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Author Topic: The December 1964 event.  (Read 12730 times)
SurfRiderHawaii
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« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2016, 12:58:08 PM »

...but wasn't there also something about Brian being wigged out when leaving LA because Marilyn was supposedly "making eyes" at Mike? Or is that simply "urban legend"?

I always wondered about that, too. Where or from whom did the Marilyn "making eyes" at Mike story originate? I mean, Brian and Marilyn just got married two weeks previously!

As far as Brian having "a breakdown" on the plane, I saw an interview with Marilyn where she questioned that description.

But, this is The Beach Boys, and I believe there are stories (from Brian?) of Dennis sleeping with all of the guys' wives. And, of course, there is the story of Brian having an affair with his sister-in-law - while he was still married to Marilyn.

Debbie's right!
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« Reply #26 on: April 16, 2016, 01:40:08 PM »

Not sure how helpful but there is a concert eye witness, Ron Foster:

http://www.houstonpress.com/music/shored-up-6564082

Fascinating that Mike Love states he has no recollection of Brian having a breakdown on the plane:

Five minutes into the flight to Houston, Wilson started crying and making shrieking noises. He screamed into a pillow, spun out of his seat and sobbed on the cabin floor. Beach Boys Carl Wilson and Al Jardine tried to comfort him, but couldn't. "We were really scared for him," says Jardine. "[We were] concerned for him because he was so upset. He obviously had a breakdown. None of us had ever witnessed something like that." (Curiously, Love doesn't recall the incident. "I don't know if it was because I wasn't there or some other reason," he says. " might have been in another part of the plane. I think his brothers were closer to that than I was at the time.")

And then dj Ron Foster says Brian performed in Houston, while Al Jardine says he didn't:

Foster witnessed the concert, which he says Wilson played and performed in, from backstage and says it seemed like "just a regular Beach Boys concert." It was hard to hear the band over all the screaming teenagers, anyway. Yet Beach Boy Jardine is of the minority that says Wilson did not perform. "He just stayed in his room and went home."



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Ian
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« Reply #27 on: April 16, 2016, 01:42:25 PM »

are you surprised that three people recall an incident differently or don't recall it all?? Very common!!!  My friends have forgotten many nights that I recall with crystal clarity and I've forgotten a few that they always bring up. And I'm not as old as the BBs.  1964 was now 52 years ago!!
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Debbie KL
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« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2016, 02:29:20 PM »

are you surprised that three people recall an incident differently or don't recall it all?? Very common!!!  My friends have forgotten many nights that I recall with crystal clarity and I've forgotten a few that they always bring up. And I'm not as old as the BBs.  1964 was now 52 years ago!!

Yet, I think it's safe to say that the fundamental take-aways from these events are pretty clear for most people, unless they were inconsequential.  We all know what we felt and some key things about what we said and didn't say that changed the course of events in our lives...and we remember the context of it all.

Frankly, in the most intense events in my life, I don't think I ever jotted down the date, time and location.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2016, 02:33:50 PM by Debbie KL » Logged
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« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2016, 03:51:20 PM »

I certainly agree with Debbie that this borders on invasiveness if we aren't careful about it. But the source for the Marilyn-Mike thing was an article in which Brian was quoted about it, so it might be a bit harsh to judge us when we merely are sifting through what's been said in the public domain to determine if Ian's theory about a revised date makes sense.

All the evidence from available accounts indicates that Brian was being besieged by emotional turmoil in this time frame, and what's truly significant is that he found a way to remedy a good bit of that--he entered into one of his most productive periods once he was able to stay off the road. We are fortunate to have the music that stemmed from the aftereffects of the December 1964 event.
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« Reply #30 on: April 16, 2016, 04:10:18 PM »

Well by the way if you are interested we've made many updates to the gigs and sessions part of bellagio hosted by esq. if you have my book, I've found many new shows that I didn't know about when the book was written and rectified a few errors. We've  also added info uncovered by Jim Murphy and others. And we continue to update session info when Craig reveals something new. If you have my book just open it to 1962 and than look at bellagio 1962 to see the additions. You can do it year by year. If you just have badmans book you'll find hundreds of additions and corrections. I'd like to start a blog to show a lot of my sources but so far haven't got it together
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Debbie KL
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« Reply #31 on: April 16, 2016, 04:13:31 PM »

