What songs did Mike Love "steal" in the copyright trial against Brian?

[HeyJude]

The issue of what constitutes credit for writing a song is so grey and ambiguous. Add to that various legal maneuvering, an apparent/alleged dysfunctional, ill-advised situation in on Brian's legal side (e.g. stories of a pre-trial offer to settle that was apparently much more advantageous to Brian), and there aren't clear answers.

If a lawsuit like this were happening today, I think Brian would be much more well-advised and the outcome would have been somewhat if not quite different. I would guess it would be more of a cash settlement and maybe a few less credits. I could see them fighting on at least stuff like "Wouldn't It Be Nice."

With a more detailed, sharkish defense (and offense), a lot of other things could have been established, such as whether Mike ever had as much *musical* help on his solo writing credits as Brian did *lyrical* help on stuff without Mike's name, and if so, why Mike didn't feel he needed to credit those who helped with that. I've always tended to doubt Mike always *fully* fleshed out all the chord changes to songs like "Big Sur", "Everyone's In Love With You", "Goin' to the Beach", "Alone on Christmas Day", and so on.

But yeah, there are other examples of non-credits that are at least as substantive as WIBN. Some have argued Al should have gotten a little chunk of the arranging credit on "Sloop John B." There's Dennis with YASB.

I've always been surprised that Matthew Fisher's relative success in the infamous "Whiter Shade of Pale" case from several years back hasn't resulted in a lot more "contributors" coming out of the woodwork and claiming their contributions constituted some level of a co-writer credit. There was probably a lot of cross-pollination within the BBs where others might have warranted credits.

[SurfRiderHawaii]

The issue of what constitutes credit for writing a song is so grey and ambiguous. Add to that various legal maneuvering, an apparent/alleged dysfunctional, ill-advised situation in on Brian's legal side (e.g. stories of a pre-trial offer to settle that was apparently much more advantageous to Brian), and there aren't clear answers.

If a lawsuit like this were happening today, I think Brian would be much more well-advised and the outcome would have been somewhat if not quite different. I would guess it would be more of a cash settlement and maybe a few less credits. I could see them fighting on at least stuff like "Wouldn't It Be Nice."

With a more detailed, sharkish defense (and offense), a lot of other things could have been established, such as whether Mike ever had as much *musical* help on his solo writing credits as Brian did *lyrical* help on stuff without Mike's name, and if so, why Mike didn't feel he needed to credit those who helped with that. I've always tended to doubt Mike always *fully* fleshed out all the chord changes to songs like "Big Sur", "Everyone's In Love With You", "Goin' to the Beach", "Alone on Christmas Day", and so on.

But yeah, there are other examples of non-credits that are at least as substantive as WIBN. Some have argued Al should have gotten a little chunk of the arranging credit on "Sloop John B." There's Dennis with YASB.

I've always been surprised that Matthew Fisher's relative success in the infamous "Whiter Shade of Pale" case from several years back hasn't resulted in a lot more "contributors" coming out of the woodwork and claiming their contributions constituted some level of a co-writer credit. There was probably a lot of cross-pollination within the BBs where others might have warranted credits.

There seems to be two schools of thought. Like Roger Waters mostly sole credits on "Animals" despite extenive improvising by Rick Wright. Jagger/Richards is the same deal. If Wyman had a riff, he wasn't getting credit.

Some band give credit all the way around, even arranging is considered songwriting.  I prefer that method as credits can be divided up in pieces equally 50%.

[KingSurf]

A note on Surfin USA, Brian says Mike wrote the lyrics with him here.  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/film/love-and-mercy/brian-wilson-interview/

“I never learnt how to surf because I was always afraid to try,” he says. “But my brother Dennis told me surfing was popular and why didn’t I write some songs about it? So Mike Love and I wrote Surfin (USA).’”

I believe David Marks testified that he remembered Mike writing the lyrics to Chug A Lug, hah. Not sure if he mentioned any other songs.

One song Mike give some specifics on is I Get Around, said he wrote the Round, Round Get Around I Get Around bit. Brian had 2 lines & they finished it off together. Read
this in an interview before the lawsuit.

