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Author Topic: Brian's Book released October 11th  (Read 25248 times)
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« Reply #200 on: April 08, 2016, 11:02:33 AM »

Say what you may about Landy (and there is indeed much negative aspects to him), however I wonder if Brian would still be blessing our world with his presence without Landy.

He wouldn't.  He likely would've joined Dennis at some point without Landy.  All three Wilson Bros would've been gone before the turn of the century. 

In the words of NPP song "started out as a good thing, turned into a headache." 
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« Reply #201 on: April 08, 2016, 11:05:14 AM »

I guess this discussion has been had multiple times, but I still disagree. Anyone given the power could have 'saved Brian's life' to the degree Landy did. No skill was needed. So, the people who decided to give someone the power to do it 'saved his life'. They could've found any guy on the street and said, "we'll give you a gazillion dollars a year to keep him alive" and he would have stayed alive and most likely have been better off.
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« Reply #202 on: April 08, 2016, 11:07:59 AM »

Say what you may about Landy (and there is indeed much negative aspects to him), however I wonder if Brian would still be blessing our world with his presence without Landy.

He wouldn't.  He likely would've joined Dennis at some point without Landy.  All three Wilson Bros would've been gone before the turn of the century.  

In the words of NPP song "started out as a good thing, turned into a headache."  

Being well aware of the scumbaggery and damage that Landy later inflicted on Brian... It has occurred to me, as I'm sure it's occurred to others (including, I'd imagine the BB's family members), that if Brian had been on the same self-destructive path for just one more year without Landy - or someone else who could have gotten results with getting Brian sober - being in the picture, the timing would have overlapped with the timeline of Dennis passing away... and the ways in which an off-the-wagon Brian might likely have reacted to that tragic event could very, very likely have been catastrophic to himself. If there's one thing we can be thankful for, it's for the timing of Brian's sobriety in relation to Denny's passing.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2016, 11:10:46 AM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #203 on: April 08, 2016, 11:19:45 AM »

I guess this discussion has been had multiple times, but I still disagree. Anyone given the power could have 'saved Brian's life' to the degree Landy did. No skill was needed. So, the people who decided to give someone the power to do it 'saved his life'. They could've found any guy on the street and said, "we'll give you a gazillion dollars a year to keep him alive" and he would have stayed alive and most likely have been better off.

At that point in Brian's life, it's difficult to determine of "any guy off the street" could have done that. If Brian could have figured a way out of the grasp of someone with as unorthodox tactics as Landy (someone who didn't deeply scare him, preying on his fear of Murry-like domineering figures), Brian likely would have snuck out and fell back off the wagon, I would tend to think.

I don't know what results could have been gotten in 1982 if a team of doctors at UCLA (or a mental health facility/sanitarium - I hate that word, but that's probably an accurate word for the era) could have gotten either, by adhering to the official "rules" and not practicing all sorts of unorthodox manipulation. Would Brian have stayed put and gotten sober, and remained that way? I don't know the ins and outs of how a more traditional non-Landy approach during the early 1980s, how that could have played out... but I don't think it's a given that someone else could have been found.

That's not to say that someone else (or a team of folks) couldn't have been found on the planet who could have saved Brian. But who knows who or where that person/people would have been. As a hypothetical, a person who could have gotten results could have been a non-scumbag doctor somewhere in Sweden, for all we know. But how the family, or anyone for that matter, was supposed to magically "know" the location of such a doctor, or to be able to find someone who would get results, would ultimately have been a matter of chance, and trial and error. I know they tried many people, and the one other non-Landy doctor who got results died in a rock-climbing accident.

