experienced a background of sexist attitudes against you, but again, her legacy speaks for itself.  She doesn't need to continually fib to build herself up.

[filledeplage]

Yes, lots of musicians, entertainers, and even regular people can be jerks.  There is no denying that.  If Carol was just an egomaniac or less than nice, I don't think she'd get as much crap as she does.  What bothers me, and I dare say most others, about her is that she continually demeans the work of other musicians by insisting that she played certain parts on certain songs despite the fact that hard evidence exists and has been presented to her showing otherwise.  I don't think anyone expects someone who has done so much work in the business to have a perfect memory, especially later in life, but if someone shows absolute proof that goes against your statement, why not acknowledge it and move on?  It's not only a hit on her, it also tarnishes the legacy of the people that actually did play those sessions. 

Carol Kaye is a legend.  Her place in music history is undeniable and incredibly influential.  She doesn't need to claim other artists work as her own to bolster her reputation.  Her repertoire is far above that.  I think she still hangs on the the hang ups of being a female in a male dominated world  in her time and still feels that she has to validate herself and that any accusation that she feels is "against" her is seen as an attack, even if there is legit evidence to back it up, and she gets defensive.  It's understandable if you have experienced a background of sexist attitudes against you, but again, her legacy speaks for itself.  She doesn't need to continually fib to build herself up.

Cosmic Dancer - When I think of how hard it must have been for Carol in Music within a man's world, I can cut her a lot of slack with whatever details might be inconsistent.  She must have had to develop a thick skin to withstand the b.s.  Re-reading years later, how Jules Siegel reported on some of the sessions, I found his characterization of her utterly disgusting and more-so because it found it's way into textbooks for young people to believe that garbage.   

Maybe he was just in that macho-man mindset that occupied time and space in those days.  When they talk about omitted musicians for various awards, I think just surviving the sexist eras should put her in a unique class.  Brian likes her work.  That is enough for me. 

[KDS]

I think Carol should be proud that she's as recognized as she is today. 

A lot of session musicians from the 50s and 60s were just faceless players, but thanks in part to her association with Brian Wilson, she's not just a faceless bassist (say that three times fast). 

[Emily]

Yeah, okay, seems like she can be difficult. But you know what? Beethoven was a dick. John Lennon was a dick. John Fogerty. Dylan. Miles Davis. As an instrumentalist, CK is in the same genius league as they are, and that's not even stretching it. Why don't people cut her the same slack as for the aforementioned? Great musicians very rarely are easy people to deal with, so deal with it.

Edit: i'm not saying it's okay to be a dick if you're good at music, but just saying, treat 'em equal.

I'm not saying she's not a great bass player.  When I read a thing about John Lennon, of whom I a big fan, and the journalist lets a lot of his false statements or exaggerations pass, I'd mention that on a message board as well.
How many threads have you seen about Lennon or Dylan where someone didn't point out all their actual or perceived flaws?

And, those people were not only great instrumentalists they were also great composers or lyricists or both.

[HeyJude]

Yeah, okay, seems like she can be difficult. But you know what? Beethoven was a dick. John Lennon was a dick. John Fogerty. Dylan. Miles Davis. As an instrumentalist, CK is in the same genius league as they are, and that's not even stretching it. Why don't people cut her the same slack as for the aforementioned? Great musicians very rarely are easy people to deal with, so deal with it.

Edit: i'm not saying it's okay to be a dick if you're good at music, but just saying, treat 'em equal.

It is true that countless famous and noted writers and musicians and famous people are dicks. But I don't think Lennon for instance is comparable to Kaye.

We unfortunately sometimes measure how much of a dick someone is allowed to be based on how good they are at what they do. I'd say Lennon rarely came across as uniformly of a dick as CK does in many interviews and rantings, and I'd also say Lennon's talent and output was far more impressive and *far more unique* than anything CK ever did.

She was (is?) a great bass player, but there were numerous great bass players of her caliber then and now, or of arguably higher caliber. The talent of Lennon (or Fogerty or Beethoven for that matter) to write unique material was, well, far more unique!

I think Brian's stuff (and the stuff of most of the artists she played for) would have been recorded and lauded without CK. Doesn't mean she wasn't a great player.

Meanwhile, Beatles stuff wouldn't have happened or been remotely the same without Lennon, and Fogerty was obviously beyond integral to CCR.

I'd also say Lennon didn't often take credit for vast swaths of material that perhaps other people wrote or played. Sure, he was a little butt-hurt when Harrison wrote his book and barely mentioned Lennon. But on stuff like songwriting, it's interesting that Lennon and McCartney in separate interviews over the years almost never disagreed about who wrote what. I think it's documented that they disagreed on about two songs in their entire catalog, and even then one wasn't trying to strip the other of songwriting credit even on those songs.