[Bicyclerider]

Someone refresh my memory.  - what songs did Mike give testimony in court concerning his exact contributions?  I thought before the trial got very far along, they wanted Brian to testify, he freaked and rolled over and gave Mike everything he asked for.

As for 409, I feel it's very similar to WIBN - Mike came up with a two line bass vocal for the fade, while for 409 he came up with a five word intro bass vocal - "she's real fine my 409."  The giddy up, giddy up 409 bass backing vocal took a phrase already written by Usher and Brian and put it as a backing vocal - that's arranging, not writing.

[Cam Mott]

If it were a matter of a few song titles being taken off the list it might be chalked up to being par for the course of legal actions in general with cases like this. But when over half of the songs originally claimed get taken off the table and removed from the case, that raises eyebrows, especially factoring in the comments about both parties knowing who wrote what in the case. How 79 gets whittled down to 35 by the time it's over is a pretty significant drop, it's over half (or a majority) of the songs being claimed getting removed from the case! Something just never made sense with those numbers dropping so significantly if the case was so clear-cut going in.

Even if your claims are 100% true you have to show a preponderance of  evidence I believe, so if you didn't any witnesses or just hearsay etc. it wouldn't meet the test.  Another way to look at it is the remaining 36 were very well vetted.

[Emily]

As far as I know, this is the only published account:
http://www.surfermoon.com
Cam, in a civil case, if the plaintiff testifies, "I wrote X" and the defendant doesn't counter it or offer any contrary evidence, that will usually be considered a preponderance; so if the defendant doesn't defend, the plaintiff wins without any vetting.

[Cam Mott]

That wouldn't disqualify it as vetting though would it? 

[Emily]

That wouldn't disqualify it as vetting though would it?  

The person who would benefit if something were true saying it's true? It's not what I would consider vetting.
British people, what's that Profumo Affair quote?

Edit: they're asleep so I looked it up. Not too complicated: 'He would, wouldn't he?'

[Cam Mott]

That wouldn't disqualify it as vetting though would it? 

The person who would benefit if something were true saying it's true? It's not what I would consider vetting.
British people, what's that Profumo Affair quote?

The defense not disputing it if it were untrue.  They apparently disputed plenty of claims by your criteria.

[Emily]

That wouldn't disqualify it as vetting though would it? 

The person who would benefit if something were true saying it's true? It's not what I would consider vetting.
British people, what's that Profumo Affair quote?

The defense not disputing it if it were untrue.  They apparently disputed plenty of claims by your criteria.

I don't know. I don't know by what process the others were eliminated. It reads as though there was a lame attempt at defense but that Brian's lawyers did a bad job and that Brian didn't help himself much. So I'd guess the songs that were eliminated were just really easy to eliminate, because all the evidence we have indicates that not much effort was made by the defense.
We don't know what happened really. We know that he got credit on WIBN for a contribution the level of which is most likely very rarely credited. So I guess we can assume he contributed even less to those songs. But it's pretty hard to be confident in any assumptions with this one.
Does any one know at what stages those other songs were eliminated? Pretrial? Discovery? Trial?

[Emily]

Though, this got off track because I was responding more to the notion that they were 'vetted' which I wouldn't say they were if we are only relying on the plaintiff's testimony. But, i don't mean to imply in this specific case that the plaintiff was lying. I think perhaps he was perfectly honest and, as I said above, testified that he contributed even less to the other songs and it was decided that those contributions weren't credit-worthy.

[mabewa]

Aww. I thought the thread title was a punny "What songs did Mike love?"
Anyway, I always thought it was strange that writers used the lyrics to "Good to my Baby" and "She Knows me too Well" to analyze Brian. I always thought the machismo in those lyrics were much more Mikish, but I may be projecting a sensibility onto Brian that isn't there.
By the same token, I agree about Back of my Mind - the fact that Brian returns to it reinforces that for me - and You're so Good to Me.

