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Author Topic: Mike Love book out in September  (Read 56755 times)
Debbie KL
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« Reply #175 on: April 14, 2016, 10:57:04 AM »

I think the whole point of the pejorative nature of calling a legit band a "tribute band" is that they're not, but that they resemble one due to having few original members, or because of the middling quality of the show. Hence people even referring to, say, a McCartney show as a McCartney tribute band, etc.
Macca is the leader of the world's highest paid, biggest drawing Beatles tribute band.

What about this point are you missing?  Paul's band tours under the name "Paul McCartney," not "the Beatles" - as Brian has toured for many years under his own name with his band, not "the Beach Boys."  Paul and Brian both perform material that was recorded under their own names.  Is this really so difficult for you?
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« Reply #176 on: April 14, 2016, 11:02:27 AM »

I don't think we can assume all of those actions each involved a corporate vote. I'm not even sure that succession of events is accurate.

And anyone who isn't on the board of directors or involved in their corporate setup suggesting "it's very doable" can't possibly know what they're talking about. Technically possible? Yes. "Very Doable." Nah, I don't think so. Not any more doable than every member of this board never having a single disagreement or argument again. Is that technically possible to undertake? Yes. Is it realistic to suggest it's "very doable?" No.

I've talked to numerous folks who are as familiar with the BRI setup and the BBs history (and history of litigation) as anyone can be outside of the actual organization, and every person I've talked to agrees that even if Brian, Al, and Carl's estate all voted 3-1 to revoke Mike's license, Mike could tie it up in litigation for YEARS. How successful he would be in the end, I don't know. But there's are a ton of potential causes for civil action that could arise from such an event, and such an upheaval within BRI could easily result in litigation that would outlive some of the band members.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2016, 11:10:32 AM by HeyJude » Logged

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« Reply #177 on: April 14, 2016, 11:09:05 AM »

I don't think we can assume all of those actions each involved a corporate vote. I'm not even sure that succession of events is accurate.

And anyone who isn't on the board of directors or involved in their corporate setup suggesting "it's very doable" can't possibly know what they're talking about. Technically possible? Yes. "Very Doable." Nah, I don't think so. Not any more doable than every member of this board never having a single disagreement or argument again. Is that technically possible to undertake? Yes. Is it realistic to suggest it's "very doable?" No.

I've talked to numerous folks who are as familiar with the BRI setup and the BBs history (and history of litigation) as anyone can be outside of the actual organization, and every person I've talked to agrees that even if Brian, Al, and Carl's estate all voted 3-1 to revoke Mike's license, Mike could tie it up in litigation for YEARS. How successful he would be in the end, I don't know. But there's are a ton of potential causes for civil action that could arise from such an event, and such an upheaval within BRI setup could easily result in litigation that would outlive some of the band members.

Agreed, and well-said.  Making the leap that anyone here knows the inner-workings of BRI and how the licensing work is rather silly...and if anyone here would happen to know, one might assume they wouldn't be able to talk about it, since these actions would not be public and subject to confidentiality.
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HeyJude
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« Reply #178 on: April 14, 2016, 11:15:27 AM »

And the "pulling the license" speculation is always a non-starter anyway, because there has never been much indication such a thing was on the table once Mike got his exclusive license. I'm not even sure Al ever wanted Mike to *not* have any license. There was just a period where Al wanted to use the "BBFF" name as an alternative. Al *may* have voted against Mike's exclusive license, but that doesn't mean he wanted an exclusive license himself. He just didn't want one person to have it and be frozen out.

The only indicator I've ever seen of talk of pulling the license was the accusations made in *Mike's* 2005 lawsuit, alleging Brian threatened to vote to pull Mike's license and either tour with Al as "The Beach Boys", or completely remove the license from the marketplace.

I don't tend to believe this *serious* allegation was completely fabricated, but I'm also not convinced it was ever something Brian (or Al) really wanted to do or planned to try to do. It sounds very much like a posturing/negotiating thing, which I'm sure all of these guys have undertaken over the years.

If ever there was a time they would have tried to yank the license, it would have been in the aftermath of 2012, and there's no indication any movement (or desire) on anyone's part ever happened. Brian's 2012 letter to the LA Times mentioned something about the whole thing being a matter for discussion among the shareholders, which is the only bit that I could try to stretch to suggest it might have been a veiled reference to changing the licensing setup at BRI.

