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Author Topic: The December 1964 event.  (Read 40492 times)
Steve Mayo
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« Reply #50 on: April 16, 2016, 07:36:34 PM »

damn people!! how the f*** did this thread end up in the shitter??? jesusfhchrist this is getting old.................
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Debbie KL
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« Reply #51 on: April 16, 2016, 10:39:16 PM »

Nobody in this thread criticised a Wilson.  We know what you think about SJS and that's your prerogative but I don't think you should be criticising people for writing books.  I'm sure the guys who right the books have interviewed a lot of people who were there.  They don't all say the same thing. Therefore, readers try to draw their own conclusions.  If Brian and Mike want to write good autobiographies I hope they have good fact checkers in place!  How many times over the years have Beach Boys changed stories?  They are only human and sometimes may tell half truths and embellish other things here and there. Human nature.

Debbie, do you really believe guys like Ian, Jim or Jon don't love Brian?  He's the main reason we are here on this board now.  Not everyone is on Mike Love's payroll, just as I'm sure not everyone is on Brian's.

Shame this thread has now been derailed.

Derailing a thread?  I think that started with the ugly gossip garbage - as usual about the Wilsons.  I certainly didn't start that.  My point was that it was off-topic and utterly stupid.

Criticizing people for writing books?  I criticized a particularly pathetic writer that someone brought up here (not me) as a source for those books.  I think that's perfectly fair.  As for these authors' love for Brian, I wouldn't know, nor was I questioning it.  Interviews are all good.  Actually living it is another thing entirely.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2016, 10:40:09 PM by Debbie KL » Logged
Robbie Mac
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« Reply #52 on: April 16, 2016, 11:33:44 PM »

Nobody in this thread criticised a Wilson.  We know what you think about SJS and that's your prerogative but I don't think you should be criticising people for writing books.  I'm sure the guys who right the books have interviewed a lot of people who were there.  They don't all say the same thing. Therefore, readers try to draw their own conclusions.  If Brian and Mike want to write good autobiographies I hope they have good fact checkers in place!  How many times over the years have Beach Boys changed stories?  They are only human and sometimes may tell half truths and embellish other things here and there. Human nature.

Debbie, do you really believe guys like Ian, Jim or Jon don't love Brian?  He's the main reason we are here on this board now.  Not everyone is on Mike Love's payroll, just as I'm sure not everyone is on Brian's.

Shame this thread has now been derailed.

Debbie wasn't the one taking a needless potshot at someone who probably regrets his past sins and someone else who is not alive to defend himself.
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Andrew G. Doe
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« Reply #53 on: April 16, 2016, 11:41:27 PM »

For better or worse, the 1975 NME tryptich was the single galvanising element of my BB fandom. I read it and wanted to know more, hear this music, and when I did, it was beyond wonderful. Over forty years on, I still love it as no other. Even Steinman doesn't come close. However, even at the time of the 1980 article, I could see his treatment of Debbie was disgusting, and when I later discovered he'd shamelessly appropriated parts of the Vosse Fusion article as his own in TLBM I was more than discomfited. Made me wonder how many other of his pieces were similarly... "borrowed".

When I wrote "And does it matter anyway ?" I was being facetious: of course it matters to me, and others. I happen to think that the music of The Beach Boys, individually and collectively, and the context thereof, is so important that it demands to be documented as accurately as possible. I've done my bit, others are carrying that torch much further than I ever could, but it's always been an uphill struggle, since the earliest days. Fans have given countless explanations as to why the band are held in such relatively low esteem (and yes, they've rarely helped themselves: it wasn't only James Watt who shot himself in the foot...), but to my mind the overriding cause of this lack of respect is simply this: the existence of The Beatles.

