Is Steve Love A Credible Source?

[Ed Roach]

Brother Records
1654 North Ivar Avenue
Hollywood, CA

Debbie is not alone in referring to the Brother offices as "Ivar" -- Fred Vail does so as well.  It too me a while into my first lengthy conversation with Fred to figure out what he was talking about when he referred to "meeting at Ivar" or "a decision made at Ivar." 

Lee

In my memory, Ivar, (where The Flame were rehearsing first time Dennis took Trisha & I there), was usually referred to as American Productions.  Steve later moved those offices to Sepulveda & Rosecrans, in Manhattan Beach

[Debbie KL]

Brother Records
1654 North Ivar Avenue
Hollywood, CA

Debbie is not alone in referring to the Brother offices as "Ivar" -- Fred Vail does so as well.  It too me a while into my first lengthy conversation with Fred to figure out what he was talking about when he referred to "meeting at Ivar" or "a decision made at Ivar." 

Lee

In my memory, Ivar, (where The Flame were rehearsing first time Dennis took Trisha & I there), was usually referred to as American Productions.  Steve later moved those offices to Sepulveda & Rosecrans, in Manhattan Beach

Thanks, Ed.  I was never part of the Manhattan Beach offices - never even saw them.  I didn't even know that those offices on Ivar were called American Productions, and I answered the phones when asked.  It's all pretty comical, really.  I was a teenage baby, happily in that strange, windowless domain, opening fan mail, etc.  There was truly magical music in that unfinished rehearsal space.  I'm glad you enjoyed it, too.

[Emily]

mmkay, but in your post 8 or so above, with 4 premises and a question regarding the conclusion they'd lead to, the 4th premise depends upon Rocky's less-than-clear information. Is your post off-topic or would you simply prefer that I not ask questions about it?

Yes, my post was off topic.  Also, to clarify, I was saying that Rocky has not been clear as to who is on the tape and that I was going to honor the requests above to stay on topic going forward.

EoL

I'm sorry for sounding rude above, but this leaves me mystified. If that's off-topic, what's the topic? Just generally, is Steve Love credible, without reference to anything in particular? Or is the existence of Steve Love's deposition in which he gave evidence pertinent to the credits lawsuit the topic? I'm legitimately confused by this.

[Empire Of Love]

mmkay, but in your post 8 or so above, with 4 premises and a question regarding the conclusion they'd lead to, the 4th premise depends upon Rocky's less-than-clear information. Is your post off-topic or would you simply prefer that I not ask questions about it?

Yes, my post was off topic.  Also, to clarify, I was saying that Rocky has not been clear as to who is on the tape and that I was going to honor the requests above to stay on topic going forward.

EoL

I'm sorry for sounding rude above, but this leaves me mystified. If that's off-topic, what's the topic? Just generally, is Steve Love credible, without reference to anything in particular? Or is the existence of Steve Love's deposition in which he gave evidence pertinent to the credits lawsuit the topic? I'm legitimately confused by this.

The topic is whether or not Steve Love is credible whereas I was discussing Rocky's tape.  I believe Rocky has discussed Steve Love's deposition, but that is not what I was discussing.  I don't want to be the one to take the thread off topic, especially when there is another thread covering Rocky's perspective .

EoL

[Emily]

In all seriousness, you are saying that the original post was off-topic? Is the whole thread an artistic commentary on the pointlessness of message boards?

[Ed Roach]

Thanks, Ed.  I was never part of the Manhattan Beach offices - never even saw them.  I didn't even know that those offices on Ivar were called American Productions, and I answered the phones when asked.  It's all pretty comical, really.  I was a teenage baby, happily in that strange, windowless domain, opening fan mail, etc.  There was truly magical music in that unfinished rehearsal space.  I'm glad you enjoyed it, too.

Thank you, Debbie, or should I say 'Golden Hair' - (and was it my daughter Brianne, who believe it or not turned 39 on 3/13, who coined that nickname for you?) - but I knew those offices in Manhattan Beach, (right near Stan & Steve's residence), better than Ivar.  (And by the way, was the place downstairs from Ivar called - King James?).  Wasn't Hollywood & Ivar another real estate deal they were screwed on - this one by Grillo?  Or was that just typical Dennis, claiming to own something they were only renting?  I remember him showing me how far they owned up Hollywood Blvd.  (Then again, he did the same with the porno theater where they rented warehouse space for the Holland/Brian studio, until they wouldn't let us in drunk!  The next day, the porno theater was raided, and construction began on Brother Studios!)