At the same time, it's a total lapse in logic to suggest that if Brian and Al haven't tried to take Mike's license, that they're "perfectly fine" with it. As with many things in life, they may be grudgingly acknowledging it's the best choice from a list of choices that aren't ideal.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2016, 11:18:03 AM by HeyJude » Logged

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« Reply #179 on: April 14, 2016, 11:31:41 AM »

And the "pulling the license" speculation is always a non-starter anyway, because there has never been much indication such a thing was on the table once Mike got his exclusive license. I'm not even sure Al ever wanted Mike to *not* have any license.

I'll bet the day after he was kicked out of the band, circa 1998, Al probably wanted Mike to not have any license. I cannot imagine how hurt and screwed over Al must have felt in that moment.

I'm convinced that if social media existed in its current form at that time, that the hell Mike would have gotten for it would have been tremendous and overwhelming, and fans would have demanded an explanation from Mike for Al's dismissal.  *Especially* considering the opportune timing with Carl's passing. I don't think Mike could have avoided addressing his "reasoning" publicly.

Social media, and people refusing to let Mike sweep things like the ugly dismissal of a 35+ year original bandmate under the rug, is Mike's Kryptonite.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2016, 11:39:14 AM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #180 on: April 14, 2016, 11:33:21 AM »

Mike doesn't give a damn even with social media, his ego is so big that he ALONE is the BBs.
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« Reply #181 on: April 14, 2016, 11:37:43 AM »

It would certainly be interesting to see how that 1998 situation would have played out in today's social media. I have no idea. Mike got a ton of bad PR at the end of 2012 ("Mike Love fires Brian Wilson" trending on Twitter, etc.), but it didn't keep him from doing what he does.

I think it was business moves in the mid-late 90s on Mike's part that ended up serving him very well. Al saw it coming (see the Marks/Stebbins book) but couldn't do anything to stop it without allies in Carl or Brian.

That Al has gotten over *that* and works with Brian is refreshing. Everybody made nice and enjoyed C50. Guess who was disenfranchised in the aftermath of that project?
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« Reply #182 on: April 14, 2016, 11:46:55 AM »

It would certainly be interesting to see how that 1998 situation would have played out in today's social media. I have no idea. Mike got a ton of bad PR at the end of 2012 ("Mike Love fires Brian Wilson" trending on Twitter, etc.), but it didn't keep him from doing what he does.
 

True, but at least in 2012, Mike could fall back on the lame excuse that C50 was a pre-planned, temporary arrangement. It would have been quite another thing entirely for social media to chime in when the 1998 firing of Al was a brand new, fresh thing of an original member being permanently ousted. It would be interesting to see what kind of spin Mike would have tried to put on it. I'm sure a PR damage control person would have been hired and consulted.

I'm sure Mike in 1998 would never have just flat out publicly admitted that he wanted full control for the sake of power, and because he deserves it for writing hit songs that Al never wrote. Mike would have had to go back to focusing on publicly hammering Al for being a sourpuss or something. But if that had been the tack Mike had taken right after the devastating passing of Carl, I just could see the sh*tstorm having been huge. It would come off as so incredibly opportunistic, regardless if this was "planned" before Carl got sick. And if Mike got hammered about the opportunism, I'm not sure how he could respond to it. It would not have been pretty.

I'm not saying that Mike wouldn't have just gone ahead and done it anyway. Just that he'd be much more taken to task for it, and that it would be humorous to see Mike dodge mentioning his own ego as a prime motivation. It's always both simultaneously amusing and infuriating watching the dodging and the spin.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2016, 11:57:38 AM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #183 on: April 14, 2016, 11:47:39 AM »

I can't speak for Al, Brian, Mike, Bruce, or David.   I don't know them personally, nor do I really know a ton of the inner workings of BRI.  

But, I'd have to think that almost four years after the C50 Reunion ended, they've all moved on.  

Al has been enjoying touring with Brian.

Brian seems to be having a great time touring.  He may be happier on stage now than at any point in his life previously.  He's put out some very good music too.

Mike gets to do very good shows with his band, and gets to be the center of attention.  The fans who attend leave happy each night.  

Bruce gets to do what Bruce does.  

David has gone back and forth between the camps, touring with Brian and Al, appearing on NPP, and doing shows with Mike and Bruce.  

It seems to me that it's the some of the fans who don't want to move on.  

Sure, I think the name "The Beach Boys" should be amended somehow, just as other Touring 60s acts have been.  But, at this point, it is what it is.  

