Lifetime ban on AGD

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Maybe, maybe not.

[The LEGENDARY OSD]

I'm fine with the ban as long as there is hard evidence of what AGD has been accused of.  The only thing I question is was he ever confronted about this previously?  From what people say this has been going on for a while now.  I think it could have been taken care of before it got out of hand considering this all happened through PMs.  I mean, guitarfool openly accused AGD of the pm issue last year, but I don't have all of the info here.

By what we're reading here, apparently GF ws right.

+10

[Doo Dah]

Leaving my own personal bias aside, I still don't know what would propel him to engage in this destructive vendetta. I'm oddly fascinated by it. I really am.

A personal attack against a man's family is something far beyond debates over auto tune. And that would apply to Mike's family as well.

Anyone who would engage in such behavior deserves the olde English tar and feather. There's no moral relativism going on here...it's the third rail.

No hypocrisy, just common sense.

Anyone who would want to PM about it, feel free.

[You Kane, You Commanded, You Conquered]

Leaving my own personal bias aside, I still don't know what would propel him to engage in this destructive vendetta. I'm oddly fascinated by it. I really am.

A personal attack against a man's family is something far beyond debates over auto tune. And that would apply to Mike's family as well.

Anyone who would engage in such behavior deserves the olde English tar and feather. There's no moral relativism going on here...it's the third rail.

No hypocrisy, just common sense.

Anyone who would want to PM about it, feel free.

My theory is that he managed to piss off someone in Brian's circle and was ousted from it. I can't think of any other reason why someone like him would do this. Maybe it was health issues, and if so, that's really sad. But I guess we may never know.

[Doo Dah]

Leaving my own personal bias aside, I still don't know what would propel him to engage in this destructive vendetta. I'm oddly fascinated by it. I really am.

A personal attack against a man's family is something far beyond debates over auto tune. And that would apply to Mike's family as well.

Anyone who would engage in such behavior deserves the olde English tar and feather. There's no moral relativism going on here...it's the third rail.

No hypocrisy, just common sense.

Anyone who would want to PM about it, feel free.

My theory is that he managed to piss off someone in Brian's circle and was ousted from it. I can't think of any other reason why someone like him would do this. Maybe it was health issues, and if so, that's really sad. But I guess we may never know.

If that's the case, then one of his friends should confront him on it and help him work through it. As was mentioned, he wasn't like that back in the old Cabinessence board days. Something is off, and he needs to reflect on that.

[?]

This is all a bunch of high school level bullshit.  Sigh.

[Wirestone]

Brian and Melinda are public figures. Under U.S. law, it's basically impossible to libel (slander is spoken so it doesn't apply here) anyone who is a public figure. AGD likely said something out of bounds -- although goodness knows many have speculated about Melinda's motives in the past and an incredibly unflattering story about her appears in the Stebbins FAQ book -- but there shouldn't be a legal question here.

But this is all depressing and beside the point, I suppose.

[Smilin Ed H]

But I agree with those above that an ongoing bitchfest about someone who can't weigh in himself is pretty pathetic. If you find it fun, you may want to mock my dead grandparents, too. Even easier targets, in that they're very unlikely to be posting pretty much everywhere else online other than here. (In fact I don't believe any of them were remotely competent on any computer, ever. So it would be REALLY easy.) Dancing on graves might seem fun and it's sure easy, but it's unseemly.

Can we grow up a little? If we're going to be nasty, at least have the courage to be nasty to people still around here. But maybe we can even avoid being nasty to each other quite so often.

Now if you'll excuse me, typing doesn't get me any drunker, so I've got work to do. 

Cheers, as they say. It's a shame about the gloaters, though no surprise, sadly. Maybe they should just go down to the pub and have a beer and celebrate.

[Angua]

A few things I want to clarify before this thread gets locked.