[Empire Of Love]

In all seriousness, you are saying that the original post was off-topic? Is the whole thread an artistic commentary on the pointlessness of message boards?

Emily, I don't know WTF you are talking about and I don't think you do either.  The topic of the original post is whether or not Steve Love is a credible source.  As it happens, this is also the subject of this thread.  The oglriginal poster does make reference to Rocky for the simple fact that Rocky seems to corroborate Steve's claim.  But the clear topic of the post, as indicated plainly by the very subject line, is whether or not Steve Love is a credible source.  It has nothing to do with whether or not Rocky's tape would be admissable in court.  First, Rocky's comment/tape is, at best, secondary.  Second, admissability in court has very little to do with the truth of the matter.  If we suppose Rocky and Stan testified that Mike wrote certain songs and that there is a contemporary tape of the two of them joking about committing perjury in this regard, it would be pretty damning of Mike's claims no matter what a court would be willing to consider.  I would dare say that two guys confessing to perjury is fairly persuasive - added on top of Steve's statement and Mike's false witness in 2005 and his blatant lies about Brian in the 2005 lawsuit.

But of all this the poster was not inquiring.  He was asking wether or not Steve Love is a credible source.  The admissability of Rocky's tape and his claims regarding immunity don't have anything at all to do with the original poster's question .  Is this so hard for you to understand?  Do you have anything to add to this question or do you want to continue to play dumb in regards to my attempt to stay on topic?

EoL

[Emily]

In all seriousness, you are saying that the original post was off-topic? Is the whole thread an artistic commentary on the pointlessness of message boards?

Emily, I don't know WTF you are talking about and I don't think you do either.  The topic of the original post is whether or not Steve Love is a credible source.  As it happens, this is also the subject of this thread.  The oglriginal poster does make reference to Rocky for the simple fact that Rocky seems to corroborate Steve's claim.  But the clear topic of the post, as indicated plainly by the very subject line, is whether or not Steve Love is a credible source.  It has nothing to do with whether or not Rocky's tape would be admissable in court.  First, Rocky's comment/tape is, at best, secondary.  Second, admissability in court has very little to do with the truth of the matter.  If we suppose Rocky and Stan testified that Mike wrote certain songs and that there is a contemporary tape of the two of them joking about committing perjury in this regard, it would be pretty damning of Mike's claims no matter what a court would be willing to consider.  I would dare say that two guys confessing to perjury is fairly persuasive - added on top of Steve's statement and Mike's false witness in 2005 and his blatant lies about Brian in the 2005 lawsuit.

But of all this the poster was not inquiring.  He was asking wether or not Steve Love is a credible source.  The admissability of Rocky's tape and his claims regarding immunity don't have anything at all to do with the original poster's question .  Is this so hard for you to understand?  Do you have anything to add to this question or do you want to continue to play dumb in regards to my attempt to stay on topic?

EoL

EoL, I'm sorry you're so frustrated but the feeling is mutual. I don't really get what you're saying either.
The original post said:

...

“Wait till Mike-y gets an earful of the "SMOKING GUN TAPE"... where Stan tapes he and I talking about...WHO LIED BEST IN COURT FOR... MIKE”

-Rocky Pamplin
March 15, 2016

“YES, THE SMOKING GUN TAPE IS of Stan AND me (It's called "PROOF") Stan doesn't really love Mike-y... or he would NEVER HAVE TAPED THIS CONVERSATION... AND THEN GIVEN IT TO STEPHEN! Unless, OF COURSE, he was STUPID!”

-Rocky Pamplin
March 16, 2016

This is huge. These are two people with previous deep involvement with the band who are claiming that “shenanigans” and lying took place during one of the most well known and talked about lawsuits in rock-n-roll history. Rocky Pamplin’s outlandish thread has veered across the spectrum seemingly between reality and fiction…Yet this is at least one story from his thread that appears to be corroborated by a knowledgable and credible person directly related to Mike Love and the Beach Boys band.

...,
- If these accusations turn out to be true, what are the ramifications?

So the first post posits that two people are talking about something: Steve and Rocky. And that a knowledgable and credible person (presumably Steve) corroborates a story by Rocky about the tape. And then says "if these stories turn out to be true, what are the ramifications?"
As I posted before, perhaps the OP wanted us to just assume they are true and discuss the ramifications, but that would render the question in the title moot because it would be asking us to start with the assumption that he is credible (as it turns out, he did start with that assumption and brushed off any suggestion that he isn't).
So, assuming OP is serious about the question in the title, and given that the question is about whether the accusations are true and whether Steve Love's corroboration of Rocky's story is credible, the validity of Rocky's story must be considered. If Rocky's story is invalid and Steve corroborates it, that answers the question. So discussions about holes in Rocky's story are directly pertinent to the OP and original question.
1. If Rocky's story is invalid
2. Steve's corroboration is invalid.
Given the text of the OP and the topic subject, the validity of Rocky's story is absolutely on topic. I understand people are tired of talking about Rocky, but it was set out in the OP.

