What songs did Mike Love "steal" in the copyright trial against Brian?

[Bicyclerider]

If we believe Stephen Love and Rocky, there was a lot of lying on the Mike Love side of the copyright trial that resulted in numerous co-write credits for Mike Love on songs previously credited only to Brian.  That would mean Mike exaggerated or outright lied about some songs he was claiming credit for - otherwise what were the "smoking gun" lies that were told?  So for fun I've looked at two albums where a LOT of songs were summarily credited to Mike, and I've tried to suss out (purely speculation) which ones Mike "stole" from Brian and which were legit ("stolen" from Mike and now rectified).

The Today album:

7 songs now with a Love writing credit:

All Brian:  She Knows Me Too Well
                In the Back of My Mind
Looking at these two, I see preoccupations of Brian, particularly In the Back of My Mind - the sentiments expressed are pure Brian and would be anathema to Mike, no way he wrote those.

Probably all Brian:  Good to my Baby
Very simple lyric easily within Brian's writing ability although the theme isn't incompatible with Mike's typical writing style - still no "groovy" or "chicks" or typical Mikeisms.

Mike:  Don't Hurt my Little Sister (2nd verse is a dead giveaway, Mike all the way)
          Dance Dance Dance
          When I Grow Up
         
?Mike or Brian:  Rhonda - "out doin' in my head" - could be Mike as he sometimes stretches the limits of grammar and sense to make a lyric scan or rhyme, but could be a Brianism as well.  Unsure here.


Summer Days and Summer Nights:  6 songs granted a Love co-write

All Brian:  You're So Good to Me - again, very simple, very Brian, no Mikeisms
                Let Him Run Wild - a more complex lyric but I think still Brian

Clearly Mike was involved:  Salt Lake City
                                         California Girls
                                         Amusement Parks USA
                                         Girl from NYC

Any other songs where someone perhaps Mike was given inappropriate credit?  Like Wendy from All Summer Long?

[You Kane, You Commanded, You Conquered]

I'd take anything Rocky says with a grain, scratch that, a handful, of salt. You've got an interesting case though...

[Jim V.]

Enter Mam Cott to defend his master Michael in three, two.......

[Emily]

Aww. I thought the thread title was a punny "What songs did Mike love?"
Anyway, I always thought it was strange that writers used the lyrics to "Good to my Baby" and "She Knows me too Well" to analyze Brian. I always thought the machismo in those lyrics were much more Mikish, but I may be projecting a sensibility onto Brian that isn't there.
By the same token, I agree about Back of my Mind - the fact that Brian returns to it reinforces that for me - and You're so Good to Me.

[SurfRiderHawaii]

Obviously Stan, Steven and Rocky were not around when these songs were written.

So we have to wait for Rocky's book to find out how this conspiracy was carried out?

Or Brian's book, which we will no doubt be reading sooner than Rocky's.

[c-man]

"Good To My Baby": "and when I give her my love, it's between her and me" - to me, sounds more Mike than Brian.
"Ronda": Mike's on record as saying he came up with the opening line, "Well since she put me down, I been out-doin' in my head", which I can totally see.

Funny - just earlier tonight, I was thinking about three songs that totally prove the genius of Mike Love as lyricist: "Warmth Of The Sun", "Good Vibrations", and "Let The Wind Blow". In the case of "WOTS" and "LTWB", I'm not speaking just of the cleverness of the words themselves, but of the whole concept of both: in the first case, how his love has left him, but as long as he has the warmth of the sun, he'll be OK...and in the second, let all these things happen, but don't take her out of my life. There's a poignancy at work here that's akin to, say, Ray Davies at his best. And from "GV", we have a couple of lines like "she goes with me to a blossom world" and "I don't know where, but she sends me there" - very trippy. If only Mike had written two whole albums worth of this kind of stuff, or at least a dozen or so song lyrics of this quality spread throughout the career, I think his detractors (regardless of how they may feel about his role in the band's politics) would give him more credit on the aesthetic front. Regrettably, a lot of his lyrics since this time have amounted to, shall we say, well..."Some Of Your Love" and "Summer Of Love"...

[AndrewHickey]

Aww. I thought the thread title was a punny "What songs did Mike love?"
Anyway, I always thought it was strange that writers used the lyrics to "Good to my Baby" and "She Knows me too Well" to analyze Brian. I always thought the machismo in those lyrics were much more Mikish, but I may be projecting a sensibility onto Brian that isn't there.
By the same token, I agree about Back of my Mind - the fact that Brian returns to it reinforces that for me - and You're so Good to Me.