Firstly, congrats to the people blaming the mods for the state of the board right now. Perhaps this place would be better if we took Andrew’s advice on a board overhaul. You know, the overhaul where he said that all perma-banned members should be let back onto the board? Because I really want to how No Pier Pressure is a “steaming pile of dogshit” again. I really want to see other posters be compared to suicide bombers. I really want to see Debbie KL get harassed in every thread she posts on again. I really want the image of Joe Thomas throwing himself from a high-rise implanted in my mind again. Sarcasm aside, you people are utterly ridiculous. Perhaps it’s the fact that the C50 ended in shambles (to a lot of fans), perhaps it’s the fact that No Pier Pressure was such a divisive album, perhaps it was the slew of Mike Love comments about Brian that got people enraged in the first place over the last few years. Bans had to occur because people were losing their temper. But no, let’s blame it on the mods instead. Unreal…but not surprising in the least.

Secondly. Andrew was banned for writing some very terrible stuff in PMs…whether bullying or potentially libelous information. I know this because (a) I was sent one (b) I’ve heard from two very respected posters about things they were sent regarding Melinda. Heck, RangeRover came out in this very thread and said she got this stuff along these lines. DrBeachBoy you think some posts on this board are libelous? I’d love to see what you think of these PMs then. Anyone who doesn’t believe these allegations (or doesn’t find them damaging enough to warrant a ban) who is also close to Andrew, I suggest you ask Andrew personally if he would be comfortable with these PMs coming out. There’s a reason these were kept “private” in the first place.

Thirdly. This talk about “civility” is repulsive to me in this thread. I suspected that Cincinnati Kid was basing his stance on certain subjects on bad information a couple weeks ago. I gave my two cents about it. Next thing I know Andrew G Doe is taunting me THREE times publicly on the board. He even revived my “goodbye” thread to mock the fact that I came back. And no, I’m not crying or whining about this, just that some of you seem to care so much about this “civility”, yet it’s okay for Andrew to treat people like sh*t even when he’s clearly in the wrong.

Fourth. Some of you are acting like this thread is so incredibly unfair to Andrew because he’s not here to defend himself. Here’s something that’s actually unfair: reading Melinda come under attack in a PM, where she can’t defend herself. This information WAS spread to people, and was Melinda able to defend herself? Was her family when they came under the same attacks? HELL NO! Another thing: some of you in this very thread bitch and whine that OSD and Smile Brian are still apart of this board even though they engage in trollish behavior. You spend a paragraph whining about that, yet nary a word about a NOTED and RESPECTED Beach Boys historian spreading trash about The Wilson family and their friends…no that’s okay, and we need to make a special AGD section, with a referee to make sure he’s telling the truth. You realize how utterly ridiculous that sounds?

Do whatever you want with the thread Billy. But I suggest you and the other mods further detail why this ban took place, because it appears that people here just aren’t getting the severity of this.

Firstly - great post.
Secondly - to back up your argument - Andrew should have considered 'if you can't do the time, don't do the crime'. 
Thirdly - see the bit in yellow above.  I responded to the suggestions that he  had his own page by saying that we would need someone to make sure he was telling the truth.  I meant it to sound ridiculous because it seems we can't rely on his historical accuracy.  I hope no one took this seriously.  I couldn't imagine anyone would.
Fourthly - I understood from what Charles LePage said that the PM's were private but that there are 2 people privy to them and that the other person had reported them to the administrator - I may be wrong but that seemed logical.

[Ang Jones]

A few things I want to clarify before this thread gets locked.

Firstly, congrats to the people blaming the mods for the state of the board right now. Perhaps this place would be better if we took Andrew’s advice on a board overhaul. You know, the overhaul where he said that all perma-banned members should be let back onto the board? Because I really want to how No Pier Pressure is a “steaming pile of dogshit” again. I really want to see other posters be compared to suicide bombers. I really want to see Debbie KL get harassed in every thread she posts on again. I really want the image of Joe Thomas throwing himself from a high-rise implanted in my mind again. Sarcasm aside, you people are utterly ridiculous. Perhaps it’s the fact that the C50 ended in shambles (to a lot of fans), perhaps it’s the fact that No Pier Pressure was such a divisive album, perhaps it was the slew of Mike Love comments about Brian that got people enraged in the first place over the last few years. Bans had to occur because people were losing their temper. But no, let’s blame it on the mods instead. Unreal…but not surprising in the least.

