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Author Topic: The December 1964 event.  (Read 11998 times)
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« Reply #125 on: April 25, 2016, 05:39:44 PM »

Murry
The road
myKe luHv

The trifecta from Hell for Brian.
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« Reply #126 on: April 25, 2016, 05:44:56 PM »

My personal hope is that after a sufficient cooling-off period, the mods and the owner of this board will consider a probationary reinstatement for AGD. Of course that is up to them, but that's my wish. On a scale of 1-10, Andrew's ability to suffer fools was hovering at about 0.4, but the key is to ignore 90% of the aggravating stuff that happens here.

As for "faking it" and doing good work after, this is indeed a murky point. But consider there was no interruption whatsoever in Brian's output after this incident. The problem is that shading the incident around words that kinda sorta cover the description of the episode ("nervous breakdown," "panic attack," "meltdown," "hysterical episode" et al) leaves us all a bit too much wiggle room to argue "definitively" through the type of "geometric logic" that got Humphrey Bogart's character into so much trouble in THE CAINE MUTINY.  Let's await further information/testimony and keep in mind that the obsessive search for "truth" sometimes has an unintended impact, which results in a great researcher being banned from a place where his contributions have been vast.

It could also be reasoned that Brian's output continued at the same pace because an immediate stressor was removed( the road) and another one soon would be.  (Murry). However the problems resurfaced because other stressors exacerbated the condition.  Treating the symptoms not the cause is a good explanation.

Well said.
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« Reply #127 on: April 25, 2016, 05:58:27 PM »

I've always been curios about the day that Brian had his"nervous breakdown". What went on earlier in the day? Did some kind of argument set Brian off? Was it a particularly stressful day?
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« Reply #128 on: April 25, 2016, 07:54:14 PM »

Murry
The road
myKe luHv

The trifecta from Hell for Brian.

  Yes, Mike put the voices in Brian's head. He really is an evil genius.  Kind of like Lex Luthor with a bit more hair.

  Sure, personal relationships within the band - including  Mike - contributed to the stress. I've always believed the demand for product played a role. A new single every three or four months; you were only as good as your last hit. Three studio albums in a year. Brian didn't do it alone, but the composition, arrangement, and production of the music was all pretty much on his head. That's pressure.
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« Reply #129 on: April 25, 2016, 08:10:42 PM »

Murry
The road
myKe luHv

The trifecta from Hell for Brian.

  Yes, Mike put the voices in Brian's head. He really is an evil genius.  Kind of like Lex Luthor with a bit more hair.

  Sure, personal relationships within the band - including  Mike - contributed to the stress. I've always believed the demand for product played a role. A new single every three or four months; you were only as good as your last hit. Three studio albums in a year. Brian didn't do it alone, but the composition, arrangement, and production of the music was all pretty much on his head. That's pressure.
I agree that the demand for product was probably putting a huge amount of stress on him.
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« Reply #130 on: April 25, 2016, 08:17:54 PM »

Murry
The road
myKe luHv

The trifecta from Hell for Brian.

  Yes, Mike put the voices in Brian's head. He really is an evil genius.  Kind of like Lex Luthor with a bit more hair.

  Sure, personal relationships within the band - including  Mike - contributed to the stress. I've always believed the demand for product played a role. A new single every three or four months; you were only as good as your last hit. Three studio albums in a year. Brian didn't do it alone, but the composition, arrangement, and production of the music was all pretty much on his head. That's pressure.
I agree that the demand for product was probably putting a huge amount of stress on him.

I think the stressors of Mike's creative differences with Brian, coupled with Mike's personality, didn't really become more of a significant issue for Brian until a year+ later. Just looking at Love & Mercy, one can see the deep guilt trips being directed at Brian from Mike, as Brian truly began to creatively flower. Replacing Mike as primary lyricist surely helped Brian find someone who wanted to look for places where new things might be found, but surely didn't help Brian receive less stress/grief from an increasingly jealous bandmate who had to feel threatened and insecure. It was the perfect storm.
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« Reply #131 on: April 25, 2016, 08:58:54 PM »

I think the pressure on Brian was from Brian; his drive to create, produce, compete, and "scare" the record buyer and record industry.
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« Reply #132 on: April 25, 2016, 09:36:26 PM »

I think the pressure on Brian was from Brian; his drive to create, produce, compete, and "scare" the record buyer and record industry.
I think that's true as well.
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« Reply #133 on: April 25, 2016, 09:41:49 PM »

I think the pressure on Brian was from Brian; his drive to create, produce, compete, and "scare" the record buyer and record industry.
I think that's true as well.

