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Author Topic: Backing Vox 'Let's go away...'  (Read 39892 times)
Nile
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« Reply #175 on: March 24, 2016, 07:48:35 AM »

I think we had enough of this!
Let's get back to Rocky topic Grin
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mike moseley
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« Reply #176 on: March 24, 2016, 07:51:01 AM »

Threads are definitely a very laborious way of discussing this type of thing.

Sat round a table and armed with audio it would be much quicker to resolve.


I think we had enough of this!
Let's get back to Rocky topic Grin
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Emily
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« Reply #177 on: March 24, 2016, 08:37:31 AM »

Threads are definitely a very laborious way of discussing this type of thing.

Sat round a table and armed with audio it would be much quicker to resolve.


I think we had enough of this!
Let's get back to Rocky topic Grin
I doubt it, honestly. I think that, with more or less reason, people have different opinions here and face-to-face or not, it doesn't seem to be changing.
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mike moseley
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« Reply #178 on: March 24, 2016, 08:45:05 AM »

Well it would depend on the audio available I think.  If I could hear the end of the backing track and there's no vibes at all on it then I'd accept it and everyone would see that and that would be the end of that small disagreement  Smiley

Threads are definitely a very laborious way of discussing this type of thing.

Sat round a table and armed with audio it would be much quicker to resolve.


I think we had enough of this!
Let's get back to Rocky topic Grin
I doubt it, honestly. I think that, with more or less reason, people have different opinions here and face-to-face or not, it doesn't seem to be changing.
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Andrew G. Doe
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« Reply #179 on: March 24, 2016, 08:49:54 AM »

Not on the pad/backing track..?  I haven't got my box set so I can't check - if you've checked the backing track and they aren't there then just say so.

I'm not saying I can hear them play a melody there.


You may hear vibes. That doesn't alter the fact that they're simply not there.

Of course there are vibes on the basic track... but, as Craig has pointed out so many times, not on the overdub you're talking about. He's told you what it is. The only problem is, he's not telling you what you want to hear, so you're  running it into the ground.

Bottom line ? Doesn't matter. It being vibes won't cure cancer or bring back 30-odd Belgiansi from the dead.
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Andrew G. Doe
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« Reply #180 on: March 24, 2016, 08:51:59 AM »

Threads are definitely a very laborious way of discussing this type of thing.

Sat round a table and armed with audio it would be much quicker to resolve.


I think we had enough of this!
Let's get back to Rocky topic Grin

Or you could believe the leading sessions researcher, who has listened to the discrete tracks.
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mike moseley
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« Reply #181 on: March 24, 2016, 09:21:05 AM »

I'm talking about the basic track.  I'd like to listen to it regardless of this discussion - can you email it to me..?

I own the box set but haven't got it handy.

Or can anyone else post it..?  There's a chunk of the session on youtube but only about 30 odd seconds.


Not on the pad/backing track..?  I haven't got my box set so I can't check - if you've checked the backing track and they aren't there then just say so.

I'm not saying I can hear them play a melody there.


You may hear vibes. That doesn't alter the fact that they're simply not there.

Of course there are vibes on the basic track... but, as Craig has pointed out so many times, not on the overdub you're talking about. He's told you what it is. The only problem is, he's not telling you what you want to hear, so you're  running it into the ground.

Bottom line ? Doesn't matter. It being vibes won't cure cancer or bring back 30-odd Belgiansi from the dead.
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bringahorseinhere?
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« Reply #182 on: March 24, 2016, 05:18:23 PM »

I can email you the mp3's from the box, pm me with your email.
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« Reply #183 on: March 25, 2016, 04:30:49 AM »

Aeijtzsche - I'm wondering if it's not a clarinet rather than some kind of flute? The part at 1:58 and again at 2:06 has qualities that I would call "saxophone-like". A clarinet has qualities of both alto flute and saxophone...
« Last Edit: March 25, 2016, 04:32:36 AM by c-man » Logged
mike moseley
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« Reply #184 on: March 25, 2016, 05:18:34 AM »

I think being able to hear the ODs would be very revealing.

I thought I could hear snatches of 'the voice' on the basic track but I think its just my brain putting it in because its used to hearing it there.

Definitely no vibes on the end section track-only from the box set.


Aeijtzsche - I'm wondering if it's not a clarinet rather than some kind of flute? The part at 1:58 and again at 2:06 has qualities that I would call "saxophone-like". A clarinet has qualities of both alto flute and saxophone...
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Joshilyn Hoisington
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« Reply #185 on: March 25, 2016, 06:06:54 AM »

Aeijtzsche - I'm wondering if it's not a clarinet rather than some kind of flute? The part at 1:58 and again at 2:06 has qualities that I would call "saxophone-like". A clarinet has qualities of both alto flute and saxophone...