Secondly. Andrew was banned for writing some very terrible stuff in PMs…whether bullying or potentially libelous information. I know this because (a) I was sent one (b) I’ve heard from two very respected posters about things they were sent regarding Melinda. Heck, RangeRover came out in this very thread and said she got this stuff along these lines. DrBeachBoy you think some posts on this board are libelous? I’d love to see what you think of these PMs then. Anyone who doesn’t believe these allegations (or doesn’t find them damaging enough to warrant a ban) who is also close to Andrew, I suggest you ask Andrew personally if he would be comfortable with these PMs coming out. There’s a reason these were kept “private” in the first place.

Thirdly. This talk about “civility” is repulsive to me in this thread. I suspected that Cincinnati Kid was basing his stance on certain subjects on bad information a couple weeks ago. I gave my two cents about it. Next thing I know Andrew G Doe is taunting me THREE times publicly on the board. He even revived my “goodbye” thread to mock the fact that I came back. And no, I’m not crying or whining about this, just that some of you seem to care so much about this “civility”, yet it’s okay for Andrew to treat people like sh*t even when he’s clearly in the wrong.

Fourth. Some of you are acting like this thread is so incredibly unfair to Andrew because he’s not here to defend himself. Here’s something that’s actually unfair: reading Melinda come under attack in a PM, where she can’t defend herself. This information WAS spread to people, and was Melinda able to defend herself? Was her family when they came under the same attacks? HELL NO! Another thing: some of you in this very thread bitch and whine that OSD and Smile Brian are still apart of this board even though they engage in trollish behavior. You spend a paragraph whining about that, yet nary a word about a NOTED and RESPECTED Beach Boys historian spreading trash about The Wilson family and their friends…no that’s okay, and we need to make a special AGD section, with a referee to make sure he’s telling the truth. You realize how utterly ridiculous that sounds?

Do whatever you want with the thread Billy. But I suggest you and the other mods further detail why this ban took place, because it appears that people here just aren’t getting the severity of this.

May I also compliment rab2591 on an extremely good and IMO fair post.

AGD is undeniably knowledgeable about the history of the Beach Boys and no doubt his expertise will be missed but just like anyone who seriously breaks the rules, there are consequences so it is hardly fair to suggest that the ban was unreasonable. The action taken seems to have been unavoidable - except by AGD, who didn't make enough of an effort to avoid it.

[Dove Nested Towers]

I would like to add 2 cents, which I hope is from a mature, relatively objective standpoint. I have seen many of AGD's comments and replies over the past few years here. I don't have any particular axe to grind against him by any means, and yes, his factual contribution to BB scholarship and the board content has been substantial, but I found his overall know-it-all, imperious tone, and belittling replies to innocent, albeit mistaken, posts here to be quite insufferable, although I was (and am) quite prepared to accept that he is a decent guy overall (as some British friends have told me.) Being smug  in and of itself certainly doesn't merit a lifetime ban, but there is clearly a side of him that goes hand in hand with his interest in and priceless work for the band, an obvious unmet emotional need that is at least partially fulfilled by being an authority figure (please don't attack me for being an amateur psychologist, I am just common-sensically extrapolating from what I have observed here). I'm sorry that he is not here and able to respond, but this affects all of us and we should feel OK about expressing our opinions about the issue as long as it's not gratuitously insulting to him.

I would never have thought that he would engage in abusing his power via PM to attack Melinda or others that he apparently bears grudges against, or even just aggressively perpetuate scurrilous information, if that's all it amounts to, but I can see how that kind of behavior could conceivably go hand in hand with his obvious desire to and obsession with always being the ultimate insider. Whether any of his sentiments and negativity was deserved or not, that is unacceptable behavior, as is harassing newcomers here in any way, and so, regardless of his valuable historical contributions here, IMO the ban is warranted.

[mtaber]

It seems that Andrew does indeed deserve the ban, based on what has been laid out by the mods and others.  I won't argue with that decision.

However, I do want to comment on the general snarkiness of some folks on message boards in general, not just this one.  Back in the "old days" of newspapers, if one wanted to submit a "letter to the editor" and have it printed, you needed to sign your actual name to the letter.  You couldn't just anonymously state your opinion, you needed to be accountable by putting your name to the letter.  However, the internet allows people to post whatever crap they want, without (at least most) people knowing who you actually are.  A lot of this went on in the Rocky thread, for example, and I was right there, posting crap, but at least my identity is out there. 