Researching The Beach Boys is a generally thankless task as not only the press of the time, such as it was, but also the principals, tend to be either contradictory or flat out misleading. Sometimes there's concrete proof, or it's patently obvious (viz, the summer 1962 tour: when you sit down and think about it, you swiftly realise that at the time the band couldn't have managed a fourteen date tour of southern Califoirnia, much less a 40-date tour of the Midwest), more often you're having to sift the data and evolve the best - or, frankly, least unlikely - scenario. This 1964 thing is a prime example: it's emerging that the likeliest answer is that the dates, but not the tour venues, are wrong. Thank you, Keith Badman. Thank you so much.  Grin

Derailed ? Not really, more shunted into a siding. When it starts slipping into the Brian-vs-Mike mire, then it's derailed.
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SurfRiderHawaii
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« Reply #54 on: April 17, 2016, 01:32:02 AM »

Nobody in this thread criticised a Wilson.  We know what you think about SJS and that's your prerogative but I don't think you should be criticising people for writing books.  I'm sure the guys who right the books have interviewed a lot of people who were there.  They don't all say the same thing. Therefore, readers try to draw their own conclusions.  If Brian and Mike want to write good autobiographies I hope they have good fact checkers in place!  How many times over the years have Beach Boys changed stories?  They are only human and sometimes may tell half truths and embellish other things here and there. Human nature.

Debbie, do you really believe guys like Ian, Jim or Jon don't love Brian?  He's the main reason we are here on this board now.  Not everyone is on Mike Love's payroll, just as I'm sure not everyone is on Brian's.

Shame this thread has now been derailed.

Derailing a thread?  I think that started with the ugly gossip garbage - as usual about the Wilsons.  I certainly didn't start that.  My point was that it was off-topic and utterly stupid.

Criticizing people for writing books?  I criticized a particularly pathetic writer that someone brought up here (not me) as a source for those books.  I think that's perfectly fair.  As for these authors' love for Brian, I wouldn't know, nor was I questioning it.  Interviews are all good.  Actually living it is another thing entirely.

Debbie, we are lucky to have you here! You were there, and you get it!
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« Reply #55 on: April 17, 2016, 02:45:21 AM »


But the main reason I have followed this thread is because I enjoy Ian's and Andrew's research and analytical discussion of new information. Although my book ended in 1963, my interest does not. The scope of their research is so vast, essentially the band's entire ongoing career, and I enjoy reading about their discovery of new facts shedding light on old myths. Especially the pivotal moment in the band's career being discussed presently. There is a real value in setting the record straight while these events are only fifty odd years in the past. And, long after the band, and those who documented their history, have danced off this Earth, the books will be all that is left for future generations to study as they enjoy the incredible musical catalog of the band we had the honor and privilege to see and hear in our lifetimes.


It would be nice to read a thread that doesn't end up being like a tabloid. I've been reading it and learning (as usual) and been rather pleased that some people have stuck to Andrew's original intentions despite the, no doubt intentional, baiting by one of the five or six board members who don't seem to be able to leave anything alone. Even Cam's behaved  Smiley I'm not criticising you, Debbie. I'm well acquainted with the Kent article and its inaccuracies - in fact Andrew was one of the first I read to highlight this. He was one of those writers who wanted to be a star in the Lester Bangs/Hunter S Thompson mode but he wasn't prepared to let the facts get in the way of his star's ascendancy. Oddly enough, though, he was a fan of the band, especially Brian - the real one, not just the one he wrote about.
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mikeddonn
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« Reply #56 on: April 17, 2016, 02:46:22 AM »

And, of course, you're all selling your books - some of you selling them based on questionable research due to questionable sources.  

Sure seemed like you were having a dig at more than Nick Kent.  Oh well...maybe not.

I understand you have every right to be angry at Nick Kent but not others.  And not the "you people" on the board.

The majority are here because we love the Beach Boys, not to slag off band members or other posters.
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Cam Mott
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« Reply #57 on: April 17, 2016, 04:48:08 AM »

FWIW my December 22 1964 ticket is a stub, so much for the ol' gray cells.  

Hopefully not the same as Jim's.

« Last Edit: April 17, 2016, 05:17:30 AM by Cam Mott » Logged

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« Reply #58 on: April 17, 2016, 05:52:57 AM »

FWIW my December 22 1964 ticket is a stub, so much for the ol' gray cells.  

Hopefully not the same as Jim's.



Thanks for posting this Cam.

Ian, Jim, et al, since this was an American Productions concert, shouldn't Fred Vail be able to confirm this string of dates?  Or does he no longer have his log books from that time period?

