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Author Topic: The December 1964 event.  (Read 13356 times)
Andrew G. Doe
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« on: April 16, 2016, 12:09:06 AM »

Need your help people. As is well known, Brian cracked up on a plane from LA to Houston on 12/23/64, played the gig that night then flew home, being replaced by Glen for the Dallas gig on the 26th.

However, two recent discoveries have cast some doubt on this long-held supposition. One, The tireless Ian Rusten uncovered a cancelled show in Little Rock AK on the 20th, while the equally redoubtable Jim Murphy found a ticket stub (note, a stub) for a 12/22 Dallas show. Now, there certainly was a Dallas show on 12/26 - Glen's first - so unless they played two shows at the same venue within five days, and the ticket was certainly used, the locical assumption is that it was honored for the rearranged date. Put this together with the cancelled gig on the 20th and it's looking possible that the Tulsa show on the 19th wasn't originally a one-off but the first of a short tour of the southwest. Thus:

19 - Assembly Center Arena, Tulsa, OK
20 - Little Rock Auditorium, Little Rock AR* [cancelled]
22 - Memorial Auditorium, Dallas TX* [postponed to the 26th ?]

23 - Music Hall, Houston TX
26 - Memorial Auditorium, Dallas TX

So, just shooting the breeze... were those shows cancelled because Brian was showing signs of strain ? Was the flight from Tulsa to Houston, not from LA ?  Did the band indeed fly back to LA from Tulsa, then on to Houston ? And does it really matter ?  Grin
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« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2016, 12:58:04 AM »

Need your help people. As is well known, Brian cracked up on a plane from LA to Houston on 12/23/64, played the gig that night then flew home, being replaced by Glen for the Dallas gig on the 26th.

However, two recent discoveries have cast some doubt on this long-held supposition. One, The tireless Ian Rusten uncovered a cancelled show in Little Rock AK on the 20th, while the equally redoubtable Jim Murphy found a ticket stub (note, a stub) for a 12/22 Dallas show. Now, there certainly was a Dallas show on 12/26 - Glen's first - so unless they played two shows at the same venue within five days, and the ticket was certainly used, the locical assumption is that it was honored for the rearranged date. Put this together with the cancelled gig on the 20th and it's looking possible that the Tulsa show on the 19th wasn't originally a one-off but the first of a short tour of the southwest. Thus:

19 - Assembly Center Arena, Tulsa, OK
20 - Little Rock Auditorium, Little Rock AR* [cancelled]
22 - Memorial Auditorium, Dallas TX* [postponed to the 26th ?]

23 - Music Hall, Houston TX
26 - Memorial Auditorium, Dallas TX

So, just shooting the breeze... were those shows cancelled because Brian was showing signs of strain ? Was the flight from Tulsa to Houston, not from LA ?  Did the band indeed fly back to LA from Tulsa, then on to Houston ? And does it really matter ?  Grin

I obviously don't know what exactly transpired, but yes, it does matter, because it's BB history, and I love this kind of research! Thanks to Mr. Rustin, Mr. Murphy, and Mr. Doe.

So I'm wondering, do we know for sure that BW actually appeared at the 12/23 show, or that it took place? For these various appearances, what specifically do the newspaper ads/reviews and radio station surveys (if available) indicate? And congrats to Jim Murphy for somehow coming across a ticket stub to a 12/22 show in Dallas!

And yes, this does look like a short tour of the southwest, which makes a whole lot more sense than a one-off in Tulsa, Oklahoma.


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Andrew G. Doe
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« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2016, 01:44:02 AM »

So I'm wondering, do we know for sure that BW actually appeared at the 12/23 show, or that it took place?

Yes, we do... or rather, Ian does, and if he says it happened, it happened. I've not said this publicly before, but it's rare that a week goes by without at least one email from him bearing the latest fruits of his ongoing research. That some of these missives are swiftly - indeed, at times almost instantly - followed by another saying, in essence, "forget that, it never happened" tells you just what a sterling researcher he is, not afraid to admit he's got it wrong. Like all the very best historians, he's in it for the accuracy, not the ego massage. It's Ian who makes the 10452 concert listings the single best repository of such data. Accept no inferior imitations.

