Backing Vox 'Let's go away...'

[guitarfool2002]

There were 12-string mandolins made by a variety of companies and luthiers, though they were very rare. The issue with those "traditional" 12-string mandos was how the strings were grouped. There were 4 sets of 3-string groupings, so instead of the regular mandolin, you would be fretting three strings instead of two. So essentially it's still 4 individually tuned strings, but tripled rather than doubled.

The instrument shown in that photo, and I'll paste it here, shows 6 groups of 2-string groupings, which is more of a guitar based setup like a guitar 12-string rather than the 4-string mandolin setup.  This is the PS box photo that I posted to several forums years ago when trying to figure this out and it's still on Google images from those forums, lol:



Note again the 6 sets of paired strings, like a 12-string guitar but in mandolin scale, and as many of these session guys did like Tedesco when reading for mandolin, tuned like a guitar. Add the two extra strings and Barney would essentially have a mini-guitar that produced mandolin sounds and effects, which he could read charts and do voicings as if he were playing a regular guitar.

The pickup issue is definitely something that stands out. Some Gibson electric mandolins had the pickup just under the heel of the neck, which is where Barney's hand is resting. Maybe he had a pickup installed after this photo, I just don't know.

The information came from a conversation with someone directly involved with the L&M film. That's all I want to say about that, and all I will say.

I too thought it could be a Bellzouki, but according to the conversation, the Bellzouki was chosen for the film for reasons other than it being what was actually played in '66 and because a Gibson hybrid mandolin comparable to Barney's was not available.

The Kessel family was consulted on this instrument history, again according to the discussion.

I have also been disputing very strongly the notion that it was a 12-string tuned down. There is just no reason to make an instrument already challenging to play above the 10th fret or so even more challenging to play in tune by dropping a whole step! No rational reason to do that...but acoustic 12-string players would do that for neck and tension issues, and if they had to play 'standard' tuning, a lot of them would capo the 2nd fret. But doing it specific to this WIBN intro would be redundant and would make it even harder to play since you'd be on the 16th instead of the 14th. Goodbye, intonation.

Consider Barney's Gibson mandolin - He could play the WIBN intro arpeggios at the 2nd fret, basically open position, if he used that 12-string mandolin.

I think there may have been a misunderstanding about the "custom" nature of this instrument - It would make sense for Barney to have ordered a special build to allow him to play and read parts for mandolin on sessions using guitar tuning and layout, but on a mandolin body. It wouldn't make sense for him to order a special build for one Brian Wilson session - I think this Gibson could have just been one of many in his session arsenal which he used on WIBN.

[c-man]

I wonder if anyone in Brian's camp ever asked him exactly what kind of guitar Barney used on WIBN. If shown a picture, he might remember - the closest he's come was a couple of late '90s remarks, one where he identified Barney Kessel as the player, and another where he spoke of the "ringy-ding" characteristic of the guitar (in such a way as to imply there was something unique about that particular guitar). Oh, and a third where he just stated that the intro was two guitars, one played high up on the neck, and the other played normally.

[feelsflow]

this thread, which started off so strange, has become more interesting as it hangs on and on, and morphs into something else entirely.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

I have also been disputing very strongly the notion that it was a 12-string tuned down. There is just no reason to make an instrument already challenging to play above the 10th fret or so even more challenging to play in tune by dropping a whole step! No rational reason to do that...but acoustic 12-string players would do that for neck and tension issues, and if they had to play 'standard' tuning, a lot of them would capo the 2nd fret. But doing it specific to this WIBN intro would be redundant and would make it even harder to play since you'd be on the 16th instead of the 14th. Goodbye, intonation.

Consider Barney's Gibson mandolin - He could play the WIBN intro arpeggios at the 2nd fret, basically open position, if he used that 12-string mandolin.

Except Barney's instrument has to be tuned precisely like a 12-string guitar because we can hear him tuning and playing notes lower than an instrument tuned to play the intro in open position could handle.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

That being said, the instrument is absolutely the one in the photo.  No question any more.