Lee
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Jim Murphy
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« Reply #59 on: April 17, 2016, 07:01:47 AM »

Thanks for posting the ticket stub, Cam.  The ticket stub attributed to me is just something I came across on eBay, noticed the date, thought Hmm?, and shared it with Ian and Andrew. It is a different stub than yours -- it is for Section D, Row A, Seat 1 -- and not nearly as nice as yours as it is torn in a less desirable manner -- "--ACH BOYS" and the "American" is missing before "Productions." 

Good catch, Lee, on the "American Productions" and excellent idea about contacting Fred, one of the nicest, most generous guys in Beach Boys world. Would you like to contact Fred, Ian? If you cannot right now, let me know and I'd be happy to call him.  We are also both huge Marty Robbins fans, so I always enjoy talking with Fred.     
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Ian
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« Reply #60 on: April 17, 2016, 07:43:32 AM »

I interviewed Ron swallow who was with the band on that tour and Fred vail, who was not. Fred booked some shows for the bbs but was not in charge by that time of a lot of that. I asked him about info like that and he didn't seem to have any paperwork. A lot of the bbs shows at this time were booked by William Morris, who claimed to me that they discarded those records years ago
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Ian
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« Reply #61 on: April 17, 2016, 07:56:07 AM »

Around this period Fred started working for another company and than was hired by the bbs again in 1969
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Ian
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« Reply #62 on: April 17, 2016, 08:28:15 AM »

Nonetheless I will email fred
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« Reply #63 on: April 17, 2016, 09:16:21 AM »

Thanks for posting the ticket stub, Cam.  The ticket stub attributed to me is just something I came across on eBay, noticed the date, thought Hmm?, and shared it with Ian and Andrew. It is a different stub than yours -- it is for Section D, Row A, Seat 1 -- and not nearly as nice as yours as it is torn in a less desirable manner -- "--ACH BOYS" and the "American" is missing before "Productions." 


http://www.ebay.com/itm/BEACH-BOYS-DEC-22-1964-DALLAS-TEXAS-TICKET-STUB-VG-CREASE-SCARCE-CLEAN-/141948569530?hash=item210ccb47ba:g:lYYAAOSwbwlXAWSZ
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« Reply #64 on: April 17, 2016, 10:07:43 AM »

FWIW my December 22 1964 ticket is a stub, so much for the ol' gray cells.  

Hopefully not the same as Jim's.



Thanks for posting that ticket stub, Cam.

Man, it's nice to have this thread back on track. Hope it stays that way.

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Emdeeh
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« Reply #65 on: April 17, 2016, 11:08:45 AM »



Also, an amended timeline:

19 - Assembly Center Arena, Tulsa, OK
20 - Little Rock Auditorium, Little Rock AR* [cancelled]
22 - Memorial Auditorium, Dallas TX* [postponed to the 26th ?]

23 - Music Hall, Houston TX
25 - Memphis TN [cancelled]
26 - Memorial Auditorium, Dallas TX

Where did this Memphis date come from??

I lived in Memphis at the time. There was NO Memphis Beach Boys concert being advertised there. If there had been, I would have had tickets and been going to that show! (Were they doing private gigs then?)

However, there was a BB show being advertised in Jackson, MS for either Dec. 24 or 25. I tuned in to a Jackson radio station that was sponsoring the show when the guys were supposed to be in town, hoping to hear an interview. Instead, they said the show had been cancelled because Brian had been hospitalized and even gave an address to send him get-well cards.

In case you're wondering, I was too way too young to road trip to Jackson at the time. Local shows were doable, since the parents would drop us off at the show and pick us up afterward.
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Emily
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« Reply #66 on: April 17, 2016, 11:13:02 AM »



Also, an amended timeline:

19 - Assembly Center Arena, Tulsa, OK
20 - Little Rock Auditorium, Little Rock AR* [cancelled]
22 - Memorial Auditorium, Dallas TX* [postponed to the 26th ?]

23 - Music Hall, Houston TX
25 - Memphis TN [cancelled]
26 - Memorial Auditorium, Dallas TX

Where did this Memphis date come from??

I lived in Memphis at the time. There was NO Memphis Beach Boys concert being advertised there. If there had been, I would have had tickets and been going to that show! (Were they doing private gigs then?)

