Lifetime ban on AGD

[drbeachboy]

I vote against it. And if I do get outvoted, I will never post the contents of the PMs on this board. Not the ones I received. Now, if someone else does and it's a consensus, then whatever, but I don't feel right about it one bit.

May I ask why? I very much respect any decision you make Billy, and trust that you're always trying to do the right thing. But it seems apparent that some people aren't getting the severity of this issue. I don't know if the mods haven't clearly explained themselves, or if it's the lack of hard evidence being put on the table. Frankly, I'd think the fact that both you and Chuck LePage were in agreement on this issue speaks volumes for the severity of what happened.

Because I was raised to believe that your word is your bond, and I made a promise, which even now I am going keep. I don't give an oatmeal pudding sh*t if it 'helps my position' or not, I just can't break my word and post anything publicly. I just can't.

I totally understand and respect that Billy.

My best hope is that people understand your integrity, and understand how tough of a call the ban was for you (given your friendship with Andrew throughout the years). I hope that would be enough to finally lay this issue to rest for everyone here.

See, that is part of the problem with some of us. We are friendly with AGD. We know how he operates publicly and with us personally and privately. What he has been banned for seems very unlikely for him to do that sort of thing. It's why we are having a tough time wrapping our heads around this whole thing.

[SurfRiderHawaii]

I vote against it. And if I do get outvoted, I will never post the contents of the PMs on this board. Not the ones I received. Now, if someone else does and it's a consensus, then whatever, but I don't feel right about it one bit.

May I ask why? I very much respect any decision you make Billy, and trust that you're always trying to do the right thing. But it seems apparent that some people aren't getting the severity of this issue. I don't know if the mods haven't clearly explained themselves, or if it's the lack of hard evidence being put on the table. Frankly, I'd think the fact that both you and Chuck LePage were in agreement on this issue speaks volumes for the severity of what happened.

I agree with Billy. We have the three Mods and the board owner all in agreement.  No matter what was done, it seems for Lee, DrBB, and others that Doe can do no wrong. Their bias trumps rational judgement between right and wrong. So for some, posting PMs will just bring comments like, "that's not so bad" or, "I've gotten worse". As well as publicizing this slander against the Wilson family.

Then there are those who say Doe isn't here to defend himself.  This is a Moderated message board. Billy, for one, is as fair and honest guy I know. He was friends with Doe for a long time. To think he did this without careful deliberation is just wrong!

[SurfRiderHawaii]

I vote against it. And if I do get outvoted, I will never post the contents of the PMs on this board. Not the ones I received. Now, if someone else does and it's a consensus, then whatever, but I don't feel right about it one bit.

May I ask why? I very much respect any decision you make Billy, and trust that you're always trying to do the right thing. But it seems apparent that some people aren't getting the severity of this issue. I don't know if the mods haven't clearly explained themselves, or if it's the lack of hard evidence being put on the table. Frankly, I'd think the fact that both you and Chuck LePage were in agreement on this issue speaks volumes for the severity of what happened.

Because I was raised to believe that your word is your bond, and I made a promise, which even now I am going keep. I don't give an oatmeal pudding sh*t if it 'helps my position' or not, I just can't break my word and post anything publicly. I just can't.

I totally understand and respect that Billy.

My best hope is that people understand your integrity, and understand how tough of a call the ban was for you (given your friendship with Andrew throughout the years). I hope that would be enough to finally lay this issue to rest for everyone here.

See, that is part of the problem with some of us. We are friendly with AGD. We know how operates publicly and with us personally and privately. What he has been banned for seems very unlikely for him to do that sort of thing. It's why we are having a tough time wrapping our heads around this whole thing.

I told you what he did to me and you ignore it. You are ignoring all the examples posted.

[You Kane, You Commanded, You Conquered]

See, that is part of the problem with some of us. We are friendly with AGD. We know how operates publicly and with us personally and privately. What he has been banned for seems very unlikely for him to do that sort of thing. It's why we are having a tough time wrapping our heads around this whole thing.

Well if the explanation for his actions was made clear, who's to say you wouldn't still doubt that he did what he did?