Well here's a question for you:  I have not seen the actual AFM sheet for the OD, just the list of people on it--and I've seen a list with Steve Douglas on it and a list without him on it.  Jules Jacob seems like a jack-of-all trades woodwinds kind of guy (he played on some Zappa records).  If both of them are on there, I would concede that maybe Steve is playing flute and Jules is playing a clarinet in unison.  I agree that there's a reedy cast to it, but I still hear, fundamentally, a flute.
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mike moseley
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« Reply #186 on: March 25, 2016, 06:28:38 AM »

I really wish we could all sit round a table and play the track - preferably with a flute there so H could demo what he means.  I've tried and tried to hear flutes but what I'm hearing sounds like vibes and a voice in unison and always has since I first heard it in mono in 1988.  I'm not arguing that's what it is though  3D

I had a good look through youtube trying to find flutes doing something similar but couldn't.  There must be something out there though.


Aeijtzsche - I'm wondering if it's not a clarinet rather than some kind of flute? The part at 1:58 and again at 2:06 has qualities that I would call "saxophone-like". A clarinet has qualities of both alto flute and saxophone...

Well here's a question for you:  I have not seen the actual AFM sheet for the OD, just the list of people on it--and I've seen a list with Steve Douglas on it and a list without him on it.  Jules Jacob seems like a jack-of-all trades woodwinds kind of guy (he played on some Zappa records).  If both of them are on there, I would concede that maybe Steve is playing flute and Jules is playing a clarinet in unison.  I agree that there's a reedy cast to it, but I still hear, fundamentally, a flute.
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« Reply #187 on: March 25, 2016, 08:29:00 AM »

I really wish we could all sit round a table and play the track - preferably with a flute there so H could demo what he means. 

What she means.
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mike moseley
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« Reply #188 on: March 25, 2016, 08:35:25 AM »

OK.

Can you think of any examples on youtube..?  I'm all ears. I'd love to hear flutes doing that kind of sound.
 

I really wish we could all sit round a table and play the track - preferably with a flute there so H could demo what he means.  

What she means.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2016, 08:46:50 AM by mike moseley » Logged
guitarfool2002
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« Reply #189 on: March 25, 2016, 08:50:18 AM »

Mike M - Watch this video (this is the stereo remaster), and for my own sake, and to know exactly what to listen for, post the exact track times where you're hearing the sounds and would like to get other ears on it. Since this is stereo, maybe list which channel the specific sounds are heard as well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbAA4_B8k0I

With so many versions and so I'm not grabbing the wrong version, let's use this one as a reference for now, then we can build on it and post others more specific.
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mike moseley
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« Reply #190 on: March 25, 2016, 09:27:33 AM »

Yeah sure - the 'sighs are at 0:57 and 1:22 - much clearer at 1:22 which is the one my producer buddy thinks is a pitch-bending vibraphone.

The 'voice' comes in at 1:54 and continues to fade - the 'voice' to me has a similar sound to the 'sighs' which would make sense if its all flutes as H thinks.

I'm not strongly arguing for what it is - I can't hear any flute in those 3 places though and neither can my producer buddy.  He thinks there are vibes on the end section.  However on the mix of the pad I heard today there aren't any.  Could be on the OD even though not logged.

I don't think its impossible some BVs are on there whether logged or not (or even possibly some kind of vocalizing through an instrument at the tracking) but I'm not arguing for it.  If its flutes its flutes.



Mike M - Watch this video (this is the stereo remaster), and for my own sake, and to know exactly what to listen for, post the exact track times where you're hearing the sounds and would like to get other ears on it. Since this is stereo, maybe list which channel the specific sounds are heard as well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbAA4_B8k0I

With so many versions and so I'm not grabbing the wrong version, let's use this one as a reference for now, then we can build on it and post others more specific.
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mike moseley
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« Reply #191 on: March 25, 2016, 09:30:17 AM »

and to identify it precisely (ish) my sketch of the 'voice' part - this is programmed by me and is just a flute and reverb/algorithm thing doubled

https://soundcloud.com/spooky-music

'lets go'
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guitarfool2002
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« Reply #192 on: March 25, 2016, 10:49:24 AM »

OK - In the interest of having everyone's ears listening to the same thing, and getting more ears on the case and letting those ears be the judge, here are the two most prominent examples of the sounds Mike M. has been posting about. I did some quick edits and repeated each segment 5 times, then put them up on YouTube.

First one is "LGA", the pitch-bending/vibrato heard at 1:22 on the original:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRqRUSD_ebs

Second is "LGA 2", from approx. 1:54 on the original

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPcPw20AEZE




Commentary: I'm doubting my own ears on the first LGA. There is a pitch bend or waver up and down that a flute or most double or single reed woodwinds would not do quite that way, but which that pitch-bent vibes technique could produce. There is a specific modulation and waver in that sound which is unique and unusual. I just don't know at this point.

LGA2: I hear a combination of woodwinds playing in unison, several instruments combining to create that "new" timbre...I hear what could be an alto flute combined with a clarinet played in its lower register, or even an upper register of a bass clarinet. (The reason I put that photo of Jay Migliori in the video is because in that same film, he's shown with a bass clarinet at that particular GV session)

Let your ears be the judge.
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mike moseley
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« Reply #193 on: March 25, 2016, 11:10:20 AM »

superb Smiley

in lga2 I can hear what sounds to me like a vibes strike at 0:12 - could be an artifact

a few of you are hearing flutes so there must be a flute range I've never heard before - if so I've learned something Smiley



OK - In the interest of having everyone's ears listening to the same thing, and getting more ears on the case and letting those ears be the judge, here are the two most prominent examples of the sounds Mike M. has been posting about. I did some quick edits and repeated each segment 5 times, then put them up on YouTube.