I don't think She Knows Me Too Well is at all machismo-ish, myself. It's talking about a theme that's *very* common in Brian's writing -- the flawed, hurtful man who is redeemed by the love of a woman who's much better than he is, and who's scared of losing her. We see that in everything from Don't Worry Baby to Don't Let Her Know She's An Angel.
Which isn't to say Mike didn't have a hand in writing it. We know that the way their collaborations worked at that time mostly involved Brian coming up with a track and title and Mike writing words to it -- it doesn't seem at all implausible that Mike would be able to finish a half-finished Brian lyric.
As for In The Back of My Mind, I'd bet that's 90% Brian's lyric, yes -- but there are a few bits in there that sound more Mike (notably "I try to rationalise/But some day I might realise" -- that sounds like Mike's too-clever-by-half rhyming to me), and remember that the 1975 version has distinctly different lyrics in places.
My personal guess is that Rocky is exactly as trustworthy as he seems -- not at all. I expect that in almost all the songs Mike won credit for, he made *some* contribution. But I'd also bet that if we knew what that contribution was, in some cases (maybe quite a few) many of us would think it wasn't worth him getting equal credit for it. I'd guess that some of the songs mentioned here, he only added a line or two (like with "good night baby/sleep tight baby), while on others he wrote the whole lyric or very nearly all.

Nice summary--this is pretty much what I believe.

[mabewa]

The issue of what constitutes credit for writing a song is so grey and ambiguous. Add to that various legal maneuvering, an apparent/alleged dysfunctional, ill-advised situation in on Brian's legal side (e.g. stories of a pre-trial offer to settle that was apparently much more advantageous to Brian), and there aren't clear answers.

If a lawsuit like this were happening today, I think Brian would be much more well-advised and the outcome would have been somewhat if not quite different. I would guess it would be more of a cash settlement and maybe a few less credits. I could see them fighting on at least stuff like "Wouldn't It Be Nice."

With a more detailed, sharkish defense (and offense), a lot of other things could have been established, such as whether Mike ever had as much *musical* help on his solo writing credits as Brian did *lyrical* help on stuff without Mike's name, and if so, why Mike didn't feel he needed to credit those who helped with that. I've always tended to doubt Mike always *fully* fleshed out all the chord changes to songs like "Big Sur", "Everyone's In Love With You", "Goin' to the Beach", "Alone on Christmas Day", and so on.

But yeah, there are other examples of non-credits that are at least as substantive as WIBN. Some have argued Al should have gotten a little chunk of the arranging credit on "Sloop John B." There's Dennis with YASB.

I've always been surprised that Matthew Fisher's relative success in the infamous "Whiter Shade of Pale" case from several years back hasn't resulted in a lot more "contributors" coming out of the woodwork and claiming their contributions constituted some level of a co-writer credit. There was probably a lot of cross-pollination within the BBs where others might have warranted credits.

There seems to be two schools of thought. Like Roger Waters mostly sole credits on "Animals" despite extenive improvising by Rick Wright. Jagger/Richards is the same deal. If Wyman had a riff, he wasn't getting credit.

Some band give credit all the way around, even arranging is considered songwriting.  I prefer that method as credits can be divided up in pieces equally 50%.

Ah, you brought up Animals!  Nice!!!

Yeah, listen to the first one minute and 40 seconds of Sheep--it's an electric piano piece with a bunch of weird, jazzy chords (the kind that Rick wrote with and Roger didn't).  It's clearly at least somewhat 'composed' as well, as the droning bass part changes as the chords do. That piece has Rick all over it, and doesn't sound like anything that Roger wrote by himself...  yet the songwriting credit is all Roger.  I would lean towards giving Rick a credit there. 

[mabewa]

A note on Surfin USA, Brian says Mike wrote the lyrics with him here.  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/film/love-and-mercy/brian-wilson-interview/

“I never learnt how to surf because I was always afraid to try,” he says. “But my brother Dennis told me surfing was popular and why didn’t I write some songs about it? So Mike Love and I wrote Surfin (USA).’”

I believe David Marks testified that he remembered Mike writing the lyrics to Chug A Lug, hah. Not sure if he mentioned any other songs.

One song Mike give some specifics on is I Get Around, said he wrote the Round, Round Get Around I Get Around bit. Brian had 2 lines & they finished it off together. Read
this in an interview before the lawsuit.