I don't think you can blame the sheriff for that. All of this stuff was discussed in nick Kent and Steven gaines and the bbs themselves over shared in the famous pieces for rolling stone in 1971 and 1976

Yes, and how does that have anything to do with this topic, besides turning it into an attack on the Wilson's as usual, in this thread?  I can very easily blame SJS - he brought it up for no real reason in a thread that has been so highly touted as the righteous area of historians.  And thanks for ignoring my more prominent point - burying the truth in minutiae.  AGD asked the question, and I answered, observing how this thread went, as usual.

And you people still quote Nick Kent.  Amazing.  I met Nick Kent.  Have any of you?  He was lying on the floor in a semi-conscious state of some Hollywood type and we were "sort of" introduced by my friend Michele Myer.  Michele was among the people who were involved with housing, feeding and transporting this guy around BB land because they were impressed with NME, in spite of his obvious condition.  He screwed them all over in what he wrote later in his "Dark Side" crap.  He got to meet the BBs.  Most of you are fans of Marilyn Wilson Rutherford.  I know she wanted to sue over his first article and all the misrepresentations.  I don't know if that happened or not.

In an ironic twist, the BBs held a press conference a few years later and he was one of the reporters invited.  He was held up at Heathrow for about 24 hours because he was on the national methadon program.  For some reason, some ill-informed person in the BBs offices sent him to Brian's house with his NME creds to interview Brian.  His photographer was there and got a shot of Brian and I together.  I was described as an idiot named "Diane." I understand, in his book later, he explained that away as my being too stupid to know my own name, in essence. 

I'm glad you guys have picked your sources so impeccably in your research.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2016, 04:37:46 PM by Debbie KL » Logged
Ian
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« Reply #32 on: April 16, 2016, 04:29:36 PM »

I didn't quote him but I don't damn him either-he wrote very well and interviewed a lot of people in the BBs inner circle to produce his now legendary three part story of the Last Beach Movie.  Now, I didn't discuss any gossip in my posts-just facts.  I don't think that I have ever attacked the Wilsons in any of my posts. I love all the Wilsons.  I tend to stick to the facts or try to find them.  But I don't think Nick Kent was a liar or inaccurate either.  Read his piece again and tell me what is a lie in it.   But I don't think the Sheriffs post came from Nick Kent anyways-probably Steven Gaines instead.
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« Reply #33 on: April 16, 2016, 04:31:11 PM »

Maybe something else not necessarily helpful:

“I filled in for Brian for a few dates in Dallas and Houston... “Mike [Love] and Carl [Wilson] called me on a Wednesday and said, ‘Glen, can you be here tomorrow? You gotta play bass and do Brian’s part.’ I said, ‘Sure.’ I had been doing their sessions, so I could easily fill in.
“The only problem was, I didn’t know all the words to the songs. They’d be singing “Pasadena,” and I’d be singing something else,” Campbell adds. “I didn’t know what I was saying. But the screams were so loud from the girls, you’d walk onstage and you couldn’t hear a thing anyway.”
Glen Campbell
The Beach Boys: The Definitive Diary of America’s Greatest Band on Stage and in the Studio
http://theboot.com/glen-campbell-beach-boys/

December 23rd 1964 was on a Wednesday.

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Debbie KL
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« Reply #34 on: April 16, 2016, 04:39:08 PM »

I don't think you can blame the sheriff for that. All of this stuff was discussed in nick Kent and Steven gaines and the bbs themselves over shared in the famous pieces for rolling stone in 1971 and 1976

Yes, and how does that have anything to do with this topic, besides turning it into an attack on the Wilson's as usual, in this thread?  I can very easily blame SJS - he brought it up for no real reason in a thread that has been so highly touted as the righteous area of historians.  And thanks for ignoring my more prominent point - burying the truth in minutiae.  AGD asked the question, and I answered, observing how this thread went, as usual.