However, there was a BB show being advertised in Jackson, MS for either Dec. 24 or 25. I tuned in to a Jackson radio station that was sponsoring the show when the guys were supposed to be in town, hoping to hear an interview. Instead, they said the show had been cancelled because Brian had been hospitalized and even gave an address to send him get-well cards.

In case you're wondering, I was too way too young to road trip to Jackson at the time. Local shows were doable, since the parents would drop us off at the show and pick us up afterward.
Is this new information, Ian and Andrew? I've never heard it.
Thanks Emdeeh.
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Ian
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« Reply #67 on: April 17, 2016, 11:44:25 AM »

Yes-Jackson, MS-I knew of that.  Don't know why the site says Memphis but we will fix that.
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« Reply #68 on: April 17, 2016, 12:45:13 PM »


I tuned in to a Jackson radio station that was sponsoring the show when the guys were supposed to be in town, hoping to hear an interview. Instead, they said the show had been cancelled because Brian had been hospitalized and even gave an address to send him get-well cards.


More interesting info. Thanks, mdh!

(PS - Did you send Brian a get-well card?)
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Cam Mott
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« Reply #69 on: April 17, 2016, 01:22:59 PM »

Maybe this has already been proposed, I kind of lost track of the thread there for a bit, but if the 22nd Dallas show was postponed wouldn't a ticket holder present his 22nd ticket to be cancelled (torn) at the 26th show?  Never had personal experience with this sort of situation, anyone else?

Apologies if already discussed.
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« Reply #70 on: April 17, 2016, 01:59:18 PM »

Another thought. I don't know if the venues keep any records for historical reasons, but would it be worth contacting them?
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Ian
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« Reply #71 on: April 17, 2016, 02:15:43 PM »

Yes that is true but we just don't know if the show was played December 22 or 26.
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Debbie KL
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« Reply #72 on: April 17, 2016, 02:21:05 PM »

And, of course, you're all selling your books - some of you selling them based on questionable research due to questionable sources.  

Sure seemed like you were having a dig at more than Nick Kent.  Oh well...maybe not.

I understand you have every right to be angry at Nick Kent but not others.  And not the "you people" on the board.

The majority are here because we love the Beach Boys, not to slag off band members or other posters.

Well, that would depend on who used Nick Kent's writings as fact and who didn't. Some in books, some elsewhere.  I am not prepared, nor do I intend to investigate the issue.

I doubt that Nick Kent's fantasy writings would effect Jim Murphy, since that wasn't his period - I actually bought his book and plan to read it when I get a minute.  I seriously doubt I'm talking about Stebbins either, as he had better sources - some mutual friends of ours. Stebbins and I got along quite well in our brief encounters celebrating Dennis's life and he gave me a signed copy of his Dennis book.  I harbor no ill will there.  Stephen Gaines struck me as a meticulous writer in a realm that offered big $$$, but required the "dirt."  An odd combination, but he had some ethics.  I liked him, too.

Clearly we aren't talking about David Leaf's book, as it was before all of this stuff and quoted often.  This was another person who conducted extensive interviews with people who were there at the time, and was careful about his sources.

I'm afraid I've probably missed some writer who was mentioned, but that isn't implying guilt by my omission.  I'm just too busy to go back and see who was mentioned in this thread.

My criticism was for people who tout that slimy stuff promoted by Kent as reality.  I know many were seduced by the "dark side" garbage of his fantasies.  I guess I should give the man credit for that.  If only he'd admitted that it was fiction, not journalism.  Sadly, I see the Nick Kent mentality here on a relatively frequent basis.  I do not know it's source(s).  I'm just sick of it.
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Emdeeh
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« Reply #73 on: April 17, 2016, 03:02:59 PM »

(PS - Did you send Brian a get-well card?)

Yes, I sent it through the fan club and got back a photo of the band.
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« Reply #74 on: April 17, 2016, 03:46:09 PM »


Yes that is true but we just don't know if the show was played December 22 or 26.


Apologies if this was previously discussed, but I had thought the Dec. 26 date was set in stone, but apparently not, so where did the Dec. 26 date come from?






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