I've seen this interview before, but I'm pretty sure that it's the interviewer's mistake.  Brian is talking about SURFIN', fits perfectly with the story we know (Dennis pestered Brian to write about surfing, so he and Mike wrote 'Surfin'.  The interviewer, who may not be a big BB's fan, put in the (USA) part himself, not knowing that they had an earlier song called 'Surfin.'   

[AndrewHickey]

Someone refresh my memory.  - what songs did Mike give testimony in court concerning his exact contributions?  I thought before the trial got very far along, they wanted Brian to testify, he freaked and rolled over and gave Mike everything he asked for.

As for 409, I feel it's very similar to WIBN - Mike came up with a two line bass vocal for the fade, while for 409 he came up with a five word intro bass vocal - "she's real fine my 409."  The giddy up, giddy up 409 bass backing vocal took a phrase already written by Usher and Brian and put it as a backing vocal - that's arranging, not writing.

I've taken him saying he came up with the "giddyup 409" part to be him saying he actually came up with that phrase, which given the simplicity of the lyric would mean he'd written about a third of the lyric just from that one line. If he did only suggest using the already-written phrase as a backing vocal line, I agree that's an arrangement contribution.

[HeyJude]

I have a vague recollection that Mike mentioned this aspect in some interviews, but I could totally be wrong: On the songs where Mike's name was added (and he got back royalties and of course ongoing royalties), he may not (I would say probably didn't) have received a 50/50 split with Brian. Obviously, he gets a 50/50 split on the actual printed credit (to my belief, they all say "Words and Music by Wilson and Love", rather than "Words by Wilson and Love, Music by Wilson", etc.), but on a lot of these songs he may be getting a 25% cut (or some other negotiated or adjudicated amount lower than 50%), as in many if not most cases, Brian wrote some amount of the lyrics and presumably pretty much *all* of the music.

For instance, in the classic, oft-cited example, while Mike often says he wrote all of the words to "California Girls", we have him within the same interview also saying Brian wrote the main refrain "I wish they all could be California Girls."

I would tend to doubt, even going up against what sounds a bit like shooting fish in a barrel with Brian's "defense" in that court case, Mike would have or could have "demonstrated" in court how he wrote any substantive part of the music. I think it's possible he (and other vocalists and co-writers in the band) may have helped to mold the lead melody sometimes.

[guitarfool2002]

The song was "Surfin'" and not "Surfin USA", that is correct.

Maybe someone can correct me if I'm remembering it wrong, but Surfin USA was not part of the 90's credits lawsuit, and for a very confusing maze of credits, trace the history of Surfin USA releases since it first came out. It was published/owned by Arc Music, which is where many of the Chess label's music resides, including Chuck Berry. Credits on various releases ranged from "Brian Wilson" to "Brian Wilson - Chuck Berry" to "Chuck Berry" and going so far as "words and music by Chuck Berry". The latter is obviously not the case, factually...so why does it appear that way?

Murry signed over the song to resolve the copyright claims with Chuck's Sweet Little Sixteen.

Which means, if Mike had wanted to claim credit for Surfin USA, he'd need to bring Arc and Chuck Berry into a court case, separate from where he took Brian to court over the 79 songs, since Chuck and Arc technically "own" Surfin USA ostensibly thanks to Murry 50 years ago. It's almost comical to see Arc's catalog of song titles and see one and only one Beach Boys song on that list, even though Chuck Berry did not write a single word of that lyric, and the main hook of the melody sounds nothing like Sweet Little Sixteen.

Wonder why Mike didn't take Arc to court over claiming that lyric credit, since it's one of the most familiar songs in the Beach Boys discography.

[KingSurf]

The song was "Surfin'" and not "Surfin USA", that is correct.

Maybe someone can correct me if I'm remembering it wrong, but Surfin USA was not part of the 90's credits lawsuit, and for a very confusing maze of credits, trace the history of Surfin USA releases since it first came out. It was published/owned by Arc Music, which is where many of the Chess label's music resides, including Chuck Berry. Credits on various releases ranged from "Brian Wilson" to "Brian Wilson - Chuck Berry" to "Chuck Berry" and going so far as "words and music by Chuck Berry". The latter is obviously not the case, factually...so why does it appear that way?