I just don't think we can conclusively say that anyone off the street could have done it, or even a seasoned medical team at UCLA. Possibly, but possibly not. I do, however, think that there WERE people other than Landy on planet earth at the time in 1982 who could have gotten results.  They just weren't necessarily easily findable.
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« Reply #204 on: April 08, 2016, 11:26:16 AM »

One of Landy's stipulations for taking Brian on again was that he had total control over Brian's life. Given that degree of carte blanche, I think pretty much anyone would have saved his life.
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« Reply #205 on: April 08, 2016, 11:30:43 AM »

I guess this discussion has been had multiple times, but I still disagree. Anyone given the power could have 'saved Brian's life' to the degree Landy did. No skill was needed. So, the people who decided to give someone the power to do it 'saved his life'. They could've found any guy on the street and said, "we'll give you a gazillion dollars a year to keep him alive" and he would have stayed alive and most likely have been better off.

At that point in Brian's life, it's difficult to determine of "any guy off the street" could have done that. If Brian could have figured a way out of the grasp of someone with as unorthodox tactics as Landy (someone who didn't deeply scare him, preying on his fear of Murry-like domineering figures), Brian likely would have snuck out and fell back off the wagon, I would tend to think.

I don't know what results could have been gotten in 1982 if a team of doctors at UCLA (or a mental health facility/sanitarium - I hate that word, but that's probably an accurate word for the era) could have gotten either, by adhering to the official "rules" and not practicing all sorts of unorthodox manipulation. Would Brian have stayed put and gotten sober, and remained that way? I don't know the ins and outs of how a more traditional non-Landy approach during the early 1980s, how that could have played out... but I don't think it's a given that someone else could have been found.

That's not to say that someone else (or a team of folks) couldn't have been found on the planet who could have saved Brian. But who knows who or where that person/people would have been. As a hypothetical, a person who could have gotten results could have been a non-scumbag doctor somewhere in Sweden, for all we know. But how the family, or anyone for that matter, was supposed to magically "know" the location of such a doctor, or to be able to find someone who would get results, would ultimately have been a matter of chance, and trial and error. I know they tried many people, and the one other non-Landy doctor who got results died in a rock-climbing accident.

I just don't think we can conclusively say that anyone off the street could have done it, or even a seasoned medical team at UCLA. Possibly, but possibly not. I do, however, think that there WERE people other than Landy on planet earth at the time in 1982 who could have gotten results.  They just weren't necessarily easily findable.
As far as I can tell, the practices of Landy that actually benefitted Brian were restricted to hiring a bunch of guys to control him around the clock. Give me the money and I can do that.
The guy who died was getting results the right way.
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« Reply #206 on: April 08, 2016, 11:42:00 AM »

I guess this discussion has been had multiple times, but I still disagree. Anyone given the power could have 'saved Brian's life' to the degree Landy did. No skill was needed. So, the people who decided to give someone the power to do it 'saved his life'. They could've found any guy on the street and said, "we'll give you a gazillion dollars a year to keep him alive" and he would have stayed alive and most likely have been better off.

At that point in Brian's life, it's difficult to determine of "any guy off the street" could have done that. If Brian could have figured a way out of the grasp of someone with as unorthodox tactics as Landy (someone who didn't deeply scare him, preying on his fear of Murry-like domineering figures), Brian likely would have snuck out and fell back off the wagon, I would tend to think.

I don't know what results could have been gotten in 1982 if a team of doctors at UCLA (or a mental health facility/sanitarium - I hate that word, but that's probably an accurate word for the era) could have gotten either, by adhering to the official "rules" and not practicing all sorts of unorthodox manipulation. Would Brian have stayed put and gotten sober, and remained that way? I don't know the ins and outs of how a more traditional non-Landy approach during the early 1980s, how that could have played out... but I don't think it's a given that someone else could have been found.

That's not to say that someone else (or a team of folks) couldn't have been found on the planet who could have saved Brian. But who knows who or where that person/people would have been. As a hypothetical, a person who could have gotten results could have been a non-scumbag doctor somewhere in Sweden, for all we know. But how the family, or anyone for that matter, was supposed to magically "know" the location of such a doctor, or to be able to find someone who would get results, would ultimately have been a matter of chance, and trial and error. I know they tried many people, and the one other non-Landy doctor who got results died in a rock-climbing accident.