[Emily]

I'm sure everyone is sick to death of this thread by now...which is why no new replies have been posted for days...but I'm still hoping for replies to questions I had posed to two of the contributors:

Emily - have you had a chance to decide if you think the "mystery sound" at 1:58 and at 2:06 in the song possibly sounds more like clarinet than alto flute?

guitarfool2000 - where was it determined unequivocally that Barney Kessel played a Gibson hybrid guitar-mandolin rather than a Danelectro Bellzouki on WIBN? It that was in a separate thread, I've been unable to find it with the search function, and would very much like to see it.

Thanks in advance to both of you!  

Sorry c-man, you're right that I hadn't been in this thread for a bit.
I'm wondering if the bits I'm focusing on are the same bits other people are focusing on, because I don't hear a change at 1:58 or at 2:06.
I hear, in my mono version:
-starting at 1:49, a sax-like, but I believe clarinet, doing a four measure line that, after a few string plucks, bends up high then ends at 1:53.
-then starting at 1:53, I hear a flute with a much breathier "sigh" sound than one usually gets with a clarinet. The flute is doing the repeated line that I think Guitarfool2002's second video focuses on.
-at 2:10 the clarinet repeats.
That's what I think I hear.
?

Edited to add: If there's reason to think those two parts are played by the same instrument, it would be a clarinet - a very dexterous clarinet player might be able to make the flutey sound, where no flute player could make the clarinety sound.

[Andrew G. Doe]

this thread, which started off so strange, has become more interesting as it hangs on and on, and morphs into something else entirely.

As frustrating and flat out inane as this thread has been, it's light years preferable to the ludicrous excrement peddled on any topic polluted by the presence of The Rockster. 

[Scott]

Consider Barney's Gibson mandolin - He could play the WIBN intro arpeggios at the 2nd fret, basically open position, if he used that 12-string mandolin.

I absolutely have considered this mandolin - for years I was sure it was this instrument, but then you guys had me reconsider.  I agree that the instrument used on WIBN was tuned in the guitar register as you can hear some open E's and G's in the outtakes and they are not up an octave.  While I think Barney's mandolin might appear to be a bit larger than a standard mandolin scale, it's still considerably shorter than a guitar scale, which would lead to very slack strings if tuned in the guitar register (which could be pulled out of tune easily).  Also Barney has some trouble playing the higher notes cleanly which could also indicate a scale-length he wasn't used to.

Question for GF and H and C-man and anyone else: are you sure the mic stand in the foreground is meant for this instrument?  The lower portion we see could just be the elbow, as if the top of the stand is pointing somewhere high.  The mic stand is out of focus, maybe the photog used a large aperture (making the focal plane very narrow) or maybe it's considerably closer than we think.

Scott

[guitarfool2002]

That mic stand placement is a mystery, I wish the photo was done in a wider angle so we could see more! It could be a mic for Barney's instrument, or perhaps it was pointed at an amp next to Barney or even a musician sitting next to Barney? It's both blurry and cropped, so I just can't tell for sure and it could be any possibility. One element of Barney's "hybrid" Gibson in that photo is he could play it and have it mic'ed as a pure acoustic for the traditional mandolin sounds, or if it were outfitted with a pickup, he could hit those sounds too if he plugged in for other uses.

I agree about Barney seeming to fluff some of those notes, it stuck in my mind too because Barney was without question a virtuoso guitarist with impeccable touch and technique, yet he seems to be fretting out some of those notes as he's working out the intro between takes. It would definitely suggest a possible issue with the neck or the scale of the instrument. When you hear Barney on those Poll Winner or Julie London albums, he's near-flawless 99% of the time.

It's also funny in a way to see other session photos from this era at Gold Star, Western, etc...they have 4 guitarists on metal chairs lined up side by side with their amps lined up side by side, then acoustic players mic'ed up sitting close by...with little or no baffling. Leakage back then was part of the magic, compared to what would be done later in terms or baffling and isolating parts to ridiculous degrees.