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filledeplage
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« Reply #25 on: April 08, 2016, 01:40:46 PM »

The academic calendar is convenient for parents raising children.   Wink 

How so?

If you teach from September to June, in grades Pre-K-12, your children, when in school are on the same schedule. In higher ed, classes generally finish in May.  Generally you are on similar vacation schedules, as well. 

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Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2016, 01:43:53 PM »

The academic calendar is convenient for parents raising children.   Wink 

How so?

If you teach from September to June, in grades Pre-K-12, your children, when in school are on the same schedule. In higher ed, classes generally finish in May.  Generally you are on similar vacation schedules, as well. 



That's not my experience but maybe things are different here. For one, the school that I work at which is a fairly major institution, has classes all year long. But at schools that I have worked at that don't have that structure, the professors are still required to spend two terms teaching while spending a third term doing research, which means working the whole year.
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filledeplage
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« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2016, 01:52:04 PM »

The academic calendar is convenient for parents raising children.   Wink 

How so?

If you teach from September to June, in grades Pre-K-12, your children, when in school are on the same schedule. In higher ed, classes generally finish in May.  Generally you are on similar vacation schedules, as well. 



That's not my experience but maybe things are different here. For one, the school that I work at which is a fairly major institution, has classes all year long. But at schools that I have worked at that don't have that structure, the professors are still required to spend two terms teaching while spending a third term doing research, which means working the whole year.
Are they on a trimester schedule? 

Most US schools are September to June, with a week for Christmas, and week-long breaks in February and April.  The academic calendar is usually 185 days for PreK to 12. 
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Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2016, 01:57:04 PM »

The academic calendar is convenient for parents raising children.   Wink  

How so?

If you teach from September to June, in grades Pre-K-12, your children, when in school are on the same schedule. In higher ed, classes generally finish in May.  Generally you are on similar vacation schedules, as well.  



That's not my experience but maybe things are different here. For one, the school that I work at which is a fairly major institution, has classes all year long. But at schools that I have worked at that don't have that structure, the professors are still required to spend two terms teaching while spending a third term doing research, which means working the whole year.
Are they on a trimester schedule?  

Most US schools are September to June, with a week for Christmas, and week-long breaks in February and April.  The academic calendar is usually 185 days for PreK to 12.  

I am talking about the schedule for professors. Your wording made me think that that's who you were talking about when you mentioned being a professor and the "academic calendar."
« Last Edit: April 08, 2016, 01:59:35 PM by Chocolate Shake Man » Logged
filledeplage
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« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2016, 02:23:05 PM »

The academic calendar is convenient for parents raising children.   Wink  

How so?

If you teach from September to June, in grades Pre-K-12, your children, when in school are on the same schedule. In higher ed, classes generally finish in May.  Generally you are on similar vacation schedules, as well.  



That's not my experience but maybe things are different here. For one, the school that I work at which is a fairly major institution, has classes all year long. But at schools that I have worked at that don't have that structure, the professors are still required to spend two terms teaching while spending a third term doing research, which means working the whole year.
Are they on a trimester schedule?  

Most US schools are September to June, with a week for Christmas, and week-long breaks in February and April.  The academic calendar is usually 185 days for PreK to 12.  

I am talking about the schedule for professors. Your wording made me think that that's who you were talking about when you mentioned being a professor and the "academic calendar."
Most professors depending on their status, follow the student calendar.  Depending on where they teach, will take sabbaticals to work on research or work on a book. 

If you are teaching Pre-K12, many take professional development in a college or a university to maintain credentials, so that schedule is generally concurrent to the school systems.

We have many colleges and universities that run summer programs for high school students and will use the dorms and facilities when the college students leave for the summer.  And most will also offer summer programs for grad and undergrad but not always taught by regular faculty but by adjuncts.  Regular faculty sometimes want to augment their salaries and teach a summer course or two.   
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Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #30 on: April 08, 2016, 02:33:06 PM »

Most professors depending on their status, follow the student calendar.  Depending on where they teach, will take sabbaticals to work on research or work on a book. 

I'd be curious to hear from others in academia because, again, that's not my experience. Yes, there will be the occasional sabbatical, but that's not enough time for the amount of publishing required from tenure-track professors.
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Emily
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« Reply #31 on: April 08, 2016, 03:56:12 PM »


Emily - When I look around, and see others who did not have the opportunity to go to college and grad school, I feel it was a great gift, that I did not take lightly - #1.  (My grand aunt went to law school when it was only for the "boys.")

And, I felt "privileged" to be a classroom teacher - #2.  Most of the kids I taught were very poor and whose families had less than mine.  And, I felt privileged to study law; it is a different lens and filter.  An education is a gift.  It is the equalizer in life for that #3.

You might enjoy being a professor and a doctorate in history is the ticket, but we don't have to have the same occupation, our whole lives.  

The academic calendar is convenient for parents raising children.   Wink  
While I consider an education a right that is denied some, rather than a gift that is given others, and for middle class people it's not a special opportunity, so among the middle class it doesn't really meet the definition of 'privilege', I laud you for your education and your work in education.
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Emily
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« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2016, 04:00:31 PM »

Most professors depending on their status, follow the student calendar.  Depending on where they teach, will take sabbaticals to work on research or work on a book.  

I'd be curious to hear from others in academia because, again, that's not my experience. Yes, there will be the occasional sabbatical, but that's not enough time for the amount of publishing required from tenure-track professors.
My father, aunt, uncle, brother and sister-in-law, all professors, work/ed year-round and very long hours. One benefit is they had slightly more flexible schedules than office work, but there's no leaving your work at the office. I've never known any of them to have a non-working vacation.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2016, 04:07:21 PM by Emily » Logged
Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2016, 04:17:35 PM »

Most professors depending on their status, follow the student calendar.  Depending on where they teach, will take sabbaticals to work on research or work on a book.  

