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Author Topic: The December 1964 event.  (Read 40478 times)
Ian
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« Reply #100 on: April 22, 2016, 05:17:09 AM »

Right...The BBs played many shows in Texas.  First Houston show was apparently in 1963 with David Marks.  They played there again in May and December 1964.  Visited almost every year after that (though not in 1970 or 1972).  April 68 tour was with Buffalo Springfield.  That was followed by May 1968 tour with Maharishi-canceled after only a few dates.
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Paul J B
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« Reply #101 on: April 22, 2016, 06:58:39 AM »

I don't know if this would be considered "derailing," but since we're talking about the "event"....

Don't recall if I mentioned this before, but...part of me wonders if maybe Brian *faked* his breakdown. Why do I wonder? Well...

We know Brian didn't like touring. His place was the studio. And it was eye-opening to read The Lost Beach Boy and learn that Brian really hardly toured in 1963. Why? because he had to stay behind and compose and produce. And he was a busy guy in the studio in '63, producing not only stuff for the Beach Boys but side projects as well, including the Honeys, Bob & Sheri, etc. Meanwhile the touring band consists of Dennis, Mike, Carl, David, and Al.

So Dave quits. Brian freaks. Why? Because that means he'll be called upon to go back on the road, which he didn't like. He tells Murry and the rest of the band that he needs to stay back and write and produce. They ignore Brian's concerns and he ends up joining them.

Is it not unthinkable that for a long time he tried to convince the rest of the group that he needs to be off the road, to no avail, so he fakes a nervous breakdown to scare the rest of the guys into finally agreeing to let him stay home?

Mind you this hypothesis kind of goes against my strong belief that, as proven in 1972 during the Holland fiasco, Brian does NOT do anything he truly does not want to do. (But then again, this is 1964 I'm talking here. 1972 Brian and 1964 Brian = in many ways completely different Brians.)

But still...I gotta wonder. (Remember, I said *********wonder********. I'm not saying he ***did*** fake it; just entertaining the possibility.)

My brain cells may not be what they used to be, but didn't Lorren Daro state that Brian did exactly that?  I tried to read through some of that Daro thread, but I couldn't find the post where he said that.  It may have been removed, or it may be in that thread somewhere, or I may be mis-remembering altogether.  FWIW.  Which may not be much.   Smiley

Right...and we all know Darro was full of it to the eyebrows. Furthermore, even if Brian told someone he faked it, all that would mean was that Brian was BS-ing himself.

Brian didn't fake any breakdown on an airplane, and he has suffered from mental problems nearly his whole life. Trying to dispute that is just ignorant.
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Ian
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« Reply #102 on: April 22, 2016, 07:12:01 AM »

It will probably be addressed in Brian's book. But I doubt there will be any major revelations
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« Reply #103 on: April 22, 2016, 10:32:41 AM »

Now that I think about it I don't even think Strawberry Alarm Clock were around that early. So this was before they started touring with the Maharishi?

Yes, that was the tour right before the Maharishi tour.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2016, 10:33:47 AM by Emdeeh » Logged
Don Malcolm
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« Reply #104 on: April 22, 2016, 04:28:26 PM »

I don't know if this would be considered "derailing," but since we're talking about the "event"....

Don't recall if I mentioned this before, but...part of me wonders if maybe Brian *faked* his breakdown. Why do I wonder? Well...

We know Brian didn't like touring. His place was the studio. And it was eye-opening to read The Lost Beach Boy and learn that Brian really hardly toured in 1963. Why? because he had to stay behind and compose and produce. And he was a busy guy in the studio in '63, producing not only stuff for the Beach Boys but side projects as well, including the Honeys, Bob & Sheri, etc. Meanwhile the touring band consists of Dennis, Mike, Carl, David, and Al.

So Dave quits. Brian freaks. Why? Because that means he'll be called upon to go back on the road, which he didn't like. He tells Murry and the rest of the band that he needs to stay back and write and produce. They ignore Brian's concerns and he ends up joining them.

