Would Al have had more lead vocals if he'd never quit in '62?

[CenturyDeprived]

It seems that Al was incredibly under-utilized as a lead vocalist in the early days, especially considering how solid his voice was.

The fact that there were very few lead vocals spread around to the members other than Mike and Brian in the first few years of the band, I would think, would seem to be a symptom of Denny being young and lacking vocal confidence/chops, while Carl's lack of leads might possibly have been due to him being shy? I've always wondered if Carl was offered and declined lead vocals pre-All Dressed Up For School (not counting Summertime Blues, which was sung in unison with Dave, and was probably thought of as a throwaway filler track anyway)... and perhaps Brian wasn't fully confident of Dave's voice at the young age that he was at the time.

But what about Al? While we don't seem to have recorded BB evidence of his solo voice in a pre-Christmas Day context, it would seem that Al would have brought quite a lot to the table if he'd been a lead vocalist for at least some songs on the first few albums. I tend to think that if Al had never quit, Brian would have spread some leads more to Al, and perhaps Mike would have been less of "THE" lead singer of that era. I still think Mike would have had the most leads by a large margin, but maybe the chops of the other members would have been better known.

And perhaps the fact that even after rejoining, Al still got quite few leads, might be due to the fact that he was still thought of as an outsider/for-hire type of member for a time, and even less of a member of the "club" than he would have been thought of for reasons of not being related - now he was not only the only non-relative, but a guy who was playing catch-up in terms of leverage and how many bones might have been thrown his way due to him being thought of as a quitter too.

What does everyone think?

[KDS]

I honestly don't think Al wouldn't received any additional leads. 

In seemed like the Boys were pretty happy to have Mike and Brian take the leads on the early albums, with a token lead from Dennis. 

[Please delete my account]

I think so. Gotta be in it to win it.

[CenturyDeprived]

I honestly don't think Al wouldn't received any additional leads.  

In seemed like the Boys were pretty happy to have Mike and Brian take the leads on the early albums, with a token lead from Dennis.  

My original question I posed in this thread popped into my head when, last night, I was playing a BB greatest hits comp for my girlfriend, and she asked why Al was chosen for the lead vocal duties on Help Me, Rhonda. Al sounds fantastic on that song, no doubt... and when you hear Al on that tune, it does beg the questions - why was that guy utilized so little up until that time, as well as what was the reasoning that went into Brian choosing Al to sing that particular track?

I just think that there had to be some politics involved, at least to a point, of who got to sing what. Obviously, Brian was ultimately gonna choose who he was gonna choose, but it would seem odd that a talent like Al would just be sitting there unused for so long, and then suddenly when Rhonda comes along, Brian all of a sudden gets the idea that it might be a good idea to have this guy sing one of Brian's better songs. Not sure how that quite makes sense. I think all sorts of stuff was at play that played into the decision making process of who sang what.

Al was by far the lowest on the totem pole in terms of leverage, which IMO had to both be a result of being non-related *as well as* being a quitter who was now for-hire.

One might ask the opposite question... would Mike have gotten as many leads in the early days if he was the one guy who wasn't related and had also quit the band earlier?  Despite how much Mike was often needed as an essential element during that era, I still think the answer to those questions is fairly obvious.

[Emily]

The interpersonal dynamics at that time are pretty unclear to me. I'd always assumed that Carl's lack of leads was due to his youth, as well.

I think an impression of Al lacking commitment at that time may have contributed. It also might be that they considered it important to limit the number of lead vocalists for the sake of a recognizable image.

Also, I've never understood the idea of Mike being the lead singer. Pre-Pet Sounds, I think he and Brian had the exact same number of leads (42 each) on studio albums.

[drbeachboy]

Hell, Carl was in the group the whole time, so why was he under utilized through 1966? It wasn't until Smiley Smile or really Wild Honey that he came into his own as a lead singer.

[KDS]

The interpersonal dynamics at that time are pretty unclear to me. I'd always assumed that Carl's lack of leads was due to his youth, as well.

I think an impression of Al lacking commitment at that time may have contributed. It also might be that they considered it important to limit the number of lead vocalists for the sake of a recognizable image.

Also, I've never understood the idea of Mike being the lead singer. Pre-Pet Sounds, I think he and Brian had the exact same number of leads (42 each) on studio albums.

Mike was also the lead singer because he didn't play an instrument and was the MC at their shows. 

[CenturyDeprived]

Hell, Carl was in the group the whole time, so why was he under utilized through 1966? It wasn't until Smiley Smile or really Wild Honey that he came into his own as a lead singer.

This is something that I've always wondered too. Especially since Carl totally kicks and sounds absolutely awesome as early as 1964 on All Dressed Up For School (which of course the public never heard until decades later), it wouldn't have been a secret internally within the band how rad Carl sounded on a solo lead vocal. I wonder if Carl was simply self-conscious about it, and also if it had something to do with his weight.

