Backing Vox 'Let's go away...'

[guitarfool2002]

flute vid not available - guitarfool are you in the USA..?

yes

[guitarfool2002]

This is an example of an alto flute played by a virtuoso session woodwind player, Ronny Lang, improvising a solo on Henry Mancini's album "More Music From Peter Gunn". Lang takes the alto flute through its lower to mid range up to the higher notes, so in one solo you get a sense of where the alto's range could go. Mancini was one arranger who used the entire flute family often, and examples of how to both write for and play a flute, from alto to piccolo, can be heard in Mancini's charts.

Click on the link here, if there is no YouTube ad you'll be right at Lang's alto flute solo:

https://youtu.be/5-9CAxE6e2c?t=1m54s

Those outside the US who cannot see the video, try this link instead:

https://youtu.be/f7khjaHbh-c?t=1m53s

[mike moseley]

still no - I'll do a search for UK flute hunters

[guitarfool2002]

Yeah, I can't help beyond posting two different links if it's being blocked outside the US. Look up the track "Goofin At The Coffee House" from Mancini's "More Music From Peter Gunn" and listen to the alto flute solo.

[mike moseley]

ok - got to dash now but will later

Yeah, I can't help beyond posting two different links if it's being blocked outside the US. Look up the track "Goofin At The Coffee House" from Mancini's "More Music From Peter Gunn" and listen to the alto flute solo.

[Emily]

bending on alto flute at the beginning of this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVe9QGGVqu0

And Guitarfool2002, I love that Mancini you posted. Thank you!

[c-man]

Aeijtzsche - I'm wondering if it's not a clarinet rather than some kind of flute? The part at 1:58 and again at 2:06 has qualities that I would call "saxophone-like". A clarinet has qualities of both alto flute and saxophone...

Well here's a question for you:  I have not seen the actual AFM sheet for the OD, just the list of people on it--and I've seen a list with Steve Douglas on it and a list without him on it.  Jules Jacob seems like a jack-of-all trades woodwinds kind of guy (he played on some Zappa records).  If both of them are on there, I would concede that maybe Steve is playing flute and Jules is playing a clarinet in unison.  I agree that there's a reedy cast to it, but I still hear, fundamentally, a flute.

I believe Jules Jacobs is playing oboe on the LGAFA overdub...Brian mentions oboe as one of the instruments in that very detailed 1967 description of the ensemble he utilized for this piece of music (he doesn't mention flute, but he doesn't mention clarinet either). I can hear the oboe in the overdub playing the new line which sits on top of the horn line from the basic track. Jacobs frequently played oboe, so I imagine he played it here. Steve Douglas IS on the overdub AFM contract (he was the session leader), and I think he's playing the mystery instrument: he frequently played sax, flute, and clarinet for Brian. So the two woodwinds on the overdub are not playing in unison at all.

[mike moseley]

Well I can hear oboe even less than I can hear flute on the section - However I'm prepared to believe it is if that's what it is  I'm going to check out some oboe stuff on youtube.

I suppose I could use some recordings and try to replicate the effect but I don't think it would come  to much - I think the room will have had a lot to do with it.

Aeijtzsche - I'm wondering if it's not a clarinet rather than some kind of flute? The part at 1:58 and again at 2:06 has qualities that I would call "saxophone-like". A clarinet has qualities of both alto flute and saxophone...

Well here's a question for you:  I have not seen the actual AFM sheet for the OD, just the list of people on it--and I've seen a list with Steve Douglas on it and a list without him on it.  Jules Jacob seems like a jack-of-all trades woodwinds kind of guy (he played on some Zappa records).  If both of them are on there, I would concede that maybe Steve is playing flute and Jules is playing a clarinet in unison.  I agree that there's a reedy cast to it, but I still hear, fundamentally, a flute.

I believe Jules Jacobs is playing oboe on the LGAFA overdub...Brian mentions oboe as one of the instruments in that very detailed 1967 description of the ensemble he utilized for this piece of music (he doesn't mention flute, but he doesn't mention clarinet either). I can hear the oboe in the overdub playing the new line which sits on top of the horn line from the basic track. Jacobs frequently played oboe, so I imagine he played it here. Steve Douglas IS on the overdub AFM contract (he was the session leader), and I think he's playing the mystery instrument: he frequently played sax, flute, and clarinet for Brian. So the two woodwinds on the overdub are not playing in unison at all.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I'm minded of a thread some years ago where a poster insisted that there was a few seconds of the original "God Only Knows" used in the video of Brian's rerecording for the Target CD. That thread went well past the point of screaming insanity too.