Murry signed over the song to resolve the copyright claims with Chuck's Sweet Little Sixteen.

Which means, if Mike had wanted to claim credit for Surfin USA, he'd need to bring Arc and Chuck Berry into a court case, separate from where he took Brian to court over the 79 songs, since Chuck and Arc technically "own" Surfin USA ostensibly thanks to Murry 50 years ago. It's almost comical to see Arc's catalog of song titles and see one and only one Beach Boys song on that list, even though Chuck Berry did not write a single word of that lyric, and the main hook of the melody sounds nothing like Sweet Little Sixteen.

Wonder why Mike didn't take Arc to court over claiming that lyric credit, since it's one of the most familiar songs in the Beach Boys discography.

It would be almost an impossible suit to win, if Brian/Murrayould have made an agreement to split copyright, there may be a case. The reason I was looking for if Brian ever suggested Mike wrote part of Surfin USA, is someone mentioned on another board they
saw Brian say it in an old interview, was trying to find that interview and found that.

[guitarfool2002]

The song was "Surfin'" and not "Surfin USA", that is correct.

Maybe someone can correct me if I'm remembering it wrong, but Surfin USA was not part of the 90's credits lawsuit, and for a very confusing maze of credits, trace the history of Surfin USA releases since it first came out. It was published/owned by Arc Music, which is where many of the Chess label's music resides, including Chuck Berry. Credits on various releases ranged from "Brian Wilson" to "Brian Wilson - Chuck Berry" to "Chuck Berry" and going so far as "words and music by Chuck Berry". The latter is obviously not the case, factually...so why does it appear that way?

Murry signed over the song to resolve the copyright claims with Chuck's Sweet Little Sixteen.

Which means, if Mike had wanted to claim credit for Surfin USA, he'd need to bring Arc and Chuck Berry into a court case, separate from where he took Brian to court over the 79 songs, since Chuck and Arc technically "own" Surfin USA ostensibly thanks to Murry 50 years ago. It's almost comical to see Arc's catalog of song titles and see one and only one Beach Boys song on that list, even though Chuck Berry did not write a single word of that lyric, and the main hook of the melody sounds nothing like Sweet Little Sixteen.

Wonder why Mike didn't take Arc to court over claiming that lyric credit, since it's one of the most familiar songs in the Beach Boys discography.

It would be almost an impossible suit to win, if Brian/Murrayould have made an agreement to split copyright, there may be a case. The reason I was looking for if Brian ever suggested Mike wrote part of Surfin USA, is someone mentioned on another board they
saw Brian say it in an old interview, was trying to find that interview and found that.

I think in some ways it would be an even easier case to prove if Mike had chosen to file a claim against Arc for publishing and even whatever interest handles Chuck Berry's songwriting affairs, since it is absolute 100% fact that Chuck Berry had no involvement in writing the lyrics to Surfin USA, yet on many credits he's listed as writer for both music and lyrics - thanks to Murry back in the 60's. But it's a matter of who to take to court and how Mike I guess could have shown a court that he had a hand in writing those words.

[KingSurf]

The song was "Surfin'" and not "Surfin USA", that is correct.

Maybe someone can correct me if I'm remembering it wrong, but Surfin USA was not part of the 90's credits lawsuit, and for a very confusing maze of credits, trace the history of Surfin USA releases since it first came out. It was published/owned by Arc Music, which is where many of the Chess label's music resides, including Chuck Berry. Credits on various releases ranged from "Brian Wilson" to "Brian Wilson - Chuck Berry" to "Chuck Berry" and going so far as "words and music by Chuck Berry". The latter is obviously not the case, factually...so why does it appear that way?

Murry signed over the song to resolve the copyright claims with Chuck's Sweet Little Sixteen.

Which means, if Mike had wanted to claim credit for Surfin USA, he'd need to bring Arc and Chuck Berry into a court case, separate from where he took Brian to court over the 79 songs, since Chuck and Arc technically "own" Surfin USA ostensibly thanks to Murry 50 years ago. It's almost comical to see Arc's catalog of song titles and see one and only one Beach Boys song on that list, even though Chuck Berry did not write a single word of that lyric, and the main hook of the melody sounds nothing like Sweet Little Sixteen.