Definitely, and I bet he put more pressure on  himself than anybody.  Stands to reason...he has always struck me as someone who cares more about others and their feelings than his own, and the thought of letting people down likely was anathema to him.
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« Reply #134 on: April 25, 2016, 10:37:33 PM »

If Brian had truly been incapacitated by the pressure and had a true "nervous breakdown," he would have been much less able to embark on a period of his greatest artistic growth--which is precisely what occurred when he was able to get off the road.

...

Your point about people who break down not being an out-and-out mental case actually supports the notion that someone would engineer such an episode.

While I don't disagree with much of your post, it is certainly the case that people have authentic panic attacks that don't hinder their ability to proceed afterward with their work. That someone did good work after a panic attack is no evidence that the panic attack was 'faked' or 'engineered' or whatever.

When Brian openly states that he faked the airplane incident, I'll believe him. Until then I will stick with the status quo. There is way too much nutty speculation on this board and I just found the AGD ban thread today so I'm at a loss as to figure out the fact from fiction here anymore.


Andrew is banned?


http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,23685.0.html

Yes, I am on this board every day and only found out yesterday!


Sorry to take this thread on a tangent, but I too just learned about AGD’s ban (in this thread), and I have to say it’s quite sad.  Since that AGD ban thread is locked, I'll just say here that it almost feels like kicking Mike out of the band. The guy who is imperfect to say the least, but does unquestionably have value to add. I get the reasons, maybe it had to happen, and granted - I'm not privy to PMs that apparently went on which sound like they were inappropriate - but it’s a big bummer regardless to people like myself, who are BB information sponges.

Just before I knew about this ban, about a week and a half ago, I randomly saw a California AGD license plate on a car parked at a mall, and I snapped a photo – I was waiting for the right moment to post it on this board. I guess now’s as good a time as any.



Apologies for the further tangental posting but I too just found out last night. The banning thread is closed and as I wanted to pass some comment this seems the only marginally acceptable place to make it. Ironic that it's one of those scholarly threads for which Andrew is held in such regard.

I spent the rest of the night and an hour this morning reading the thread about his banning and while I recognise some of the character traits being alluded to there I have to say that I've never received any of the emails/PMs that folk are describing. I don't doubt that such things were received: I'm only surprised to find out about it now because AGD and I shared views and opinions about certain individuals and if he had wanted to slander/libel folk I might have been a receptive naive target for such falsehoods as were hinted at - I should stress that I'm talking about certain Smiley board members here, his "fuckwits, shitweasels and trolls", not members of the band or any band member's family or associates).

I believe the Mods and Chuck when they say this was a considered and necessary step. I believe those who claim to have received the terrible PMs. I'm gutted at the circumstances of his banning.

Even so, the sum total of what AGD's given this board in the past adds up to more than most of us could ever hope to contribute and I share the hope that a probationary return might be contemplated in time, as the board is already lessened by his - and now Lee's - absence.
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« Reply #135 on: April 25, 2016, 11:07:00 PM »


...  the sum total of what AGD's given this board in the past adds up to more than most of us could ever hope to contribute and I share the hope that a probationary return might be contemplated in time, as the board is already lessened by his - and now Lee's - absence.


Very well stated. This thread is a prime example of why, despite his flaws, AGD, with his background knowledge and continuing research, is an essential component of the SS board. Hope he will be given a probationary return and that we'll see Lee Dempsey posting again as well.

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« Reply #136 on: April 26, 2016, 04:09:25 AM »

I think the pressure on Brian was from Brian; his drive to create, produce, compete, and "scare" the record buyer and record industry.
I think that's true as well.

Definitely, and I bet he put more pressure on  himself than anybody.  Stands to reason...he has always struck me as someone who cares more about others and their feelings than his own, and the thought of letting people down likely was anathema to him.

My impression is Brian cares about people like we all do but in regards to music he was the guy with the vision and sort of gently and politely ignored people's feelings because he already knew in his head where he was going and he knew they didn't.  Not intentionally insensitive but self driven and ignoring distractions from his vision.  Something like that.