I just don't think we can conclusively say that anyone off the street could have done it, or even a seasoned medical team at UCLA. Possibly, but possibly not. I do, however, think that there WERE people other than Landy on planet earth at the time in 1982 who could have gotten results.  They just weren't necessarily easily findable.
As far as I can tell, the practices of Landy that actually benefitted Brian were restricted to hiring a bunch of guys to control him around the clock. Give me the money and I can do that.
The guy who died was getting results the right way.

Right, I agree that the guy who died was probably getting results the right way. Although I don't know much about what his "program" entailed. Obviously he was doing something right that clicked with Brian (in a way that other non-Landy doctors that were tried out did not)... but I am unaware of the details.

That said, I think a doctor's care and program (in a situation such as this) is a very specific kind of thing that either works or it doesn't. Landy *did* give Brian some "privileges", like letting him smoke the occasional joint, or things like that. Maybe that type of thing kept Brian able to deal with other BS, just as an example. Take that out of the equation by putting a different doctor in charge... maybe Brian freaks out and has some other awful episode. Again, just an example.

Landy's tactics ultimately became extremely, extremely troubling and disgusting, but I believe that something he did at the onset of Brian's care in 1982, whatever way in which he manipulated Brian to get sober, to get through to Brian that sobriety was something that Brian needed to do, and for Brian to be fully aware that he was very nearly going to have been the next Elvis, obviously clicked in Brian's head. Somehow, Landy got through to Brian mentally and emotionally on some deep level... 24-hour around-the-clock surf nazis aside. I think it's not logical to say that any old group of doltish thugs around the clock would have unquestionably just gotten results for years.

Something Landy did worked - at first. I'm not condoning Landy's later actions... I think he proved himself to be a huge scumbag, without question. But there's no evidence that "any" doctor or "any" group of people surrounding Brian would have gotten results.  Some other doctors could have likely gotten results, but I'm sure that another group of other doctors would have failed. The same conversation could be had about Dennis, and how difficult it would have been for any number of doctors to have had success getting him on the wagon using conventional methods.

Landy also seemingly tried really hard to convince Brian (and I think he did successfully convince him at the time) that he (Landy) himself was Brian's friend, who was going above and beyond out of love for Brian. I think Brian believed that for a time, and maybe still believes it in part... and perhaps that knowledge (even if it was a lie or a half-truth), feeling that a "cool" friend doctor dude was on his side, helped Brian better able to stay sober. Landy's manipulative tactics were very specific, and while other doctors could surely have found a more legit and ethical way of getting results, I'm sure others would have not worked.  The "any" doctor could have done it with 24-hour care doesn't really hold water, IMO.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2016, 11:55:00 AM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #207 on: April 08, 2016, 11:54:07 AM »

Maybe you're right that he did something special and unique and I don't see it. I'm inclined to think of proof from the other direction though - you'd have to prove to me that Landy did something special and unique before I give him accolades, rather than I give him accolades until it's disproven that he deserves them.
While I'm a terribly PC person, I don't think everyone should get a trophy just for showing up.
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« Reply #208 on: April 08, 2016, 12:02:16 PM »

Maybe you're right that he did something special and unique and I don't see it. I'm inclined to think of proof from the other direction though - you'd have to prove to me that Landy did something special and unique before I give him accolades, rather than I give him accolades until it's disproven that he deserves them.
While I'm a terribly PC person, I don't think everyone should get a trophy just for showing up.

Please know... I'm certainly not trying to give Landy any "accolades"! My true and absolute hatred of a significant amount of the man's actions is real, but I can also see how there were some things that worked for a time. I wonder how your opinion (or public opinion in general) would be different if Landy got Brian sober in 1982, and then (heaven forbid, just stating this for the sake of argument) both of them tragically perished in an accident a couple years later, before the real awful scumbaggery started. It's hard to separate the awful stuff from the less awful stuff, but I think it's possible to believe that some elements of Landy's initial plan "worked" and to still not give him "accolades" or any type of retroactive award.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2016, 12:10:12 PM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #209 on: April 08, 2016, 12:09:12 PM »

Maybe you're right that he did something special and unique and I don't see it. I'm inclined to think of proof from the other direction though - you'd have to prove to me that Landy did something special and unique before I give him accolades, rather than I give him accolades until it's disproven that he deserves them.
While I'm a terribly PC person, I don't think everyone should get a trophy just for showing up.