Make no mistake, Lennon and McCartney both lived (and live) high on the hog and had moments of showbiz sell-out. But they also both did a ton of stuff for a myriad of charities, and obviously Lennon was vocal as an anti-war advocate, etc.

In the list of people that are infamous for being "dicks", I'd say perhaps Fogerty regularly appears on that list. Even then, most of his vitriol, rightly or wrongly, seems to be pointed specifically at former CCR members, as opposed to random "Ice Cream Truck" drivers.

I've never seen Lennon put on such lists. He's known to have had many personal flaws (at least some of which he admitted to). I've always felt people like Dylan and perhaps even Miles Davis were more on the "eccentric" and "weird" or "difficult" lists more than being known as total dicks in the industry. 

[37!ws]

Yes, the aforementioned people may have shown signs of dickery. But consider this: making claims about playing on records you didn't (in which there's documented proof that you didn't play on them), and then having an attorney send a threatening letter because that person called you out on claiming you played on those recordings? That...is true dickery. (It's especially telling when that lawyer sends a follow-up letter apologizing...) That woman....is a piece of work.

(I still love how her "proof" that she played the guitar solo on "Surfin' USA" was "I can still play that solo to this day." By that logic, I also played the guitar solos on "Fixing A Hole" and "Atlantis.")

[Jukka]

Well, yeah, true dat... But then again, Carol hasn't killed anyone with a hammer (yet), so that's nice about her.

[KDS]

Well, yeah, true dat... But then again, Carol hasn't killed anyone with a hammer (yet), so that's nice about her.

Puts her above Jim Gordon, I suppose. 

[CenturyDeprived]

Yeah, okay, seems like she can be difficult. But you know what? Beethoven was a dick. John Lennon was a dick. John Fogerty. Dylan. Miles Davis. As an instrumentalist, CK is in the same genius league as they are, and that's not even stretching it. Why don't people cut her the same slack as for the aforementioned? Great musicians very rarely are easy people to deal with, so deal with it.

Edit: i'm not saying it's okay to be a dick if you're good at music, but just saying, treat 'em equal.

It is true that countless famous and noted writers and musicians and famous people are dicks. But I don't think Lennon for instance is comparable to Kaye.

We unfortunately sometimes measure how much of a dick someone is allowed to be based on how good they are at what they do. I'd say Lennon rarely came across as uniformly of a dick as CK does in many interviews and rantings, and I'd also say Lennon's talent and output was far more impressive and *far more unique* than anything CK ever did.

She was (is?) a great bass player, but there were numerous great bass players of her caliber then and now, or of arguably higher caliber. The talent of Lennon (or Fogerty or Beethoven for that matter) to write unique material was, well, far more unique!

I think Brian's stuff (and the stuff of most of the artists she played for) would have been recorded and lauded without CK. Doesn't mean she wasn't a great player.

Meanwhile, Beatles stuff wouldn't have happened or been remotely the same without Lennon, and Fogerty was obviously beyond integral to CCR.

I'd also say Lennon didn't often take credit for vast swaths of material that perhaps other people wrote or played. Sure, he was a little butt-hurt when Harrison wrote his book and barely mentioned Lennon. But on stuff like songwriting, it's interesting that Lennon and McCartney in separate interviews over the years almost never disagreed about who wrote what. I think it's documented that they disagreed on about two songs in their entire catalog, and even then one wasn't trying to strip the other of songwriting credit even on those songs.

Make no mistake, Lennon and McCartney both lived (and live) high on the hog and had moments of showbiz sell-out. But they also both did a ton of stuff for a myriad of charities, and obviously Lennon was vocal as an anti-war advocate, etc.

In the list of people that are infamous for being "dicks", I'd say perhaps Fogerty regularly appears on that list. Even then, most of his vitriol, rightly or wrongly, seems to be pointed specifically at former CCR members, as opposed to random "Ice Cream Truck" drivers.

I've never seen Lennon put on such lists. He's known to have had many personal flaws (at least some of which he admitted to). I've always felt people like Dylan and perhaps even Miles Davis were more on the "eccentric" and "weird" or "difficult" lists more than being known as total dicks in the industry.  

I wonder how much of Carol's behavior is partially a result of her not being super wealthy (or even particularly wealthy at all - I am just assuming she may struggle, since she still gives Skype lessons for cash, for example), and her being super bitter about that.

I also wonder how Mike would react if someone asked him about Carol Kaye's reputation in relation to her crediting inconsistencies.

I respectfully think Carol Kaye may be suffering from some sort of mental illness, and really it's just quite sad to see her reputation sputter out, because she is a rad pioneer in so many ways.

[Jukka]

Yes. She's a pioneer, who played on hit after hit after hit, yet she lost her home to bank a few years back... That can make one bitter. Plus, people often get crankier when they get older (a fact demonstrated by one or two posters on this board, haha...) If CK had Love/Wilson or LenMac-amounts of cash, story could be different.

[adamghost]

I think the woman is ill, and it's sad.