I'd be curious to hear from others in academia because, again, that's not my experience. Yes, there will be the occasional sabbatical, but that's not enough time for the amount of publishing required from tenure-track professors.
My father, aunt, uncle, brother and sister-in-law, all professors, work/ed year-round and very long hours. One benefit is they had slightly more flexible schedules than office work, but there's no leaving your work at the office. I've never known any of them to have a non-working vacation.

Thanks Emily. That's the experience that I'm aware of as well.
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Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #34 on: April 08, 2016, 08:35:22 PM »

Just in case the above has caused some confusion, I do want to make it clear that when I am discussing my experiences, I'm not referring to my own personal experiences as a professor, but rather my experiences in academia talking to many professors about their own experiences and job requirements. While I have worked for several years as a course instructor, I cannot call myself a professor until I actually get a tenure-track position. I just wanted to put that out there lest anyone think that I'm getting too big for my britches. Particularly since I don't even know what britches are.
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Emily
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« Reply #35 on: April 08, 2016, 09:12:25 PM »

Just in case the above has caused some confusion, I do want to make it clear that when I am discussing my experiences, I'm not referring to my own personal experiences as a professor, but rather my experiences in academia talking to many professors about their own experiences and job requirements. While I have worked for several years as a course instructor, I cannot call myself a professor until I actually get a tenure-track position. I just wanted to put that out there lest anyone think that I'm getting too big for my britches. Particularly since I don't even know what britches are.
Breeches, pronounced 'britches', are horse riding pants. Lay off the doughnuts and you won't have a problem.
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Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #36 on: April 08, 2016, 09:18:33 PM »

Just in case the above has caused some confusion, I do want to make it clear that when I am discussing my experiences, I'm not referring to my own personal experiences as a professor, but rather my experiences in academia talking to many professors about their own experiences and job requirements. While I have worked for several years as a course instructor, I cannot call myself a professor until I actually get a tenure-track position. I just wanted to put that out there lest anyone think that I'm getting too big for my britches. Particularly since I don't even know what britches are.
Breeches, pronounced 'britches', are horse riding pants. Lay off the doughnuts and you won't have a problem.

Good Lord, I didn't even get the spelling of the word right? No wonder I haven't got that tenure-track position yet...
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Emily
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« Reply #37 on: April 08, 2016, 09:24:24 PM »

Just in case the above has caused some confusion, I do want to make it clear that when I am discussing my experiences, I'm not referring to my own personal experiences as a professor, but rather my experiences in academia talking to many professors about their own experiences and job requirements. While I have worked for several years as a course instructor, I cannot call myself a professor until I actually get a tenure-track position. I just wanted to put that out there lest anyone think that I'm getting too big for my britches. Particularly since I don't even know what britches are.
Breeches, pronounced 'britches', are horse riding pants. Lay off the doughnuts and you won't have a problem.

Good Lord, I didn't even get the spelling of the word right? No wonder I haven't got that tenure-track position yet...
I only know because I'm a horse person. it's not book larnin.
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filledeplage
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« Reply #38 on: April 09, 2016, 06:19:24 AM »

Most professors depending on their status, follow the student calendar.  Depending on where they teach, will take sabbaticals to work on research or work on a book.  

I'd be curious to hear from others in academia because, again, that's not my experience. Yes, there will be the occasional sabbatical, but that's not enough time for the amount of publishing required from tenure-track professors.
My father, aunt, uncle, brother and sister-in-law, all professors, work/ed year-round and very long hours. One benefit is they had slightly more flexible schedules than office work, but there's no leaving your work at the office. I've never known any of them to have a non-working vacation.
Emily - that is not what the students see when the individual professors offices close after the Spring semester exams.  They are gone until the Fall unless they are teaching  summer course and their snail mail piles up until they physically get back to collect it.  Some do work at home on books which is a continual work-in-progress and some go abroad for research or study.  Their offices are locked.  What the student sees is different from what the aspiring professor or adjunct or even full professor does.  One of mine would take a year off to write. 

A cousin who just retired, as a professor, would take a semester off, teach ESL abroad to "earn her keep" at whatever university she was at and work on her book.  So from the student perspective they area unavailable after fall and spring.  I did undergrad differently.  I did a trimester which ran all year and professors for required course would alternate summers off and get a spring semester or fall semester off.  That is long gone.  People can still cobble a "trimester" schedule for themselves so long as they meet the required courses in their discipline and take their electives in the summer with either visiting professors or part-time faculty or the full-time, if they were choosing to moonlight (as many did for the extra dough.) Now with online teaching and learning things might be more flexible with a brick-and-mortar setting not always necessary. 

It is not black and white but it is rare to see a full-professor or even an associate professor hanging around the campus after the traditional academic calendar has finished in the spring. (They might be working hard, but we don't see that.) 

It worked out wonderfully well, for me to be free over Christmas, February and April vacations to get my highly-scheduled kids off-the-grid and go to Disneyworld or some other fun place to de-stress ourselves and unplug for some fun sibling time so they could reconnect without distractions.  Teaching in a school system (if you really love kids) is a great gig.  Wink
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Emily
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« Reply #39 on: April 09, 2016, 09:28:00 AM »

Most professors depending on their status, follow the student calendar.  Depending on where they teach, will take sabbaticals to work on research or work on a book.  

I'd be curious to hear from others in academia because, again, that's not my experience. Yes, there will be the occasional sabbatical, but that's not enough time for the amount of publishing required from tenure-track professors.
My father, aunt, uncle, brother and sister-in-law, all professors, work/ed year-round and very long hours. One benefit is they had slightly more flexible schedules than office work, but there's no leaving your work at the office. I've never known any of them to have a non-working vacation.
Emily - that is not what the students see when the individual professors offices close after the Spring semester exams.  They are gone until the Fall unless they are teaching  summer course and their snail mail piles up until they physically get back to collect it.  Some do work at home on books which is a continual work-in-progress and some go abroad for research or study.  Their offices are locked.  What the student sees is different from what the aspiring professor or adjunct or even full professor does.  One of mine would take a year off to write. 