Wonder why Mike didn't take Arc to court over claiming that lyric credit, since it's one of the most familiar songs in the Beach Boys discography.

It would be almost an impossible suit to win, if Brian/Murrayould have made an agreement to split copyright, there may be a case. The reason I was looking for if Brian ever suggested Mike wrote part of Surfin USA, is someone mentioned on another board they
saw Brian say it in an old interview, was trying to find that interview and found that.

I think in some ways it would be an even easier case to prove if Mike had chosen to file a claim against Arc for publishing and even whatever interest handles Chuck Berry's songwriting affairs, since it is absolute 100% fact that Chuck Berry had no involvement in writing the lyrics to Surfin USA, yet on many credits he's listed as writer for both music and lyrics - thanks to Murry back in the 60's. But it's a matter of who to take to court and how Mike I guess could have shown a court that he had a hand in writing those words.

Would have to get a lawyer to take the case, Chuck is official songwriter (at least by copyright), whether he had a hand in the lyrics or not (they were influenced by him). He would most likely have to get Brian to agree to go in with him so they could agree to split the lyric credits and any compensation. He would most likely end up with a  small perecentage even if he won.

[Rocker]

A note on Surfin USA, Brian says Mike wrote the lyrics with him here.  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/film/love-and-mercy/brian-wilson-interview/

“I never learnt how to surf because I was always afraid to try,” he says. “But my brother Dennis told me surfing was popular and why didn’t I write some songs about it? So Mike Love and I wrote Surfin (USA).’”

I believe David Marks testified that he remembered Mike writing the lyrics to Chug A Lug, hah. Not sure if he mentioned any other songs.

One song Mike give some specifics on is I Get Around, said he wrote the Round, Round Get Around I Get Around bit. Brian had 2 lines & they finished it off together. Read
this in an interview before the lawsuit.

I've seen this interview before, but I'm pretty sure that it's the interviewer's mistake.  Brian is talking about SURFIN', fits perfectly with the story we know (Dennis pestered Brian to write about surfing, so he and Mike wrote 'Surfin'.  The interviewer, who may not be a big BB's fan, put in the (USA) part himself, not knowing that they had an earlier song called 'Surfin.'   

Yeah, thanks. I was about to post the same. If you quote and add something that isn't in the original quote but implied (or implied by your understanding) you write that in brackets. But everything here speaks for a misunderstanding of the interviewer.
But thanks KingSurf! I hadn't seen that interview before!

[AndrewHickey]

The song was "Surfin'" and not "Surfin USA", that is correct.

Maybe someone can correct me if I'm remembering it wrong, but Surfin USA was not part of the 90's credits lawsuit, and for a very confusing maze of credits, trace the history of Surfin USA releases since it first came out. It was published/owned by Arc Music, which is where many of the Chess label's music resides, including Chuck Berry. Credits on various releases ranged from "Brian Wilson" to "Brian Wilson - Chuck Berry" to "Chuck Berry" and going so far as "words and music by Chuck Berry". The latter is obviously not the case, factually...so why does it appear that way?

Murry signed over the song to resolve the copyright claims with Chuck's Sweet Little Sixteen.

Which means, if Mike had wanted to claim credit for Surfin USA, he'd need to bring Arc and Chuck Berry into a court case, separate from where he took Brian to court over the 79 songs, since Chuck and Arc technically "own" Surfin USA ostensibly thanks to Murry 50 years ago. It's almost comical to see Arc's catalog of song titles and see one and only one Beach Boys song on that list, even though Chuck Berry did not write a single word of that lyric, and the main hook of the melody sounds nothing like Sweet Little Sixteen.

Wonder why Mike didn't take Arc to court over claiming that lyric credit, since it's one of the most familiar songs in the Beach Boys discography.

It would be almost an impossible suit to win, if Brian/Murrayould have made an agreement to split copyright, there may be a case. The reason I was looking for if Brian ever suggested Mike wrote part of Surfin USA, is someone mentioned on another board they
saw Brian say it in an old interview, was trying to find that interview and found that.