First one is "LGA", the pitch-bending/vibrato heard at 1:22 on the original:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRqRUSD_ebs

Second is "LGA 2", from approx. 1:54 on the original

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPcPw20AEZE




Commentary: I'm doubting my own ears on the first LGA. There is a pitch bend or waver up and down that a flute or most double or single reed woodwinds would not do quite that way, but which that pitch-bent vibes technique could produce. There is a specific modulation and waver in that sound which is unique and unusual. I just don't know at this point.

LGA2: I hear a combination of woodwinds playing in unison, several instruments combining to create that "new" timbre...I hear what could be an alto flute combined with a clarinet played in its lower register, or even an upper register of a bass clarinet. (The reason I put that photo of Jay Migliori in the video is because in that same film, he's shown with a bass clarinet at that particular GV session)

Let your ears be the judge.
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Bill M
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« Reply #194 on: March 25, 2016, 11:13:09 AM »

OK - In the interest of having everyone's ears listening to the same thing, and getting more ears on the case and letting those ears be the judge, here are the two most prominent examples of the sounds Mike M. has been posting about. I did some quick edits and repeated each segment 5 times, then put them up on YouTube.

First one is "LGA", the pitch-bending/vibrato heard at 1:22 on the original:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRqRUSD_ebs

Second is "LGA 2", from approx. 1:54 on the original

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPcPw20AEZE




Commentary: I'm doubting my own ears on the first LGA. There is a pitch bend or waver up and down that a flute or most double or single reed woodwinds would not do quite that way, but which that pitch-bent vibes technique could produce. There is a specific modulation and waver in that sound which is unique and unusual. I just don't know at this point.

LGA2: I hear a combination of woodwinds playing in unison, several instruments combining to create that "new" timbre...I hear what could be an alto flute combined with a clarinet played in its lower register, or even an upper register of a bass clarinet. (The reason I put that photo of Jay Migliori in the video is because in that same film, he's shown with a bass clarinet at that particular GV session)

Let your ears be the judge.

My ears have judged that  a flute cannot play in that register, but an alto flute can.
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Emily
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« Reply #195 on: March 25, 2016, 11:30:16 AM »

As a (just school-level) flute player, it still sounds like flute to me. I think that the 'bend' in the 'sigh' can be done through breath modulation plus a quickly tapped note warble. I agree there's an alto flute involved in the end bit.
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mike moseley
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« Reply #196 on: March 25, 2016, 11:31:42 AM »

in lga2 I'm sure I can hear bending though - I think that's partly why I'm not hearing it as a flute

I don't think its impossible there's something in there bending..?

OK - In the interest of having everyone's ears listening to the same thing, and getting more ears on the case and letting those ears be the judge, here are the two most prominent examples of the sounds Mike M. has been posting about. I did some quick edits and repeated each segment 5 times, then put them up on YouTube.

First one is "LGA", the pitch-bending/vibrato heard at 1:22 on the original:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRqRUSD_ebs

Second is "LGA 2", from approx. 1:54 on the original

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPcPw20AEZE




Commentary: I'm doubting my own ears on the first LGA. There is a pitch bend or waver up and down that a flute or most double or single reed woodwinds would not do quite that way, but which that pitch-bent vibes technique could produce. There is a specific modulation and waver in that sound which is unique and unusual. I just don't know at this point.

LGA2: I hear a combination of woodwinds playing in unison, several instruments combining to create that "new" timbre...I hear what could be an alto flute combined with a clarinet played in its lower register, or even an upper register of a bass clarinet. (The reason I put that photo of Jay Migliori in the video is because in that same film, he's shown with a bass clarinet at that particular GV session)

Let your ears be the judge.

My ears have judged that  a flute cannot play in that register, but an alto flute can.
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Emily
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« Reply #197 on: March 25, 2016, 11:35:51 AM »

I'm pretty confident the 'bend' in lga2 is another quickly tapped warble with a single breath played through on the flute.
It has that breathiness that vibes don't have. I definitely feel it's a wind instrument and of the wind instruments its timbre seems most like a flute.
Edited to correct auto-corrections.
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guitarfool2002
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« Reply #198 on: March 25, 2016, 11:41:16 AM »

This is an example of an alto flute played by a virtuoso session woodwind player, Ronny Lang, improvising a solo on Henry Mancini's album "More Music From Peter Gunn". Lang takes the alto flute through its lower to mid range up to the higher notes, so in one solo you get a sense of where the alto's range could go. Mancini was one arranger who used the entire flute family often, and examples of how to both write for and play a flute, from alto to piccolo, can be heard in Mancini's charts.

Click on the link here, if there is no YouTube ad you'll be right at Lang's alto flute solo:

https://youtu.be/5-9CAxE6e2c?t=1m54s
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mike moseley
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« Reply #199 on: March 25, 2016, 11:47:18 AM »

flute vid not available - guitarfool are you in the USA..?
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