I hope AGD was or is given a chance to face his accusers and give his side, I don't see any suggestion of it in the explanations. A little confused that AGD is accountable for supposed libel that he attributed to third parties and related in private.  Don't know what to say about the supposed bullying; I've been bullyed plenty on message boards but never once by Andrew in 20 some years of knowing him.
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« Reply #137 on: April 26, 2016, 06:59:36 AM »

AGD and Lee Dempsey are both gone? I also saw a reference that Mujan no longer posts.

Truly sad. The board will surely suffer as a result.
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« Reply #138 on: April 26, 2016, 10:49:21 AM »

I think the pressure on Brian was from Brian; his drive to create, produce, compete, and "scare" the record buyer and record industry.

This incident was also at the tail end of a calendar year ruled by The Beatles.  No doubt, Brian wanted to try ahead of the curve.
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« Reply #139 on: April 26, 2016, 11:24:57 AM »


...  the sum total of what AGD's given this board in the past adds up to more than most of us could ever hope to contribute and I share the hope that a probationary return might be contemplated in time, as the board is already lessened by his - and now Lee's - absence.


Very well stated. This thread is a prime example of why, despite his flaws, AGD, with his background knowledge and continuing research, is an essential component of the SS board. Hope he will be given a probationary return and that we'll see Lee Dempsey posting again as well.



I imagine that's why they hesitated so.long.to ban him.
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« Reply #140 on: April 26, 2016, 12:11:52 PM »

My personal hope is that after a sufficient cooling-off period, the mods and the owner of this board will consider a probationary reinstatement for AGD. Of course that is up to them, but that's my wish. On a scale of 1-10, Andrew's ability to suffer fools was hovering at about 0.4, but the key is to ignore 90% of the aggravating stuff that happens here.

As for "faking it" and doing good work after, this is indeed a murky point. But consider there was no interruption whatsoever in Brian's output after this incident. The problem is that shading the incident around words that kinda sorta cover the description of the episode ("nervous breakdown," "panic attack," "meltdown," "hysterical episode" et al) leaves us all a bit too much wiggle room to argue "definitively" through the type of "geometric logic" that got Humphrey Bogart's character into so much trouble in THE CAINE MUTINY.  Let's await further information/testimony and keep in mind that the obsessive search for "truth" sometimes has an unintended impact, which results in a great researcher being banned from a place where his contributions have been vast.

It could also be reasoned that Brian's output continued at the same pace because an immediate stressor was removed( the road) and another one soon would be.  (Murry). However the problems resurfaced because other stressors exacerbated the condition.  Treating the symptoms not the cause is a good explanation.

Well said.

Agree 100% about the stressor being removed allowing him to continue. I also agree there was no apparent interruption in output after the plane incident, however there would soon be a huge decline in output. Also, much more time went into albums like Pet Sounds, Smile, the GV single. The time frame and cost of GV is ample evidence of a man going in a direction beyond a perfectionist.

So, the thing Brian wanted out of the way, touring was out of the way and things in the studio didn't exactly become smoother.

Then Brian's life is made "easier" by bringing the studio to him right in his own house, again things didn't exactly become smoother.

Then with each album over the next few years Brian is less and less involved, thankfully the Beach Boys really blossomed and made some fine records.

Then Brian seemingly washes his hands of the whole thing over the next few years until a quack is brought in to save him and get him to do what everyone thinks he loves and wants to do again.

So in '76 a man with a shockingly gruff voice is finally recording again on 15BO and then Love You but it sure as heck does not seem to be the same guy anymore. He wasn't.

Nothing fake or exaggerated is needed. There is/was a clear trajectory that started after the plane incident. Street drugs and a number of other things contributed to Brian's life unfolding as it did but it is my firm belief that the biggest factor was the mental health issue plain and simple.
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« Reply #141 on: April 26, 2016, 01:00:41 PM »

Quote
I wonder if Mike thinks that Brian faked the airplane incident, which could be a reason why he claims to not recall it (as a way of not touching that minefield with a ten-foot pole). Come to think of it, I'm not sure I can recall one single incident of Mike actually speaking about Brian having mental/emotional problems.

As Mike seems to *always*, without question (as far as I know) publicly refer to Brian's struggles as *exclusively* drug-based, one might surmise that he either doesn't believe in the existence of mental illness being in part brought on as a result of people/circumstances/DNA (other than drugs), and/or thinks that Brian is putting on all of the time.