To simplify, the OP uses the tape story as evidence. In my interpretation, that renders discussion of the tape story on-topic. I'm sorry that my interpretation differs from yours.

[kiwi surfer]

From a strictly neutral perspective and to answer the OP's question "Is Steve Love a credible source?" I'll throw in my 10 cents worth.

SL would likely come across as a reasonably credible witness who would present well but given his bias against Mike his evidence (testimony in the US) would be easy to challenge and to cast doubt over its veracity. Then you add equally or more credible or compelling evidence from others on the opposing side and it's likely nothing much would turn on whatever he testified.

From a very casual glance at the thread I get the idea SL made himself and his evidence available to Brian's lawyers. Perhaps there's good reason why they decided not to use it and therefore whatever the evidence is, it is nowhere near as important or as useful in a legal context as some might think.

[CenturyDeprived]

Brother Records
1654 North Ivar Avenue
Hollywood, CA

Debbie is not alone in referring to the Brother offices as "Ivar" -- Fred Vail does so as well.  It too me a while into my first lengthy conversation with Fred to figure out what he was talking about when he referred to "meeting at Ivar" or "a decision made at Ivar."  

Lee

In my memory, Ivar, (where The Flame were rehearsing first time Dennis took Trisha & I there), was usually referred to as American Productions.  Steve later moved those offices to Sepulveda & Rosecrans, in Manhattan Beach

Thanks, Ed.  I was never part of the Manhattan Beach offices - never even saw them.  I didn't even know that those offices on Ivar were called American Productions, and I answered the phones when asked.  It's all pretty comical, really.  I was a teenage baby, happily in that strange, windowless domain, opening fan mail, etc.  There was truly magical music in that unfinished rehearsal space.  I'm glad you enjoyed it, too.

Debbie, the imagery that came to my mind when hearing you recount your experiences opening fan mail made me wonder: have you ever seen the film "Good Ol' Freda" about The Beatles' fan mail operations lady? Brilliant documentary. I do wish there could also be a BBs companion version of this doc.

[Debbie KL]

Thanks, Ed.  I was never part of the Manhattan Beach offices - never even saw them.  I didn't even know that those offices on Ivar were called American Productions, and I answered the phones when asked.  It's all pretty comical, really.  I was a teenage baby, happily in that strange, windowless domain, opening fan mail, etc.  There was truly magical music in that unfinished rehearsal space.  I'm glad you enjoyed it, too.

Thank you, Debbie, or should I say 'Golden Hair' - (and was it my daughter Brianne, who believe it or not turned 39 on 3/13, who coined that nickname for you?) - but I knew those offices in Manhattan Beach, (right near Stan & Steve's residence), better than Ivar.  (And by the way, was the place downstairs from Ivar called - King James?).  Wasn't Hollywood & Ivar another real estate deal they were screwed on - this one by Grillo?  Or was that just typical Dennis, claiming to own something they were only renting?  I remember him showing me how far they owned up Hollywood Blvd.  (Then again, he did the same with the porno theater where they rented warehouse space for the Holland/Brian studio, until they wouldn't let us in drunk!  The next day, the porno theater was raided, and construction began on Brother Studios!)

(Off topic:  Yes, Brianne named me Goldenhair - loved that gorgeous child, now young woman).  The Ivar offices were above a drugstore when I worked there.  I vaguely remember hearing that the property was sold and became "The Baths" - a pretty legendary place before the AIDS epidemic. I'm assuming the purchase of that building would have been done by Grillo, given the timing.  Steve Love had entered as Grillo's intern before the sale and was likely aware of the details, but I don't think he'd have been in charge then.  I never heard if they lost money in that deal or not.  I also remember the BBs being invested in Wally Heider studios, south and around the corner from the Ivar offices on Selma, so possibly that was Dennis's reference?  I had the lofty job of delivering cheeseburgers to Carl and Steve Desper as they worked on mixing "Sunflower" there, so that would have been the time-frame of that ownership, or partial ownership.