Is it not unthinkable that for a long time he tried to convince the rest of the group that he needs to be off the road, to no avail, so he fakes a nervous breakdown to scare the rest of the guys into finally agreeing to let him stay home?

Mind you this hypothesis kind of goes against my strong belief that, as proven in 1972 during the Holland fiasco, Brian does NOT do anything he truly does not want to do. (But then again, this is 1964 I'm talking here. 1972 Brian and 1964 Brian = in many ways completely different Brians.)

But still...I gotta wonder. (Remember, I said *********wonder********. I'm not saying he ***did*** fake it; just entertaining the possibility.)

My brain cells may not be what they used to be, but didn't Lorren Daro state that Brian did exactly that?  I tried to read through some of that Daro thread, but I couldn't find the post where he said that.  It may have been removed, or it may be in that thread somewhere, or I may be mis-remembering altogether.  FWIW.  Which may not be much.   Smiley

Right...and we all know Darro was full of it to the eyebrows. Furthermore, even if Brian told someone he faked it, all that would mean was that Brian was BS-ing himself.

Brian didn't fake any breakdown on an airplane, and he has suffered from mental problems nearly his whole life. Trying to dispute that is just ignorant.

Daro did claim that Brian faked the breakdown to get off the road. Here is what he said:

...but I can make a good guess that Brian was okay for at least three years after taking LSD (only once with me) and staying on marijuana (not from me). The problems started with, a) Terry Sachen giving every drug he could find to Brian. b) At first, pretending to be mentally ill to keep off the road, and then, with food, more drugs, isolation in his bedroom, Marilyn unable to understand him, and agoraphobia. c) And, finally the introduction of Eugene Landy into his life when his supposed mental illness began. A, B, C. Three strikes and you’re out.

While Daro is oversimplifying and telescoping history (as he himself admitted, he was not there after mid-'66 and was working with second or third-hand information), his assertion about what could easily be a case of someone "acting out" in a way that will (temporarily, at least) relieve an escalating level of stress is striking and should not be simply dismissed out of hand. Certainly many individuals, faced with seemingly impossible emotional demands, would utilize such a technique to distance oneself from impending psychological damage. I would suspect that many, if not most of us, have done something like that at some point in our lives.

I don't think the poster was suggesting that Brian did not have emotional issues that had been put into place during childhood that a) may have pushed him to excel and b) created as many wrenching problems as glorious moments as success continued and the stakes just seemed to get higher--all while trying to balance adult life, the ever-shifting ground of pop stardom, freedom from parental intrusion, and the urge for artistic growth.

I wish it weren't so clearly invasive to ask Brian about it. But perhaps he will address it in the book.
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Paul J B
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« Reply #105 on: April 25, 2016, 09:00:32 AM »

Sorry, but there would have been no reason to fake breaking down on a flight in a convoluted attempt to get out of touring. The entire premise reeks of conspiracy nonsense. Brian simply would have DEMANDED that he was going to stay home without PRETENDING to be on overload and ready to crack. He was under immense pressure and it got to him, and on the flight band mates witnessed it.

That paragraph from Darro also uses the term SUPPOSED mental illness. I find that totally idiotic as well. Having a breakdown in flight or mental problems does not mean one is some kind of flat out mental case. Most mental illness is subtle....the kind of thing that would escape most people that are not around the affected person day in and day out. And even then, it can come off as just a kind of mild personality disorder rather than something more serious.

Lastly, not that the film is 100% accurate, but since Brian LOSING IT is kind of a huge main theme in the narrative, and Brian and Melinda and Darian are on record saying they got it right it would be more than a little far fetched to one day learn that we were all duped. Speaking of films, even the crappy TV movie that had Mike's blessing had the airplane scene did it not? I don't think L&M would have included a scene that in reality was just a ploy.
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Don Malcolm
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« Reply #106 on: April 25, 2016, 10:58:41 AM »

Your ability to grasp nuance seems to be a bit lacking there, Paul. Clearly if Brian felt he had to "fake" (or exaggerate) his condition in order to get relief, it signals that there was much more going on that he did not feel in control of at that time. If Brian had truly been incapacitated by the pressure and had a true "nervous breakdown," he would have been much less able to embark on a period of his greatest artistic growth--which is precisely what occurred when he was able to get off the road.