Maybe, before we post stuff that is borderline "bullying", we should imagine that the person to whom we are directing the post is in the same room with us. 

[filledeplage]

Just so I'm clear:  
Is this for AGD's Lifetime? or is it  Billy's? Smile Holland? guitarfool? Charles LePage? that other mod(whoever he is)? all of them combined?

A mind is a terrible thing to waste...  all the more so when it's the mind of the most consistently knowledgeable BBs historian on earth. 

Maybe instead of the lifetime ban, he could get his own section >> Ask the Historian<<  where he could answer questions/post information. He'd be locked out from posting in any other threads, and he wouldn't be able to use the PM function. 
  This way, he'd still be available as a source of knowledge, and other members could simply ask him questions when a problem arose in another thread(s), yet he wouldn't be able to bother those other posters drbeachboy mentions that are getting away with murder

bgas - I'm trying to look at both sides of the coin and I believe it is important to give "the devil his due." (Yes, Andrew, I am using quotation marks!) 

Charles was truly honorable in being balanced, while sharing the story of Andrew having his back, and that he would always appreciate the gesture.  Lord knows, I have gone the "ten rounds" with Andrew.  But, notwithstanding his sometimes cantankerous ways (which he relatively is still too young for) I truly respect his scholarship. 

But, as you mention, bgas, and I think wisely so, it is the PM function which has been been the most problematic.  And, I think it is important, still to make the "punishment fit the crime." You are also correct, in that "a mind is a terrible thing to waste." I try to look beyond the vitriol, directly to the facts and what he brings to this table.

It still boggles my mind to think that my "Beach Boys" (including any and all) have been faction-ized not unlike the political parties with which we align ourselves.  It would have been unthinkable to not think of them as one band, in the 60's, going along the same road, taking the off-ramp occasionally but getting back on the same road, as they did during C50.       

Having a forum to discuss this greatest of music is a privilege, not a right. I thank Charles as host and the mods who have to field all kinds of stuff, giving of their time and expertise. 

Perhaps, after some time passes, and the dust settles, Andrew could be permitted to return without the PM function.  Bgas - this, I think was the smartest suggestion I had read in the thread, because the PM was the largest problem, and I think it would have been a better "fit" for the crime.  Thanks, for looking at things in that way.   

[JK]

It's most encouraging to see this avenue being pursued, whether or not anything ever comes of it.   

[Debbie KL]

Brian and Melinda are public figures. Under U.S. law, it's basically impossible to libel (slander is spoken so it doesn't apply here) anyone who is a public figure. AGD likely said something out of bounds -- although goodness knows many have speculated about Melinda's motives in the past and an incredibly unflattering story about her appears in the Stebbins FAQ book -- but there shouldn't be a legal question here.

But this is all depressing and beside the point, I suppose.

Where did you get that info on libel?  This is what I found, "In United States law, public figure is a term applied in the context of defamation actions (libel and slander) as well as invasion of privacy. A public figure (such as a politician, celebrity, or business leader) cannot base a lawsuit on incorrect harmful statements unless there is proof that the writer or publisher acted with actual malice (knowledge of falsity or reckless disregard for the truth).[1] The burden of proof in defamation actions is higher in the case of a public figure."  

I agree wholeheartedly that all of this is very depressing.  It is obvious in the posts by Mr. LePage and the mods that this was a painful thing for them to address, that they considered Andrew a friend, and they did what they believed that they had to do.  I haven't seen any of the referenced pm's, but this wouldn't be a light-hearted decision for anyone.  I too, personally enjoyed chats with Andrew on FB about the English ancient sites and countryside.  I certainly wish no ill will on him, but I'm not going to second-guess a clearly difficult decision when I lack the full accounting of what happened.  

I feel fairly certain that I don't want a full accounting, since it was indicated that Melinda and her children were attacked and it's something that I know that I'd never want to read. This doesn't just apply to the Wilsons, either.  Some of you know that I have defended Harriet Johnston and her family here as well.  Legalities aside, it's just cruel and inappropriate.  These are real humans, after all.  With that said, I suspect there isn't one among us who hasn't regretted repeating gossip that we later learned was untrue.  I think the only thing to do at that point is to correct what was said and defend the person, as Emily suggested earlier. 