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« Reply #184 on: April 14, 2016, 12:31:21 PM »

The idea that a subset of fans have more trouble getting over something (e.g. C50) than the actual members is something worth pondering. But I think, especially after the immediate aftermath and all-around disappointment from most fans, we all "got over it", and the topic only rears its head when two sides, who both "got over it and moved on" but ended the saga feeling differently, restate their feelings or opinions on the matter.

I'm over the C50 debacle. Discovering how much of a clusterf**k the whole thing was helped to get over it in fact. But if someone reasserts that Mike is blameless in the demise of the reunion, I have no problem getting back into it and disagreeing. I don't see that as "not getting over it", but simply not being opposed to reengaging in a debate. I don't think we all *always* get back into it; it can be tiresome.

I also question how much the various factions have "gotten over" all of the BS attached to C50. I don't think any of the guys wake up in cold sweats about it, or fume about it on a daily basis. But I doubt, behind close doors, privately, they simply say "we're all just doing our own thing now, it's all good!" There is a half century-plus of chips on shoulders and animosity and not getting over some grudges. I don't think that will ever go away.

At the end of the day, I'm not prepared to say all of the band members take all of this stuff more lightly than argumentative fans, because some of the band members are the ones who have launched lawsuits, lobbed insults and backhanded compliments in interviews, send "polite warnings" to fellow band members about how they bill their shows, and so on.

Fans may publicly talk about the BB shenanigans more than the members do, but I would guess some or all of the members *do* talk about it and stew on it sometimes themselves, and they certainly *act* on it more than fans do.
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« Reply #185 on: April 14, 2016, 02:04:26 PM »

So it has been done but it is not "doable". 

I think all of that info was from the court record but we all know how reliable they aren't.
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« Reply #186 on: April 14, 2016, 02:54:09 PM »

The idea that a subset of fans have more trouble getting over something (e.g. C50) than the actual members is something worth pondering. But I think, especially after the immediate aftermath and all-around disappointment from most fans, we all "got over it"...

Except those for whom the very mention of a certain name causes their eyes to glow a terrible, baleful red, the frothy drool to start dripping from their lips, their incisors to grow a good foot and their few remaining brain cells to turn to mush.  Grin
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« Reply #187 on: April 14, 2016, 03:15:21 PM »

The idea that a subset of fans have more trouble getting over something (e.g. C50) than the actual members is something worth pondering. But I think, especially after the immediate aftermath and all-around disappointment from most fans, we all "got over it"...

Except those for whom the very mention of a certain name causes their eyes to glow a terrible, baleful red, the frothy drool to start dripping from their lips, their incisors to grow a good foot and their few remaining brain cells to turn to mush.  Grin

Sounds like a certain someone here when a poster offers an opinion that he doesn't agree with or a simple case of incorrect punctuation or a misspelled word. Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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« Reply #188 on: April 14, 2016, 03:19:52 PM »

The idea that a subset of fans have more trouble getting over something (e.g. C50) than the actual members is something worth pondering. But I think, especially after the immediate aftermath and all-around disappointment from most fans, we all "got over it"...

Except those for whom the very mention of a certain name causes their eyes to glow a terrible, baleful red, the frothy drool to start dripping from their lips, their incisors to grow a good foot and their few remaining brain cells to turn to mushGrin

Is that an exact quote from your foreword to the book? If so, I'll have to seek it out.
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« Reply #189 on: April 14, 2016, 03:25:48 PM »

The idea that a subset of fans have more trouble getting over something (e.g. C50) than the actual members is something worth pondering. But I think, especially after the immediate aftermath and all-around disappointment from most fans, we all "got over it"...

Except those for whom the very mention of a certain name causes their eyes to glow a terrible, baleful red, the frothy drool to start dripping from their lips, their incisors to grow a good foot and their few remaining brain cells to turn to mushGrin

Is that an exact quote from your foreword to the book? If so, I'll have to seek it out.

Just a little something I'm working on... the inside story of this august forum. I'm thinking of calling it F*ckwits & Sh*tweasels, With A Light Frosting Of TrollsGrin
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« Reply #190 on: April 14, 2016, 03:32:54 PM »

The idea that a subset of fans have more trouble getting over something (e.g. C50) than the actual members is something worth pondering. But I think, especially after the immediate aftermath and all-around disappointment from most fans, we all "got over it"...