[Cam Mott]

I may be about to feel stupid (again) but does anyone know what Love-Jardine case Steve was deposed for in August 2006?

[Debbie KL]

Brother Records
1654 North Ivar Avenue
Hollywood, CA

Debbie is not alone in referring to the Brother offices as "Ivar" -- Fred Vail does so as well.  It too me a while into my first lengthy conversation with Fred to figure out what he was talking about when he referred to "meeting at Ivar" or "a decision made at Ivar."  

Lee

In my memory, Ivar, (where The Flame were rehearsing first time Dennis took Trisha & I there), was usually referred to as American Productions.  Steve later moved those offices to Sepulveda & Rosecrans, in Manhattan Beach

Thanks, Ed.  I was never part of the Manhattan Beach offices - never even saw them.  I didn't even know that those offices on Ivar were called American Productions, and I answered the phones when asked.  It's all pretty comical, really.  I was a teenage baby, happily in that strange, windowless domain, opening fan mail, etc.  There was truly magical music in that unfinished rehearsal space.  I'm glad you enjoyed it, too.

Debbie, the imagery that came to my mind when hearing you recount your experiences opening fan mail made me wonder: have you ever seen the film "Good Ol' Freda" about The Beatles' fan mail operations lady? Brilliant documentary. I do wish there could also be a BBs companion version of this doc.

I actually haven't seen it, but I know that the Beatles took care of that super-fan, from what I've read.  I didn't really start a fan club, or anything like that.  I opened the mail that had been sitting for 6 years, apparently.  The BBs had gotten rid of their fan mail management firm back then in order to manage it themselves and it got lost in the shuffle.  I was a teen fan myself at the time and in the midst of plowing through all that mail, many interesting things took place in those offices and I was lucky enough to be exposed to wonderful music from the rehearsal room and to meet a lot of key players.  Pretty heady stuff for a little teen girl.  And many of the friendships have lasted to this day.

So that's how I met Nick Grillo, Stephen Love, Fred Vail, several band members, Flame, etc.  One thing that I would add is that the BBs were very interested in a fan's perspective on their music and were really respectful.  Carl even asked my opinion on a mix on Sunflower (This Whole World) when I delivered those cheeseburgers.  I thought that was really cool.

So, back to the topic - the Stephen Love I met was a very polite, professional young man finishing a degree at USC. 

[SMiLE Brian]

Man, that fan mail from 1964 must have felt like from a century ago by 1970!

[Debbie KL]

Man, that fan mail from 1964 must have felt like from a century ago by 1970!

I admit to cheating after awhile and picking out my favorite mail.  The Japanese fans wrote wonderful, admiring poetry.  I tried to pass a lot of those along.  A young teen in Louisville, KY wrote Dennis twice a week - 5 page letters, describing his body in glorious terms every time.  I'd never seen anything like it.  There were all these letters and then I found one final one where she said he hadn't replied, so she was done with him - and that was the last letter.  Hilarious.  But I did plow through tons more.

But this isn't bringing us back on topic, is it?  I'm not certain what else there is to add.  Stephen was also in charge of hiding me in the sauna/tape storage room when one person would visit the offices who didn't want me there.  He obviously thought it was all pretty funny.  So did I.

[SMiLE Brian]

Funny reading such personal letters in a office setting! Were there letters about SMiLE or pet sounds?

[Custom Machine]

...  Stephen was also in charge of hiding me in the sauna/tape storage room when one person would visit the offices who didn't want me there.  He obviously thought it was all pretty funny.  So did I.

OK, Debbie, if you're at liberty to do so, let's hear more about this story! 

(And, as far as I'm concerned, it fine for threads to go off on various tangents - it happens all the time, not only on message boards but in actual conversations as well. Also fine for posters to call for a return to the main topic at hand, but that's often a fruitless endeavor. I find posts from people like Debbie and Ed, who were actually there at the time, to be very informative and of greater interest than endless speculation from those of us who were not.)

Also, Debbie, I'm sure you've answered this before, but do you recall exact time frame (month and year you started and stopped) when you worked for the BBs? The Sunflower era is an especially interesting one to me as my fandom had reached incredible heights, but it was coupled with frustration that so few people (in the US at least) were willing to listen the the band at that time.

[Debbie KL]

...  Stephen was also in charge of hiding me in the sauna/tape storage room when one person would visit the offices who didn't want me there.  He obviously thought it was all pretty funny.  So did I.

OK, Debbie, if you're at liberty to do so, let's hear more about this story! 