[rab2591]

I vote against it. And if I do get outvoted, I will never post the contents of the PMs on this board. Not the ones I received. Now, if someone else does and it's a consensus, then whatever, but I don't feel right about it one bit.

May I ask why? I very much respect any decision you make Billy, and trust that you're always trying to do the right thing. But it seems apparent that some people aren't getting the severity of this issue. I don't know if the mods haven't clearly explained themselves, or if it's the lack of hard evidence being put on the table. Frankly, I'd think the fact that both you and Chuck LePage were in agreement on this issue speaks volumes for the severity of what happened.

Because I was raised to believe that your word is your bond, and I made a promise, which even now I am going keep. I don't give an oatmeal pudding sh*t if it 'helps my position' or not, I just can't break my word and post anything publicly. I just can't.

I totally understand and respect that Billy.

My best hope is that people understand your integrity, and understand how tough of a call the ban was for you (given your friendship with Andrew throughout the years). I hope that would be enough to finally lay this issue to rest for everyone here.

See, that is part of the problem with some of us. We are friendly with AGD. We know how operates publicly and with us personally and privately. What he has been banned for seems very unlikely for him to do that sort of thing. It's why we are having a tough time wrapping our heads around this whole thing.

And Billy was one of the people who was good friends with Andrew for years and years. Yet the evidence that Billy found was enough to ban Andrew. That should tell you a lot.

[alf wiedersehen]

Can we create a section on the board where we can make threads and talk about AGD

[bgas]

.

[SurfRiderHawaii]

Right /wrong, it doesn't matter. You'll not be convincing some that the correct action has been taken.

Close the thread forever

Agree

[Emily]

Hi Mods,
Would you object to someone who's received one of said PMs posting the information contained therein?

[Lee Marshall]

I think THAT is against board rules Emily.  It is, if I'm not mistaken, a ban-worthy offense.

I don't like seeing the mods take abuse for taking care of something that CLEARLY had to be dealt with.  Wrong is wrong.  They aren't.  I will continue to maintain that Andrew is off his game.  Until THAT was dealt with...something HAD to be done.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Hi Mods,
Would you object to someone who's received one of said PMs posting the information contained therein?

We have been talking about it. I'm on the fence myself, leaning towards absolutely no ,  and wouldn't post mine, but if we decided it was ok I'd support it. I'd hold off on that though.

[Lonely Summer]

I have debated whether to post in this thread or not...

For those of you that are newer members, an introduction may first be in order...  I am the former editor and publisher of Endless Summer Quarterly, and I've been a Beach Boys fan and collector for around 45 years. I would put my Beach Boys collection in the top 10 in the U.S., only behind some of the uber-collectors like Bgas, Jim, Panayiotis, and a couple more.  I handed over the editorial reigns of ESQ to David Beard around 15 years ago, when my professional and family priorities caused me not to have sufficient time to dedicate to the magazine, however in full disclosure I still maintain a financial interest in ESQ as a silent partner.  Although I've been a member of this board from the very start, I've kept a rather quiet persona around here, preferring to post mainly in the threads that deal objectively with the band's history and music.

I consider AGD a colleague in the quest to uncover as much factual information about the Beach Boys as possible.  I've learned more from him than just about anyone else on this board (perhaps c-man excepted).  I'll admit that I've been peeved at him occasionally for one of his smarmy public admonitions when I've gotten my facts incorrect, however I've gotten just as many PM's offering me the opportunity to correct myself before he posted anything.  I've just looked through my dozens of PM's from him, and I don't have a single one that could be considered "gossipy" or defamatory toward any individual on or outside this message board.  I don't dispute the reports by others that that he did; I am only speaking from my personal experience.  Andrew knew that I had no interest in that type of discussion.

I've always tried to maintain a neutral stance toward the Beach Boys.  I am a Brian fan first, but I don't hate the touring band.  I think they serve a purpose in continuing to deliver the Beach Boys' music to the masses.  But I've watched as this board has appeared to degenerate into a battle of the BW versus BB camps, with, in my opinion as a third-party observer, negative posts directed at Mike going seemingly unpunished and those threads allowed to flourish, while threads that are even slightly critical of Brian are steered in a direction that will cause them to go away.