Please know... I'm certainly not trying to give Landy any "accolades"! My true and absolute hatred of a significant amount of the man's actions is real, but I can also see how there were some things that worked for a time. I wonder how you (or public opinion in general) would have been different if Landy got Brian sober in 1982, and then (heaven forbid, just stating this for the sake of argument) both of them tragically perished in an accident a couple years later, before the real awful scumbaggery started. It's hard to separate the awful stuff from the less awful stuff, but I think it's possible to believe that some elements of Landy's initial plan "worked" and to still not give him "accolades" or any type of retroactive award. 
In the scenario you depict, I'm sure my feelings would be different, but also my information would be different. But I read stuff from the first Landy period and consider it a destructive and degrading form of therapy. I would not argue with someone who said that the first Landy period contributed to any sense that BW needed to be saved during the second Landy period.
Having grown up surrounded by the mentally ill, some receiving good treatment, some not so good, I can only think of Landy's methodology across the board as destructive. The only benefit is that BW was separated from substances, but even the method of doing that probably contributed to his further mental deterioration, so Landy's practices that helped BW's physical health, even at the beginning, were simultaneously wreaking havoc on his mental health. And, again, I think the contribution to his physical health only required the capacity to force him to do or not do things. The attacks on his mental required special skills and those skills are what Landy had.
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« Reply #210 on: April 08, 2016, 12:15:21 PM »

Maybe you're right that he did something special and unique and I don't see it. I'm inclined to think of proof from the other direction though - you'd have to prove to me that Landy did something special and unique before I give him accolades, rather than I give him accolades until it's disproven that he deserves them.
While I'm a terribly PC person, I don't think everyone should get a trophy just for showing up.

Please know... I'm certainly not trying to give Landy any "accolades"! My true and absolute hatred of a significant amount of the man's actions is real, but I can also see how there were some things that worked for a time. I wonder how you (or public opinion in general) would have been different if Landy got Brian sober in 1982, and then (heaven forbid, just stating this for the sake of argument) both of them tragically perished in an accident a couple years later, before the real awful scumbaggery started. It's hard to separate the awful stuff from the less awful stuff, but I think it's possible to believe that some elements of Landy's initial plan "worked" and to still not give him "accolades" or any type of retroactive award.  
In the scenario you depict, I'm sure my feelings would be different, but also my information would be different. But I read stuff from the first Landy period and consider it a destructive and degrading form of therapy. I would not argue with someone who said that the first Landy period contributed to any sense that BW needed to be saved during the second Landy period.
Having grown up surrounded by the mentally ill, some receiving good treatment, some not so good, I can only think of Landy's methodology across the board as destructive. The only benefit is that BW was separated from substances, but even the method of doing that probably contributed to his further mental deterioration, so Landy's practices that helped BW's physical health, even at the beginning, were simultaneously wreaking havoc on his mental health. And, again, I think the contribution to his physical health only required the capacity to force him to do or not do things. The attacks on his mental required special skills and those skills are what Landy had.

I agree that the depths of how much damage Landy ultimately wreaked on Brian are incalculable, and I don't feel good about pointing out what I feel to be several isolated fortunate actions that Landy did which led to Brian making it past 1982. I would prefer to just dismiss every single thing Landy did and to blanket think he was a piece of crap who did absolutely nothing of value, but it's hard for me to feel as conclusive about it as you.

To me, it's a similar argument that could be made for Murry. Would Brian have had the same deep, deep drive and unimaginable fear of failure to be as insanely prolific as he was in the 1960s without Murry being as much of a horrifying abusive d-bag to Brian? I'm giving Murry absolutely no awards or accolades, but I think it's obvious that even if Brian had become a famous musician, if you take Murry's abuse out of the equation, maybe Brian isn't quite as motivated by fear/failure in quite the same way, and even if Brian had nevertheless started a band, who knows how his output would have been affected.  Brian himself has stated how Murry's abuse gave him an unimaginably insane amount of drive.  It's complicated.