(And, as far as I'm concerned, it fine for threads to go off on various tangents - it happens all the time, not only on message boards but in actual conversations as well. Also fine for posters to call for a return to the main topic at hand, but that's often a fruitless endeavor. I find posts from people like Debbie and Ed, who were actually there at the time, to be very informative and of greater interest than endless speculation from those of us who were not.)

Also, Debbie, I'm sure you've answered this before, but do you recall exact time frame (month and year you started and stopped) when you worked for the BBs? The Sunflower era is an especially interesting one to me as my fandom had reached incredible heights, but it was coupled with frustration that so few people (in the US at least) were willing to listen the the band at that time.

I was there Aug-Nov 69.  I'm pretty sure that was the timing of the Sunflower mixing sessions - like I said, I didn't journal (sorry)  I returned Apr to whenever, '70.  I'm thinking probably Aug or Sept. was when I had to leave.  Steve had the job of telling me I'd been "found out" and even though they all loved me, I had to stop coming in.  I'm not about to share who wanted me gone.  It was silly and everyone was very young.

[tpesky]

The BB are a good example of the old saying that it's never good to mix business and family. They had way too much of that in the late 70s and that created a lot of these problems.

[Andrew G. Doe]

The BB are a good example of the old saying that it's never good to mix business and family. They had way too much of that in the late 70s and that created a lot of these problems.

Also from fall 1961 to April 1964.

[Custom Machine]

...  Stephen was also in charge of hiding me in the sauna/tape storage room when one person would visit the offices who didn't want me there.  He obviously thought it was all pretty funny.  So did I.

OK, Debbie, if you're at liberty to do so, let's hear more about this story! 

(And, as far as I'm concerned, it fine for threads to go off on various tangents - it happens all the time, not only on message boards but in actual conversations as well. Also fine for posters to call for a return to the main topic at hand, but that's often a fruitless endeavor. I find posts from people like Debbie and Ed, who were actually there at the time, to be very informative and of greater interest than endless speculation from those of us who were not.)

Also, Debbie, I'm sure you've answered this before, but do you recall exact time frame (month and year you started and stopped) when you worked for the BBs? The Sunflower era is an especially interesting one to me as my fandom had reached incredible heights, but it was coupled with frustration that so few people (in the US at least) were willing to listen the the band at that time.

I was there Aug-Nov 69.  I'm pretty sure that was the timing of the Sunflower mixing sessions - like I said, I didn't journal (sorry)  I returned Apr to whenever, '70.  I'm thinking probably Aug or Sept. was when I had to leave.  Steve had the job of telling me I'd been "found out" and even though they all loved me, I had to stop coming in.  I'm not about to share who wanted me gone.  It was silly and everyone was very young.

Thanks for the info, Debbie. (No matter, but I think I may have just realized who the person in question might have been. Or maybe not!)

Anyway, considering the time frame, I've got another question for you. -- What was your sense of the BBs level of concern about their declining popularity in the US during the time you were working at Ivar? Did you detect any level of desperation? Or did they seem content that they were popular overseas and confident that their new contract with Warner/Reprise and forthcoming album (entitled Add Some Music when I first heard about it, but later changed to Sunflower after the relative failure of the Add Some Music single in Feb. 1970) would lead to a renewed level of record sales success? Did they seem happy to be rid of the Capitol Records contract? Were they (and in addition to the BBs, this would include Nick Grillo, Fred Vail, and Steve Love) bummed that Capitol deleted their albums when their Capitol contract ended and they went to Warner/Reprise?

I know that a lot of my questions may be beyond the scope of what a teenaged Debbie K may have been interested in, but I'd love to know more about the vibe in the office at that time.

[Custom Machine]

The BB are a good example of the old saying that it's never good to mix business and family. They had way too much of that in the late 70s and that created a lot of these problems.

Also from fall 1961 to April 1964.

There wouldn't be a Beach Boys if the guys hadn't mixed business with family, but I'd put the time frame for the resulting "problems" as late 1961 - present.

[Debbie KL]

...  Stephen was also in charge of hiding me in the sauna/tape storage room when one person would visit the offices who didn't want me there.  He obviously thought it was all pretty funny.  So did I.

OK, Debbie, if you're at liberty to do so, let's hear more about this story! 

(And, as far as I'm concerned, it fine for threads to go off on various tangents - it happens all the time, not only on message boards but in actual conversations as well. Also fine for posters to call for a return to the main topic at hand, but that's often a fruitless endeavor. I find posts from people like Debbie and Ed, who were actually there at the time, to be very informative and of greater interest than endless speculation from those of us who were not.)