[mike moseley]

Don't read the thread.

We were told it was definitely a flute.  Now it might be an oboe.  Someone else thinks its strings. 

Some of us are obviously interested in trying to pin down exactly what is on the track.

Why do people keep jumping into threads they've got no interest in..?
 

I'm minded of a thread some years ago where a poster insisted that there was a few seconds of the original "God Only Knows" used in the video of Brian's rerecording for the Target CD. That thread went well past the point of screaming insanity too.

[mike moseley]

sorry double post - can mods delete this one..?

[Andrew G. Doe]

Don't read the thread.

We were told it was definitely a flute.  Now it might be an oboe.  Someone else thinks its strings. 

Some of us are obviously interested in trying to pin down exactly what is on the track.

Why do people keep jumping into threads they've got no interest in..?
 

I'm minded of a thread some years ago where a poster insisted that there was a few seconds of the original "God Only Knows" used in the video of Brian's rerecording for the Target CD. That thread went well past the point of screaming insanity too.

Because, originally, someone was 90% certain it was vocals, and when that was proven not to be the case, someone else claimed it was some instrument that's not actually on the overdub or AFM sheet.

[mike moseley]

Yeah it was me 90% sure and I'm still not convinced there isn't a voice in there - its definitely not been proved there isn't - but I'm not arguing for it any more, if its flutes its flutes.

You know that session logs aren't 100% reliable.

I'd love to hear the OD that H has heard although if its swimming in reverb with a few things going on it could still be difficult to define.

Don't read the thread.

We were told it was definitely a flute.  Now it might be an oboe.  Someone else thinks its strings. 

Some of us are obviously interested in trying to pin down exactly what is on the track.

Why do people keep jumping into threads they've got no interest in..?
 

I'm minded of a thread some years ago where a poster insisted that there was a few seconds of the original "God Only Knows" used in the video of Brian's rerecording for the Target CD. That thread went well past the point of screaming insanity too.

Because, originally, someone was 90% certain it was vocals, and when that was proven not to be the case, someone else claimed it was some instrument that's not actually on the overdub or AFM sheet.

[c-man]

The mystery sound is not an oboe - at this point, I'm convinced it's either alto flute or clarinet - Emily, as you are familiar with the characteristics of the alto flute, would you please do us a favor and listen to the section of LGAFA from 1:56 to 2:10 (this is the timecode from the stereo mix - I assume the mono is the same, or very very close to it). Starting at 1:56, we hear the mystery sound (as we have earlier in the song), then at 1:58 that same mystery instrument plays a line that sounds very similar (to me) to a saxophone (either alto or high tenor), so that's what makes me think it might possibly be a clarinet (an instrument which possesses sonic characteristics of both low flute and high saxophone). That phrase is repeated at 2:06. If you say an alto flute is capable of producing that sound, then it's a done deal in my mind, and I will officially consider it to be an alto flute until the end of time. Yes, that same instrument does have some "vocal-like" qualities here-and-there in this song, particularly when it enters at 1:22 and again at 1:56. There is a slight "d" plosive - I can hear it, no problem - but it's the effect of blowing into the woodwind, accentuated by the echo and possibly by a compressor. Of that I am convinced.

As for the oboe - that enters at 1:24, and is playing a line on top of the horn section's line. To understand what I'm talking about, first listen to the basic track (Track 21 of Disc One in the official Capitol Pet Sounds Sessions box set), starting at 1:24. You will notice that the top line you're used to hearing is absent - that is because it's played by the oboe on the string/woodwind overdub session. Now, if you listen to the stereo mix itself (Track 6 from the same disc), or the original mono mix, starting at 1:24, you can hear the oboe join the horn section, and at 1:28 it splits off into it's own top line, climbing higher than the horns. That part is the oboe - it is absent form the basic track mix on Track 21, but it is present on the final mix. It's much more "up front" than the mystery sound, and it's not submerged in echo as the mystery instrument is. Both the oboe and the alto flute/mystery instrument were added at the same overdub session as the 12-piece string section, and they occupy the same track as the string section. That is why they are not on the basic track (available in a stereo mix made up of three separate tracks - all recorded simultaneously during the basic track performance of January 18th- on Track 21), but yet they ARE on the final mix (the complete stereo mix of which is on Track 6, and which consists of all four tracks from the 4-track tape, including the string/woodwind overdub of January 19th).

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Aeijtzsche - I'm wondering if it's not a clarinet rather than some kind of flute? The part at 1:58 and again at 2:06 has qualities that I would call "saxophone-like". A clarinet has qualities of both alto flute and saxophone...