And you people still quote Nick Kent.  Amazing.  I met Nick Kent.  Have any of you?  He was lying on the floor in a semi-conscious state of some Hollywood type and we were "sort of" introduced by my friend Michele Myer.  Michele was among the people who were involved with housing, feeding and transporting this guy around BB land because they were impressed with NME, in spite of his obvious condition.  He screwed them all over in what he wrote later in his "Dark Side" crap.  He got to meet the BBs.  Most of you are fans of Marilyn Wilson Rutherford.  I know she wanted to sue over his first article and all the misrepresentations.  I don't know if that happened or not.

In an ironic twist, the BBs held a press conference a few years later and he was one of the reporters invited.  He was held up at Heathrow for about 24 hours because he was on the national methadon program.  For some reason, some ill-informed person in the BBs offices sent him to Brian's house with his NME creds to interview Brian.  His photographer was there and got a shot of Brian and I together.  I was described as an idiot named "Diane." I understand, in his book later, he explained that away as my being too stupid to know my own name, in essence. 

I'm glad you guys have picked your sources so impeccably in your research.
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Debbie KL
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« Reply #35 on: April 16, 2016, 04:45:47 PM »

You guys, just keep on at it.  Some of us were there at various times.  You might want to ask actual eye-witnesses instead of a guy who offended everyone in LA around the BBs and others, and was on a UK methadon program at the time.
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« Reply #36 on: April 16, 2016, 04:57:00 PM »

I didn't ask Nick Kent anything.  But I did read his stuff.  I asked eyewitnesses about lots of things and they remember what they remember and don't recall what they don't recall.  I remember that Glen interview in Badman's book.  Now in almost every other interview he did-including a few I have from the late 60s, he says his first show was Dallas.  So I don't know what to think.  Like I said-it's unlikely to be solved unless someone finds more info (like a ticket for the Houston show-which could turn up anytime on eBay).   I asked the BBs friend and roadie Ron Swallow and he asked Marilyn Wilson and they don't recall the details (though Ron does recall that he flew back to California with Brian and returned to Texas when Glen flew down there) and no one seems to have kept a journal-so for now I can't state anything about the exact dates of Houston and Dallas (except that they were both between December 21 and 26 1964).
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« Reply #37 on: April 16, 2016, 04:59:12 PM »

You guys, just keep on at it.  Some of us were there at various times.  You might want to ask actual eye-witnesses instead of a guy who offended everyone in LA around the BBs and others, and was on a UK methadon program at the time.

If this place disgusts you so much, why are you even here?

 And while we're at it, why don't you leave us a list of writers who you deem are acceptable, and not acceptable. I mean seriously-'Have you ever met Nick Kent'? No, most probably haven't, because we weren't 'actual eye-witnesses' (which I imagine you were referring to yourself, of course). So how would we know who's a good interviewer or not?
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« Reply #38 on: April 16, 2016, 05:01:41 PM »

I didn't ask Nick Kent anything.  But I did read his stuff.  I asked eyewitnesses about lots of things and they remember what they remember and don't recall what they don't recall.  I remember that Glen interview in Badman's book.  Now in almost every other interview he did-including a few I have from the late 60s, he says his first show was Dallas.  So I don't know what to think.  Like I said-it's unlikely to be solved unless someone finds more info (like a ticket for the Houston show-which could turn up anytime on eBay).   I asked the BBs friend and roadie Ron Swallow and he asked Marilyn Wilson and they don't recall the details (though Ron does recall that he flew back to California with Brian and returned to Texas when Glen flew down there) and no one seems to have kept a journal-so for now I can't state anything about the exact dates of Houston and Dallas (except that they were both between December 21 and 26 1964).

I wonder if the Music Hall has an archive of records somewhere? Library, University, State Historical Society, etc.?
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« Reply #39 on: April 16, 2016, 05:03:53 PM »

I've read this thread with great interest because, after spending eight years writing Becoming the Beach Boys, 1961-1963, I imagine I am one of those who believes historical accuracy matters. In fact, it was the maddening lack of a cohesive narrative of their early history that prompted me to begin researching and writing the book. My Dad used to say, "If something was worth doing, it was worth doing right." History is like that. Now, grant it, this level of attention to detail in the pursuit of accuracy, may not be for everyone. It doesn't have to be. I've had friends and family, after reading my book, tell me, "Good Gawd, did I have to know about matrix and delta numbers, and dead wax?" Probably not. But they do play a role in the story.