I think in some ways it would be an even easier case to prove if Mike had chosen to file a claim against Arc for publishing and even whatever interest handles Chuck Berry's songwriting affairs, since it is absolute 100% fact that Chuck Berry had no involvement in writing the lyrics to Surfin USA, yet on many credits he's listed as writer for both music and lyrics - thanks to Murry back in the 60's. But it's a matter of who to take to court and how Mike I guess could have shown a court that he had a hand in writing those words.

In that case, though, it's not a matter of who wrote it. The song was given in full to Berry because it was plagiarised from his work, and so I suspect it'd be like the Verve's Bittersweet Symphony, which is credited to Jagger/Richards because they used a sample of a string arrangement of The Last Time without permission... Jagger and Richards had nothing to do with writing the song, or even writing the bit of string arrangement used, but it still belongs to them now.

[Cam Mott]

Wonder why Mike didn't take Arc to court over claiming that lyric credit, since it's one of the most familiar songs in the Beach Boys discography.

Maybe because Arc hadn't promised him 30% of their award?

[SurfRiderHawaii]

The issue of what constitutes credit for writing a song is so grey and ambiguous. Add to that various legal maneuvering, an apparent/alleged dysfunctional, ill-advised situation in on Brian's legal side (e.g. stories of a pre-trial offer to settle that was apparently much more advantageous to Brian), and there aren't clear answers.

If a lawsuit like this were happening today, I think Brian would be much more well-advised and the outcome would have been somewhat if not quite different. I would guess it would be more of a cash settlement and maybe a few less credits. I could see them fighting on at least stuff like "Wouldn't It Be Nice."

With a more detailed, sharkish defense (and offense), a lot of other things could have been established, such as whether Mike ever had as much *musical* help on his solo writing credits as Brian did *lyrical* help on stuff without Mike's name, and if so, why Mike didn't feel he needed to credit those who helped with that. I've always tended to doubt Mike always *fully* fleshed out all the chord changes to songs like "Big Sur", "Everyone's In Love With You", "Goin' to the Beach", "Alone on Christmas Day", and so on.

But yeah, there are other examples of non-credits that are at least as substantive as WIBN. Some have argued Al should have gotten a little chunk of the arranging credit on "Sloop John B." There's Dennis with YASB.

I've always been surprised that Matthew Fisher's relative success in the infamous "Whiter Shade of Pale" case from several years back hasn't resulted in a lot more "contributors" coming out of the woodwork and claiming their contributions constituted some level of a co-writer credit. There was probably a lot of cross-pollination within the BBs where others might have warranted credits.

There seems to be two schools of thought. Like Roger Waters mostly sole credits on "Animals" despite extenive improvising by Rick Wright. Jagger/Richards is the same deal. If Wyman had a riff, he wasn't getting credit.

Some band give credit all the way around, even arranging is considered songwriting.  I prefer that method as credits can be divided up in pieces equally 50%.

Ah, you brought up Animals!  Nice!!!

Yeah, listen to the first one minute and 40 seconds of Sheep--it's an electric piano piece with a bunch of weird, jazzy chords (the kind that Rick wrote with and Roger didn't).  It's clearly at least somewhat 'composed' as well, as the droning bass part changes as the chords do. That piece has Rick all over it, and doesn't sound like anything that Roger wrote by himself...  yet the songwriting credit is all Roger.  I would lean towards giving Rick a credit there. 

Exactly! And I believe this led to Rick quiting the band. Roger totally screwed him.

Anyway, going to be very interesting to contrast Brian anf Mike's books regarding songwriting.

[guitarfool2002]

Wonder why Mike didn't take Arc to court over claiming that lyric credit, since it's one of the most familiar songs in the Beach Boys discography.

Maybe because Arc hadn't promised him 30% of their award?

If it were about restoring proper credit, and Mike cites Surfin USA years later as one that he didn't get credit for despite contributing lyrics, why the inaction? Arc is listed as publisher on the earliest release of the song, and eventually Chuck Berry got sole writing credit based on Murry's agreement rather than the actual credits, which is always brought up. If Mike wants his due credit for a song where he didn't get credit, there is one glaring example he didn't pursue. Unlike those 79 songs that got shaved down to 35 by the time the gavel came down.