Well here's a question for you:  I have not seen the actual AFM sheet for the OD, just the list of people on it--and I've seen a list with Steve Douglas on it and a list without him on it.  Jules Jacob seems like a jack-of-all trades woodwinds kind of guy (he played on some Zappa records).  If both of them are on there, I would concede that maybe Steve is playing flute and Jules is playing a clarinet in unison.  I agree that there's a reedy cast to it, but I still hear, fundamentally, a flute.

I believe Jules Jacobs is playing oboe on the LGAFA overdub...Brian mentions oboe as one of the instruments in that very detailed 1967 description of the ensemble he utilized for this piece of music (he doesn't mention flute, but he doesn't mention clarinet either). I can hear the oboe in the overdub playing the new line which sits on top of the horn line from the basic track. Jacobs frequently played oboe, so I imagine he played it here. Steve Douglas IS on the overdub AFM contract (he was the session leader), and I think he's playing the mystery instrument: he frequently played sax, flute, and clarinet for Brian. So the two woodwinds on the overdub are not playing in unison at all.

Great.  Thanks.

[guitarfool2002]

The mystery sound is not an oboe - at this point, I'm convinced it's either alto flute or clarinet - Emily, as you are familiar with the characteristics of the alto flute, would you please do us a favor and listen to the section of LGAFA from 1:56 to 2:10 (this is the timecode from the stereo mix - I assume the mono is the same, or very very close to it). Starting at 1:56, we hear the mystery sound (as we have earlier in the song), then at 1:58 that same mystery instrument plays a line that sounds very similar (to me) to a saxophone (either alto or high tenor), so that's what makes me think it might possibly be a clarinet (an instrument which possesses sonic characteristics of both low flute and high saxophone). That phrase is repeated at 2:06. If you say an alto flute is capable of producing that sound, then it's a done deal in my mind, and I will officially consider it to be an alto flute until the end of time. Yes, that same instrument does have some "vocal-like" qualities here-and-there in this song, particularly when it enters at 1:22 and again at 1:56. There is a slight "d" plosive - I can hear it, no problem - but it's the effect of blowing into the woodwind, accentuated by the echo and possibly by a compressor. Of that I am convinced.

I've already edited/looped and posted the first example here for those interested:

OK - In the interest of having everyone's ears listening to the same thing, and getting more ears on the case and letting those ears be the judge, here are the two most prominent examples of the sounds Mike M. has been posting about. I did some quick edits and repeated each segment 5 times, then put them up on YouTube.

First one is "LGA", the pitch-bending/vibrato heard at 1:22 on the original:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRqRUSD_ebs

Second is "LGA 2", from approx. 1:54 on the original

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPcPw20AEZE




Commentary: I'm doubting my own ears on the first LGA. There is a pitch bend or waver up and down that a flute or most double or single reed woodwinds would not do quite that way, but which that pitch-bent vibes technique could produce. There is a specific modulation and waver in that sound which is unique and unusual. I just don't know at this point.

LGA2: I hear a combination of woodwinds playing in unison, several instruments combining to create that "new" timbre...I hear what could be an alto flute combined with a clarinet played in its lower register, or even an upper register of a bass clarinet. (The reason I put that photo of Jay Migliori in the video is because in that same film, he's shown with a bass clarinet at that particular GV session)

Let your ears be the judge.

The alto flute video that Emily posted shows a portamento bend of the note downward several steps and the technique related to doing so. The sound Mike originally keyed in on is not that kind of a bend, it's a slight modulation of the pitch up and down, like a guitar playing a wide finger vibrato but with an even more unusual modulation technique. It is possible to "bend" a flute's note up and down but it does not produce quite the same characteristic as heard on the video "LGA" above.

I thought it may be a slapback or echo residue as well, but with that fast of a delay time (the original attack versus the echo'ed sound coming back) there wouldn't be that pitch wavering. And in order to trigger that echo to that extent, the note would probably have to have a hard attack (like popping a "p" vocally) rather than a smooth attack.

This is why I was questioning it too - It's a very unusual sound or effect to be coming from a flute...not that it isn't, but it's unexpected to hear an alto flute play it.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Yeah it was me 90% sure and I'm still not convinced there isn't a voice in there - its definitely not been proved there isn't

It's been proved to the extent that, I dunno, relativity has been proved.

You know that session logs aren't 100% reliable.

You keep saying this but I've found them to be remarkably accurate, which really is not surprising considering being on there facilitated getting paid for services rendered.