You could write a book on this subject alone.  The fact that Mike has been heard saying things like "self-inflicted problems" when referring to Brian hints that he doesn't buy into mental illness in general, even though he himself meditates, which is one type of stress therapy.  He was also quick to point out Brian's obesity during his most troubled times, which I interpret as Mike saying Brian's problems could be identified as simple things like eating disorders and lack of self-control.

Most damning to Mike was the way he was portrayed in Love and Mercy, when Brian was showing signs of extreme paranoia (the swimming pool scene) Mike was lecturing him about how was taking advantage of the group.  I found that part very interesting, as if they wanted to show how clueless the boys were when it came to Brian's troubles.



  
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« Reply #142 on: April 26, 2016, 01:04:43 PM »

Quote
The fact that Mike has been heard saying things like "self-inflicted problems" when referring to Brian hints that he doesn't buy into mental illness in general, even though he himself meditates, which is one type of stress therapy.

So, in his eyes, what caused his 'episode' while he was fasting? You know, the one he blamed on 'bad Wilson genes'?
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« Reply #143 on: April 26, 2016, 01:32:24 PM »

Quote
I wonder if Mike thinks that Brian faked the airplane incident, which could be a reason why he claims to not recall it (as a way of not touching that minefield with a ten-foot pole). Come to think of it, I'm not sure I can recall one single incident of Mike actually speaking about Brian having mental/emotional problems.

As Mike seems to *always*, without question (as far as I know) publicly refer to Brian's struggles as *exclusively* drug-based, one might surmise that he either doesn't believe in the existence of mental illness being in part brought on as a result of people/circumstances/DNA (other than drugs), and/or thinks that Brian is putting on all of the time.

You could write a book on this subject alone.  The fact that Mike has been heard saying things like "self-inflicted problems" when referring to Brian hints that he doesn't buy into mental illness in general, even though he himself meditates, which is one type of stress therapy.  He was also quick to point out Brian's obesity during his most troubled times, which I interpret as Mike saying Brian's problems could be identified as simple things like eating disorders and lack of self-control.

Most damning to Mike was the way he was portrayed in Love and Mercy, when Brian was showing signs of extreme paranoia (the swimming pool scene) Mike was lecturing him about how was taking advantage of the group.  I found that part very interesting, as if they wanted to show how clueless the boys were when it came to Brian's troubles.



   
I think Brian & Marilyn were unaware (Clueless is a bit harsh) of what exactly was going on, as well.
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On Stage As It Is In Studio,
Give Us This Day, Our Shortenin' Bread
And Forgive Us Our Bootlegs,
As We Also Have Forgiven Our Wife And Managers,
And Lead Us Not Into Kokomo,
But Deliver Us From Mike Love.
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« Reply #144 on: April 26, 2016, 01:49:55 PM »

Quote
I wonder if Mike thinks that Brian faked the airplane incident, which could be a reason why he claims to not recall it (as a way of not touching that minefield with a ten-foot pole). Come to think of it, I'm not sure I can recall one single incident of Mike actually speaking about Brian having mental/emotional problems.

As Mike seems to *always*, without question (as far as I know) publicly refer to Brian's struggles as *exclusively* drug-based, one might surmise that he either doesn't believe in the existence of mental illness being in part brought on as a result of people/circumstances/DNA (other than drugs), and/or thinks that Brian is putting on all of the time.

You could write a book on this subject alone.  The fact that Mike has been heard saying things like "self-inflicted problems" when referring to Brian hints that he doesn't buy into mental illness in general, even though he himself meditates, which is one type of stress therapy.  He was also quick to point out Brian's obesity during his most troubled times, which I interpret as Mike saying Brian's problems could be identified as simple things like eating disorders and lack of self-control.

Most damning to Mike was the way he was portrayed in Love and Mercy, when Brian was showing signs of extreme paranoia (the swimming pool scene) Mike was lecturing him about how was taking advantage of the group.  I found that part very interesting, as if they wanted to show how clueless the boys were when it came to Brian's troubles.
 
   
I think Brian & Marilyn were unaware (Clueless is a bit harsh) of what exactly was going on, as well.