Except those for whom the very mention of a certain name causes their eyes to glow a terrible, baleful red, the frothy drool to start dripping from their lips, their incisors to grow a good foot and their few remaining brain cells to turn to mush.  Grin

C'mon, Mike doesn't get *that* upset when you mention Brian or Melinda or the songwriting credits lawsuit...  3D
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« Reply #191 on: April 15, 2016, 01:59:02 PM »

Brian gave an interview not that long ago where he said he likes that Mike is keeping the Beach Boys "name" out there with his live shows (and of course, Brian gets a cut from those shows) so it sure doesn't sound like Brian is upset about it at all.
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« Reply #192 on: April 15, 2016, 02:03:19 PM »

Brian gave an interview not that long ago where he said he likes that Mike is keeping the Beach Boys "name" out there with his live shows (and of course, Brian gets a cut from those shows) so it sure doesn't sound like Brian is upset about it at all.

Brian's obviously made peace with the idea of it, as he often does with many events and people (who many others less forgiving than Brian would have had a much harder time doing). He was however certainly upset, as evidenced by the LA Times article, about feeling like he was fired due to Mike's actions. That didn't not happen.

I wonder how forgiving Mike would be of Brian if through some means, Brian finagled a way to tour as "The BBs", and specifically exclude Mike from being in the live band called "The BBs". Something tells me Mike's forgiveness level would not be high. Can you even imagine how absolutely endlessly Mike would be publicly complaining about it? Can you imagine Mike being appreciative of Brian keeping the BB name out there (without Mike's involvement)? It would never happen.  
« Last Edit: April 15, 2016, 02:25:20 PM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #193 on: April 15, 2016, 02:50:46 PM »

Brian gave an interview not that long ago where he said he likes that Mike is keeping the Beach Boys "name" out there with his live shows (and of course, Brian gets a cut from those shows) so it sure doesn't sound like Brian is upset about it at all.

Brian's obviously made peace with the idea of it, as he often does with many events and people (who many others less forgiving than Brian would have had a much harder time doing). He was however certainly upset, as evidenced by the LA Times article, about feeling like he was fired due to Mike's actions. That didn't not happen.

I wonder how forgiving Mike would be of Brian if through some means, Brian toured as "The BBs" and specifically excluded Mike from being in the live band called "The BBs". Something tells me Mike's forgiveness level would not be high. Can you even imagine how absolutely endlessly Mike would be complaining about it?

True, he was disappointed 4 years ago when the C50 tour ended. As he's also said in recent interviews, that the C50 tour was the most enjoyable tour he's had and he likes having Mike as the frontman (although I doubt many on this board with agree with him there).

The point is, Brian has moved on. He appears healthy and happy and doing the kind of shows and maintaining the kind of touring schedule that works for him.

In a perfect world, Mike, Bruce and Al (and possibly Dave) would've toured without Brian, only having him pop up at selected shows like they had done decades before, so Brian wouldn't have to live out of a suitcase like the others....but then we probably would've been back to the same old argument that poisoned fan circles in the 80's and 90's. "It's not the Beach Boys without Brian". People forget that even Carl was vilified by hardcore fans in those years.

So what do you do? You've got Mike who wants a stripped down unit to play as many shows as humanly (and economically) possible, and Brian who wants a larger unit playing less shows. We're not even getting into the lawyers/accountants/managers point of view which is a major factor in all of this business.

This subject won't be closed until both men can no longer tour at all, a day that's coming sooner than later.
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« Reply #194 on: April 15, 2016, 03:43:00 PM »

In a perfect world, Mike, Bruce and Al (and possibly Dave) would've toured without Brian, only having him pop up at selected shows like they had done decades before, so Brian wouldn't have to live out of a suitcase like the others....but then we probably would've been back to the same old argument that poisoned fan circles in the 80's and 90's. "It's not the Beach Boys without Brian". People forget that even Carl was vilified by hardcore fans in those years.

So what do you do? You've got Mike who wants a stripped down unit to play as many shows as humanly (and economically) possible, and Brian who wants a larger unit playing less shows. We're not even getting into the lawyers/accountants/managers point of view which is a major factor in all of this business.

This subject won't be closed until both men can no longer tour at all, a day that's coming sooner than later.