I'd love to hear the OD that H has heard although if its swimming in reverb with a few things going on it could still be difficult to define.

If you can't tell that the overdub is utterly awash in reverb without hearing it isolated...well, that might explain why you think the Double Rock Baptist Choir is on there...

[mike moseley]

That's some pretty impressive analyzing sir   I wish we could hear the ODs on their own.

I'd have a go at mimicking the sound but I've only got Garageband at home, its too crude.

The mystery sound is not an oboe - at this point, I'm convinced it's either alto flute or clarinet - Emily, as you are familiar with the characteristics of the alto flute, would you please do us a favor and listen to the section of LGAFA from 1:56 to 2:10 (this is the timecode from the stereo mix - I assume the mono is the same, or very very close to it). Starting at 1:56, we hear the mystery sound (as we have earlier in the song), then at 1:58 that same mystery instrument plays a line that sounds very similar (to me) to a saxophone (either alto or high tenor), so that's what makes me think it might possibly be a clarinet (an instrument which possesses sonic characteristics of both low flute and high saxophone). That phrase is repeated at 2:06. If you say an alto flute is capable of producing that sound, then it's a done deal in my mind, and I will officially consider it to be an alto flute until the end of time. Yes, that same instrument does have some "vocal-like" qualities here-and-there in this song, particularly when it enters at 1:22 and again at 1:56. There is a slight "d" plosive - I can hear it, no problem - but it's the effect of blowing into the woodwind, accentuated by the echo and possibly by a compressor. Of that I am convinced.

As for the oboe - that enters at 1:24, and is playing a line on top of the horn line. To understand what I'm talking about, first listen to the basic track (Track 21 of Disc One in the official Capitol Pet Sounds Sessions box set), starting at 1:24. You will notice that the top line you're used to hearing is absent - that is because it's played by the oboe on the string/woodwind overdub session. Now, if you listen to the stereo mix itself (Track 6 from the same disc), or the original mono mix, starting at 1:24, you can hear the oboe join the horn section, and at 1:28 it splits off into it's own top line, climbing higher than the horns. That part is the oboe - it is absent form the basic track mix on Track 21, but it is present on the final mix. It's much more "up front" than the mystery sound, and it's not submerged in echo as the mystery instrument is.

[guitarfool2002]

The later "mystery" after 1:50 I don't think was in doubt after a certain point, it sounds like alto flute/woodwind and to me always did. reference video above "LGA2". It's the other one that's the mystery. And no, there are not vocals audible.

[mike moseley]

OK H I may sound pedantic to you but its not for the sake of it.

In these kinds of discussions I've seen it repeated over and over again that logs aren't 100% reliable.  Someone could be booked but dropped out of the arrangement - I'm not saying that happened here but its an obvious thing that could happen, no mystery.

Sorry but it hasn't been proved to me that there isn't a vox or some form of vocalizing on there.  I've gone from 90% sure to like 5% sure so I am definitely listening with great interest to what you say.

Yes yes I can hear all the reverb on the OD but hearing it alone would be ideal.

Yeah it was me 90% sure and I'm still not convinced there isn't a voice in there - its definitely not been proved there isn't

It's been proved to the extent that, I dunno, relativity has been proved.

You know that session logs aren't 100% reliable.

You keep saying this but I've found them to be remarkably accurate, which really is not surprising considering being on there facilitated getting paid for services rendered.

I'd love to hear the OD that H has heard although if its swimming in reverb with a few things going on it could still be difficult to define.

If you can't tell that the overdub is utterly awash in reverb without hearing it isolated...well, that might explain why you think the Double Rock Baptist Choir is on there...

[Emily]

The mystery sound is not an oboe - at this point, I'm convinced it's either alto flute or clarinet - Emily, as you are familiar with the characteristics of the alto flute, would you please do us a favor and listen to the section of LGAFA from 1:56 to 2:10 (this is the timecode from the stereo mix - I assume the mono is the same, or very very close to it). Starting at 1:56, we hear the mystery sound (as we have earlier in the song), then at 1:58 that same mystery instrument plays a line that sounds very similar (to me) to a saxophone (either alto or high tenor), so that's what makes me think it might possibly be a clarinet (an instrument which possesses sonic characteristics of both low flute and high saxophone). That phrase is repeated at 2:06. If you say an alto flute is capable of producing that sound, then it's a done deal in my mind, and I will officially consider it to be an alto flute until the end of time. Yes, that same instrument does have some "vocal-like" qualities here-and-there in this song, particularly when it enters at 1:22 and again at 1:56. There is a slight "d" plosive - I can hear it, no problem - but it's the effect of blowing into the woodwind, accentuated by the echo and possibly by a compressor. Of that I am convinced.