AGD's permanent ban from this board is a MAJOR loss that further takes this board away from being a source of historical information, to being a forum for personal sparring and negativity.  This will be my last post on this board, as I try to find another place where the emphasis is on scholarly discussion of the band's music.  And if that place doesn't exist, I may have to create it...

Lee Dempsey

Sad to see you go, but I understand.  Sad that these days, one has to be a fan of Brian OR a fan of Mike...but not both.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I have debated whether to post in this thread or not...

For those of you that are newer members, an introduction may first be in order...  I am the former editor and publisher of Endless Summer Quarterly, and I've been a Beach Boys fan and collector for around 45 years. I would put my Beach Boys collection in the top 10 in the U.S., only behind some of the uber-collectors like Bgas, Jim, Panayiotis, and a couple more.  I handed over the editorial reigns of ESQ to David Beard around 15 years ago, when my professional and family priorities caused me not to have sufficient time to dedicate to the magazine, however in full disclosure I still maintain a financial interest in ESQ as a silent partner.  Although I've been a member of this board from the very start, I've kept a rather quiet persona around here, preferring to post mainly in the threads that deal objectively with the band's history and music.

I consider AGD a colleague in the quest to uncover as much factual information about the Beach Boys as possible.  I've learned more from him than just about anyone else on this board (perhaps c-man excepted).  I'll admit that I've been peeved at him occasionally for one of his smarmy public admonitions when I've gotten my facts incorrect, however I've gotten just as many PM's offering me the opportunity to correct myself before he posted anything.  I've just looked through my dozens of PM's from him, and I don't have a single one that could be considered "gossipy" or defamatory toward any individual on or outside this message board.  I don't dispute the reports by others that that he did; I am only speaking from my personal experience.  Andrew knew that I had no interest in that type of discussion.

I've always tried to maintain a neutral stance toward the Beach Boys.  I am a Brian fan first, but I don't hate the touring band.  I think they serve a purpose in continuing to deliver the Beach Boys' music to the masses.  But I've watched as this board has appeared to degenerate into a battle of the BW versus BB camps, with, in my opinion as a third-party observer, negative posts directed at Mike going seemingly unpunished and those threads allowed to flourish, while threads that are even slightly critical of Brian are steered in a direction that will cause them to go away.

AGD's permanent ban from this board is a MAJOR loss that further takes this board away from being a source of historical information, to being a forum for personal sparring and negativity.  This will be my last post on this board, as I try to find another place where the emphasis is on scholarly discussion of the band's music.  And if that place doesn't exist, I may have to create it...

Lee Dempsey

Sad to see you go, but I understand.  Sad that these days, one has to be a fan of Brian OR a fan of Mike...but not both.

I know exactly what you mean. I myself happen to be a fan of both.

[joshferrell]

My question is why hasn't Melinda or Brian said anything on here about it or made a statement here after all it is they that he was Defaming, i think if they were to post something saying that they agree that AGD should have been banned then I think the debate would end. I (and most fans on here) would agree with what they say about the situation because they are the ones being spoken negatively by AGD,I'm assuming they know about this situation. IMO I think they should tell us their thoughts about it and then the thread can be locked and they should have the last word on it.

[You Kane, You Commanded, You Conquered]

[Sad to see you go, but I understand.  Sad that these days, one has to be a fan of Brian OR a fan of Mike...but not both.

I know exactly what you mean. I myself happen to be a fan of both.

At least everyone loves Al 

[joshferrell]

[Sad to see you go, but I understand.  Sad that these days, one has to be a fan of Brian OR a fan of Mike...but not both.

I know exactly what you mean. I myself happen to be a fan of both.

At least everyone loves Al 

they should make that into a TV show. "Everyone Loves Al" lol

[bb4ever]

Just an observation:  Did anyone notice Mr. Doe's tag line?  

The four sweetest words in my vocabulary: "This poster is ignored".

Is this a self-fulfilling prophecy?

[Alan Smith]

Right /wrong, it doesn't matter. You'll not be convincing some that the correct action has been taken.

Close the thread forever

Agree

+1

[You Kane, You Commanded, You Conquered]

Just an observation:  Did anyone notice Mr. Doe's tag line?  