To answer your question more exactly, a few months later Brian related the incident to Earl Leaf.

Also, an amended timeline:

19 - Assembly Center Arena, Tulsa, OK
20 - Little Rock Auditorium, Little Rock AR* [cancelled]
22 - Memorial Auditorium, Dallas TX* [postponed to the 26th ?]

23 - Music Hall, Houston TX
25 - Memphis TN [cancelled]
26 - Memorial Auditorium, Dallas TX
« Last Edit: April 16, 2016, 02:23:05 AM by Andrew G. Doe » Logged

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MrRobinsonsFather
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« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2016, 03:15:20 AM »

Wish I could help. My guess is it was cancelled because of that reason. Would these dates cross with the story Brian told about being in the hotel room telling the guys he won't be able to tour anymore.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2016, 03:16:53 AM by MrRobinsonsFather » Logged
Cam Mott
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« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2016, 04:08:50 AM »

Not sure how helpful but there is a concert eye witness, Ron Foster:

http://www.houstonpress.com/music/shored-up-6564082
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Andrew G. Doe
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« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2016, 04:14:02 AM »

Wish I could help. My guess is it was cancelled because of that reason. Would these dates cross with the story Brian told about being in the hotel room telling the guys he won't be able to tour anymore.

I've always know that as him telling them during the January 1965 Today ! sessions.

Not sure how helpful but there is a concert eye witness, Ron Foster:

http://www.houstonpress.com/music/shored-up-6564082

Thanks.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2016, 04:18:30 AM by Andrew G. Doe » Logged

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Cam Mott
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« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2016, 04:35:46 AM »

Wish I could help. My guess is it was cancelled because of that reason. Would these dates cross with the story Brian told about being in the hotel room telling the guys he won't be able to tour anymore.

I've always know that as him telling them during the January 1965 Today ! sessions.

Not sure how helpful but there is a concert eye witness, Ron Foster:

http://www.houstonpress.com/music/shored-up-6564082


Thanks.

FWIIW, I believe I also have a ticket for that 22nd Dallas show which I think I got on eBay. I remember it as a whole ticket, not a stub, but my memory might be playing tricks (I'll try and find it).
« Last Edit: April 16, 2016, 04:36:42 AM by Cam Mott » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2016, 04:53:02 AM »

Ok so to be 100% accurate the situation is this: the December 19 1964 Tulsa show was confirmed by an advertisement I found in the Tulsa newspaper that day.  However Tulsa papers did not review or write about rock shows in those days and I can't 100% say it took place ( meaning it could have been canceled but no notice of cancellation can be found in the newspaper). Recently I discovered an ad for the little rock show on December 20. The newspaper doesn't say it was canceled but when advertising a show in little rock on February 4 1965 the paper states that tickets for a canceled show will be honored. So putting two and two together: little rock show on December 20 canceled and tickets honored at show on February 4. Now Keith badmans book listed two nights in Houston and a show in Dallas with dates of December 23, 24 and 26. As you all know his book is riddled with errors of date and venue. So when I did my book I went and researched every date he listed for accuracy.  Unfortunately for us all the Houston and Dallas newspapers (and I checked both major papers in each city) ignored the shows. They didn't advertise them or review them. Now we have lots of people who confirm the Houston show took place and the Dallas papers have some passing mentions in late December of the recent Dallas show without dating it. So the two shows are confirmed as taking place but where badman got those dates is a mystery. I have advertisements and some reviews or photos for every show after that-beginning with Omaha on December 27 1964. So what is an absolute fact is that the bbs were in Omaha with glen Campbell on December 27. If you get my drift here-other than badmans dating the two Texas dates could be December 21 and 22. So a radical but perhaps logical rethink would be to throw out badmans unconfirmable dates and say bbs fly to Tulsa on December 19.  Brian is not happy and little rock show on December 20 is canceled. Tulsa to Houston flight is break down. December 21 Brian gets it together and plays Houston gig. December 22 Brian goes home and glen joins bbs for December 22 Dallas show. The band goes home for Christmas and than flys to Omaha with glen for second leg of the tour on December 27. This makes sense to me. I've always questioned the band staying on the road over Christmas. They never did it again.
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Andrew G. Doe
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« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2016, 05:03:31 AM »