I've already edited/looped and posted the first example here for those interested:

OK - In the interest of having everyone's ears listening to the same thing, and getting more ears on the case and letting those ears be the judge, here are the two most prominent examples of the sounds Mike M. has been posting about. I did some quick edits and repeated each segment 5 times, then put them up on YouTube.

First one is "LGA", the pitch-bending/vibrato heard at 1:22 on the original:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRqRUSD_ebs

Second is "LGA 2", from approx. 1:54 on the original

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPcPw20AEZE




Commentary: I'm doubting my own ears on the first LGA. There is a pitch bend or waver up and down that a flute or most double or single reed woodwinds would not do quite that way, but which that pitch-bent vibes technique could produce. There is a specific modulation and waver in that sound which is unique and unusual. I just don't know at this point.

LGA2: I hear a combination of woodwinds playing in unison, several instruments combining to create that "new" timbre...I hear what could be an alto flute combined with a clarinet played in its lower register, or even an upper register of a bass clarinet. (The reason I put that photo of Jay Migliori in the video is because in that same film, he's shown with a bass clarinet at that particular GV session)

Let your ears be the judge.

The alto flute video that Emily posted shows a portamento bend of the note downward several steps and the technique related to doing so. The sound Mike originally keyed in on is not that kind of a bend, it's a slight modulation of the pitch up and down, like a guitar playing a wide finger vibrato but with an even more unusual modulation technique. It is possible to "bend" a flute's note up and down but it does not produce quite the same characteristic as heard on the video "LGA" above.

I thought it may be a slapback or echo residue as well, but with that fast of a delay time (the original attack versus the echo'ed sound coming back) there wouldn't be that pitch wavering. And in order to trigger that echo to that extent, the note would probably have to have a hard attack (like popping a "p" vocally) rather than a smooth attack.

This is why I was questioning it too - It's a very unusual sound or effect to be coming from a flute...not that it isn't, but it's unexpected to hear an alto flute play it.

On my phone, so listening is not top notch at this point (neither is posting).
I agree the video is not the same sort of bend; I was just posting it to show that flutes are more flexible than one might think. I think the sound at the end was done in the way I described above. Which I can come close to doing even on a bass recorder. But when I get home I will listen more closely to consider a clarinet. I don't know how to describe it in words, but I'm assuming we're talking about the extended through note with the single warble in the middle that's repeated on GF2002's 2nd video. On the earlier one is the 'sigh' which is more of a straightforward, but very slight, bend, right?

[guitarfool2002]

For me I think the second one heard in "LGA2" is pretty cut-and-dry at this point. It's the one heard in my "LGA" (first video) with the pitch wavering as it does and how it does. That is not an oboe, and it's seemingly not the kind of pitch bend and waver you'd hear on demand from an alto flute.

EDIT:
This one - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRqRUSD_ebs

[Emily]

For me I think the second one heard in "LGA2" is pretty cut-and-dry at this point. It's the one heard in my "LGA" (first video) with the pitch wavering as it does and how it does. That is a not oboe, and it's seemingly not the kind of pitch bend and waver you'd hear on demand from an alto flute.

EDIT:
This one - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRqRUSD_ebs

I can't hear well what it's doing after the first measure, just before and after the horns (or whatever - uh oh) come in, but the first measure sounds like bending with the breath and vey quick, light note tapping.

[guitarfool2002]

For me I think the second one heard in "LGA2" is pretty cut-and-dry at this point. It's the one heard in my "LGA" (first video) with the pitch wavering as it does and how it does. That is a not oboe, and it's seemingly not the kind of pitch bend and waver you'd hear on demand from an alto flute.

EDIT:
This one - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRqRUSD_ebs

I can't hear well what it's doing after the first measure, just before and after the horns (or whatever - uh oh) come in, but the first measure sounds like bending with the breath and vey quick, light note tapping.

You hear note tapping? I'll listen for it! I was trying to zero in on the key sound, like a light trill effect to explain the pitch, but I still hear it as more of a portamento type bend up and down, more smooth than if it were done with the keys.

[guitarfool2002]

I'd also consider in all seriousness sharing that video "LGA" with some musician friends, preferably flautists or arrangers/composers who have written for flute, and ask them what they think that initial sound heard in the video could be. If I remove myself from it I probably wouldn't say "alto flute" as the first impression.