The four sweetest words in my vocabulary: "This poster is ignored".

Is this a self-fulfilling prophecy?

  It was meant to be!

[joshferrell]

Just an observation:  Did anyone notice Mr. Doe's tag line?  

The four sweetest words in my vocabulary: "This poster is ignored".

Is this a self-fulfilling prophecy?

He's the Nostradamus of the Beach Boys world..

[guitarfool2002]

Let me tell you something, I can think any way I like. It is how I see you. I never said anyone else does and I also stated that I hope I am wrong in my assessment. We talked (PM'd) about this in the past about how you come off when I read your posts. This should come as no surprise. I just haven't seen any change. The dictator comment is an overall assessment, not just this one thing. At first I just thought you were feeling your way around being a Mod, and maybe you still are. I would have taken this to email and did this privately, but you decided to respond back to me in here.

No, you should not post something about me or anyone based on lies or misinformation because it's your right to think that way. In this case, a fellow mod just explained it yet again, which means whatever you're thinking and then posting is simply not the way things are, nor were they ever that way. It's simply not the truth. There are no dictators, there are no rogue moderators who make decisions and do things on their own. That is the truth.

Hey, then ban me.

The truth is the truth whether you want to accept it or not. After having it explained multiple times by other moderators, a reply like this is not only uncalled for but totally out of line. It's too bad you can't accept the truth and choose instead to believe whatever lies you want to believe.

The other Moderators was just Billy, and I thank him for doing that. I guess what this all comes down to is this: A lot of us see what goes on in this place. Rarely is it addressed in the threads, let alone with bannings, especially of the lifetime variety. Yet, Mikey & AGD are given lifetime bans for stuff done that is not even public to the board. It's tough to accept that after seeing what goes on here publicly. Looking at this from the outside, it seems a little weird. Some very good people are beginning to leave this place over what happened here these past few days. That tells me something. So what's done is done, and I have said my peace. I'll either accept what has gone down and stay or I will not and leave. Again, I thank Billy for his explanations and for sharing as much info as he could.

What you're not seeing is that when a derogatory comment or even a slanderous one is sent in a message, there is the issue of the person or persons being slandered having their own name dragged into something they have no reason to be dragged into publicly. If there is a reported message where a board member's personal life is brought up and derogatory or even libelous comments are made, and that person has no idea it even happened, would it be fair to them or their reputations to have it broadcast publicly? Absolutely not.

What makes this even more disgusting is that many of these comments and rumors and all the gossip was done under the protection of this board's private message system and rules. It meant someone could if they chose to effectively short-circuit the board rules about personal attacks or worse, and use the PM system to hide the activities, never to be seen by anyone. That is what happened in this case and I'm sure others which are still unknown.

There are limits. Personal lives, children, marriage, even what people do in the privacy of their own homes should not be fodder for gossip being sent by "insiders" or anyone else. If some of that gossip turned out to be false and slanderous, and in this case both would apply in several cases, not to mention in violation of the board rules had they been posted publicly, it makes the attempts to hide the activity even more devious in nature.

There are already reports still coming in about similar messages received by board members. There are messages which have been received and reported which would be unfair to the person whose name was included in the lies or gossip if they were to come out. There are some cases which go beyond any standards of respect or decency for other people, board members and public figures alike. And there are others which were reported by the recipients exactly as has been described in the course of this thread, where members were literally chased off of the board because of messages they received.

Any messages that a member feels should be reported because they cross a line, please report them. There is no way at this point to know just how widespread all of this was, and it is insulting to have the notion that it even happened challenged by those who simply don't have the facts, or that the integrity of the moderators is being questioned over this after the process that led to the action was described and detailed numerous times.

Does anyone think there is a justification for any board member to spread gossip and rumors about other board members' private lives, make comments about family members who have no involvement in any of this, and also include public figures like the Wilsons or even things concerning band members in those rumors and comments in the same ways? I hope not.