Also, Debbie, I'm sure you've answered this before, but do you recall exact time frame (month and year you started and stopped) when you worked for the BBs? The Sunflower era is an especially interesting one to me as my fandom had reached incredible heights, but it was coupled with frustration that so few people (in the US at least) were willing to listen the the band at that time.

I was there Aug-Nov 69.  I'm pretty sure that was the timing of the Sunflower mixing sessions - like I said, I didn't journal (sorry)  I returned Apr to whenever, '70.  I'm thinking probably Aug or Sept. was when I had to leave.  Steve had the job of telling me I'd been "found out" and even though they all loved me, I had to stop coming in.  I'm not about to share who wanted me gone.  It was silly and everyone was very young.

Thanks for the info, Debbie. (No matter, but I think I may have just realized who the person in question might have been. Or maybe not!)

Anyway, considering the time frame, I've got another question for you. -- What was your sense of the BBs level of concern about their declining popularity in the US during the time you were working at Ivar? Did you detect any level of desperation? Or did they seem content that they were popular overseas and confident that their new contract with Warner/Reprise and forthcoming album (entitled Add Some Music when I first heard about it, but later changed to Sunflower after the relative failure of the Add Some Music single in Feb. 1970) would lead to a renewed level of record sales success? Did they seem happy to be rid of the Capitol Records contract? Were they (and in addition to the BBs, this would include Nick Grillo, Fred Vail, and Steve Love) bummed that Capitol deleted their albums when their Capitol contract ended and they went to Warner/Reprise?

I know that a lot of my questions may be beyond the scope of what a teenaged Debbie K may have been interested in, but I'd love to know more about the vibe in the office at that time.

Yeah, teeny-bopper Debbie definitely wasn't in any of the business meetings, but there were obvious currents that anyone paying attention could pick up.  I definitely didn't get a sense of desperation from any of the band.  Everyone was young and it was an exciting time for any artist.

Poor Nick had to deal with all the messes that were going on in business/finance.  It was rather amusing because we'd be all the way at the front of the offices and this loud eruption would come from the "vault" in the back corner.  That's what Nick's office was called - with a bit of a wink - since it had this rather strange sliding vault-like door that his secretary, Lou would activate from her desk.  His nature was to express himself, loudly, and then it would pass.  It was usually hilarious.  I mean, it was this business guy dealing with 20-something artists who'd known nothing but success and fame from a very young age.  It was the 60's when everything seemed possible, so it was youthful exuberance meets reality - in the vault.  The decor was late 60's - orange and gold foil wallpaper, green furniture and the like.  It would have been a perfect movie set. Stephen's office was modest, across from the sauna/tape storage room and just down from the "vault."

[Ang Jones]

...  Stephen was also in charge of hiding me in the sauna/tape storage room when one person would visit the offices who didn't want me there.  He obviously thought it was all pretty funny.  So did I.

OK, Debbie, if you're at liberty to do so, let's hear more about this story! 

(And, as far as I'm concerned, it fine for threads to go off on various tangents - it happens all the time, not only on message boards but in actual conversations as well. Also fine for posters to call for a return to the main topic at hand, but that's often a fruitless endeavor. I find posts from people like Debbie and Ed, who were actually there at the time, to be very informative and of greater interest than endless speculation from those of us who were not.)

Also, Debbie, I'm sure you've answered this before, but do you recall exact time frame (month and year you started and stopped) when you worked for the BBs? The Sunflower era is an especially interesting one to me as my fandom had reached incredible heights, but it was coupled with frustration that so few people (in the US at least) were willing to listen the the band at that time.

I agree that it is entirely natural for threads to wander a little and the insight from those who were there, like Debbie and Ed, is invaluable. I have no problem with threads going off topic when it occurs spontaneously - it's when it is deliberately done as a distraction that I find it irritating.

[mabewa]

Hope this is reasonably on-topic, but it's always been clear to me that Mike was cheated of SOME songwriting credits--an obvious example being California Girls, which Brian stated repeatedly Mike had written, despite the lack of a songwriting credit.

But the number of songwriting credits that Mike ended up getting strikes me as suspicious.  For example, things like getting a credit for the 'Good night baby' stuff in WIBN...  that's a typical kind of thing where a singer improvises something brief in a song that doesn't substantially add to or change the existing, written words and music. It's pretty unusual to give someone an equal credit with the two people who actually wrote the song for stuff like that.  As such, I do wonder whether something shady went on in that trial, as Steve Love seems to be claiming.