[pixletwin]

I want to clarify my position too.

Banning AGD is probably for the best. (I even think it's probably good for him too) But I would like to have seen him given a chance to publicly respond. Maybe he was and refused. I dunno.

But since he was using his position in order to tell lies and manipulate people's views, that is a pretty shitty thing to do, and ultimately he deserved to be cut off, banished, and excommunicated from the Church Of The Smiley-Smileers.

[The LEGENDARY OSD]

A few things I want to clarify before this thread gets locked.

Firstly, congrats to the people blaming the mods for the state of the board right now. Perhaps this place would be better if we took Andrew’s advice on a board overhaul. You know, the overhaul where he said that all perma-banned members should be let back onto the board? Because I really want to how No Pier Pressure is a “steaming pile of dogshit” again. I really want to see other posters be compared to suicide bombers. I really want to see Debbie KL get harassed in every thread she posts on again. I really want the image of Joe Thomas throwing himself from a high-rise implanted in my mind again. Sarcasm aside, you people are utterly ridiculous. Perhaps it’s the fact that the C50 ended in shambles (to a lot of fans), perhaps it’s the fact that No Pier Pressure was such a divisive album, perhaps it was the slew of Mike Love comments about Brian that got people enraged in the first place over the last few years. Bans had to occur because people were losing their temper. But no, let’s blame it on the mods instead. Unreal…but not surprising in the least.

Secondly. Andrew was banned for writing some very terrible stuff in PMs…whether bullying or potentially libelous information. I know this because (a) I was sent one (b) I’ve heard from two very respected posters about things they were sent regarding Melinda. Heck, RangeRover came out in this very thread and said she got this stuff along these lines. DrBeachBoy you think some posts on this board are libelous? I’d love to see what you think of these PMs then. Anyone who doesn’t believe these allegations (or doesn’t find them damaging enough to warrant a ban) who is also close to Andrew, I suggest you ask Andrew personally if he would be comfortable with these PMs coming out. There’s a reason these were kept “private” in the first place.

Thirdly. This talk about “civility” is repulsive to me in this thread. I suspected that Cincinnati Kid was basing his stance on certain subjects on bad information a couple weeks ago. I gave my two cents about it. Next thing I know Andrew G Doe is taunting me THREE times publicly on the board. He even revived my “goodbye” thread to mock the fact that I came back. And no, I’m not crying or whining about this, just that some of you seem to care so much about this “civility”, yet it’s okay for Andrew to treat people like sh*t even when he’s clearly in the wrong.

Fourth. Some of you are acting like this thread is so incredibly unfair to Andrew because he’s not here to defend himself. Here’s something that’s actually unfair: reading Melinda come under attack in a PM, where she can’t defend herself. This information WAS spread to people, and was Melinda able to defend herself? Was her family when they came under the same attacks? HELL NO! Another thing: some of you in this very thread bitch and whine that OSD and Smile Brian are still apart of this board even though they engage in trollish behavior. You spend a paragraph whining about that, yet nary a word about a NOTED and RESPECTED Beach Boys historian spreading trash about The Wilson family and their friends…no that’s okay, and we need to make a special AGD section, with a referee to make sure he’s telling the truth. You realize how utterly ridiculous that sounds?

Do whatever you want with the thread Billy. But I suggest you and the other mods further detail why this ban took place, because it appears that people here just aren’t getting the severity of this.

Five thumbs up for this masterpiece of logic from one(me) who was the recipient of one of his well crafted, classless, arrogant, pugnacious PMs.  

[filledeplage]

Brian and Melinda are public figures. Under U.S. law, it's basically impossible to libel (slander is spoken so it doesn't apply here) anyone who is a public figure. AGD likely said something out of bounds -- although goodness knows many have speculated about Melinda's motives in the past and an incredibly unflattering story about her appears in the Stebbins FAQ book -- but there shouldn't be a legal question here.

But this is all depressing and beside the point, I suppose.