That said, I truly hope that no parent ever tries to emulate what Murry did out of some misguided belief that this is a way to get your child to be a hitmaking, moneymaking machine, much as I truly hope that no shrink ever tries to emulate Landy's actions in any way, shape or form.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2016, 12:21:14 PM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #211 on: April 08, 2016, 12:25:41 PM »

Maybe you're right that he did something special and unique and I don't see it. I'm inclined to think of proof from the other direction though - you'd have to prove to me that Landy did something special and unique before I give him accolades, rather than I give him accolades until it's disproven that he deserves them.
While I'm a terribly PC person, I don't think everyone should get a trophy just for showing up.

Please know... I'm certainly not trying to give Landy any "accolades"! My true and absolute hatred of a significant amount of the man's actions is real, but I can also see how there were some things that worked for a time. I wonder how you (or public opinion in general) would have been different if Landy got Brian sober in 1982, and then (heaven forbid, just stating this for the sake of argument) both of them tragically perished in an accident a couple years later, before the real awful scumbaggery started. It's hard to separate the awful stuff from the less awful stuff, but I think it's possible to believe that some elements of Landy's initial plan "worked" and to still not give him "accolades" or any type of retroactive award.  
In the scenario you depict, I'm sure my feelings would be different, but also my information would be different. But I read stuff from the first Landy period and consider it a destructive and degrading form of therapy. I would not argue with someone who said that the first Landy period contributed to any sense that BW needed to be saved during the second Landy period.
Having grown up surrounded by the mentally ill, some receiving good treatment, some not so good, I can only think of Landy's methodology across the board as destructive. The only benefit is that BW was separated from substances, but even the method of doing that probably contributed to his further mental deterioration, so Landy's practices that helped BW's physical health, even at the beginning, were simultaneously wreaking havoc on his mental health. And, again, I think the contribution to his physical health only required the capacity to force him to do or not do things. The attacks on his mental required special skills and those skills are what Landy had.

I agree that the depths of how much damage Landy ultimately wreaked on Brian are incalculable, and I don't feel good about pointing out what I feel to be several isolated fortunate actions that Landy did which led to Brian making it past 1982. I would prefer to just dismiss every single thing Landy did and to blanket think he was a piece of crap who did absolutely nothing of value, but it's hard for me to feel as conclusive about it as you.

To me, it's a similar argument that could be made for Murry. Would Brian have had the same deep drive and fear of failure to be as insanely prolific as he was in the 1960s without Murry being as much of a horrifying abusive d-bag to Brian? I'm giving Murry absolutely no awards or accolades, but I think it's obvious that even if Brian had become a famous musician, if you take Murry's abuse out of the equation, maybe Brian isn't quite as motivated by fear/failure in quite the same way, and even if Brian had nevertheless started a band, who knows how his output would have been affected.  Brian himself has stated how Murry's abuse gave him an unimaginable insane amount of drive.

That said, I truly hope that no parent ever tries to emulate what Murry did out of some misguided belief that this is a way to get your child to be a hitmaking, moneymaking machine, much as I truly hope that no shrink ever tries to emulate Landy's actions in any way, shape or form.
I agree with what you say about Murry. Though, for me, the trade-off is easy - I'd be much happier thinking that someone was not tortured by their parent and the world lost some excellent music than the reverse.
Regarding Landy, we may differ in our understanding of the nature of BW's needs at that time. I think his mental health issues were vastly more critical than his physical or substance issues and that a lot of stuff, including Landy, in the 70s exacerbated his mental health issues to the degree that his physical health and his life may have been threatened. So I consider Landy part of the cause of the emergency; and Landy helped remove one of the symptoms while continuing to exacerbate the cause.
In these discussions, I see that some people focus on BW's drug-usage. To me, that is wholly secondary.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2016, 12:44:20 PM by Emily » Logged
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« Reply #212 on: April 08, 2016, 01:12:16 PM »