Ok so to be 100% accurate the situation is this: the December 19 1964 Tulsa show was confirmed by an advertisement I found in the Tulsa newspaper that day.  However Tulsa papers did not review or write about rock shows in those days and I can't 100% say it took place ( meaning it could have been canceled but no notice of cancellation can be found in the newspaper). Recently I discovered an ad for the little rock show on December 20. The newspaper doesn't say it was canceled but when advertising a show in little rock on February 4 1965 the paper states that tickets for a canceled show will be honored. So putting two and two together: little rock show on December 20 canceled and tickets honored at show on February 4. Now Keith badmans book listed two nights in Houston and a show in Dallas with dates of December 23, 24 and 26. As you all know his book is riddled with errors of date and venue. So when I did my book I went and researched every date he listed for accuracy.  Unfortunately for us all the Houston and Dallas newspapers (and I checked both major papers in each city) ignored the shows. They didn't advertise them or review them. Now we have lots of people who confirm the Houston show took place and the Dallas papers have some passing mentions in late December of the recent Dallas show without dating it. So the two shows are confirmed as taking place but where badman got those dates is a mystery. I have advertisements and some reviews or photos for every show after that-beginning with Omaha on December 27 1964. So what is an absolute fact is that the bbs were in Omaha with glen Campbell on December 27. If you get my drift here-other than badmans dating the two Texas dates could be December 21 and 22. So a radical but perhaps logical rethink would be to throw out badmans unconfirmable dates and say bbs fly to Tulsa on December 19.  Brian is not happy and little rock show on December 20 is canceled. Tulsa to Houston flight is break down. December 21 Brian gets it together and plays Houston gig. December 22 Brian goes home and glen joins bbs for December 22 Dallas show. The band goes home for Christmas and than flys to Omaha with glen for second leg of the tour on December 27. This makes sense to me. I've always questioned the band staying on the road over Christmas. They never did it again.

So... what of the 12/26 Dallas show ? Another Badmanism ? From my brief interaction with him, I got the distinct impression that he simply accepted what his researchers handed him and put it in the book.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2016, 05:06:46 AM by Andrew G. Doe » Logged

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Ian
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« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2016, 05:21:45 AM »

Roger that. Badman listed the Dallas date and as I knew the bbs tour continued with glen on December 27 I accepted it as gospel. But the more I think about it the more my rethink makes much more logical sense. Especially when the only thing causing us to reject the Dallas ticket stub is badmans dating
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Ian
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« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2016, 08:28:43 AM »

For instance I have an article from a December 20 1964 Denton TX paper mentioning that some local kids have won tickets to the BBs Dallas show. It doesn't say when the show is-but there is no reason the show couldn't be December 22-especially when we have the ticket.
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« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2016, 09:21:18 AM »

So, Ian, is there no actual evidence of the Houston show occurring on the 23rd? If I'm following along properly, you seem to be suggesting that it was on the 21st, which would support a revised timeline for Brian's incident--is that right? This scenario certainly makes more logical sense...but wasn't there also something about Brian being wigged out when leaving LA because Marilyn was supposedly "making eyes" at Mike? Or is that simply "urban legend"?
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« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2016, 09:36:50 AM »

...but wasn't there also something about Brian being wigged out when leaving LA because Marilyn was supposedly "making eyes" at Mike? Or is that simply "urban legend"?

I always wondered about that, too. Where or from whom did the Marilyn "making eyes" at Mike story originate? I mean, Brian and Marilyn just got married two weeks previously!

As far as Brian having "a breakdown" on the plane, I saw an interview with Marilyn where she questioned that description.