A cousin who just retired, as a professor, would take a semester off, teach ESL abroad to "earn her keep" at whatever university she was at and work on her book.  So from the student perspective they area unavailable after fall and spring.  I did undergrad differently.  I did a trimester which ran all year and professors for required course would alternate summers off and get a spring semester or fall semester off.  That is long gone.  People can still cobble a "trimester" schedule for themselves so long as they meet the required courses in their discipline and take their electives in the summer with either visiting professors or part-time faculty or the full-time, if they were choosing to moonlight (as many did for the extra dough.) Now with online teaching and learning things might be more flexible with a brick-and-mortar setting not always necessary. 

It is not black and white but it is rare to see a full-professor or even an associate professor hanging around the campus after the traditional academic calendar has finished in the spring. (They might be working hard, but we don't see that.) 

It worked out wonderfully well, for me to be free over Christmas, February and April vacations to get my highly-scheduled kids off-the-grid and go to Disneyworld or some other fun place to de-stress ourselves and unplug for some fun sibling time so they could reconnect without distractions.  Teaching in a school system (if you really love kids) is a great gig.  Wink
I agree the students don't see it the majority of their work.  The majority of their time is research, not teaching. My Dad took one out of every 3 years sabbatical. When he was on sabbatical he'd be consulting at an economic institution in whatever country he was doing research in (he worked on international economics and currency exchange so he had to do research in different places) and/or teaching at a university in that country, and researching and writing. When we were at home, he was teaching and researching and writing. The teaching part of his job was perhaps 15% of what he actually did. But he didn't usually do his research or writing in his office, so the students wouldn't see it.
Now, that's not always the case. Top tier research institutions will expect their professors to be mainly researchers and writers and secondarily teachers. Community colleges usually have no requirement or expectation for research and publication. And there's everything in between. Usually colleges focus a lot more on teaching than universities, for obvious reasons.
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filledeplage
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« Reply #40 on: April 10, 2016, 06:39:27 AM »

Most professors depending on their status, follow the student calendar.  Depending on where they teach, will take sabbaticals to work on research or work on a book.  

I'd be curious to hear from others in academia because, again, that's not my experience. Yes, there will be the occasional sabbatical, but that's not enough time for the amount of publishing required from tenure-track professors.
My father, aunt, uncle, brother and sister-in-law, all professors, work/ed year-round and very long hours. One benefit is they had slightly more flexible schedules than office work, but there's no leaving your work at the office. I've never known any of them to have a non-working vacation.
Emily - that is not what the students see when the individual professors offices close after the Spring semester exams.  They are gone until the Fall unless they are teaching  summer course and their snail mail piles up until they physically get back to collect it.  Some do work at home on books which is a continual work-in-progress and some go abroad for research or study.  Their offices are locked.  What the student sees is different from what the aspiring professor or adjunct or even full professor does.  One of mine would take a year off to write. 

A cousin who just retired, as a professor, would take a semester off, teach ESL abroad to "earn her keep" at whatever university she was at and work on her book.  So from the student perspective they area unavailable after fall and spring.  I did undergrad differently.  I did a trimester which ran all year and professors for required course would alternate summers off and get a spring semester or fall semester off.  That is long gone.  People can still cobble a "trimester" schedule for themselves so long as they meet the required courses in their discipline and take their electives in the summer with either visiting professors or part-time faculty or the full-time, if they were choosing to moonlight (as many did for the extra dough.) Now with online teaching and learning things might be more flexible with a brick-and-mortar setting not always necessary. 

It is not black and white but it is rare to see a full-professor or even an associate professor hanging around the campus after the traditional academic calendar has finished in the spring. (They might be working hard, but we don't see that.) 

It worked out wonderfully well, for me to be free over Christmas, February and April vacations to get my highly-scheduled kids off-the-grid and go to Disneyworld or some other fun place to de-stress ourselves and unplug for some fun sibling time so they could reconnect without distractions.  Teaching in a school system (if you really love kids) is a great gig.  Wink
I agree the students don't see it the majority of their work.  The majority of their time is research, not teaching. My Dad took one out of every 3 years sabbatical. When he was on sabbatical he'd be consulting at an economic institution in whatever country he was doing research in (he worked on international economics and currency exchange so he had to do research in different places) and/or teaching at a university in that country, and researching and writing. When we were at home, he was teaching and researching and writing. The teaching part of his job was perhaps 15% of what he actually did. But he didn't usually do his research or writing in his office, so the students wouldn't see it.
Now, that's not always the case. Top tier research institutions will expect their professors to be mainly researchers and writers and secondarily teachers. Community colleges usually have no requirement or expectation for research and publication. And there's everything in between. Usually colleges focus a lot more on teaching than universities, for obvious reasons.
Emily - that insistence on a year of research out of three years on the faculty is a rip-off for the parents and students.  They are deprived of the real-time teaching of these highly prized professor,  When parents are paying $65,000 for a Ivy or little-Ivy, losing 1/3 of that professors skill-set is akin to fraud on the part of the university system.  They get a faculty list for a department major and rely on having those professors available to them.  If anything, with online research more available, they could teach part-time and work on their research while not being absent and unavailable to the students. Community colleges are a rarely recognized gem where many of the name-brand faculty moonlight.  I have availed myself of the resources of all of those menus.  There is such a level of school-snobbery in this country (US) that I find utterly sickening.   

Those schools should allow their advertised faculty to remain on campus for the students, even part-time and have them do their research in the summer or part time during the academic year and reduce the teaching load but make them available to the students and other faculty whom they mentor.  JMHO.   Wink
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« Reply #41 on: April 10, 2016, 07:10:14 AM »

Most professors depending on their status, follow the student calendar.  Depending on where they teach, will take sabbaticals to work on research or work on a book.  