That's "a perfect world" for that most rapacious and intolerant of creatures, the fan. Or rather, the hard-core fan. Joe Q. Public could are less. Point being, the subject is closed, as far as Brian & Mike are concerned: they're both touring the way they want to, and that's fine by them. The End.  Smiley
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« Reply #195 on: April 15, 2016, 03:47:33 PM »

Agreed. My point was that even a "perfect world" scenario of Mike, Bruce and Al touring as The Beach Boys with Brian popping in now and then would tick off the fans. I remember those days all too well.  Cool
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« Reply #196 on: April 15, 2016, 03:48:43 PM »

In a perfect world, Mike, Bruce and Al (and possibly Dave) would've toured without Brian, only having him pop up at selected shows like they had done decades before, so Brian wouldn't have to live out of a suitcase like the others....but then we probably would've been back to the same old argument that poisoned fan circles in the 80's and 90's. "It's not the Beach Boys without Brian". People forget that even Carl was vilified by hardcore fans in those years.

So what do you do? You've got Mike who wants a stripped down unit to play as many shows as humanly (and economically) possible, and Brian who wants a larger unit playing less shows. We're not even getting into the lawyers/accountants/managers point of view which is a major factor in all of this business.

This subject won't be closed until both men can no longer tour at all, a day that's coming sooner than later.

That's "a perfect world" for that most rapacious and intolerant of creatures, the fan. Or rather, the hard-core fan. Joe Q. Public could are less. Point being, the subject is closed, as far as Brian & Mike are concerned: they're both touring the way they want to, and that's fine by them. The End.  Smiley

It's basically as though they've had a divorce, and Mike walked away with the family business, although he still pays the other business members alimony. Ultimately they all of course deserve to be happy, and they are on different paths... but it's a bummer that the name of the brand had to take a hit the way it did. Ego got in the way. No amount of explaining (Mike-splaining?) can make that not true, at least to a point. And for the brand name to take a hit PLUS the guy who got to walk away with the brand name just happens to be the lone guy still endlessly complaining, well that's what just bugs the heck out of a lotta people.  

Ultimately, I think that Brian and Al are just making the best of it, not necessarily touring "the way they want to". What they wanted was to be BBs again and they were denied that. This fact sucks. I am glad Brian and Al are having fun touring though, and I'm also glad M&B are having fun doing their touring too. Frankly, as much as I'd love to see all the living members making music together... with some exceptions, it seems they cannot work together and be truly happy (in no small part due to one member's ego issues - the Achilles heel of the band, barring drug use/mental illness), and I think that's been the case for decades.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2016, 04:50:08 PM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #197 on: April 15, 2016, 04:52:49 PM »

Honestly, I don't see the brand taking any kind of a hit. Pet Sounds and SMiLE aren't loved any less. The Beach Boys are frequently written about with lofty language in music publications, etc. If anything, their (and Brian's) level of respect among hipsters, music lovers, critics, etc is higher than it's ever been. That certainly wasn't the case 30 years ago.

The tours these days make no dent in any of that.
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« Reply #198 on: April 15, 2016, 04:57:31 PM »

Honestly, I don't see the brand taking any kind of a hit. Pet Sounds and SMiLE aren't loved any less. The Beach Boys are frequently written about with lofty language in music publications, etc. If anything, their (and Brian's) level of respect among hipsters, music lovers, critics, etc is higher than it's ever been. That certainly wasn't the case 30 years ago.

The tours these days make no dent in any of that.

Mike lost a ton of respect for how C50 imploded. He is the public image of the touring band these days. If there was a longterm reconciliation of Brian and Mike, and the ego issues were in check, and Brian + Al continued associating with the BB name while making quality "BB" material, the brand name would have more dignity these days. No doubt.

The current touring BBs, for example, will never be invited to the 2016 Mega-Concert of 1960s superstars with Dylan, Rolling Stones, Neil Young, etc. (that's being talked about in another current thread)... but if Brian and Al were still in the band, with the reunion going strong, Mike's ego in check, and the band touring (but touring less, with an emphasis of quality over quantity) I think there's a high probability the BBs would have been invited as a headliner.  Plus, many more people would like Mike a lot more. None of these things would do anything but help the brand.

I desire for Mike to be better respected (by earning such respect) and I also desire the brand name to have more dignity. Sucks that it ain't so. I'm glad the members are all making the best of things considering how much better things could have been.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2016, 05:32:04 PM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #199 on: April 15, 2016, 06:59:09 PM »

Sadly that they may be happy and content post 2012 doesn't come across in interviews. Mike still snipes about one thing or the other constantly in interviews. He is not a content soul by any means and Al and Brian have sniped occasionally as well.
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