Where did you get that info on libel?  This is what I found, "In United States law, public figure is a term applied in the context of defamation actions (libel and slander) as well as invasion of privacy. A public figure (such as a politician, celebrity, or business leader) cannot base a lawsuit on incorrect harmful statements unless there is proof that the writer or publisher acted with actual malice (knowledge of falsity or reckless disregard for the truth).[1] The burden of proof in defamation actions is higher in the case of a public figure."  

I agree wholeheartedly that all of this is very depressing.  It is obvious in the posts by Mr. LePage and the mods that this was a painful thing for them to address, that they considered Andrew a friend, and they did what they believed that they had to do.  I haven't seen any of the referenced pm's, but this wouldn't be a light-hearted decision for anyone.  I too, personally enjoyed chats with Andrew on FB about the English ancient sites and countryside.  I certainly wish no ill will on him, but I'm not going to second-guess a clearly difficult decision when I clearly lack the full accounting of what happened.

DebbieKL - Wirestone, I think, is looking the general difference between "media and non-media" or "private and public" defendants or plaintiffs.  What you found looks correct, but it can be taken a step further.  The court would evaluate and determine the status. Wirestone is correct that it is a high bar to reach and sometimes the goalpost gets moved by the court.  And, that they (Brian and Melinda) are public figures.  

Sometimes for "purposes of a particular controversy" a person (private citizen and non-celebrity) can be considered a "public figure," when otherwise, they might not be.  So, for an example could be an "activist" who has been a "private figure," could become a "public figure" for the purposes of the controversy.  It is correct that it is connected to privacy/intrusion of seclusion.    

Because it was a PM, I don't know what was written.  Yes, they are all real humans, I agree.    

[rab2591]

A few things I want to clarify from my previous post.

- I inadvertently made it sound like I got a libelous/nasty PM from Andrew G. Doe...which is not the case. What I got was a message that had false information in it. I don't know whether Doe's sources are the ones giving him bad intel or what. But regardless, I wanted to clarify that. Doe was nothing but cordial to me in PMs. But his intel in that instance (relating to Melinda and her story) was indeed wrong.

- Angua, apologies for misunderstanding you. With all the ridiculous bullshit that takes place here, your sarcasm sounded like something that could've been said seriously by a handful of other members. Sorry again!

[Robbie Mac]

I think the mods should be commended for making the tough call despite it being unpopular with some.

[Emily]

I think the mods should be commended for making the tough call despite it being unpopular with some.

Yes.

[drbeachboy]

I still say, since it was private and the person it was sent to was not threatened in any way, then it should have been taken care of privately. Mike Love and his wife have had some very nasty stuff written on this board and less severe action was taken. While I do not condone spreading false and incorrect information, it just seems that the punishment was harsher for a PM than an actual board infraction of the same type. That stuff was put out there for any and all to see.

[Robbie Mac]

I still say, since it was private and the person it was sent to was not threatened in any way, then it should have been taken care of privately. Mike Love and his wife have had some very nasty stuff written on this board and less severe action was taken. While I do not condone spreading false and incorrect information, it just seems that the punishment was harsher for a PM than an actual board infraction of the same type. That stuff was put out there for any and all to see.

OSD was villified for what he said and did get banned for awhile.  It is worth noting, OSD didn't develop a rep for sending threatening msgs to people with whom he disagreed.

Just sayin'.

[drbeachboy]

I still say, since it was private and the person it was sent to was not threatened in any way, then it should have been taken care of privately. Mike Love and his wife have had some very nasty stuff written on this board and less severe action was taken. While I do not condone spreading false and incorrect information, it just seems that the punishment was harsher for a PM than an actual board infraction of the same type. That stuff was put out there for any and all to see.

OSD was villified for what he said and did get banned for awhile.  It is worth noting, OSD didn't develop a rep for sending threatening msgs to people with whom he disagreed.

Just sayin'.

I don't know any of that. I only know what Chuck & Rab have posted and it is not what you are saying. The lifetime ban was for writing the same type of stuff that OSD wrote and he went full public with his statements. At least Andrew shared his views or information privately.

[RangeRoverA1]

2drbeachboy: I usually agree with you but not in this case. Secretly telling bad stuff about someone while being all nice in public is cowardly imo.