I don't think She Knows Me Too Well is at all machismo-ish, myself. It's talking about a theme that's *very* common in Brian's writing -- the flawed, hurtful man who is redeemed by the love of a woman who's much better than he is, and who's scared of losing her. We see that in everything from Don't Worry Baby to Don't Let Her Know She's An Angel.
Which isn't to say Mike didn't have a hand in writing it. We know that the way their collaborations worked at that time mostly involved Brian coming up with a track and title and Mike writing words to it -- it doesn't seem at all implausible that Mike would be able to finish a half-finished Brian lyric.
As for In The Back of My Mind, I'd bet that's 90% Brian's lyric, yes -- but there are a few bits in there that sound more Mike (notably "I try to rationalise/But some day I might realise" -- that sounds like Mike's too-clever-by-half rhyming to me), and remember that the 1975 version has distinctly different lyrics in places.
My personal guess is that Rocky is exactly as trustworthy as he seems -- not at all. I expect that in almost all the songs Mike won credit for, he made *some* contribution. But I'd also bet that if we knew what that contribution was, in some cases (maybe quite a few) many of us would think it wasn't worth him getting equal credit for it. I'd guess that some of the songs mentioned here, he only added a line or two (like with "good night baby/sleep tight baby), while on others he wrote the whole lyric or very nearly all.

[Cam Mott]

Aww. I thought the thread title was a punny "What songs did Mike love?"
Anyway, I always thought it was strange that writers used the lyrics to "Good to my Baby" and "She Knows me too Well" to analyze Brian. I always thought the machismo in those lyrics were much more Mikish, but I may be projecting a sensibility onto Brian that isn't there.
By the same token, I agree about Back of my Mind - the fact that Brian returns to it reinforces that for me - and You're so Good to Me.

I don't think She Knows Me Too Well is at all machismo-ish, myself. It's talking about a theme that's *very* common in Brian's writing -- the flawed, hurtful man who is redeemed by the love of a woman who's much better than he is, and who's scared of losing her. We see that in everything from Don't Worry Baby to Don't Let Her Know She's An Angel.
Which isn't to say Mike didn't have a hand in writing it. We know that the way their collaborations worked at that time mostly involved Brian coming up with a track and title and Mike writing words to it -- it doesn't seem at all implausible that Mike would be able to finish a half-finished Brian lyric.
As for In The Back of My Mind, I'd bet that's 90% Brian's lyric, yes -- but there are a few bits in there that sound more Mike (notably "I try to rationalise/But some day I might realise" -- that sounds like Mike's too-clever-by-half rhyming to me), and remember that the 1975 version has distinctly different lyrics in places.
My personal guess is that Rocky is exactly as trustworthy as he seems -- not at all. I expect that in almost all the songs Mike won credit for, he made *some* contribution. But I'd also bet that if we knew what that contribution was, in some cases (maybe quite a few) many of us would think it wasn't worth him getting equal credit for it. I'd guess that some of the songs mentioned here, he only added a line or two (like with "good night baby/sleep tight baby), while on others he wrote the whole lyric or very nearly all.

Which I believe has always been Mike's only claim, he made a contribution to some songs that was not credited. Sometimes he was un-credited for a line or two and sometimes he was un-credited for the entire lyric, he's usually been pretty specific about the extent of his contributions.  I believe Mike has said he was also under-credited for some songs that he did get credited for (like Asher claims he was).

[AndrewHickey]

Which I believe has always been Mike's only claim, he made a contribution to some songs that was not credited. Sometimes he was un-credited for a line or two and sometimes he was un-credited for the entire lyric, he's usually been pretty specific about the extent of his contributions.  I believe Mike has said he was also under-credited for some songs that he did get credited for (like Asher claims he was).

He's been specific about a handful of songs, but I don't think I've ever seen him talk about a lot of those mentioned in this thread. I don't know if he wrote the whole lyric for, say, Amusement Parks USA, or if he just suggested the change from "do amusement parks, USA" to "mess around at the park all day" in one chorus. (Not saying that was his actual contribution, just talking about the different levels it could have been -- I suspect in that case the lyric is all Mike's work).

[Cam Mott]

Which I believe has always been Mike's only claim, he made a contribution to some songs that was not credited. Sometimes he was un-credited for a line or two and sometimes he was un-credited for the entire lyric, he's usually been pretty specific about the extent of his contributions.  I believe Mike has said he was also under-credited for some songs that he did get credited for (like Asher claims he was).

He's been specific about a handful of songs, but I don't think I've ever seen him talk about a lot of those mentioned in this thread. I don't know if he wrote the whole lyric for, say, Amusement Parks USA, or if he just suggested the change from "do amusement parks, USA" to "mess around at the park all day" in one chorus. (Not saying that was his actual contribution, just talking about the different levels it could have been -- I suspect in that case the lyric is all Mike's work).