But the main reason I have followed this thread is because I enjoy Ian's and Andrew's research and analytical discussion of new information. Although my book ended in 1963, my interest does not. The scope of their research is so vast, essentially the band's entire ongoing career, and I enjoy reading about their discovery of new facts shedding light on old myths. Especially the pivotal moment in the band's career being discussed presently. There is a real value in setting the record straight while these events are only fifty odd years in the past. And, long after the band, and those who documented their history, have danced off this Earth, the books will be all that is left for future generations to study as they enjoy the incredible musical catalog of the band we had the honor and privilege to see and hear in our lifetimes.

The guys themselves have said so many things over the years that invite gossipy speculation. So, if someone is intrigued by one of these juicy tidbits, so be it. Personally, I have no interest in their private lives. My life intersected with the Beach Boys through their music, which has brought me an inordinate amount of joy and happiness. I look at it like this -- They have their lives and I have mine. I wish them all the best, of course, and lives of happiness and fulfillment. Certainly they deserve that in exchange for all they have given the world. And whether they make new music or release archival material, I know and care so much about their history, and their body of work, that I will always enjoy hearing each new release.  

To borrow one of Dennis's song titles, the Beach Boys music has been my constant companion. And, for me, that's enough.  
« Last Edit: April 16, 2016, 05:04:45 PM by Jim Murphy » Logged
Emily
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« Reply #40 on: April 16, 2016, 05:11:03 PM »

You guys, just keep on at it.  Some of us were there at various times.  You might want to ask actual eye-witnesses instead of a guy who offended everyone in LA around the BBs and others, and was on a UK methadon program at the time.

If this place disgusts you so much, why are you even here?

 And while we're at it, why don't you leave us a list of writers who you deem are acceptable, and not acceptable. I mean seriously-'Have you ever met Nick Kent'? No, most probably haven't, because we weren't 'actual eye-witnesses' (which I imagine you were referring to yourself, of course). So how would we know who's a good interviewer or not?
I'm pretty sure everyone on this board has a problem with someone else on the board. If that caused people to leave, it would be empty.
She didn't say the place disgusts her. She said she doesn't like some of the material in some posts.
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Debbie KL
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« Reply #41 on: April 16, 2016, 05:12:50 PM »

And, of course, you're all selling your books - some of you selling them based on questionable research due to questionable sources.  

I'm selling nothing and have taken no money in any of this.

It's actually highly amusing from my perspective.

What is it, exactly that you people want?
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« Reply #42 on: April 16, 2016, 05:22:10 PM »

And, of course, you're all selling your books - some of you selling them based on questionable research due to questionable sources.  
When I made a similar note (specifically regarding which people obsessed over using real names), I was called a patronizing twaddler. Badge of honor, I guess. But anyway...

What is it, exactly that you people want?

Obviously there is no "you people," and so nothing that the nonexistent "we" want. Some people want to obsess over the historical facts, maybe in an effort toward scholarly research, maybe just over geekdom. Some people want to chat casually with other people who share appreciation of a band they love. Some people want to get into musical details: arrangements, engineering, production. Some people want to talk about memorabilia and collections. Some want to reiterate their particularly obsessive focus against the very existence of "myke luv." Some want to hear from and communicate with people such as yourself, who had some role in the band's history. There are as many things "we people" want as there are "we people."
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« Reply #43 on: April 16, 2016, 05:22:42 PM »

You guys, just keep on at it.  Some of us were there at various times.  You might want to ask actual eye-witnesses instead of a guy who offended everyone in LA around the BBs and others, and was on a UK methadon program at the time.

If this place disgusts you so much, why are you even here?