I can't help but find it anything other than deeply amusing that the poster doing the lion's share of the stirring is someone who recently flounced off in hugely public manner, vowing never to return. Epic fail.  Grin

Because he thought you were behind it!  Cheesy
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« Reply #213 on: April 08, 2016, 01:44:09 PM »

As I understand it - correct me if I'm wrong - but it was mainly Carl who pushed to get help for Brian in '82, and that help turned out to be Landy. I wonder if he had any misgivings about bringing Landy back? Because I can't believe Carl would have made this move if he had any inkling Landy was going to have total control over Brian forever, and never willingly let go. I still think the stress of dealing with the Landy situation took a few years off of Carl's life. And I wonder what Brian's book will have to say about Carl's part in the whole episode; in the movie, it was barely touched upon.
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« Reply #214 on: April 08, 2016, 01:47:00 PM »

I can't help but find it anything other than deeply amusing that the poster doing the lion's share of the stirring is someone who recently flounced off in hugely public manner, vowing never to return. Epic fail.  Grin

Because he thought you were behind it!  Cheesy

I'm guessing someone's feeling pretty silly right now...
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« Reply #215 on: April 08, 2016, 06:57:33 PM »

i don't think just anyone could have saved brian's life in any meaningful way back in 83-86. brian worked with landy because 1) he trusted him and 2) he fought for brian against the other beach boys. brian has said many times those 2 reasons were key to him working with landy the 2nd time. yes, later things went overboard but at the beginniong of the 2nd round with landy brian would not trust  just "anyone". it would not have worked.
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« Reply #216 on: April 08, 2016, 07:00:33 PM »

I know that it's common to refer to the WIBN book as Landy's book, but Todd Gold was the actual writer. He's ghost-written a slew of celebrity biographies  (http://www.amazon.com/Todd-Gold/e/B001ITYC0Q), and I wish we had him on record to talk about how that book came about and what the process of writing it was like. How much access did he have to Brian? I'm guessing not much since so many stories in the book are re-workings of other articles on the Beach Boys but rewritten in first person to make it sound like Brian was telling the story (Gold admitted as much).
What was it like to have everything vetted by Gene Landy? Has something like this happened with any other biographies he's ghost-written?  

Gold has spoken very little about the book over the years and his answers have been kind of vague. I'm guessing that since the book was a subject of a lawsuit, we may never get the full story.

He just wrote the new and bestselling Dick Van Dyke autobiography so he still has his reputation to think of as well.  
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« Reply #217 on: April 08, 2016, 07:53:55 PM »

Hasn't Gold said he had something six hours of tape by Brian for the book?  Apparently not nearly enough.

At one time there was a manuscript of WIBN for auction on Ebay from a supposed former housekeeper of Landy supposedly with notes by Brian in the margins. Something like that. Anybody remember anything like that?  Everything on Ebay is totally legit and authentic don't you know.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #218 on: April 08, 2016, 08:51:09 PM »

... Because I can't believe Carl would have made this move if he had any inkling Landy was going to have total control over Brian forever, and never willingly let go.

Sorry to keep quoting you in this thread, Lonely Summer. The last time I did it in this thread I thought there was a posse out for my head. I'm not singling your quote out, I just want to ask a question and make a point regarding it.

I never understood the train of thought that "Landy was never going away" or "so-and-so saved Brian from Landy" or "they couldn't get Brian away from Landy". I don't understand why Carl, or a member of Brian's immediate family, couldn't at any time terminate Landy's services.

When you contract a psychologist or psychiatrist or any medical professional for treatment, yes, there are certain terms. You sometimes agree to potential treatments (i.e one-on-one therapy, group therapy, drug therapy, special diets, special living conditions, etc.), you sometimes agree to one or a number of different doctors (in the same facility/practice), and you obviously agree to the fees. The one thing that is usually not a part of the contract or agreement is the term of the services. Yes, the doctor might recommend a preferred length of time for the treatment to be effective, but these terms are usually weeks, maybe months, certainly not years. Nobody is going to agree or lock into that amount of time, and I don't know if it's legal anyway. Does anybody know if Brian Wilson entered into a medical contract with Eugene Landy - for so many years?