Right, I meant when he has discussed what his contributions were to specific songs he has usually been pretty specific as to how much or how little his contribution was.

[Bicyclerider]

And it's been shocking how little he contributed to some songs that he is now credited with a third or a half credit.  woudn't it be nice and 409 come to mind.

I'd like to see his response to the question of what he specifically added to You're So Good to Me, In the Back of my Mind, Good to My Baby, She Knows Me Too Well and Let Him Run Wild.

[AndrewHickey]

And it's been shocking how little he contributed to some songs that he is now credited with a third or a half credit.  woudn't it be nice and 409 come to mind.

I think the credit for 409 is fair if, as he claims, he came up with the "She's real fine, my 409" hook and "giddy-up 409" line, that's a good chunk of the finished song, both music and lyrics. The song would be unrecognisably different without them.
The Wouldn't it be Nice credit, though, is risible. Even assuming he wrote the two lines in question, which I think Asher disputes, they're an absolutely minimal part of the song.

[Emily]

Aww. I thought the thread title was a punny "What songs did Mike love?"
Anyway, I always thought it was strange that writers used the lyrics to "Good to my Baby" and "She Knows me too Well" to analyze Brian. I always thought the machismo in those lyrics were much more Mikish, but I may be projecting a sensibility onto Brian that isn't there.
By the same token, I agree about Back of my Mind - the fact that Brian returns to it reinforces that for me - and You're so Good to Me.

I don't think She Knows Me Too Well is at all machismo-ish, myself. It's talking about a theme that's *very* common in Brian's writing -- the flawed, hurtful man who is redeemed by the love of a woman who's much better than he is, and who's scared of losing her. We see that in everything from Don't Worry Baby to Don't Let Her Know She's An Angel.
Which isn't to say Mike didn't have a hand in writing it. We know that the way their collaborations worked at that time mostly involved Brian coming up with a track and title and Mike writing words to it -- it doesn't seem at all implausible that Mike would be able to finish a half-finished Brian lyric.
As for In The Back of My Mind, I'd bet that's 90% Brian's lyric, yes -- but there are a few bits in there that sound more Mike (notably "I try to rationalise/But some day I might realise" -- that sounds like Mike's too-clever-by-half rhyming to me), and remember that the 1975 version has distinctly different lyrics in places.
My personal guess is that Rocky is exactly as trustworthy as he seems -- not at all. I expect that in almost all the songs Mike won credit for, he made *some* contribution. But I'd also bet that if we knew what that contribution was, in some cases (maybe quite a few) many of us would think it wasn't worth him getting equal credit for it. I'd guess that some of the songs mentioned here, he only added a line or two (like with "good night baby/sleep tight baby), while on others he wrote the whole lyric or very nearly all.

I agree with your final paragraph.
According to Roger Christian, the lyrics to Don't Worry Baby were already written when Brian saw them in his notebook and wrote the music to them, so the writers using that for Brian analysis also gets on my nerves. Don't Worry Baby also doesn't have the 'I'm justifying being a jerk' element to it. The lyrics to Good to my Baby and She Knows Me too Well are two sides of the guy who's a jerk to his girlfriend and knows it. One day he's justifying it entirely and the next he's half justifying by saying 'she knows I love her even if I'm a jerk'. I agree that maybe Brian has that aspect, which used to be regularly glorified in song and film, but it seems more of an obvious Mike Love trait.
But, that doesn't mean I'm disagreeing with your final paragraph above. There's no smoking gun, here. We already know that Mike Love is credited due to five words in Wouldn't it be Nice, so what we know is what we've known for a long time: some of these songs, Mike Love was THE lyricist; some he tweaked or added a bit. Which are which and how much, we don't know.

If this is a double post, I'm sorry. My phone just did something strange.

[HeyJude]

One of the interesting things that (unfairly) undercuts Mike's claim to writing lyrics for this batch of songs is that he never talks about most of the songs. It's always the same three or four songs.

I think it was Howie Edelson that mentioned he has specifically asked Mike in interviews to comment on tracks from the "Wild Honey" album for instance (which weren't revised of course, I believe his name was always on those), and Mike never has anything to say about them.

Would Mike have even filed the suit if the batch of songs missing his name were all later era songs that weren't hits or popular, like "Aren't You Glad", "Add Some Music to Your Day", and "Funky Pretty"?

[Andrew G. Doe]

According to Roger Christian, the lyrics to Don't Worry Baby were already written when Brian saw them in his notebook and wrote the music to them...

Although it's never - as far as I'm aware - been explicitly stated, my impression is that all Christian's lyrics were lifted from the famous notebook. Certainly "Shut Down" was adapted and condensed from a much longer poem.