But, this is The Beach Boys, and I believe there are stories (from Brian?) of Dennis sleeping with all of the guys' wives. And, of course, there is the story of Brian having an affair with his sister-in-law - while he was still married to Marilyn.
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Ian
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« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2016, 09:39:31 AM »

Right as far as I can ascertain there is nothing tying Houston to December 23 other than Keith badman. Again I'm not precious about this-if badmans date is proven right than hallelujah! I'd love if someone pops up on the net someday with a ticket, poster or photo from that night but I'm not holding my breath. By the way if you look at badmans book he has them playing two nights in Houston. I just seriously doubt that. He had the second night being glens first show. But in all the interviews I've seen glen says his first show was Dallas. So there seem to be some errors there. And with all due respect to Keith badman I've spent a lot more time than I think he did poring through Texas papers from December 64 and I can't find a thing to support his specific  dates.
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Ian
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« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2016, 09:42:20 AM »

In terms of the specific Houston article that was posted in this thread you'll notice it has a glaring error. Bbs weren't in Australia in November 64 . They were there in January 1964
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Ian
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« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2016, 09:46:29 AM »

By the way a date change doesn't invalidate that story. So about to board the plane to Tulsa that incident happened. Brian in a weird mood. Two days later on next plane he wigs out.
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Debbie KL
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« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2016, 10:29:33 AM »

I guess I'm replying to the "does it matter?" comment.  To me the primary issue was that Brian was under horrendous pressure to produce that massive amount of product while also touring.  Anyone would crack under that kind of pressure. 

The details blur over the years, and as far as I'm concerned, they don't matter at all.  The fact that this thread somehow devolved into sh*tty little gossip items we've all heard many times before tells me that getting caught up in silly details is a waste of time and an opportunity for the same old nasty, gossipy crap that appears here that couldn't possibly matter at this point.
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Ian
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« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2016, 10:44:43 AM »

well-I agree and disagree-I don't think the gossip matters but I do think that accuracy is always welcome.  If a date can be pinned down and the story placed in proper context that is good.  If the date was December 21 not 23 I agree that the world won't stop spinning to applaud-but it doesn't mean that it should't be changed.  Personally I think it adds to the story.  For example-in Keith Badman's book he was not able to pinpoint a lot of shows before the deadline doom-but in my book (with Jon) I was able to document many of the ones he missed.  Looking at Keith's book-you can't help but say-"Gosh Brian wasn't under that much pressure" but when you see mine-with all the additional shows-you might say "gosh, those guys must have been exhausted." Context matters-but gossip doesn't.  Indeed when I wrote my book I left out a lot of salacious stories that musicians, promoters and confidantes shared-I just didn't want to go there.  But Brian's breakdown affected the band in a big way-so it has to be told.
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Ian
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« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2016, 10:53:17 AM »

That reminds me of the time I was on the web and saw a timeline with summer 1962 the BBs play their first 40 City U.S. Tour.  Well I think that an inaccuracy like that should be corrected.  It was just typical laziness-one person wrote it in a book and 600 lazy writers copy that fact-till it is  gospel. It's a small matter-but it all adds up to making the story accurate.
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Debbie KL
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« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2016, 11:03:58 AM »

well-I agree and disagree-I don't think the gossip matters but I do think that accuracy is always welcome.  If a date can be pinned down and the story placed in proper context that is good.  If the date was December 21 not 23 I agree that the world won't stop spinning to applaud-but it doesn't mean that it should't be changed.  Personally I think it adds to the story.  For example-in Keith Badman's book he was not able to pinpoint a lot of shows before the deadline doom-but in my book (with Jon) I was able to document many of the ones he missed.  Looking at Keith's book-you can't help but say-"Gosh Brian wasn't under that much pressure" but when you see mine-with all the additional shows-you might say "gosh, those guys must have been exhausted." Context matters-but gossip doesn't.  Indeed when I wrote my book I left out a lot of salacious stories that musicians, promoters and confidantes shared-I just didn't want to go there.  But Brian's breakdown affected the band in a big way-so it has to be told.

I get it that this is important to some people who spend their lives researching this minutiae, for the people who actually lived it, I think, not so much.
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« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2016, 11:18:52 AM »

That reminds me of the time I was on the web and saw a timeline with summer 1962 the BBs play their first 40 City U.S. Tour.  Well I think that an inaccuracy like that should be corrected.  It was just typical laziness-one person wrote it in a book and 600 lazy writers copy that fact-till it is  gospel. It's a small matter-but it all adds up to making the story accurate.
I can remember debunking the 1962 US Midwest Tour while researching the David Marks book, which came out in 2007 ( think I initially nailed down the correct tour timeline in about 2005)...making it the first BB's book to point out that there was no BB's Midwest tour until spring 1963. I'd always been suspicious of that '62 tour claim, even when Brian endorsed the occurrence of a '62 tour in his 1991 book, and of course Badman copied and pasted that info in his book too. But WTF ...common sense...there was no way they were doing 40 dates on the road before they'd even had a top-ten hit or played many local gigs. Of course Dave's family's diaries, logs, and his own recollections finally put that mistake to bed. Only took 45 years to get the info right in one of their books.
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mikeddonn
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« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2016, 11:22:44 AM »