I'd be curious to hear from others in academia because, again, that's not my experience. Yes, there will be the occasional sabbatical, but that's not enough time for the amount of publishing required from tenure-track professors.
My father, aunt, uncle, brother and sister-in-law, all professors, work/ed year-round and very long hours. One benefit is they had slightly more flexible schedules than office work, but there's no leaving your work at the office. I've never known any of them to have a non-working vacation.
Emily - that is not what the students see when the individual professors offices close after the Spring semester exams.  They are gone until the Fall unless they are teaching  summer course and their snail mail piles up until they physically get back to collect it.  Some do work at home on books which is a continual work-in-progress and some go abroad for research or study.  Their offices are locked.  What the student sees is different from what the aspiring professor or adjunct or even full professor does.  One of mine would take a year off to write.  

A cousin who just retired, as a professor, would take a semester off, teach ESL abroad to "earn her keep" at whatever university she was at and work on her book.  So from the student perspective they area unavailable after fall and spring.  I did undergrad differently.  I did a trimester which ran all year and professors for required course would alternate summers off and get a spring semester or fall semester off.  That is long gone.  People can still cobble a "trimester" schedule for themselves so long as they meet the required courses in their discipline and take their electives in the summer with either visiting professors or part-time faculty or the full-time, if they were choosing to moonlight (as many did for the extra dough.) Now with online teaching and learning things might be more flexible with a brick-and-mortar setting not always necessary.  

It is not black and white but it is rare to see a full-professor or even an associate professor hanging around the campus after the traditional academic calendar has finished in the spring. (They might be working hard, but we don't see that.)  

It worked out wonderfully well, for me to be free over Christmas, February and April vacations to get my highly-scheduled kids off-the-grid and go to Disneyworld or some other fun place to de-stress ourselves and unplug for some fun sibling time so they could reconnect without distractions.  Teaching in a school system (if you really love kids) is a great gig.  Wink
I agree the students don't see it the majority of their work.  The majority of their time is research, not teaching. My Dad took one out of every 3 years sabbatical. When he was on sabbatical he'd be consulting at an economic institution in whatever country he was doing research in (he worked on international economics and currency exchange so he had to do research in different places) and/or teaching at a university in that country, and researching and writing. When we were at home, he was teaching and researching and writing. The teaching part of his job was perhaps 15% of what he actually did. But he didn't usually do his research or writing in his office, so the students wouldn't see it.
Now, that's not always the case. Top tier research institutions will expect their professors to be mainly researchers and writers and secondarily teachers. Community colleges usually have no requirement or expectation for research and publication. And there's everything in between. Usually colleges focus a lot more on teaching than universities, for obvious reasons.
Emily - that insistence on a year of research out of three years on the faculty is a rip-off for the parents and students.  They are deprived of the real-time teaching of these highly prized professor,  When parents are paying $65,000 for a Ivy or little-Ivy, losing 1/3 of that professors skill-set is akin to fraud on the part of the university system.  They get a faculty list for a department major and rely on having those professors available to them.  If anything, with online research more available, they could teach part-time and work on their research while not being absent and unavailable to the students. Community colleges are a rarely recognized gem where many of the name-brand faculty moonlight.  I have availed myself of the resources of all of those menus.  There is such a level of school-snobbery in this country (US) that I find utterly sickening.  

Those schools should allow their advertised faculty to remain on campus for the students, even part-time and have them do their research in the summer or part time during the academic year and reduce the teaching load but make them available to the students and other faculty whom they mentor.  JMHO.   Wink
You misunderstand. The research was done all the time; 1/3 years was in other locations because much of his research had to be done in other locations. My brother, for instance, is researching medieval math history. Much of his research, for obvious reasons, has to be done in Italy. It's the nature of the job: you have to be where the resources are. No one is going to scan the medieval documents into an online library; they are much too delicate. And much of what my dad did was field research. He was getting the information that can be compiled and put on line. But if he wants to know the impact of a new treaty on workers in Java, he needs to go to Java. The 'highly-prized' aspect to of the 'highly-prized' professor is that s/he is doing great original research. Take that away, and s/he is a not-particularly prized teacher. The difference being that a teacher teaches what the teacher has learned. A professor practices his or her profession and may teach about it as well.
But, regardless, wherever they are, whether home or away, research is their primary job definition, teaching is secondary. I know parents and students like to think that teaching is the main purpose, but it's not. They aren't losing 1/3 of the skill set because the skill of a professor is primarily doing original research.  If they feel ripped off, it's because they misunderstand the priorities of a research institution. The point of these institutions as that that's where the people who are doing the actual work of learning -the original research to find out new things - are. If students want to learn from true scholars, they can pay a fee and the scholars will take some time out of their work to teach the students. A professor is not a teacher. A professor's main job is to practice their profession. Sometimes they also teach. I agree that many people misunderstand this and that parents and kids think it's all about the parents and kids, but it's not.
Community Colleges have a primary agenda of teaching. They are entirely different from research universities. It's not snobbery, it's just fact.
What you describe in your final paragraph is fine for a college. Not for a university.

I guess the gist is: if the professors weren't supported in practicing their profession, there wouldn't be much for teachers to teach.
Sorry this has some redundancies. I'm on my phone and can't see the whole text at once which makes editing for flow really difficult.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2016, 07:19:55 AM by Emily » Logged
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« Reply #42 on: April 10, 2016, 07:57:57 AM »

Most professors depending on their status, follow the student calendar.  Depending on where they teach, will take sabbaticals to work on research or work on a book.  

I'd be curious to hear from others in academia because, again, that's not my experience. Yes, there will be the occasional sabbatical, but that's not enough time for the amount of publishing required from tenure-track professors.
My father, aunt, uncle, brother and sister-in-law, all professors, work/ed year-round and very long hours. One benefit is they had slightly more flexible schedules than office work, but there's no leaving your work at the office. I've never known any of them to have a non-working vacation.
Emily - that is not what the students see when the individual professors offices close after the Spring semester exams.  They are gone until the Fall unless they are teaching  summer course and their snail mail piles up until they physically get back to collect it.  Some do work at home on books which is a continual work-in-progress and some go abroad for research or study.  Their offices are locked.  What the student sees is different from what the aspiring professor or adjunct or even full professor does.  One of mine would take a year off to write.  