What makes the most sense was that Brian was "treating the symptoms" of his problems rather than dealing with the root causes, which delayed the day of reckoning, giving him time to further develop the parallel worlds of creativity that had already surfaced as early as late 1963, where the next collision of those worlds would create an even more elevated level of consternation and confrontation about the direction he was taking.

Your point about people who break down not being an out-and-out mental case actually supports the notion that someone would engineer such an episode.

The film doesn't have to take a stand on whether Brian was "faking it" or not. Whatever was behind the incident, it clearly happened, and it changed the dynamics of the group, which is what Brian was after--had he not done that, he might well have become a "mental case" in short order.

Brian didn't LOSE IT in the SMILE period, either, he lost his confidence and the will to keep finding new ways to be the dominant figure in the group. He decided to help make a transition to a more democratic arrangement, where the other members of the band could have more of a role in writing and producing. Having set that in motion, it seems that after the FRIENDS project he suffered a further series of emotional setbacks that led to the famous "reclusive" period. The film focuses more on the auditory hallucination incidents and shows how that dovetailed into SMILE creativity going awry; what it doesn't follow up on is how Brian regrouped to make WILD HONEY and FRIENDS over the next year, something that seems implausible if we want to contend that SMILE produced a true "psychotic break."
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Emily
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« Reply #107 on: April 25, 2016, 11:52:53 AM »

If Brian had truly been incapacitated by the pressure and had a true "nervous breakdown," he would have been much less able to embark on a period of his greatest artistic growth--which is precisely what occurred when he was able to get off the road.

...

Your point about people who break down not being an out-and-out mental case actually supports the notion that someone would engineer such an episode.

While I don't disagree with much of your post, it is certainly the case that people have authentic panic attacks that don't hinder their ability to proceed afterward with their work. That someone did good work after a panic attack is no evidence that the panic attack was 'faked' or 'engineered' or whatever.
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Paul J B
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« Reply #108 on: April 25, 2016, 12:35:32 PM »

If Brian had truly been incapacitated by the pressure and had a true "nervous breakdown," he would have been much less able to embark on a period of his greatest artistic growth--which is precisely what occurred when he was able to get off the road.

...

Your point about people who break down not being an out-and-out mental case actually supports the notion that someone would engineer such an episode.

While I don't disagree with much of your post, it is certainly the case that people have authentic panic attacks that don't hinder their ability to proceed afterward with their work. That someone did good work after a panic attack is no evidence that the panic attack was 'faked' or 'engineered' or whatever.

When Brian openly states that he faked the airplane incident, I'll believe him. Until then I will stick with the status quo. There is way too much nutty speculation on this board and I just found the AGD ban thread today so I'm at a loss as to figure out the fact from fiction here anymore.
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« Reply #109 on: April 25, 2016, 12:46:04 PM »

If Brian had truly been incapacitated by the pressure and had a true "nervous breakdown," he would have been much less able to embark on a period of his greatest artistic growth--which is precisely what occurred when he was able to get off the road.

...

Your point about people who break down not being an out-and-out mental case actually supports the notion that someone would engineer such an episode.

While I don't disagree with much of your post, it is certainly the case that people have authentic panic attacks that don't hinder their ability to proceed afterward with their work. That someone did good work after a panic attack is no evidence that the panic attack was 'faked' or 'engineered' or whatever.

When Brian openly states that he faked the airplane incident, I'll believe him. Until then I will stick with the status quo. There is way too much nutty speculation on this board and I just found the AGD ban thread today so I'm at a loss as to figure out the fact from fiction here anymore.