So, why did Carl wait so long before he "rescued" or "saved" Brian from Landy? Well, there might be two reasons. First, look at Brian's life. Maybe Carl looked at Brain's physical health and saw that he was in the best physical shape of his adult life. Maybe he looked at Brian's lifestyle; Brian was off drugs, he was was well-groomed, well-dressed, got his driver's license back and was driving from place to place, had a nice house, was eating healthy meals, was actually going places, visiting places that were broadening his horizons, and had friends (if you want to call the staff who hung out with him friends). Maybe Carl looked at Brian's musical output - one critically acclaimed solo album, another "in-the-can", contributing to Beach Boys' albums, and being present for almost all of The Beach Boys' TV appearances including videos.

Or, second, maybe Carl looked at the alternatives to Landy and everything mentioned above. Sure, Carl could've initiated another search for a doctor who could "save" Brian. Or, maybe Carl thought the alternative was having Brian declared incompetent which meant a conservatorship. And, then there's the least desirable alternative...institutionalization. When Carl looked at those alternatives, maybe he thought the Landy 24 hour therapy - with all its negatives - was the lesser of the three evils.

For the first 6-7 years, the major complaints about Landy's treatment were issues like Brian not accepting or returning phone calls, Brian not spending time with his family, Brian not "liking" the Beach Boys, Landy's staff shadowing Brian, and Brian saying things about Landy like calling him his manager, co-songwriter, and producer. I don't know when the issue of over-medicating became a concern. Obviously they knew Brian was on "something", but did they know about the potential side effects or why the drugs were being prescribed (illegally) in the first place?

So my question is, why didn't Carl intervene in 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, or whenever? He didn't need Brian's permission or cooperation. If Brian objected and refused to stop seeing Landy, Carl could've petitioned the court at any time, and, in my opinion, he would've won. I believe Carl could've presented enough evidence, with witnesses, to find Brian not able to care for himself. Hell, Carl's best witness would've been Dr. Landy himself. If Landy says that Brian needed his 24 hour therapy program, Landy is making Carl's case for him. If Landy says that Brian, because of Landy's successful treatment, is perfectly able to function in society without him, then fine, it's no longer necessary for Landy to treat Brian. Oh, it might've gotten ugly, and it definitely would've been painful, but it would've ended the relationship with Landy.

But Carl didn't do that. He didn't intervene. But he could've have. At any time. Again, I'm not casting blame, just discussing.

As far as Brian's will and Landy illegally involving himself in the changing of the will; of course that's important and despicable. But, the issue of the will alone, the legal evidence it provided, and the "gotcha" Landy aspect, wasn't necessary for Carl or anyone to "save" Brian. Carl DIDN'T NEED the will evidence to terminate Landy. As I mentioned above, Carl and family could've gotten Brian away from Landy in the previous 8-9 years, based on Brian's condition, other alternative treatments, and the fact that there was no term (months, years) for the treatment. What the will issue ultimately did was provide a way to prosecute Landy. Now, LEGALLY Landy could not treat Brian, almost like a restraining order. It also aided in the prosecuting of Landy for other illegalities which forced him to surrender his license, and I believe there was a also a financial settlement (I stand to be corrected on that).  
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Emily
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« Reply #219 on: April 08, 2016, 09:18:00 PM »

Or, maybe Carl thought the alternative was having Brian declared incompetent which meant a conservatorship.
My understanding is that they did get a conservatorship and made Landy the conservator. They could have kept the conservatorship and hired Landy under 'normal' arrangements, but chose not to. So far, I've only come up with one interpretation of that choice. I'm happy to hear others.
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Sheriff John Stone
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« Reply #220 on: April 08, 2016, 09:43:52 PM »

Or, maybe Carl thought the alternative was having Brian declared incompetent which meant a conservatorship.
My understanding is that they did get a conservatorship and made Landy the conservator. They could have kept the conservatorship and hired Landy under 'normal' arrangements, but chose not to. So far, I've only come up with one interpretation of that choice. I'm happy to hear others.