A cousin who just retired, as a professor, would take a semester off, teach ESL abroad to "earn her keep" at whatever university she was at and work on her book.  So from the student perspective they area unavailable after fall and spring.  I did undergrad differently.  I did a trimester which ran all year and professors for required course would alternate summers off and get a spring semester or fall semester off.  That is long gone.  People can still cobble a "trimester" schedule for themselves so long as they meet the required courses in their discipline and take their electives in the summer with either visiting professors or part-time faculty or the full-time, if they were choosing to moonlight (as many did for the extra dough.) Now with online teaching and learning things might be more flexible with a brick-and-mortar setting not always necessary.  

It is not black and white but it is rare to see a full-professor or even an associate professor hanging around the campus after the traditional academic calendar has finished in the spring. (They might be working hard, but we don't see that.)  

It worked out wonderfully well, for me to be free over Christmas, February and April vacations to get my highly-scheduled kids off-the-grid and go to Disneyworld or some other fun place to de-stress ourselves and unplug for some fun sibling time so they could reconnect without distractions.  Teaching in a school system (if you really love kids) is a great gig.  Wink
I agree the students don't see it the majority of their work.  The majority of their time is research, not teaching. My Dad took one out of every 3 years sabbatical. When he was on sabbatical he'd be consulting at an economic institution in whatever country he was doing research in (he worked on international economics and currency exchange so he had to do research in different places) and/or teaching at a university in that country, and researching and writing. When we were at home, he was teaching and researching and writing. The teaching part of his job was perhaps 15% of what he actually did. But he didn't usually do his research or writing in his office, so the students wouldn't see it.
Now, that's not always the case. Top tier research institutions will expect their professors to be mainly researchers and writers and secondarily teachers. Community colleges usually have no requirement or expectation for research and publication. And there's everything in between. Usually colleges focus a lot more on teaching than universities, for obvious reasons.
Emily - that insistence on a year of research out of three years on the faculty is a rip-off for the parents and students.  They are deprived of the real-time teaching of these highly prized professor,  When parents are paying $65,000 for a Ivy or little-Ivy, losing 1/3 of that professors skill-set is akin to fraud on the part of the university system.  They get a faculty list for a department major and rely on having those professors available to them.  If anything, with online research more available, they could teach part-time and work on their research while not being absent and unavailable to the students. Community colleges are a rarely recognized gem where many of the name-brand faculty moonlight.  I have availed myself of the resources of all of those menus.  There is such a level of school-snobbery in this country (US) that I find utterly sickening.  

Those schools should allow their advertised faculty to remain on campus for the students, even part-time and have them do their research in the summer or part time during the academic year and reduce the teaching load but make them available to the students and other faculty whom they mentor.  JMHO.   Wink
You misunderstand. The research was done all the time; 1/3 years was in other locations because much of his research had to be done in other locations. My brother, for instance, is researching medieval math history. Much of his research, for obvious reasons, has to be done in Italy. It's the nature of the job: you have to be where the resources are. No one is going to scan the medieval documents into an online library; they are much too delicate. And much of what my dad did was field research. He was getting the information that can be compiled and put on line. But if he wants to know the impact of a new treaty on workers in Java, he needs to go to Java. The 'highly-prized' aspect to of the 'highly-prized' professor is that s/he is doing great original research. Take that away, and s/he is a not-particularly prized teacher. The difference being that a teacher teaches what the teacher has learned. A professor practices his or her profession and may teach about it as well.
But, regardless, wherever they are, whether home or away, research is their primary job definition, teaching is secondary. I know parents and students like to think that teaching is the main purpose, but it's not. They aren't losing 1/3 of the skill set because the skill of a professor is primarily doing original research.  If they feel ripped off, it's because they misunderstand the priorities of a research institution. The point of these institutions as that that's where the people who are doing the actual work of learning -the original research to find out new things - are. If students want to learn from true scholars, they can pay a fee and the scholars will take some time out of their work to teach the students. A professor is not a teacher. A professor's main job is to practice their profession. Sometimes they also teach. I agree that many people misunderstand this and that parents and kids think it's all about the parents and kids, but it's not.
Community Colleges have a primary agenda of teaching. They are entirely different from research universities. It's not snobbery, it's just fact.
What you describe in your final paragraph is fine for a college. Not for a university.

I guess the gist is: if the professors weren't supported in practicing their profession, there wouldn't be much for teachers to teach.
Sorry this has some redundancies. I'm on my phone and can't see the whole text at once which makes editing for flow really difficult.
Emily - I do not misunderstand. I understand that research is an ongoing process.  Some research is by necessity done onsite, on location, abroad.  But, when you advertise your list of professors and one is absent for one year out of three, in terms of a consumer value in education it is a rip off. 

Teachers are above all else, "communicators." One of mine, was pressured by her university (a little Ivy, although she moonlighted at an Ivy, where I took one class with her) to do research.  She was the go-to person for the students.  And she minded the pressure to leave and not be available to the students in real-time.  Your father's field research to support a treaty, I would place in a different category.  It is not the same as a foreign language literature professor.  That research should not require a long absence and long unavailability.  Your father's research was not based on past writings retrospectively but work for prospective policies so that needs to be distinguished and not painted with a broad brush. 

When the list of professors is published and which a family seeks out for real-time teaching, and pays big money for, a disclaimer should be made that certain of these professors are absent on the third year.  Sorry, I think there should be transparency in higher ed. So many students end up with a TA instead of the real deal. 

But, I am noting the context from a consumer context because a TA (teaching assistant) picks up the slack in their absence.  A professor who is worth his or her salt is a teacher.  Yes it is academic snobbery in my opinion.  (snob comes from the French- "sans noblesse" or without title or nobility status from ancestry) That connotes a lack of worth imposed.  Many community colleges are webbed-in to the state universities as a path for admission.

In higher ed, Harvard was started as a college in 1636.  Johns Hopkins was established as the 1st US university.  College in Europe can mean a 2 year school.  So globally there are different connotations.   