 And while we're at it, why don't you leave us a list of writers who you deem are acceptable, and not acceptable. I mean seriously-'Have you ever met Nick Kent'? No, most probably haven't, because we weren't 'actual eye-witnesses' (which I imagine you were referring to yourself, of course). So how would we know who's a good interviewer or not?
I'm pretty sure everyone on this board has a problem with someone else on the board. If that caused people to leave, it would be empty.
She didn't say the place disgusts her. She said she doesn't like some of the material in some posts.

Yes, Emily thanks - I actually ignored this, but I probably should have replied.  

I didn't leave because I care about the truth, and try to speak it - yes, as an eye-witness in a number of instances.  

What's your point, exactly, Verlander?  Are you Nick Kent, if he's even still alive?  I don't know you, as far as I know - although since you're under a fake name I have no idea.

I think I made my point.  People here are spouting things as fact because they read it somewhere.  If it's re-written, you'll repeat that as fact.

I'm sorry it pi**es you off that you weren't there, but you weren't.  

I speak up when it's too egregious.  It isn't a pleasant task, but it's necessary.  
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« Reply #44 on: April 16, 2016, 05:25:23 PM »


are you surprised that three people recall an incident differently or don't recall it all?? Very common!!!  My friends have forgotten many nights that I recall with crystal clarity and I've forgotten a few that they always bring up. And I'm not as old as the BBs.  1964 was now 52 years ago!!


Well, considering the way in which Brian's breakdown on the plane is described, I find it surprising that Mike stated that he has no recollection of it. Even if he was in another area of the plane, you'd think the other guys would have made a big deal about it when he returned. Such an occurrence, assuming it's described accurately, is not a run-of-the-mill event that you would assume would likely be forgotten.

As far as the dj and Al having different recollections as to whether or not Brian played the Houston concert, yeah, that's not all that surprising, but I still find the discrepancy fascinating in that it adds to the confusion of establishing an accurate historical timeline.



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« Reply #45 on: April 16, 2016, 05:36:25 PM »


... What is it, exactly that you people want?


Well, speaking for myself, I'm here to discuss my favorite band in a calm and respectful manner. The music of Brian Wilson and The Beach Boys has brought me unparalleled joy, and an accurate recounting of their history, which includes info such as concert dates, set lists, release dates of singles and albums, etc, is especially interesting to me.

The sentiments expressed in Jim Murphy's post below sum up my feelings perfectly.


I've read this thread with great interest because, after spending eight years writing Becoming the Beach Boys, 1961-1963, I imagine I am one of those who believes historical accuracy matters. In fact, it was the maddening lack of a cohesive narrative of their early history that prompted me to begin researching and writing the book. My Dad used to say, "If something was worth doing, it was worth doing right." History is like that. Now, grant it, this level of attention to detail in the pursuit of accuracy, may not be for everyone. It doesn't have to be. I've had friends and family, after reading my book, tell me, "Good Gawd, did I have to know about matrix and delta numbers, and dead wax?" Probably not. But they do play a role in the story.

But the main reason I have followed this thread is because I enjoy Ian's and Andrew's research and analytical discussion of new information. Although my book ended in 1963, my interest does not. The scope of their research is so vast, essentially the band's entire ongoing career, and I enjoy reading about their discovery of new facts shedding light on old myths. Especially the pivotal moment in the band's career being discussed presently. There is a real value in setting the record straight while these events are only fifty odd years in the past. And, long after the band, and those who documented their history, have danced off this Earth, the books will be all that is left for future generations to study as they enjoy the incredible musical catalog of the band we had the honor and privilege to see and hear in our lifetimes.

The guys themselves have said so many things over the years that invite gossipy speculation. So, if someone is intrigued by one of these juicy tidbits, so be it. Personally, I have no interest in their private lives. My life intersected with the Beach Boys through their music, which has brought me an inordinate amount of joy and happiness. I look at it like this -- They have their lives and I have mine. I wish them all the best, of course, and lives of happiness and fulfillment. Certainly they deserve that in exchange for all they have given the world. And whether they make new music or release archival material, I know and care so much about their history, and their body of work, that I will always enjoy hearing each new release.  

To borrow one of Dennis's song titles, the Beach Boys music has been my constant companion. And, for me, that's enough.  