Andrew is banned?
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« Reply #110 on: April 25, 2016, 01:12:03 PM »

If Brian had truly been incapacitated by the pressure and had a true "nervous breakdown," he would have been much less able to embark on a period of his greatest artistic growth--which is precisely what occurred when he was able to get off the road.

...

Your point about people who break down not being an out-and-out mental case actually supports the notion that someone would engineer such an episode.

While I don't disagree with much of your post, it is certainly the case that people have authentic panic attacks that don't hinder their ability to proceed afterward with their work. That someone did good work after a panic attack is no evidence that the panic attack was 'faked' or 'engineered' or whatever.

When Brian openly states that he faked the airplane incident, I'll believe him. Until then I will stick with the status quo. There is way too much nutty speculation on this board and I just found the AGD ban thread today so I'm at a loss as to figure out the fact from fiction here anymore.


I wonder if Mike thinks that Brian faked the airplane incident, which could be a reason why he claims to not recall it (as a way of not touching that minefield with a ten-foot pole). Come to think of it, I'm not sure I can recall one single incident of Mike actually speaking about Brian having mental/emotional problems.

As Mike seems to *always*, without question (as far as I know) publicly refer to Brian's struggles as *exclusively* drug-based, one might surmise that he either doesn't believe in the existence of mental illness being in part brought on as a result of people/circumstances/DNA (other than drugs), and/or thinks that Brian is putting on all of the time.

I obviously don't know if Mike actually believes these things, but his mindset about Brian is just something that crosses my mind from time to time.

I could also believe the possibility that Brian could have told friends like Daro, after the fact, that the airplane incident was something faked, even if it in actuality wasn't. Not saying that's what happened between Brian and Daro, but I wouldn't think this is an impossible scenario either.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2016, 01:21:27 PM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #111 on: April 25, 2016, 01:18:32 PM »

I don't know about you, but one does not fake panic attacks. Brian clearly faced the results of a stressful career/personal life on that plane.
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« Reply #112 on: April 25, 2016, 01:20:02 PM »

CD: It's kind of old-fashionedy, but there are many people who interpret a lot of mental illness as personal weakness that could be overcome by 'sucking it up'  and 'getting it together'.
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« Reply #113 on: April 25, 2016, 01:22:53 PM »

CD: It's kind of old-fashionedy, but there are many people who interpret a lot of mental illness as personal weakness that could be overcome by 'sucking it up'  and 'getting it together'.

Yeah, totally. I know some older people, hardened "macho" types who poo-poo the idea of therapy, and very much believe that line of thinking across the board. It just seems incredibly callous and misguided to me.
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« Reply #114 on: April 25, 2016, 01:31:38 PM »

Panic attacks are very much a real thing. If you don't believe that there is a serious disconnect between you and reality.
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« Reply #115 on: April 25, 2016, 01:43:52 PM »

If Brian had truly been incapacitated by the pressure and had a true "nervous breakdown," he would have been much less able to embark on a period of his greatest artistic growth--which is precisely what occurred when he was able to get off the road.

...

Your point about people who break down not being an out-and-out mental case actually supports the notion that someone would engineer such an episode.

While I don't disagree with much of your post, it is certainly the case that people have authentic panic attacks that don't hinder their ability to proceed afterward with their work. That someone did good work after a panic attack is no evidence that the panic attack was 'faked' or 'engineered' or whatever.

When Brian openly states that he faked the airplane incident, I'll believe him. Until then I will stick with the status quo. There is way too much nutty speculation on this board and I just found the AGD ban thread today so I'm at a loss as to figure out the fact from fiction here anymore.


Andrew is banned?


http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,23685.0.html
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« Reply #116 on: April 25, 2016, 01:57:44 PM »

If Brian had truly been incapacitated by the pressure and had a true "nervous breakdown," he would have been much less able to embark on a period of his greatest artistic growth--which is precisely what occurred when he was able to get off the road.

...

Your point about people who break down not being an out-and-out mental case actually supports the notion that someone would engineer such an episode.