 

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Emily
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« Reply #43 on: April 10, 2016, 08:02:53 AM »

I'm going to add that colleges usually provide better educations for students who do not plan to be professionals. It's a common mistake to think that a big-name university will give a better education to non-professionals n
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« Reply #44 on: April 10, 2016, 08:07:45 AM »

Most professors depending on their status, follow the student calendar.  Depending on where they teach, will take sabbaticals to work on research or work on a book.  

I'd be curious to hear from others in academia because, again, that's not my experience. Yes, there will be the occasional sabbatical, but that's not enough time for the amount of publishing required from tenure-track professors.
My father, aunt, uncle, brother and sister-in-law, all professors, work/ed year-round and very long hours. One benefit is they had slightly more flexible schedules than office work, but there's no leaving your work at the office. I've never known any of them to have a non-working vacation.
Emily - that is not what the students see when the individual professors offices close after the Spring semester exams.  They are gone until the Fall unless they are teaching  summer course and their snail mail piles up until they physically get back to collect it.  Some do work at home on books which is a continual work-in-progress and some go abroad for research or study.  Their offices are locked.  What the student sees is different from what the aspiring professor or adjunct or even full professor does.  One of mine would take a year off to write.  

A cousin who just retired, as a professor, would take a semester off, teach ESL abroad to "earn her keep" at whatever university she was at and work on her book.  So from the student perspective they area unavailable after fall and spring.  I did undergrad differently.  I did a trimester which ran all year and professors for required course would alternate summers off and get a spring semester or fall semester off.  That is long gone.  People can still cobble a "trimester" schedule for themselves so long as they meet the required courses in their discipline and take their electives in the summer with either visiting professors or part-time faculty or the full-time, if they were choosing to moonlight (as many did for the extra dough.) Now with online teaching and learning things might be more flexible with a brick-and-mortar setting not always necessary.  

It is not black and white but it is rare to see a full-professor or even an associate professor hanging around the campus after the traditional academic calendar has finished in the spring. (They might be working hard, but we don't see that.)  

It worked out wonderfully well, for me to be free over Christmas, February and April vacations to get my highly-scheduled kids off-the-grid and go to Disneyworld or some other fun place to de-stress ourselves and unplug for some fun sibling time so they could reconnect without distractions.  Teaching in a school system (if you really love kids) is a great gig.  Wink
I agree the students don't see it the majority of their work.  The majority of their time is research, not teaching. My Dad took one out of every 3 years sabbatical. When he was on sabbatical he'd be consulting at an economic institution in whatever country he was doing research in (he worked on international economics and currency exchange so he had to do research in different places) and/or teaching at a university in that country, and researching and writing. When we were at home, he was teaching and researching and writing. The teaching part of his job was perhaps 15% of what he actually did. But he didn't usually do his research or writing in his office, so the students wouldn't see it.
Now, that's not always the case. Top tier research institutions will expect their professors to be mainly researchers and writers and secondarily teachers. Community colleges usually have no requirement or expectation for research and publication. And there's everything in between. Usually colleges focus a lot more on teaching than universities, for obvious reasons.
Emily - that insistence on a year of research out of three years on the faculty is a rip-off for the parents and students.  They are deprived of the real-time teaching of these highly prized professor,  When parents are paying $65,000 for a Ivy or little-Ivy, losing 1/3 of that professors skill-set is akin to fraud on the part of the university system.  They get a faculty list for a department major and rely on having those professors available to them.  If anything, with online research more available, they could teach part-time and work on their research while not being absent and unavailable to the students. Community colleges are a rarely recognized gem where many of the name-brand faculty moonlight.  I have availed myself of the resources of all of those menus.  There is such a level of school-snobbery in this country (US) that I find utterly sickening.  

Those schools should allow their advertised faculty to remain on campus for the students, even part-time and have them do their research in the summer or part time during the academic year and reduce the teaching load but make them available to the students and other faculty whom they mentor.  JMHO.   Wink
You misunderstand. The research was done all the time; 1/3 years was in other locations because much of his research had to be done in other locations. My brother, for instance, is researching medieval math history. Much of his research, for obvious reasons, has to be done in Italy. It's the nature of the job: you have to be where the resources are. No one is going to scan the medieval documents into an online library; they are much too delicate. And much of what my dad did was field research. He was getting the information that can be compiled and put on line. But if he wants to know the impact of a new treaty on workers in Java, he needs to go to Java. The 'highly-prized' aspect to of the 'highly-prized' professor is that s/he is doing great original research. Take that away, and s/he is a not-particularly prized teacher. The difference being that a teacher teaches what the teacher has learned. A professor practices his or her profession and may teach about it as well.
But, regardless, wherever they are, whether home or away, research is their primary job definition, teaching is secondary. I know parents and students like to think that teaching is the main purpose, but it's not. They aren't losing 1/3 of the skill set because the skill of a professor is primarily doing original research.  If they feel ripped off, it's because they misunderstand the priorities of a research institution. The point of these institutions as that that's where the people who are doing the actual work of learning -the original research to find out new things - are. If students want to learn from true scholars, they can pay a fee and the scholars will take some time out of their work to teach the students. A professor is not a teacher. A professor's main job is to practice their profession. Sometimes they also teach. I agree that many people misunderstand this and that parents and kids think it's all about the parents and kids, but it's not.
Community Colleges have a primary agenda of teaching. They are entirely different from research universities. It's not snobbery, it's just fact.
What you describe in your final paragraph is fine for a college. Not for a university.

I guess the gist is: if the professors weren't supported in practicing their profession, there wouldn't be much for teachers to teach.
Sorry this has some redundancies. I'm on my phone and can't see the whole text at once which makes editing for flow really difficult.
Emily - I do not misunderstand. I understand that research is an ongoing process.  Some research is by necessity done onsite, on location, abroad.  But, when you advertise your list of professors and one is absent for one year out of three, in terms of a consumer value in education it is a rip off. 