[Emily]

The interpersonal dynamics at that time are pretty unclear to me. I'd always assumed that Carl's lack of leads was due to his youth, as well.

I think an impression of Al lacking commitment at that time may have contributed. It also might be that they considered it important to limit the number of lead vocalists for the sake of a recognizable image.

Also, I've never understood the idea of Mike being the lead singer. Pre-Pet Sounds, I think he and Brian had the exact same number of leads (42 each) on studio albums.

Mike was also the lead singer because he didn't play an instrument and was the MC at their shows. 

but... neither of those are related. Are you saying that he was accorded the title 'lead singer' to sort of make up for feeling belittled because he didn't play an instrument? Or are you saying not playing an instrument makes him the lead singer? I don't really get it.

[bachelorofbullets]

I think your answer can be found in the infamous Rhonda session where Murray instructs Al to "syncopate".  I guess they didn't think much of Al's singing at that time.

In a way it worked out for the better, because the sound of the Beach Boys...to me...has always been about Carl and Al singing harmony.

 

[CenturyDeprived]

It also might be that they considered it important to limit the number of lead vocalists for the sake of a recognizable image.

I had never considered this, but that sounds like it could have been a plausible mindset at the time. Or at least that it sounds like an idea that Mike could have said to Brian.

However, I think that if Denny in the early days had been a more confident lead singer, or someone who Brian thought sounded more "commercial" as a lead vocalist, that he'd have had a few more leads (and on better material) than what actually played out - especially because of Denny's unparalleled popularity... of course, I imagine that scenario would surely have caused even more internal jealousy from Mike.

[KDS]

The interpersonal dynamics at that time are pretty unclear to me. I'd always assumed that Carl's lack of leads was due to his youth, as well.

I think an impression of Al lacking commitment at that time may have contributed. It also might be that they considered it important to limit the number of lead vocalists for the sake of a recognizable image.

Also, I've never understood the idea of Mike being the lead singer. Pre-Pet Sounds, I think he and Brian had the exact same number of leads (42 each) on studio albums.

Mike was also the lead singer because he didn't play an instrument and was the MC at their shows. 

but... neither of those are related. Are you saying that he was accorded the title 'lead singer' to sort of make up for feeling belittled because he didn't play an instrument? Or are you saying not playing an instrument makes him the lead singer? I don't really get it.

I'm not 100% sure of the dynamic, but I think he was also the only one who really had the persona of being a lead singer when they cut Surfin. 

[drbeachboy]

Hell, Carl was in the group the whole time, so why was he under utilized through 1966? It wasn't until Smiley Smile or really Wild Honey that he came into his own as a lead singer.

This is something that I've always wondered too. Especially since Carl totally kicks and sounds absolutely awesome as early as 1964 on All Dressed Up For School (which of course the public never heard until decades later), it wouldn't have been a secret internally within the band how rad Carl sounded on a solo lead vocal. I wonder if Carl was simply self-conscious about it, and also if it had something to do with his weight.

Personally, I think it may have been just a structure thing. Brian & Mike were the lead singers. Occasionally, Dennis the drummer gets a lead, while Carl & Al were the harmony singers. Once Brian went off the road, everything had to change for the live show and so to with the studio leads. These would be the guys who would be singing the songs live here on out.

[CenturyDeprived]

I think your answer can be found in the infamous Rhonda session where Murray instructs Al to "syncopate".  I guess they didn't think much of Al's singing at that time.

In a way it worked out for the better, because the sound of the Beach Boys...to me...has always been about Carl and Al singing harmony.

 

How does Murry = "they"? Murry was one guy, and not a member of the band at that. Not sure how Murry's thoughts would have meant that Brian or the other Boys would have felt the same way.

And Murry would have been picking on any/all of them if he could just to serve Murry's own ego and desperate need for feeling like a guy who contributed important ideas, most especially aimed at a guy who wouldn't be able to stand up to Murry if only due to how low-ranking Al was in the organization at the time.

I don't think the berating aimed at Al by Murry at the Rhonda session really means jack squat when it comes to how good Al actually was at the time, or how the other band members thought of Al's capabilities at the time either.

[Emily]

The interpersonal dynamics at that time are pretty unclear to me. I'd always assumed that Carl's lack of leads was due to his youth, as well.

I think an impression of Al lacking commitment at that time may have contributed. It also might be that they considered it important to limit the number of lead vocalists for the sake of a recognizable image.

Also, I've never understood the idea of Mike being the lead singer. Pre-Pet Sounds, I think he and Brian had the exact same number of leads (42 each) on studio albums.

Mike was also the lead singer because he didn't play an instrument and was the MC at their shows. 

but... neither of those are related. Are you saying that he was accorded the title 'lead singer' to sort of make up for feeling belittled because he didn't play an instrument? Or are you saying not playing an instrument makes him the lead singer? I don't really get it.