[You Kane, You Commanded, You Conquered]

Let me tell you something, I can think any way I like. It is how I see you. I never said anyone else does and I also stated that I hope I am wrong in my assessment. We talked (PM'd) about this in the past about how you come off when I read your posts. This should come as no surprise. I just haven't seen any change. The dictator comment is an overall assessment, not just this one thing. At first I just thought you were feeling your way around being a Mod, and maybe you still are. I would have taken this to email and did this privately, but you decided to respond back to me in here.

No, you should not post something about me or anyone based on lies or misinformation because it's your right to think that way. In this case, a fellow mod just explained it yet again, which means whatever you're thinking and then posting is simply not the way things are, nor were they ever that way. It's simply not the truth. There are no dictators, there are no rogue moderators who make decisions and do things on their own. That is the truth.

Hey, then ban me.

The truth is the truth whether you want to accept it or not. After having it explained multiple times by other moderators, a reply like this is not only uncalled for but totally out of line. It's too bad you can't accept the truth and choose instead to believe whatever lies you want to believe.

The other Moderators was just Billy, and I thank him for doing that. I guess what this all comes down to is this: A lot of us see what goes on in this place. Rarely is it addressed in the threads, let alone with bannings, especially of the lifetime variety. Yet, Mikey & AGD are given lifetime bans for stuff done that is not even public to the board. It's tough to accept that after seeing what goes on here publicly. Looking at this from the outside, it seems a little weird. Some very good people are beginning to leave this place over what happened here these past few days. That tells me something. So what's done is done, and I have said my peace. I'll either accept what has gone down and stay or I will not and leave. Again, I thank Billy for his explanations and for sharing as much info as he could.

What you're not seeing is that when a derogatory comment or even a slanderous one is sent in a message, there is the issue of the person or persons being slandered having their own name dragged into something they have no reason to be dragged into publicly. If there is a reported message where a board member's personal life is brought up and derogatory or even libelous comments are made, and that person has no idea it even happened, would it be fair to them or their reputations to have it broadcast publicly? Absolutely not.

What makes this even more disgusting is that many of these comments and rumors and all the gossip was done under the protection of this board's private message system and rules. It meant someone could if they chose to effectively short-circuit the board rules about personal attacks or worse, and use the PM system to hide the activities, never to be seen by anyone. That is what happened in this case and I'm sure others which are still unknown.

There are limits. Personal lives, children, marriage, even what people do in the privacy of their own homes should not be fodder for gossip being sent by "insiders" or anyone else. If some of that gossip turned out to be false and slanderous, and in this case both would apply in several cases, not to mention in violation of the board rules had they been posted publicly, it makes the attempts to hide the activity even more devious in nature.

There are already reports still coming in about similar messages received by board members. There are messages which have been received and reported which would be unfair to the person whose name was included in the lies or gossip if they were to come out. There are some cases which go beyond any standards of respect or decency for other people, board members and public figures alike. And there are others which were reported by the recipients exactly as has been described in the course of this thread, where members were literally chased off of the board because of messages they received.

Any messages that a member feels should be reported because they cross a line, please report them. There is no way at this point to know just how widespread all of this was, and it is insulting to have the notion that it even happened challenged by those who simply don't have the facts, or that the integrity of the moderators is being questioned over this after the process that led to the action was described and detailed numerous times.

Does anyone think there is a justification for any board member to spread gossip and rumors about other board members' private lives, make comments about family members who have no involvement in any of this, and also include public figures like the Wilsons or even things concerning band members in those rumors and comments in the same ways? I hope not.

It seems AGD managed to form a cult of personality of sorts that some are having trouble breaking from.

[bgas]

.

[SurfRiderHawaii]

Bgas, I don't know the guy but he did slander me in unsolicited PMs to members. And I don't think my situation, two yesrs gone, had anything to do with the present situation.

Guitarfool is a Mod and doing his job. Why, because some just don't get it.. I imagine they are keeping the thread open so people can vent and have their say.

As with any thread, if you find it upsetting, don't read it. Insulting a Mod, just doing his best, doesn't help matters.

I agree it should be locked but I am not a Mod and there are no doubt factors I am not privy to.

[mtaber]

This is silly.  The thread is just spinning in circles.  Arguing back and forth, to what end?  Close the thread.

Billy, I don't know you, but I do believe you and the other mods did the right thing.  A sad day indeed.