Teachers are above all else, "communicators." One of mine, was pressured by her university (a little Ivy, although she moonlighted at an Ivy, where I took one class with her) to do research.  She was the go-to person for the students.  And she minded the pressure to leave and not be available to the students in real-time.  Your father's field research to support a treaty, I would place in a different category.  It is not the same as a foreign language literature professor.  That research should not require a long absence and long unavailability.  Your father's research was not based on past writings retrospectively but work for prospective policies so that needs to be distinguished and not painted with a broad brush. 

When the list of professors is published and which a family seeks out for real-time teaching, and pays big money for, a disclaimer should be made that certain of these professors are absent on the third year.  Sorry, I think there should be transparency in higher ed. So many students end up with a TA instead of the real deal. 

But, I am noting the context from a consumer context because a TA (teaching assistant) picks up the slack in their absence.  A professor who is worth his or her salt is a teacher.  Yes it is academic snobbery in my opinion.  (snob comes from the French- "sans noblesse" or without title or nobility status from ancestry) That connotes a lack of worth imposed.  Many community colleges are webbed-in to the state universities as a path for admission.

In higher ed, Harvard was started as a college in 1636.  Johns Hopkins was established as the 1st US university.  College in Europe can mean a 2 year school.  So globally there are different connotations.   

 


Your friend should have moved to a college. Traditionally and usually, universities are primarily about research. Yes, Harvard was originally a college but it became a university and when it did, its mandate changed.
It's not snobbery. One is a teaching institution; one is a research institution. They are different. 
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filledeplage
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« Reply #45 on: April 10, 2016, 09:25:54 AM »

Most professors depending on their status, follow the student calendar.  Depending on where they teach, will take sabbaticals to work on research or work on a book.  

I'd be curious to hear from others in academia because, again, that's not my experience. Yes, there will be the occasional sabbatical, but that's not enough time for the amount of publishing required from tenure-track professors.
My father, aunt, uncle, brother and sister-in-law, all professors, work/ed year-round and very long hours. One benefit is they had slightly more flexible schedules than office work, but there's no leaving your work at the office. I've never known any of them to have a non-working vacation.
Emily - that is not what the students see when the individual professors offices close after the Spring semester exams.  They are gone until the Fall unless they are teaching  summer course and their snail mail piles up until they physically get back to collect it.  Some do work at home on books which is a continual work-in-progress and some go abroad for research or study.  Their offices are locked.  What the student sees is different from what the aspiring professor or adjunct or even full professor does.  One of mine would take a year off to write.  

A cousin who just retired, as a professor, would take a semester off, teach ESL abroad to "earn her keep" at whatever university she was at and work on her book.  So from the student perspective they area unavailable after fall and spring.  I did undergrad differently.  I did a trimester which ran all year and professors for required course would alternate summers off and get a spring semester or fall semester off.  That is long gone.  People can still cobble a "trimester" schedule for themselves so long as they meet the required courses in their discipline and take their electives in the summer with either visiting professors or part-time faculty or the full-time, if they were choosing to moonlight (as many did for the extra dough.) Now with online teaching and learning things might be more flexible with a brick-and-mortar setting not always necessary.  

It is not black and white but it is rare to see a full-professor or even an associate professor hanging around the campus after the traditional academic calendar has finished in the spring. (They might be working hard, but we don't see that.)  

It worked out wonderfully well, for me to be free over Christmas, February and April vacations to get my highly-scheduled kids off-the-grid and go to Disneyworld or some other fun place to de-stress ourselves and unplug for some fun sibling time so they could reconnect without distractions.  Teaching in a school system (if you really love kids) is a great gig.  Wink
I agree the students don't see it the majority of their work.  The majority of their time is research, not teaching. My Dad took one out of every 3 years sabbatical. When he was on sabbatical he'd be consulting at an economic institution in whatever country he was doing research in (he worked on international economics and currency exchange so he had to do research in different places) and/or teaching at a university in that country, and researching and writing. When we were at home, he was teaching and researching and writing. The teaching part of his job was perhaps 15% of what he actually did. But he didn't usually do his research or writing in his office, so the students wouldn't see it.
Now, that's not always the case. Top tier research institutions will expect their professors to be mainly researchers and writers and secondarily teachers. Community colleges usually have no requirement or expectation for research and publication. And there's everything in between. Usually colleges focus a lot more on teaching than universities, for obvious reasons.
Emily - that insistence on a year of research out of three years on the faculty is a rip-off for the parents and students.  They are deprived of the real-time teaching of these highly prized professor,  When parents are paying $65,000 for a Ivy or little-Ivy, losing 1/3 of that professors skill-set is akin to fraud on the part of the university system.  They get a faculty list for a department major and rely on having those professors available to them.  If anything, with online research more available, they could teach part-time and work on their research while not being absent and unavailable to the students. Community colleges are a rarely recognized gem where many of the name-brand faculty moonlight.  I have availed myself of the resources of all of those menus.  There is such a level of school-snobbery in this country (US) that I find utterly sickening.  

Those schools should allow their advertised faculty to remain on campus for the students, even part-time and have them do their research in the summer or part time during the academic year and reduce the teaching load but make them available to the students and other faculty whom they mentor.  JMHO.   Wink
You misunderstand. The research was done all the time; 1/3 years was in other locations because much of his research had to be done in other locations. My brother, for instance, is researching medieval math history. Much of his research, for obvious reasons, has to be done in Italy. It's the nature of the job: you have to be where the resources are. No one is going to scan the medieval documents into an online library; they are much too delicate. And much of what my dad did was field research. He was getting the information that can be compiled and put on line. But if he wants to know the impact of a new treaty on workers in Java, he needs to go to Java. The 'highly-prized' aspect to of the 'highly-prized' professor is that s/he is doing great original research. Take that away, and s/he is a not-particularly prized teacher. The difference being that a teacher teaches what the teacher has learned. A professor practices his or her profession and may teach about it as well.
But, regardless, wherever they are, whether home or away, research is their primary job definition, teaching is secondary. I know parents and students like to think that teaching is the main purpose, but it's not. They aren't losing 1/3 of the skill set because the skill of a professor is primarily doing original research.  If they feel ripped off, it's because they misunderstand the priorities of a research institution. The point of these institutions as that that's where the people who are doing the actual work of learning -the original research to find out new things - are. If students want to learn from true scholars, they can pay a fee and the scholars will take some time out of their work to teach the students. A professor is not a teacher. A professor's main job is to practice their profession. Sometimes they also teach. I agree that many people misunderstand this and that parents and kids think it's all about the parents and kids, but it's not.
Community Colleges have a primary agenda of teaching. They are entirely different from research universities. It's not snobbery, it's just fact.
What you describe in your final paragraph is fine for a college. Not for a university.