[SMiLE Brian]

Something is fishy from that lawsuit and maybe reading the lyrics is the key to the truth!

[guitarfool2002]

An issue I've had for a long time was the number of songs entered into the lawsuit, and how that number changed as it worked its way through the legal process.

Originally Mike filed for his claim to 79 songs where he wasn't credited properly. That list got trimmed down to 48 during the trial. The actual finding in the case was for 35 songs.

So my question has been what was it about the claims to those 44 songs (the original 79 minus the 35 decided in the verdict) which caused them to be taken out of the claim leading up to the court's decision? There was a quote from Mike that was along the lines of "I know what I wrote and Brian knows what I wrote", so if that's the case how did more than half of the songs Mike was originally filing for and claiming in the case for credit get taken off the list?

[SMiLE Brian]

He went for Mars and got the moon.

[Emily]

given the Wouldn't it be Nice thing, I'm guessing that he did go for Mars. He put in every song that he added a "hm" to. Then the songs that there was no evidence at all, or judge and/or jury decided that the "hm" didn't meet the standard were removed. Their standard was pretty little, given the credit for WIBN.
I agree, as expressed on the other thread, that giving the credit for WIBN is a pretty sketchy precedent, as I'd think it opens the door for lawsuits all over the place. Happily, that hasn't happened; though I'm surprised.

[guitarfool2002]

If it were a matter of a few song titles being taken off the list it might be chalked up to being par for the course of legal actions in general with cases like this. But when over half of the songs originally claimed get taken off the table and removed from the case, that raises eyebrows, especially factoring in the comments about both parties knowing who wrote what in the case. How 79 gets whittled down to 35 by the time it's over is a pretty significant drop, it's over half (or a majority) of the songs being claimed getting removed from the case! Something just never made sense with those numbers dropping so significantly if the case was so clear-cut going in.

[CenturyDeprived]

If it were a matter of a few song titles being taken off the list it might be chalked up to being par for the course of legal actions in general with cases like this. But when over half of the songs originally claimed get taken off the table and removed from the case, that raises eyebrows, especially factoring in the comments about both parties knowing who wrote what in the case. How 79 gets whittled down to 35 by the time it's over is a pretty significant drop, it's over half (or a majority) of the songs being claimed getting removed from the case! Something just never made sense with those numbers dropping so significantly if the case was so clear-cut going in.

What baffles, truly baffles the mind, is how Mike wouldn't think that the perception of overreaching with credits could be something that people would vilify and/or discredit him for, and would cause people have *legit* reason to cast doubt on many of the credits.

Due to *that* many claims being shot down, Mike must know that he overreached... and even if it's "all the lawyers' fault", I cannot understand how he doesn't connect the dots, seeing as he obviously has a deep wound and seems profoundly concerned about peoples' perception of him and his motivations.

Again, all it would take for him to rectify stuff like this, is to publicly own up to it and apologize for going too far.

[SMiLE Brian]

Yeah Howie asking him about credited songs from Wild honey and Mike having nothing to say could be most telling if did in fact overreach for credits.

[Rocker]

If it were a matter of a few song titles being taken off the list it might be chalked up to being par for the course of legal actions in general with cases like this. But when over half of the songs originally claimed get taken off the table and removed from the case, that raises eyebrows, especially factoring in the comments about both parties knowing who wrote what in the case. How 79 gets whittled down to 35 by the time it's over is a pretty significant drop, it's over half (or a majority) of the songs being claimed getting removed from the case! Something just never made sense with those numbers dropping so significantly if the case was so clear-cut going in.

Interesting point. I never knew about these statistics.
I guess one of the songs is "Surfin' USA" which Mike mentions from time to time to have written lyrics for (I believe Carl also said that in that 70s Beach Boys Story radio feature), yet Al mentioned in the "Wouldn't it be nice" documentary that he doubts Mike wrote it although he (Mike) "will tell you that he" did. And for years it was said that the brother of a girlfriend of Brian's (?) came up with the surf spots.

[CenturyDeprived]

I do wonder what Mike makes of Dennis' not seeming to have given much of a f*ck about not being credited on You Are So Beautiful.

[Lee Marshall]

GF...The missing songs from the list?  Just hand-claps on those ones.     Perhaps it was deemed that hand-claps weren't really meaningful enough as contributions to the actual melody and lyrics.  Close but not 'lightable' as cigars.

Smoke and mirrors aside...I don't believe him PERIOD.  Wouldn't It Be Nice, as Emily mentioned, is the perfect example of the validity of his royal heinous' claims.  Yes...he wrote some lyrics.  No goodnight baby/sleep tight baby don't qualify as a valid and dollar worthy contribution to anything other than lazy filler as the song fades out.

The judge was smoking something.