While I don't disagree with much of your post, it is certainly the case that people have authentic panic attacks that don't hinder their ability to proceed afterward with their work. That someone did good work after a panic attack is no evidence that the panic attack was 'faked' or 'engineered' or whatever.

When Brian openly states that he faked the airplane incident, I'll believe him. Until then I will stick with the status quo. There is way too much nutty speculation on this board and I just found the AGD ban thread today so I'm at a loss as to figure out the fact from fiction here anymore.


Andrew is banned?


http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,23685.0.html

Yes, I am on this board every day and only found out yesterday!
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Don Malcolm
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« Reply #117 on: April 25, 2016, 01:58:49 PM »

Many scenarios are possible, which was my original point. There's also the ironic possibility that Brian had it in mind to stage such an incident, and once it started, it actually took over as an organic, bonafide panic attack. Sometimes we outsmart ourselves...

Of course everyone is free to draw their own conclusions. I consider it to be a grey area that may or may not be explained by the most straightforward explanation. It took many formative events for Brian to reach the state of being "psychedelicate" and in the high-pressure world in which he found himself, he's certainly capable of self-protective misdirection. I don't think he has a nasty bone in his body, which makes our dear friend Rocky's story of him slapping Mike around seem awfully dubious, but I do think that he'd try to be sneaky about getting his way if he thought it would avoid the type of confrontation that would go beyond a level of hostility that he felt he could handle emotionally. All of this stems, of course, from the various incarnations of child abuse practiced by good ol' Murry...

AGD banned? Did he get caught writing secret emails to Lorren Daro? (ducking) This board w/o Andrew is like a spaghetti western w/o an anti-hero...
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« Reply #118 on: April 25, 2016, 02:32:30 PM »

If Brian had truly been incapacitated by the pressure and had a true "nervous breakdown," he would have been much less able to embark on a period of his greatest artistic growth--which is precisely what occurred when he was able to get off the road.

...

Your point about people who break down not being an out-and-out mental case actually supports the notion that someone would engineer such an episode.

While I don't disagree with much of your post, it is certainly the case that people have authentic panic attacks that don't hinder their ability to proceed afterward with their work. That someone did good work after a panic attack is no evidence that the panic attack was 'faked' or 'engineered' or whatever.

That is correct. Otherwise, I'd never be able to hold a job.
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« Reply #119 on: April 25, 2016, 02:56:16 PM »

If Brian had truly been incapacitated by the pressure and had a true "nervous breakdown," he would have been much less able to embark on a period of his greatest artistic growth--which is precisely what occurred when he was able to get off the road.

...

Your point about people who break down not being an out-and-out mental case actually supports the notion that someone would engineer such an episode.

While I don't disagree with much of your post, it is certainly the case that people have authentic panic attacks that don't hinder their ability to proceed afterward with their work. That someone did good work after a panic attack is no evidence that the panic attack was 'faked' or 'engineered' or whatever.

When Brian openly states that he faked the airplane incident, I'll believe him. Until then I will stick with the status quo. There is way too much nutty speculation on this board and I just found the AGD ban thread today so I'm at a loss as to figure out the fact from fiction here anymore.


Andrew is banned?


http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,23685.0.html

Yes, I am on this board every day and only found out yesterday!


Sorry to take this thread on a tangent, but I too just learned about AGD’s ban (in this thread), and I have to say it’s quite sad.  Since that AGD ban thread is locked, I'll just say here that it almost feels like kicking Mike out of the band. The guy who is imperfect to say the least, but does unquestionably have value to add. I get the reasons, maybe it had to happen, and granted - I'm not privy to PMs that apparently went on which sound like they were inappropriate - but it’s a big bummer regardless to people like myself, who are BB information sponges.

Just before I knew about this ban, about a week and a half ago, I randomly saw a California AGD license plate on a car parked at a mall, and I snapped a photo – I was waiting for the right moment to post it on this board. I guess now’s as good a time as any.