I guess I'm replying to the "does it matter?" comment.  To me the primary issue was that Brian was under horrendous pressure to produce that massive amount of product while also touring.  Anyone would crack under that kind of pressure. 

The details blur over the years, and as far as I'm concerned, they don't matter at all.  The fact that this thread somehow devolved into sh*tty little gossip items we've all heard many times before tells me that getting caught up in silly details is a waste of time and an opportunity for the same old nasty, gossipy crap that appears here that couldn't possibly matter at this point.

I don't see any gossip on here.  Ian and people like him documenting this stuff helps separate fact from fiction.

Dennis said on the American Band DVD, he remembers Brian crying one morning in Houston, Texas FWIW.

How much fact or fiction will be in Brian or Mike's new books?  I'm glad we have folk like Ian, AGD and Jon to check these things out or else we might still think Brian didn't leave bed for three and a half years!
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« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2016, 11:55:25 AM »

I guess I'm replying to the "does it matter?" comment.  To me the primary issue was that Brian was under horrendous pressure to produce that massive amount of product while also touring.  Anyone would crack under that kind of pressure.  

The details blur over the years, and as far as I'm concerned, they don't matter at all.  The fact that this thread somehow devolved into sh*tty little gossip items we've all heard many times before tells me that getting caught up in silly details is a waste of time and an opportunity for the same old nasty, gossipy crap that appears here that couldn't possibly matter at this point.

I don't see any gossip on here.  Ian and people like him documenting this stuff helps separate fact from fiction.

Dennis said on the American Band DVD, he remembers Brian crying one morning in Houston, Texas FWIW.

How much fact or fiction will be in Brian or Mike's new books?  I'm glad we have folk like Ian, AGD and Jon to check these things out or else we might still think Brian didn't leave bed for three and a half years!

Please see Sheriff John Stone's comments above.  What else would you call that aside from gossip?  I wasn't calling the minutiae gossip, simply noting that it can often obscure the truths in life, rather than reveal them, and open the door for such gossipy comments in an environment like this one.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2016, 12:09:57 PM by Debbie KL » Logged
Ian
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« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2016, 12:22:53 PM »

I don't think you can blame the sheriff for that. All of this stuff was discussed in nick Kent and Steven gaines and the bbs themselves over shared in the famous pieces for rolling stone in 1971 and 1976
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« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2016, 12:39:16 PM »

I guess I'm replying to the "does it matter?" comment.  To me the primary issue was that Brian was under horrendous pressure to produce that massive amount of product while also touring.  Anyone would crack under that kind of pressure.  

The details blur over the years, and as far as I'm concerned, they don't matter at all.  The fact that this thread somehow devolved into sh*tty little gossip items we've all heard many times before tells me that getting caught up in silly details is a waste of time and an opportunity for the same old nasty, gossipy crap that appears here that couldn't possibly matter at this point.

I don't see any gossip on here.  Ian and people like him documenting this stuff helps separate fact from fiction.

Dennis said on the American Band DVD, he remembers Brian crying one morning in Houston, Texas FWIW.

How much fact or fiction will be in Brian or Mike's new books?  I'm glad we have folk like Ian, AGD and Jon to check these things out or else we might still think Brian didn't leave bed for three and a half years!

Please see Sheriff John Stone's comments above.  What else would you call that aside from gossip?  I wasn't calling the minutiae gossip, simply noting that it can often obscure the truths in life, rather than reveal them, and open the door for such gossipy comments in an environment like this one.

You said the thread had devolved into sh***y little gossip items, but it hadn't.

If one looks hard enough for agendas they will find them. I just took SJS's comments to mean there have been many mistruths told over the years it is good to have them debunked.  Many of those mistruths have been promulgated by the group members themselves over the years because it suited them at the time.
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