I guess the gist is: if the professors weren't supported in practicing their profession, there wouldn't be much for teachers to teach.
Sorry this has some redundancies. I'm on my phone and can't see the whole text at once which makes editing for flow really difficult.
Emily - I do not misunderstand. I understand that research is an ongoing process.  Some research is by necessity done onsite, on location, abroad.  But, when you advertise your list of professors and one is absent for one year out of three, in terms of a consumer value in education it is a rip off. 

Teachers are above all else, "communicators." One of mine, was pressured by her university (a little Ivy, although she moonlighted at an Ivy, where I took one class with her) to do research.  She was the go-to person for the students.  And she minded the pressure to leave and not be available to the students in real-time.  Your father's field research to support a treaty, I would place in a different category.  It is not the same as a foreign language literature professor.  That research should not require a long absence and long unavailability.  Your father's research was not based on past writings retrospectively but work for prospective policies so that needs to be distinguished and not painted with a broad brush. 

When the list of professors is published and which a family seeks out for real-time teaching, and pays big money for, a disclaimer should be made that certain of these professors are absent on the third year.  Sorry, I think there should be transparency in higher ed. So many students end up with a TA instead of the real deal. 

But, I am noting the context from a consumer context because a TA (teaching assistant) picks up the slack in their absence.  A professor who is worth his or her salt is a teacher.  Yes it is academic snobbery in my opinion.  (snob comes from the French- "sans noblesse" or without title or nobility status from ancestry) That connotes a lack of worth imposed.  Many community colleges are webbed-in to the state universities as a path for admission.

In higher ed, Harvard was started as a college in 1636.  Johns Hopkins was established as the 1st US university.  College in Europe can mean a 2 year school.  So globally there are different connotations.   

 


Your friend should have moved to a college. Traditionally and usually, universities are primarily about research. Yes, Harvard was originally a college but it became a university and when it did, its mandate changed.
It's not snobbery. One is a teaching institution; one is a research institution. They are different. 
Emily -  I would never suggest that this professor move to a college. The humanities departments have a different mission from many others.  I find them more retrospective than the prospective nature of what your father was involved in working prospectively towards policies for treaties. 

Many colleges take on university status when they offer a PhD program. They differ little in quality, offer similar degrees, at the Bachelor's and Master's level. It is merely a change in name.  One state with which I am familiar recently renamed all the colleges to universities.  And the main difference is the doctoral track. and the link backwards to the community colleges, as a sort of feeder system, so they are all part of one university system. When the students finish their 60 credits, they are guaranteed the state university admission, as well as other private ones in their feeder track. 

Having been in both systems, the difference I saw was that the public university/college was not spoon-feeding anyone.  You had to sink or swim on your own determination and work. The private ones tended to hold-your-hand and provide student support for students who were academically on the fringe.  The public colleges/universities could learn from them in that respect.

Responding on a phone is not necessary. That is more dedicated than I am. Enjoy your day.  It can wait.   Wink   

Harvard College was the feeder school for the Boston Latin School.  BLS was in existence a year before Harvard. 

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Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #46 on: April 10, 2016, 09:48:32 AM »

Emily -  I would never suggest that this professor move to a college. The humanities departments have a different mission from many others.  I find them more retrospective than the prospective nature of what your father was involved in working prospectively towards policies for treaties. 

I'm sorry but that is a dramatically false characterization of the humanities. Of course every department differs from one another and they all have different goals and explore different areas of knowledge. But the humanities are very much engaged with the process of expanding knowledge, pushing knowledge further, etc. Maybe I'm unclear on what you mean by "retrospective" but I don't personally see it that way.
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« Reply #47 on: April 10, 2016, 09:51:01 AM »

Also it does seem to me that since your friend has no interest in research then she wouldn't want to be a researcher for a living, which is what a professor is. I have no doubt that your friend is a great teacher, but he or she seems not to be particularly interested in being a professor. Which, of course, is a perfectly reasonable position to take - I say the same thing to myself almost every day.
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« Reply #48 on: April 10, 2016, 09:52:10 AM »

Emily -  I would never suggest that this professor move to a college. The humanities departments have a different mission from many others.  I find them more retrospective than the prospective nature of what your father was involved in working prospectively towards policies for treaties. 

I'm sorry but that is a dramatically false characterization of the humanities. Of course every department differs from one another and they all have different goals and explore different areas of knowledge. But the humanities are very much engaged with the process of expanding knowledge, pushing knowledge further, etc. Maybe I'm unclear on what you mean by "retrospective" but I don't personally see it that way.
CSM - I was thinking about old literature from the MIddle Ages changing less than recent stuff.  Wink
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« Reply #49 on: April 10, 2016, 09:56:11 AM »

FdP, the difference between a BA or an MA, and a Ph.D. is that the former two are meant to be about learning the existing body of knowledge and the latter is about adding to that body of knowledge.  They are not only different in level, they are different in kind. It is not just a different name. It's a wholly different purpose. Perhaps that's why you think this is snobbery, because you think that Ph.D.s are the same as the other degrees but more advanced. They are not the same. They are not better or worse, they are different.
That a Ph.D. Is about research applies to any field, including the humanities.
I'm aware of Harvard's history. It's my Alma Mater.
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