I'm not 100% sure of the dynamic, but I think he was also the only one who really had the persona of being a lead singer when they cut Surfin. 

Makes sense as a 'persona' thing.

[Emily]

It also might be that they considered it important to limit the number of lead vocalists for the sake of a recognizable image.

I had never considered this, but that sounds like it could have been a plausible mindset at the time. Or at least that it sounds like an idea that Mike could have said to Brian.

However, I think that if Denny in the early days had been a more confident lead singer, or someone who Brian thought sounded more "commercial" as a lead vocalist, that he'd have had a few more leads (and on better material) than what actually played out - especially because of Denny's unparalleled popularity... of course, I imagine that scenario would surely have caused even more internal jealousy from Mike.

Some people have a lot of trouble singing while drumming. When Dennis did leads live, didn't someone else usually take over the drums? Also, it's my impression that a lot of people, including Brian, thought that Dennis was pretty uncooperative and difficult in the early years.

[Lonely Summer]

The Beatles had John and Paul doing most of the leads; the Beach Boys had Mike and Brian. Carl was probably more focused on his guitar playing in the early days than worrying about whether he got to sing some leads or not; Al was probably happy being a harmony singer. I always wondered why Phil Everly didn't get an occasional lead vocal, but I guess the attitude of the Everlys was, Don is the lead singer, Phil is the harmony singer.

[CenturyDeprived]

Once Brian went off the road, everything had to change for the live show and so to with the studio leads. These would be the guys who would be singing the songs live here on out.

That's a fair assumption to make too, and as I've previously mentioned in another thread, I'll restate that I've often wondered if All Dressed Up For School was some sort of experiment pertaining to the changing dynamic of the live band. Specifically, how the band could record a studio version of a song without leaning on Brian for the falsetto, since Al sings falsetto (perhaps his only studio falsetto of the era?) that they could then replicate more accurately with the same touring group members as a live song.

[Autotune]

Initially the BBs were a Brian/Mike-led group. Hence, they took most leads.

Not being a family member may be a factor.

Another one is that Al took some time to develop his own lead-singing style. There is nothing special about his lead on Christmas Day-- other than it's a pleasant lead that could have been sung by any of the guys. It probably took some time for Al to develop confidence and sound as a lead singer.

[CenturyDeprived]

The Beatles had John and Paul doing most of the leads; the Beach Boys had Mike and Brian. Carl was probably more focused on his guitar playing in the early days than worrying about whether he got to sing some leads or not; Al was probably happy being a harmony singer.

That still leaves the question of why Brian turned to Al for a vocal on Help Me Rhonda. Was the decision, in part, a matter of throwing Al a bone?

[Emily]

Initially the BBs were a Brian/Mike-led group. Hence, they took most leads.

But which is the cart and which the horse?

[drbeachboy]

The Beatles had John and Paul doing most of the leads; the Beach Boys had Mike and Brian. Carl was probably more focused on his guitar playing in the early days than worrying about whether he got to sing some leads or not; Al was probably happy being a harmony singer.

That still leaves the question of why Brian turned to Al for a vocal on Help Me Rhonda. Was the decision, in part, a matter of throwing Al a bone?

Sure, it could've been. Originally, it was just an album cut on Today. Brian must of liked what he heard, because he gave the lead back to him for the single version.

[drbeachboy]

Initially the BBs were a Brian/Mike-led group. Hence, they took most leads.

But which is the cart and which the horse?

Not sure what you mean here, but it was pretty much Mike on the fast stuff and Brian on the ballads.

[KDS]

The Beatles had John and Paul doing most of the leads; the Beach Boys had Mike and Brian. Carl was probably more focused on his guitar playing in the early days than worrying about whether he got to sing some leads or not; Al was probably happy being a harmony singer.

That still leaves the question of why Brian turned to Al for a vocal on Help Me Rhonda. Was the decision, in part, a matter of throwing Al a bone?

Or, before that, why was Al given the lead on Christmas Day? 

It seemed odd that Al would be handed his first lead vocal on a Christmas album. 

[CenturyDeprived]

The Beatles had John and Paul doing most of the leads; the Beach Boys had Mike and Brian. Carl was probably more focused on his guitar playing in the early days than worrying about whether he got to sing some leads or not; Al was probably happy being a harmony singer.

That still leaves the question of why Brian turned to Al for a vocal on Help Me Rhonda. Was the decision, in part, a matter of throwing Al a bone?

Sure, it could've been. Originally, it was just an album cut on Today. Brian must of liked what he heard, because he gave the lead back to him for the single version.

I just think that if Al's Rhonda lead was partly Brian throwing Al a bone, that there would have been some more bones thrown Al's way (maybe not a ton more, but at least some) if Al had been around during those early days. Much in the same way that I'd imagine if Dave had stayed in the band for a few more years, that he'd eventually have had a couple pre-Pet Sounds lead vocals.