It's my understanding that Landy was "employed", not appointed. Isn't a conservator appointed by a judge after a hearing has been conducted? Again, I'm asking questions, I don't know the answers.
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GhostyTMRS
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« Reply #221 on: April 08, 2016, 09:49:39 PM »

Part of the reason for that, SJS, may be that during the 80's (based on anecdotal evidence) The Beach Boys only interacted with each other while on stage or in front of the cameras. There was no relationship, no friendship, no small talk, no nothing. Despite being family in some cases, there was no communication. This is very common with bands that have had long careers and been through the mill. It wasn't just Brian who was isolated from the group, they were all isolated from each other, and willingly so.
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Sheriff John Stone
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« Reply #222 on: April 08, 2016, 10:06:14 PM »

Part of the reason for that, SJS, may be that during the 80's (based on anecdotal evidence) The Beach Boys only interacted with each other while on stage or in front of the cameras. There was no relationship, no friendship, no small talk, no nothing. Despite being family in some cases, there was no communication. This is very common with bands that have had long careers and been through the mill. It wasn't just Brian who was isolated from the group, they were all isolated from each other, and willingly so.

Excellent points, GhostlyTMRS, and I agree with you. I often thought it would be interesting and fascinating to know just what interactions - or lack of - the Beach Boys had among themselves...off stage.

However, Landy was a very unique case, and I would think, especially as Beach Boys - an important "subject". We know that none of The Beach Boys liked Landy, at least after a year or so. I would think that paying a significant part of Landy's fees had to sting. And, most of all, they wanted Brian back in the fold. While, again I agree with you that communication wasn't their strong suit, Brian Wilson was and always will be a priority, and I think they were united in their attitude toward Landy, even discussing it.
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Emily
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« Reply #223 on: April 08, 2016, 10:27:42 PM »

Or, maybe Carl thought the alternative was having Brian declared incompetent which meant a conservatorship.
My understanding is that they did get a conservatorship and made Landy the conservator. They could have kept the conservatorship and hired Landy under 'normal' arrangements, but chose not to. So far, I've only come up with one interpretation of that choice. I'm happy to hear others.

It's my understanding that Landy was "employed", not appointed. Isn't a conservator appointed by a judge after a hearing has been conducted? Again, I'm asking questions, I don't know the answers.
I've read a lot of articles that refer to him as Wilson's 'legal guardian.' I never checked the sources, so maybe that's a myth. It's also my understanding that Marilyn had, previously, a blanket POA. I'd assumed the 'legal guardianship' was established by that route. Wilson has said that Landy made threats to 'put him on the funny farm' if he wasn't compliant, so I took that as evidence that Landy had legal leverage.
If anyone has full knowledge of Landy's legal status, that would be good to know.
Perhaps the book will tell us.
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« Reply #224 on: April 08, 2016, 10:53:52 PM »

I know that it's common to refer to the WIBN book as Landy's book, but Todd Gold was the actual writer. He's ghost-written a slew of celebrity biographies  (http://www.amazon.com/Todd-Gold/e/B001ITYC0Q), and I wish we had him on record to talk about how that book came about and what the process of writing it was like. How much access did he have to Brian? I'm guessing not much since so many stories in the book are re-workings of other articles on the Beach Boys but rewritten in first person to make it sound like Brian was telling the story (Gold admitted as much).

We do - shortly after the book was published and everyone was ripping him a deserved new one for using other people's writing without so much as crediting them, he sent a letter, to Billboard I think, explaining he had to do that as Brian's responses were mostly very terse, so he had to flesh out the "narrative". Brian himself has stated that all he did was "a bunch of interviews", and I'm not alone in being told that those responses consisted largely of "yes", "no" or "I don't remember". Whichever way you slice it, a despicable excuse for a book.
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