« Last Edit: April 25, 2016, 03:29:03 PM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #120 on: April 25, 2016, 03:14:50 PM »

My personal hope is that after a sufficient cooling-off period, the mods and the owner of this board will consider a probationary reinstatement for AGD. Of course that is up to them, but that's my wish. On a scale of 1-10, Andrew's ability to suffer fools was hovering at about 0.4, but the key is to ignore 90% of the aggravating stuff that happens here.

As for "faking it" and doing good work after, this is indeed a murky point. But consider there was no interruption whatsoever in Brian's output after this incident. The problem is that shading the incident around words that kinda sorta cover the description of the episode ("nervous breakdown," "panic attack," "meltdown," "hysterical episode" et al) leaves us all a bit too much wiggle room to argue "definitively" through the type of "geometric logic" that got Humphrey Bogart's character into so much trouble in THE CAINE MUTINY.  Let's await further information/testimony and keep in mind that the obsessive search for "truth" sometimes has an unintended impact, which results in a great researcher being banned from a place where his contributions have been vast.
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« Reply #121 on: April 25, 2016, 04:08:16 PM »

My personal hope is that after a sufficient cooling-off period, the mods and the owner of this board will consider a probationary reinstatement for AGD. Of course that is up to them, but that's my wish. On a scale of 1-10, Andrew's ability to suffer fools was hovering at about 0.4, but the key is to ignore 90% of the aggravating stuff that happens here.

As for "faking it" and doing good work after, this is indeed a murky point. But consider there was no interruption whatsoever in Brian's output after this incident. The problem is that shading the incident around words that kinda sorta cover the description of the episode ("nervous breakdown," "panic attack," "meltdown," "hysterical episode" et al) leaves us all a bit too much wiggle room to argue "definitively" through the type of "geometric logic" that got Humphrey Bogart's character into so much trouble in THE CAINE MUTINY.  Let's await further information/testimony and keep in mind that the obsessive search for "truth" sometimes has an unintended impact, which results in a great researcher being banned from a place where his contributions have been vast.
But if you have the testimony of the guy himself, of his bandmates, of his mother and of his wife, what further testimony will cause you to stop questioning it? True, the terminology isn't clear because 'panic attack' wasn't a defined term at the time. But all descriptions perfectly match a panic attack. Someone says he had a panic attack (using different terms, because that one didn't exist at the time). His family agrees he had a panic attack (using different terms...); what reason is there to doubt he had a panic attack?
In terms of interruptions, most panic attacks do not debilitate the person who experiences them except during the panic attack.
I don't get what this is about.
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« Reply #122 on: April 25, 2016, 04:10:07 PM »

BW suffered alone in an era before mental health awareness.
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« Reply #123 on: April 25, 2016, 04:29:45 PM »

My personal hope is that after a sufficient cooling-off period, the mods and the owner of this board will consider a probationary reinstatement for AGD. Of course that is up to them, but that's my wish. On a scale of 1-10, Andrew's ability to suffer fools was hovering at about 0.4, but the key is to ignore 90% of the aggravating stuff that happens here.

As for "faking it" and doing good work after, this is indeed a murky point. But consider there was no interruption whatsoever in Brian's output after this incident. The problem is that shading the incident around words that kinda sorta cover the description of the episode ("nervous breakdown," "panic attack," "meltdown," "hysterical episode" et al) leaves us all a bit too much wiggle room to argue "definitively" through the type of "geometric logic" that got Humphrey Bogart's character into so much trouble in THE CAINE MUTINY.  Let's await further information/testimony and keep in mind that the obsessive search for "truth" sometimes has an unintended impact, which results in a great researcher being banned from a place where his contributions have been vast.

It could also be reasoned that Brian's output continued at the same pace because an immediate stressor was removed( the road) and another one soon would be.  (Murry). However the problems resurfaced because other stressors exacerbated the condition.  Treating the symptoms not the cause is a good explanation.
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« Reply #124 on: April 25, 2016, 04:44:54 PM »

BW suffered alone in an era before mental health awareness.

Truth.
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