Yeah, and I can forgive people for being unaware decades earlier, before more information on the subject of mental illness became publicly known. It's when decades later, that the same seemingly aloof attitude to mental illness is still publicly propagated by one guy in particular, that it becomes more than a bit hard to swallow.
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« Reply #145 on: April 26, 2016, 01:53:24 PM »

Quote
The fact that Mike has been heard saying things like "self-inflicted problems" when referring to Brian hints that he doesn't buy into mental illness in general, even though he himself meditates, which is one type of stress therapy.

So, in his eyes, what caused his 'episode' while he was fasting? You know, the one he blamed on 'bad Wilson genes'?

Mike probably wants everyone to forget this incident ever happened, lest he himself be thought of by people as being *capable* of having had a breakdown like his cousins. As though this was a sign of "weakness" and is something to be ashamed about.  Undecided Luckily for him, only the hardcore fans even know about this, and I don't imagine this incident will be mentioned in the book.
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« Reply #146 on: April 26, 2016, 03:25:19 PM »

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The fact that Mike has been heard saying things like "self-inflicted problems" when referring to Brian hints that he doesn't buy into mental illness in general, even though he himself meditates, which is one type of stress therapy.

So, in his eyes, what caused his 'episode' while he was fasting? You know, the one he blamed on 'bad Wilson genes'?

Self-inflicted Hypoglycemia?
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« Reply #147 on: April 26, 2016, 04:48:46 PM »

Quote
I wonder if Mike thinks that Brian faked the airplane incident, which could be a reason why he claims to not recall it (as a way of not touching that minefield with a ten-foot pole). Come to think of it, I'm not sure I can recall one single incident of Mike actually speaking about Brian having mental/emotional problems.

As Mike seems to *always*, without question (as far as I know) publicly refer to Brian's struggles as *exclusively* drug-based, one might surmise that he either doesn't believe in the existence of mental illness being in part brought on as a result of people/circumstances/DNA (other than drugs), and/or thinks that Brian is putting on all of the time.

You could write a book on this subject alone.  The fact that Mike has been heard saying things like "self-inflicted problems" when referring to Brian hints that he doesn't buy into mental illness in general, even though he himself meditates, which is one type of stress therapy.  He was also quick to point out Brian's obesity during his most troubled times, which I interpret as Mike saying Brian's problems could be identified as simple things like eating disorders and lack of self-control.

Most damning to Mike was the way he was portrayed in Love and Mercy, when Brian was showing signs of extreme paranoia (the swimming pool scene) Mike was lecturing him about how was taking advantage of the group.  I found that part very interesting, as if they wanted to show how clueless the boys were when it came to Brian's troubles.
 
   
I think Brian & Marilyn were unaware (Clueless is a bit harsh) of what exactly was going on, as well.

Yeah, and I can forgive people for being unaware decades earlier, before more information on the subject of mental illness became publicly known. It's when decades later, that the same seemingly aloof attitude to mental illness is still publicly propagated by one guy in particular, that it becomes more than a bit hard to swallow.
I absolutely agree with you there. After all these years and Brian being properly diagnosed, Mike is way off base in his thinking.
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Oh Brian
Thou Art In Hawthorne,
Harmonied Be Thy name
Your Kingdom Come,
Your Steak Well Done,
On Stage As It Is In Studio,
Give Us This Day, Our Shortenin' Bread
And Forgive Us Our Bootlegs,
As We Also Have Forgiven Our Wife And Managers,
And Lead Us Not Into Kokomo,
But Deliver Us From Mike Love.
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« Reply #148 on: May 03, 2016, 10:13:53 AM »

I've always been curios about the day that Brian had his"nervous breakdown". What went on earlier in the day? Did some kind of argument set Brian off? Was it a particularly stressful day?

One source I read...darned if I can remember which one...said that Marilyn earlier in the day could tell that Brian wasn't in the best mental shape, so just as a joke and to try to take his mind off whatever was bothering him, she and Mike play-flirted just to try to make Brian laugh or something, and he took it in an unintended way. Apparently part of his breakdown involved screaming "She doesn't love me!" (I know *THAT* line was portrayed in the 1990 made-for-TV movie, but I know I've read it elsewhere as well).
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« Reply #149 on: May 03, 2016, 11:27:33 AM »

The whole Marilyn-Mike incident was before the earlier Australia trip, allegedly he consequently telegrammed her from the plane and called and proposed upon arrival in Australia.
The "1964 incident" discussed in this thread is the Houston flight panic attack.
Separate incidents but clearly in the months before the panic attack he was suffering from elevated anxiety.
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