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« Reply #46 on: April 16, 2016, 05:49:13 PM »


... What is it, exactly that you people want?


Well, speaking for myself, I'm here to discuss my favorite band in a calm and respectful manner. The music of Brian Wilson and The Beach Boys has brought me unparalleled joy, and an accurate recounting of their history, which includes info such as concert dates, set lists, release dates of singles and albums, etc, is especially interesting to me.

The sentiments expressed in Jim Murphy's post below sum up my feelings perfectly.


I've read this thread with great interest because, after spending eight years writing Becoming the Beach Boys, 1961-1963, I imagine I am one of those who believes historical accuracy matters. In fact, it was the maddening lack of a cohesive narrative of their early history that prompted me to begin researching and writing the book. My Dad used to say, "If something was worth doing, it was worth doing right." History is like that. Now, grant it, this level of attention to detail in the pursuit of accuracy, may not be for everyone. It doesn't have to be. I've had friends and family, after reading my book, tell me, "Good Gawd, did I have to know about matrix and delta numbers, and dead wax?" Probably not. But they do play a role in the story.

But the main reason I have followed this thread is because I enjoy Ian's and Andrew's research and analytical discussion of new information. Although my book ended in 1963, my interest does not. The scope of their research is so vast, essentially the band's entire ongoing career, and I enjoy reading about their discovery of new facts shedding light on old myths. Especially the pivotal moment in the band's career being discussed presently. There is a real value in setting the record straight while these events are only fifty odd years in the past. And, long after the band, and those who documented their history, have danced off this Earth, the books will be all that is left for future generations to study as they enjoy the incredible musical catalog of the band we had the honor and privilege to see and hear in our lifetimes.

The guys themselves have said so many things over the years that invite gossipy speculation. So, if someone is intrigued by one of these juicy tidbits, so be it. Personally, I have no interest in their private lives. My life intersected with the Beach Boys through their music, which has brought me an inordinate amount of joy and happiness. I look at it like this -- They have their lives and I have mine. I wish them all the best, of course, and lives of happiness and fulfillment. Certainly they deserve that in exchange for all they have given the world. And whether they make new music or release archival material, I know and care so much about their history, and their body of work, that I will always enjoy hearing each new release.  

To borrow one of Dennis's song titles, the Beach Boys music has been my constant companion. And, for me, that's enough.  


And you consider this thread "respectful."  Fine.  I don't, as the "historians" have been trying to cover for the gossips quoting Nick Kent.  I don't mind being the "bad guy" here.  It's pretty funny, in an ironic way. 

Of course, it's about the music, in the end.  Have I ever argued that point?

And yet many of you still attack the source of the music, for some bizarre reason.  That's what so puzzles me.  What do you want, exactly?  The man is still touring, sharing the love and the happiness, as he's described it publicly.  Yet, here we are. 

Seriously, what is it you're after?
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« Reply #47 on: April 16, 2016, 06:05:34 PM »

Deb, DLTBGYD. You were there. No one else here was. Finis.  Cool Guy
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« Reply #48 on: April 16, 2016, 06:21:29 PM »

Deb, DLTBGYD. You were there. No one else here was. Finis.  Cool Guy

Thank you, OSD.  It seems to really pi** a lot of people off.  Oh well.
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« Reply #49 on: April 16, 2016, 07:05:53 PM »

Nobody in this thread criticised a Wilson.  We know what you think about SJS and that's your prerogative but I don't think you should be criticising people for writing books.  I'm sure the guys who right the books have interviewed a lot of people who were there.  They don't all say the same thing. Therefore, readers try to draw their own conclusions.  If Brian and Mike want to write good autobiographies I hope they have good fact checkers in place!  How many times over the years have Beach Boys changed stories?  They are only human and sometimes may tell half truths and embellish other things here and there. Human nature.

Debbie, do you really believe guys like Ian, Jim or Jon don't love Brian?  He's the main reason we are here on this board now.  Not everyone is on Mike Love's payroll, just as I'm sure not everyone is on Brian's.

Shame this thread has now been derailed.
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